[23:55] 21<Keshi>21 hammond: Who is this Boilerplate_ guy?
[23:55] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Me
[23:55] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Well I'm just hanging around here
[23:55] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Yeah… you spying?
[23:55] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Yep
[23:56] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Fair enough, who do you work for?
[23:56] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I work for no one
[23:56] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: We could like double the salary… and you could also not tell them… so you could be earning like three times more...
[23:57] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: You just need to report the details back here… instead of vice versa and feed them some misinformation.
[23:57] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Fair enough, no deal then I guess.
[23:57] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I guess your feeling paranoid
[23:58] 18<hammond> lol
[23:58] 18<hammond> I think he is from ##marism Keshi
[23:58] 18<Keshi> Not really, no… I kind of anomic… I finished my last exam yesterday and now feel like life is directionless or something… mind you I wont be saying too much about it because you are probably spying.
[23:58] 18<hammond> so he is one of your spies actally Keshi
[23:58] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Paranoia will Detroy ya
[23:59] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Yep I'm from ##Marxism
[23:59] 18<Keshi> hammond: Oh, fair enough… I liked that channel, forget to join it nowadays.
[23:59] 18<hammond> he is a soviet/stalinist mole.
[23:59] 18<Keshi> hammond: Hmm… I wonder if there is a green politics channel.  I guess I am pretty Marxist though…
[23:59] 31<Boilerplate_>30 No
[00:00] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I do buy into Marxism though which is basically political science
[00:00] 31<Boilerplate_>30 of how the capitalist system works and the better alternative if the workers control the means of production
[00:00] 18<hammond> either everything or nothing man.
[00:00] 18<Keshi> Some guy in ##economics once said "there is a Marxist in ##economics" and then all these guys came in and started arguing with me that there was not wealth polarisation or something...
[00:01] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Stalin ruined Soclialism/Communism's reputation
[00:02] 18<hammond> "right"
[00:02] 18<hammond> somehow I dont buy that.
[00:02] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Of course Trotsky may have done things a bit better though
[00:02] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Well actually, it was Lenin that ruined Marxism actually
[00:03] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Our national student union here is Trotskyist… it is the biggest Trotskyist organisation in Australia even...
[00:03] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Since he didn't get the message that the revolution was supposed to take place in industral societies
[00:03] 18<hammond> well there is no proof, I've not delved deep into it, but on the surface it seems obvious that marxism/communism brings the worst out of men.
[00:03] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: The Liberal Party's young Liberals (basically, sons of lawyers, doctors and such who say they want to go to England) always want to disaffiliate the local student union from it.
[00:05] 18<Keshi> hammond: Yeah, Marx's ideas like the "dictatorship of the proletariat" are pretty crude.
[00:06] 31<Boilerplate_>30 well developed societies actually. Basically Communism/Socialism is basically the industralized version of a Hunter/Gatherer/Scavenger societies before we went Agricultural which is where property came into being and everything went down hill since then.
[00:06] 18<hammond> I never wanted to read that book, because it seemed hypnotic, something  for young scholars to dig in, instead I read Wealth of the Nation, The Prince, and some Militairy books.
[00:07] 18<hammond> lol I also read some old books who only promoted Monopolism.
[00:07] 18<Keshi> hammond: I think a degree of conservatism is necessary because people dislike change.  Radical upheavals just cause resent.  The type of socialism that was successful in the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth of Nations was "Fabian".  Fabius was a Roman general famous for wearing down the enemy.  British and Commonwealth labor parties and continental Europe social democrats, I think, basically respect people's intolerance of change.
[00:08] 18<hammond> I see.
[00:08] 18<Keshi> hammond: You should Hume's political philosophy and become a British conservative.  A story goes Jefferson banned it because he did not want Toryism to spread across America.
[00:08] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Keshi are you a fascist?
[00:09] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Oh… no, are you capitalist?
[00:09] 18<hammond> XD
[00:09] 31<Boilerplate_>30 No
[00:10] 18<hammond> I'm a monopolist(if such a term exists) XDDD
[00:10] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I'm not a bourgiose who owns the means the production and exploits workers for profit
[00:10] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: I am probably moderate nowadays to be honest with myself.  A year ago I would have completely said I was "socialist".  Studying inequality though, I think there is function in some of them.
