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  382. padding: 3px 6px 3px 6px;
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  415.  
  416.  
  417.  
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  424. padding-right: 3px;
  425. padding-top: 3px;
  426. padding-bottom: 3px;
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  430. border-left: 1px solid #C8E2FF;
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  511. <title>Theology Online | Christian Forums &amp; More - View Single Post -  No Death Penalty for Child Rapists</title>
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  518. <tbody><tr>
  519.     <td class="tcat">
  520.         <div class="smallfont" style="float:right">
  521.             <strong>Thread</strong>:  <a style="text-decoration: underline" href="http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1796213#post1796213">No Death Penalty for Child Rapists</a>
  522.         </div>
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  537. <tbody><tr>
  538.     <td class="thead" id="currentPost">
  539.         <span class="normal" style="float:right">
  540.             &nbsp;
  541.             (#<a href="http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1796213&amp;postcount=2" target="new" rel="nofollow" id="postcount1796213" name="2">2</a>)
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  667.            
  668.                 <div>
  669.                     Originally Posted by <strong>patman</strong>
  670.                     <a href="http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1794675#post1794675" rel="nofollow"><img class="inlineimg" src="no_death_for_child_rapist_files/viewpost.gif" alt="View Post" border="0"></a>
  671.                 </div>
  672.                 <div style="font-style:italic">Why do you keep taking my statements
  673. so personally.  I don't think you believe rape is ok.  You just think
  674. the Bible doesn't say it is worthy of death.  All I am doing is arguing
  675. against your interpretation of the passage.</div>
  676.            
  677.         </td>
  678.     </tr>
  679.     </tbody></table>
  680. </div>Then why would you even bring up the subject of whether or not
  681. rape is OK, if you know that it's completely irrelevant to my point?<br>
  682. <br>
  683. <div style="margin:20px; margin-top:5px; ">
  684.     <div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px">Quote:</div>
  685.     <table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
  686.     <tbody><tr>
  687.         <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">
  688.            
  689.                 I am not reading into the passage.  "They are found out" means both
  690. of them.  If I were to tell you a story about a girl who was raped, I
  691. wouldn't describe the act as "they were having sex," because you would
  692. know from my wording that "THEY" both were having sex; they both
  693. welcomed the act.  Instead I would tell you he was having sex with her,
  694. or he was raping her.
  695.            
  696.         </td>
  697.     </tr>
  698.     </tbody></table>
  699. </div>He was having sex with her = they were having sex. Whether it was
  700. consensual or not is additional information. The passage has already
  701. implied that it was not consensual, so it's you against the Bible here.<br>
  702. <br>
  703. <div style="margin:20px; margin-top:5px; ">
  704.     <div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px">Quote:</div>
  705.     <table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
  706.     <tbody><tr>
  707.         <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">
  708.            
  709.                 The "lets find other examples" argument is in no way full proof
  710. because language just doesn't work that way all the time.  Words can
  711. take on different meanings, making different uses of them unrelated.
  712.            
  713.         </td>
  714.     </tr>
  715.     </tbody></table>
  716. </div>So I suppose that we should just take your opinion of the word as
  717. the final authority then? I don't think so. Scripture interprets
  718. scripture, and words have objective meanings. As I pointed out in the
  719. other thread, the meaning of the word "taphas" here is even less
  720. ambiguous than the meaning of the word "chazaq" in the earlier rape
  721. section.<br>
  722. <br>
  723. <div style="margin:20px; margin-top:5px; ">
  724.     <div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px">Quote:</div>
  725.     <table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
  726.     <tbody><tr>
  727.         <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">
  728.            
  729.                 It can be very useful at times, but in this case  it does not work.  <b>God doesn't have to reuse the same word from one example to another</b>, and the lack of use means nothing.
  730.            
  731.         </td>
  732.     </tr>
  733.     </tbody></table>
  734. </div>If that was the case then one could make the same argument about
  735. the earlier rape passage as well. But that would be reading one's own
  736. bias into the text, just like you're doing.<br>
  737. .<br>
  738. <div style="margin:20px; margin-top:5px; ">
  739.     <div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px">Quote:</div>
  740.     <table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
  741.     <tbody><tr>
  742.         <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">
  743.            