[00:10] 21<hammond>21 you know Boilerplate_ that doesn't that isn't like that
[00:11] 18<hammond> I mean the bourgiose sounds like something static. its like they have the money and thats it. like bankruptancy doesn't apply for these people.
[00:11] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Inequality is the symptom of capitalism
[00:12] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Contemporary Marxism generally acknowledges class structure is more complex than that.
[00:12] 18<hammond> Everyone have the same oppertiunity.
[00:13] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Really, welfare beneficiaries unduly extra "surplus" from workers.
[00:13] 18<Keshi> hammond: LOL, not really… there is no significant social mobility in the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, United Kingdom, Sweden… the list goes on.
[00:14] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Well for example: I don't know anyone who is a banker
[00:14] 18<hammond> how can you what?
[00:14] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Or a CEO of a company
[00:14] 18<hammond> Keshi as I'm aware people get in and out of the Forbes list everyday.
[00:14] 18<Keshi> hammond: Mostly people's outcomes reflect their parents' (i.e. there is not intergenerational social mobility), their peers (i.e. there is no "vertical" social mobility) and whatever.
[00:15] 18<hammond> Keshi there is some of that sure.
[00:15] 18<Keshi> hammond: Sure, that reflects other things though… changes like that mostly only occur as the structure of economic productivity changes.
[00:16] 18<hammond> But these people are subject to financial conditions and risks like any other man.
[00:16] 18<Keshi> Bill Gates made a lot of money and some people made better livelihood than their parents as IT became important.  That is no longer the case though.
[00:17] 18<hammond> hahaha
[00:17] 18<Keshi> …and, sure, there are individual who move up and down.  There is not a significant amount of them though.
[00:17] 18<hammond> cmon.
[00:17] 18<hammond> I think ther is, how did you guys measure this actually?
[00:18] 18<hammond> I mean you can stay there, if you have the ability to stay there.
[00:18] 18<hammond> Its not how much money you have that makes you rich lol:P
[00:18] 18<Keshi> It is not too difficult I guess… some things are very easy to measure… life the average at which different "classes" die.
[00:18] 18<Keshi> Measuring income is also very easy.
[00:19] 18<hammond> well I dont have any data myself.
[00:19] 18<Keshi> Measuring power is generally pretty hard because it acts so covertly… people do not normally want people to know whose strings they are pulling.
[00:19] 18<Keshi> That is one reason why finding out whether Uuni is a spy is difficult.
[00:19] 18<Uuni> im a spy
[00:20] 18<Keshi> Measuring stuff like educational attainment is easy enough on an ordinal scale, i.e. in terms of Stevens' theory of scale types.
[00:20] 18<hammond> But seeing the Forbes list and knowing how dreadful the economy can be I think its failry obvious that there is a substantial liquidity in class changes.
[00:20] 18<Keshi> Like you can say a bachelor degree is more than a high school diploma, which is more than finishing at year 10… or whatever.
[00:21] 18<Keshi> hammond: Yes… that is why some social theorists… like one who taught me… say there is now "classless" inequalities.
[00:21] 18<Keshi> Apparently there is inequalities, but people's positions are transient and "classes" are not classes because the transience makes it so people do not form groups that act on political interests.
[00:22] 18<Keshi> Uuni: Fair enough… that is mean… what did we ever do to you anyway?
[00:22] 18<hammond> lol
[00:23] 18<Uuni> i dont know keshi
[00:23] 18<Uuni> im just bad person
[00:24] 18<Keshi> Uuni: Fair enough, I guess that means we will have to form a committee to decide what to do about you...
[00:25] 18<Keshi> Uuni: You feeling alright though, any idea why the girl thing is upsetting you?  There are always heaps of other people out there.
[00:25] 18<Uuni> aghs...  i can not love anyone else
[00:25] 18<hammond> so what is this big inequality then, like the guy can travel in a learjet, and the small guy has to take the train?
[00:25] 18<Uuni> to lay my eyes on any other would be a terrible act
[00:28] 18<Keshi> hammond: Yeah, "absolute" and "relative" poverty are different.  Wilkinson and Pickett fairly convincingly argue inequality is bad, even if everyone is not in absolute poverty.  They found no correlation between national wealth per person and life expectancy, educational attainment, people's willingness to help and whatever in developed countries, but found increased inequality correlates with more of each of those things.
[00:28] 18<Keshi> hammond: The book is called the "Spirit Level" and is fairly readable.  I think there is a Wikipedia page about it.
[00:29] 18<Keshi> Uuni: Fair enough, have you let the person know you like her?
[00:29] 18<hammond> ok
[00:31] 18<Keshi> hammond: Yeah, there is a lot of stuff out there… a lot of the problematic stuff though is that there is tradeoffs between different things.
[00:31] 18<Uuni> keshi, i insulted in a terrible way
[00:31] 18<Uuni> i have no form of contacting her
[00:32] 18<Uuni> shes effectively vanished from my life
[00:32] 18<Uuni> the last time i saw her was months ago
[00:32] 18<Uuni> though i dreamt of her last night
[00:32] 18<Uuni> it depresses me
[00:33] 18<Keshi> hammond: Stuff like welfare programmes erode the family… and they do.
[00:34] 18<Keshi> hammond: Marriage failures, out-of-wedlock births and elderly people becoming extremely lonely in aged care homes are all associated with state provision of services.
[00:36] 18<Keshi> hammond: Socialism though does not have to be through the state.  Tocqueville and Marx, in common, predicted the state would decline.  Marx thought volunteerism would be the core of communist, not a state providing all these welfare services.  Tocqueville also described how churches, workplaces and that in pre-civil war America looked after people and how pre-civil Americans were on equal cultural terms.
[00:36] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Remember 'Socialist State' is a oxymoron.
[00:37] 18<Keshi> Uuni: I see, I think you are trolling.  If you aren't though, obviously, obsessing over someone you no longer have contact with is not helpful.  Trying to just think the thing through and moving on would be my bet.  It is your choice what you do though.
[00:38] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Sure… that is how historically "Marxist" societies ending up being though.
[00:38] 18<Uuni> alright
[00:38] 18<hammond> well...
[00:39] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Marx also said religion and a bunch of things were incompatible with communism, so he would want churches disbanded and so such.  That is not necessarily a good idea.
[00:39] 18<hammond> everyone can make it in a free market economy if they want to I think.
[00:39] 18<hammond> and it works both sides.
[00:39] 31<Boilerplate_>30 http://i.imgur.com/Z0Js4.jpg
[00:39] 18<Keshi> hammond: Really?  What about paraplegics?
[00:39] 18<hammond> lol what?
[00:40] 18<hammond> wheel chair?
[00:41] 18<Keshi> Yeah, selling a propertyless and uneducated paraplegic might have a hard time selling their labour.
[00:42] 18<hammond> ah, dunno, they can make broidery in their freee time and jerk off when no one is watching.
[00:43] 18<Keshi> Yeah, buying the needles might be hard though.
[00:43] 18<hammond> I know its hard to get out of the poverty cycle
[00:43] 18<hammond> hehe
[00:43] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Keshi: It's actually because socialism/communism has never been attempted or existed.
[00:44] 18<hammond> Its hard to get out of the poverty cycle, but what do you decide to stay in there all of your life?
[00:44] 18<Keshi> I guess what I more meant was I think conservatives and classical liberals can sometimes argue the cultural side of society can be instead of the welfare state.
[00:44] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Also Marx said that religion would die off in a Socialist/Communist society since it's being used as a tool to pacify/instll fear into workers.
[00:44] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Hence "Opium of the Masses"
[00:45] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Under communism/socialism according to Marx religion would be rendered obselete and thing of the past since there isn't need of them anymore
[00:46] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: That is not how early Marxists read Marx though.  They thought he said Communists should promote atheism because religion prevents revolution.