  744.                 "Lay Hold" and "Force" are two different words. The first part of the passage uses <b>force</b> distinctly speaks to <b>rape</b>.  The second is not rape, it is "lay hold", and it indicates he took her virginity but not forcefully.
  745.            
  746.         </td>
  747.     </tr>
  748.     </tbody></table>
  749. </div>This would be a radical departure from it's use elsewhere in scripture and elsewhere in the book of Deuteronomy as well.<br>
  750. <br>
  751. Deuteronomy 21:18-21<br>
  752. If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the
  753. voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they
  754. have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father
  755. and his mother <b>lay hold[taphas]</b> on him, and bring him out unto
  756. the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall
  757. say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and
  758. rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
  759.  And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die:
  760. so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear,
  761. and fear.<br>
  762. <br>
  763. <div style="margin:20px; margin-top:5px; ">
  764.     <div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px">Quote:</div>
  765.     <table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
  766.     <tbody><tr>
  767.         <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">
  768.            
  769.                 You don't have to use "force" to "lay hold" of something.  It is like you take hold of wisdom, or take hold of honor..
  770.            
  771.         </td>
  772.     </tr>
  773.     </tbody></table>
  774. </div>Those are not people. I addressed this point in the other thread
  775. already. But I'll go ahead and quote it here, since you can't seem to be
  776.  bothered to read the other thread.<br>
  777. <br>
  778. <i>Such an argument ignores the fundamental distinction between people
  779. and objects that makes such a usage absurd in the case of objects.
  780. Namely, inanimate objects have no will. This actually reinforces my
  781. interpretation, since, when used of people, it would imply a disregard
  782. of their autonomy, i. e. using people like objects.</i><br>
  783. <br>
  784. <div style="margin:20px; margin-top:5px; ">
  785.     <div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px">Quote:</div>
  786.     <table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
  787.     <tbody><tr>
  788.         <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">
  789.            
  790.                 but instead he took her virginity.  There is no reason to think this
  791.  is rape, especially since rape was so well described before, when it
  792. was defined as force.
  793.            
  794.         </td>
  795.     </tr>
  796.     </tbody></table>
  797. </div>There is every reason to think that this passage comprehends rape,
  798.  and that is the standard historical view among both Christians and
  799. Jews. And considering earlier passages reinforces this interpretation.
  800. Lets look at the explicitly consensual passage earlier in this section.<br>
  801. <br>
  802. Deuteronomy 22:23,24<br>
  803. If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, <b>and a man find her in the city, and lie with her</b>;
  804.  Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye
  805. shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she
  806. cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his
  807. neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.<br>
  808. <br>
  809. Did you see that? He finds her in the city and lays with her. There is no mention of him "taking hold" of her. <br>
  810. <br>
  811. <div style="margin:20px; margin-top:5px; ">
  812.     <div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px">Quote:</div>
  813.     <table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
  814.     <tbody><tr>
  815.         <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">
  816.            
  817.                 The only reason God speaks about if the girl is promised is because
  818. if she was promised, and she was having sex, that would be adultery.
  819.            
  820.         </td>
  821.     </tr>
  822.     </tbody></table>
  823. </div>Yes, and that is the only condition under which the rapist is put to death. Because he's put to death for adultery.<br>
  824. <br>
  825. <div style="margin:20px; margin-top:5px; ">
  826.     <div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px">Quote:</div>
  827.     <table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
  828.     <tbody><tr>
  829.         <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">
  830.            
  831.                 Even so, the case of rape described does state the use of the death
  832. penalty.  It illustrates how to determine rape and what to do about it.
  833.  It shows how the victim is innocent, even if she is promised to
  834. another.
  835.            
  836.         </td>
  837.     </tr>
  838.     </tbody></table>
  839. </div>It does not show how to determine rape at all, which is the
  840. biggest defeater of the claim that this passage is imposing a punishment
  841.  for rape. The rape is not determined, it is presumed given the lack of
  842. witnesses. Now you have one of two possibilities. Either the crime being
  843.  punished is rape, therefore God demands that we presume guilt, or the
  844. crime is adultery, and we presume the innocence of the woman. Only the
  845. latter case is consistent with God's justice.</div>
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