[00:48] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Although Marx never said anything of promoting atheism and surpressing religion but he rather said it would disappear in a communist society, I think Lenin and others took his message out of context.
[00:49] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Well Keshi, have you tried to go on ##marxism channel and discuss things with them?
[00:51] 18<hammond> lol
[00:51] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Keshi are you a liberal?
[00:52] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Obviously, I am a conservative.
[00:53] 31<Boilerplate_>30 That explains alot, in any case I think I'm wasting my time with you.
[00:53] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Well, no, he said it was part of a historical trend and that human action was mediated by economic necessity.
[00:53] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: LOL, I am a member of the Greens...
[00:53] 23* 23Uuni has quit (23Ping timeout: 246 seconds23)
[00:53] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: I am left-wing enough… throwing in the political faction card seemed in bad spirits basically.
[00:54] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Like Engels at Marx's funeral said Marx disordered the law of society's evolution like Darwin disorder how species evolve.
[00:54] 31<Boilerplate_>30 You don't sound left wing though especially you just admitted being a conserative
[00:54] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Make up your damn mind
[00:55] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: LOL, I work for a Greens parliamentarian.
[00:55] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: A Marxist playing the class war card is not surprising though I guess.
[00:56] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Doesn't matter what do you work for, what does matter is you.
[00:56] 18<Keshi> Yeah, as a conservative, I joined a left-wing party and started working for them.
[00:56] 19* 19blackswan (~hermit@c-68-33-170-167.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #&philosophy
[00:57] 18<hammond> lol
[00:58] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: To be honest, I think you are probably a conservative too… you support marriage equality, no?
[00:59] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I thought conseratives are against marriage equality
[00:59] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Well actually I'm against the entire concept of marriage actually since it's a another manfestion of property
[01:00] 31<Boilerplate_>30 It's like putting a copyright stamp or fence around a person
[01:00] 31<Boilerplate_>30 It's the same thing like everything capitalism revolves on
[01:00] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Property
[01:00] 18<Keshi> There you go, hence, why I am conservative to you.
[01:01] 18<Keshi> It is not "property".  No one thinks of partners as "property" absurd positions on the left like that are just out of touch with people.
[01:01] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Yes it is your ignoring reality
[01:01] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Yes it is propety in the end.
[01:02] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Well… we could do some research...
[01:02] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Only within your own fixed academics
[01:02] 31<Boilerplate_>30 from bourgiose scholoars
[01:02] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Get a sampling frame of phone number… randomly select someone and ask them "is your wife property"?
[01:02] 18<hammond> lol
[01:03] 18<hammond> bourgiose scholars.
[01:03] 31<Boilerplate_>30 What I mean that if I have sex with someone's wife and the husbands catches me and the answer would be "Yes"
[01:03] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Also where do you think "Head of the Household" comes from?
[01:04] 18<hammond> those bearded 1800s people were crazy actually, they set WWI and WWII in motion with those ideas..
[01:04] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Infidelity, not property.
[01:04] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Again, very out of touch with people.
[01:05] 18<Keshi> hammond: How is Marxism to blame for World War I and II?
[01:05] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I think your missing the point Keshi
[01:05] 18<hammond> they saw the electricy come up and the telephone, and they sat in their studies plotting political science fiction(marxism, nasi, etc) and that let to thousand of people dieing.
[01:06] 18<hammond> led*
[01:06] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: I am understanding understanding the nasty bourgeois patriarchal social order?
[01:07] 21<hammond>21 Boilerplate_ marxism is political science alright, but political science fiction.
[01:07] 18<hammond> just something that works on the papers.
[01:07] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Here we go with the rherotic again
[01:07] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Because as a male, white and in the developed "north"… I just like exploiting people all around?  Like when you look at a woman… you want to exploit them to extra some surplus?
[01:07] 18<Keshi> * extract
[01:07] 18<hammond> and when you try to implement it, stalin arrise.
[01:07] 18<hammond> XD
[01:08] 18<blackswan> no system other than laissez-faire capitalism can be maintained without force or threat of force
[01:08] 31<Boilerplate_>30 No it doesn't, I think you need to study history a little carefully
[01:08] 18<hammond> Keshi, Marxism did add to the term oil.
[01:08] 31<Boilerplate_>30 and stop relying on bourgiose historians
[01:09] 31<Boilerplate_>30 You know what? I'm wasting my time here and this channel is toxic
[01:09] 18<Keshi> hammond: Fascists political scientists made a lot of correct predictions.  They said do not put the Jews in Palestine because it would create political problems because their institutions cannot be "bundled" with Muslim ones.
[01:09] 18<Keshi> hammond: Hitler came to power though and power is nowadays concentrated in executives, so… fascist political science did not really hold.
[01:10] 18<Keshi> blackswan: Oh, capitalism requires the state exercising judicial power.  It might even require it exercising military power.
[01:11] 18<Keshi> blackswan: Classical liberals "capitalists" say the state's only legitimate role is to keep the laws so people can compete amongst themselves.
[01:12] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Another thing with Marriage Keshi, then how do you explain the existence of Domestic Abuse, Honor Killings, and such? It's the same thing as using and abusing your prized cow
[01:12] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: You male or female?
[01:12] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I'm not telling
[01:13] 18<hammond> I think all these marxist ideas and all these ideologies spurred the young and romantic students to go to WWI. its the ideas fault.
[01:13] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Okay I'm male
[01:13] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Right, well, I sure hope you do not think of your husband or wife like that.
[01:13] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I'm not married
[01:13] 31<Boilerplate_>30 and never will be
[01:13] 18<hammond> :O
[01:13] 18<hammond> Stalin
[01:14] 18<blackswan> keshi, laissez-faire capitalism can be maintained without force or threat of force if the participants are sufficiently rational
[01:14] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Because marriage is unethical
[01:14] 18<hammond> oh bummer.
[01:14] 18<hammond> Look at this Keshi!
[01:15] 18<hammond> this guy/girl thinks marriage is like pimping and stuff
[01:15] 18<hammond> look at what that devilish book has brought upon us, its effects still lingering to this day.
[01:15] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Oh, people say fornication is unethical.
[01:15] 18<Keshi> hammond: LOL.
[01:15] 18<hammond> he/she cannot love proper.
[01:16] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Marriage is basically legalized prositution
[01:16] 18<hammond> Boilerplate, you have to renounce satan(stalin)
[01:16] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Is prostitution illegal in your jurisdiction?
[01:16] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Therefore Marriage itself must be abolished
[01:17] 21<hammond>21 yeah and you believe in that feminist theory too huh Boilerplate_ ?
[01:17] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Prositution is also a septem of capitalist society as well
[01:17] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Would you ever go into a church and as the priest says "speak now or forever hold your peace" say "I object, marriage is like legalised prostitution".
[01:18] 21<hammond>21 lol Boilerplate_ whats wrong with having sex with the same person you love everynight!
[01:18] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: I sure hope you change these attitudes before friends invite you to weddings.  You would embarrass them horribly.
[01:18] 18<hammond> That book even discusses night matters!
[01:18] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I rather be sexually promiscious than loving with one person
[01:18] 18<hammond> :O
[01:19] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Right, you prefer promiscuity over monogamy and yet say marriage and prostitution are the same.
[01:19] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Because they are
[01:19] 18<hammond> haha
[01:19] 18<hammond> awful
[01:19] 18<hammond> How are they the same.
[01:19] 31<Boilerplate_>30 That's why I despise Marriage
[01:19] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: So you would not support marriage equality then… because it would unfairly subject homosexuals to terribly evil prostitution contracts?
[01:20] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I thought I already explained, the wife is the property of the husband to be used abused and disposed
[01:20] 18<hammond> The woman comes and livs in my house, I pay the bills she cooks and at night its party time, is that prostitution to you?
[01:20] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Much like the man's other property
[01:20] 18<hammond> That is a very big generality.
[01:20] 31<Boilerplate_>30 like using, abusing, and disposing livestock
[01:20] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Oh, right, you think husbands can murder their wives?
[01:20] 18<hammond> what about love! gosh
[01:21] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Also wives according to Marriage are livestock
[01:21] 18<hammond> how hollow.
[01:21] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Is that they do?
[01:21] 18<hammond> sad
[01:21] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Who is marriage?
[01:21] 18<Keshi> What the heck does "according to marriage" mean?
[01:21] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Have you heard of Domestic Violence?
[01:21] 31<Boilerplate_>30 and Honor Killings?
[01:22] 31<Boilerplate_>30 The Entire system of how Marriage works
[01:22] 18<hammond> those are extreeme cases.
[01:22] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: You think loving couples commit domestic violence and honour killings?
[01:22] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Yep
[01:22] 18<hammond> lolol
[01:22] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Yeah, because the screams fill the streets at night… you know...
[01:22] 31<Boilerplate_>30 There is not such thing as "Loving Couples"
[01:22] 31<Boilerplate_>30 "Love" is a myth
[01:22] 18<hammond> and in the morning you find all these women corpeses everywhere.
[01:23] 18<hammond> You are hollow.
[01:23] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: All the husbands shouting, the wives screams, the noisy as people behead each other… it all makes sleeping in suburbia horribly difficult.
[01:24] 31<Boilerplate_>30 The shouting and screams are muffled and we can't hear them unless your inside the house
[01:24] 18<hammond> No its awfull with you. I mean, its ok, but the marriage institution has several benifits.
[01:24] 18<Keshi> hammond: Yeah, don't envy the garbage men… picking up all the corpses.
[01:24] 18<hammond> hahahah
[01:24] 18<hammond> I would bring a few home.
[01:25] 18<hammond> and stuff them.
[01:25] 18<hammond> and yea marry them.
[01:26] 21<hammond>21 Boilerplate_: dont you believe in love atleast?
[01:26] 31<Boilerplate_>30 No
[01:26] 18<hammond> like loving your brother or sister?
[01:26] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Love doesn't exist
[01:26] 18<hammond> how about friends?
[01:26] 31<Boilerplate_>30 It's a astract concept
[01:26] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I have no friends or brothers and sisters
[01:26] 18<hammond> how about your moms love to you and vice versa?
[01:27] 18<hammond> I mean hen you were a kid learning to walk and everyone was happy with you, what was that?
[01:27] 18<hammond> I mean you were useless.
[01:27] 18<hammond> and a burden, but still yhey were happy with you, what was that?
[01:28] 18<hammond> we aren't machines you know.
[01:29] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Well I actually meant is "True Love" actually
[01:29] 31<Boilerplate_>30 It's a naive myth
[01:30] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Well words are subjective
[01:30] 18<hammond> It would certianly spare you a lot of trouble if you try to see things in that way, but its not like that.
[01:30] 18<hammond> if your mom dies now, you cry :P
[01:31] 18<hammond> and feel really sad and stuff.
[01:31] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Nope, I"m a stoic
[01:31] 18<hammond> wtf.
[01:31] 31<Boilerplate_>30 emotions keeps us down from thinking rationally and logically
[01:31] 18<hammond> I think I wont cry either, or maybe I wont even go to my moms funeral, but I will be really sad..:P
[01:32] 18<hammond> Im not taking you seriously anymore you marxist fuck.
[01:32] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Marx married you know… he called the women the "beautifulest girl in the village".  You was also amiable with conservatives.  He held discussions with a Prussian conservative a lot.
[01:33] 18<Keshi> Marx had daughter too… and they married and Marx did not discourage them doing so.
[01:33] 18<Keshi> Eleanor Marx's marriage was unfortunate.  Her husband cheated on her and she committed suicide.
[01:33] 18<Keshi> His other daughters marriages were happy though as far as I know.
[01:34] 18<hammond> its these wannabe machines that sent humanity into 8 years of stallemate! Marxism is devilry! behaware!
[01:34] 18<hammond> beware*
[01:34] 18<hammond> XD
[01:34] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: You say you value promiscuity… well, that gives birth to adultery and that made Marx's daughter kill herself.
[01:35] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: The rape a Roman noblewoman also gave birth to the Roman Republic… they described promiscuity as an act of tyranny that only a monarch could get away with.
[01:36] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Don't equate promicusity with rape
[01:36] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I'm no rapist
[01:36] 18<hammond> XD
[01:36] 18<Keshi> The abolition of the Roman monarchy continues to last too… the Roman Curia now has an elected monarch, the Pope.  The Roman and Byzantine emperors and Holy Roman Emperor were also elective.
[01:36] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Slippery slope… lots of men deny they raped people.
[01:37] 18<hammond> I mean you are a hollow person I mean fuck, anything goes according to your lines of thought.
[01:37] 18<hammond> hehe
[01:37] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Well thing is you don't me, and actually I never had sex in my life
[01:37] 31<Boilerplate_>30 *know
[01:38] 18<hammond> Keshi, shouldn't you be on the other side, saying goolish things like marriage is whoring or something? I thought you indulged yourself in the marxist belief.
[01:38] 18<hammond> Oh
[01:39] 18<hammond> this happens when a virgin talks about sex and mairriage and love...
[01:39] 18<hammond> typical
[01:39] 18<hammond> I should have known.
[01:39] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Although I do masturbate to pictures though
[01:39] 18<Keshi> hammond: Oh… I am Green and unchastity is not social justice.
[01:40] 31<Boilerplate_>30 That's the only thing I can control my sexual urges
[01:40] 18<Keshi> hammond: Social justice covers a lot of things… rule of law, egalitarianism and all are part of it.
[01:41] 18<hammond> I  see.
[01:41] 18<Keshi> hammond: I support egalitarianism… I do not think government always does it best.  It is just situation-by-situation, sometimes leaving it to charities is best.
[01:42] 18<Keshi> hammond: Like Catholic schools produce happier children than state schools… so I support public funding for private Catholic schools.
[01:42] 18<Keshi> So does the Labor Party and the, right-wing, Liberal Party.
[01:43] 18<hammond> hahaha
[01:43] 18<hammond> I guess it does happen that way.
[01:44] 18<hammond> Thats a big nonsense in that book, imagine that in russia, everybody making out with everybody, that Marx guy was realllyyyy in to sharing everything.
[01:45] 18<hammond> I think he really meant that wifes sharing business. nothing but a cheap swinger. maybe he did it.
[01:46] 18<Keshi> Well, hmm… I guess a lot of that is people's private business.  I would not want it occurring in a marriage I was in normally I guess though.
[01:46] 31<Boilerplate_>30 You know with half of the marriage dicussion I was trolling you
[01:46] 18<Keshi> Marx was never socially progressive though.
[01:47] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: Well, I do not believe you at this point, sadly.
[01:47] 18<hammond> hehehe
[01:47] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Not every Marriage is like that but the main basis of Marriage that it's a manfestion of property which is my main point. case closed
[01:47] 18<hammond> who gave you the hammer you.
[01:48] 18* Boilerplate_ hammers hammond
[01:49] 18<hammond> lol I mean get on with the program. make some kids and get a job at a factory.
[01:49] 18<hammond> I mean it seems you are planning to be unemployeed too.
[01:49] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: I see… do you know what Marx meant by "economic structure"?
[01:50] 31<Boilerplate_>30 Whatever your defination of it that you prepairing to take it out of context
[01:51] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: LOL, the only place he puts it all together is in the preface to "Critique of political economy".
[01:51] 31<Boilerplate_>30 I think he was referring to is the capitalist system
[01:52] 18<Keshi> hammond: Maybe, I need to quote a different Bible at this point… did you know Genesis 1: 26 says God made Man is His image…
[01:52] 18<Keshi> hammond: There way I am now like conservative a bit again… after citing Marx off the top of my head… you know?
[01:53] 21<Keshi>21 Boilerplate_: "In the social production of their existence, men inevitably enter into definite relations, which are independent of their will, namely relations of production appropriate to a given stage in the development of their material forces of production. The totality of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which arises a legal and political superstructure and to which
[01:53] 18<Keshi>  correspond definite forms of social consciousness. "
[01:53] 18<Keshi> ^-- http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/preface.htm (that is 99% of how Marx views social structure).