the great prestidigitation wars 2018

[12:29 PM] Merc1138: ok. today I learned that prestidigitation in 5e is broken.
[12:30 PM] Merc1138: or, requires a half dozen house rules from a GM to avoid going insane, and may be one of the most useful spells for trolling a campaign
[12:53 PM] Alaric: it doesnt seem changed
[12:53 PM] Alaric: i must be reading something wrong
[12:54 PM] Genestealers: prestidigitation has always been overpowered
[12:54 PM] Merc1138: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/prestidigitation/
d20PFSRD
Prestidigitation
[12:54 PM] Merc1138: so that's pathfinder and 3.5
[12:54 PM] Merc1138: this is 4e, which lets you do a little more http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Prestidigitation
D&D4 Wiki
Prestidigitation
Prestidigitation is a Cantrip known by all Wizards at 1st level. Errata An update removed the ability to move up to 1 pound of material.
[12:55 PM] Merc1138: 5e https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Prestidigitation#content
Prestidigitation | D&D 5th Edition on Roll20 Compendium
This spell is a minor magical trick that novice spellcasters use for practice. You create one of the following magical effects within range.  • You create an instantaneous, harmless sensory effect, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, fa...
[12:55 PM] Merc1138: that's missing size restrictions for things
[12:55 PM] Genestealers: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-105251.html
Prestidigitation Cheese [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums
Does anyone now any cheesy ways that prestidigitation can do?

It seems open to so many possibilities.
[12:56 PM] Genestealers: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1t78oo/1000_ways_to_use_prestidigitation/
reddit
1,000 ways to use Prestidigitation. • r/DnD
Throw me your best stories or encounters with cantrips. Edit: Made it more general.

[12:56 PM] Alaric: the only one missing a size restriction is the first one
[12:56 PM] Merc1138: nope
[12:57 PM] Merc1138: there is no size limit for a color, or symbol, only a "mark"
[12:57 PM] Merc1138: additionally, an illusory image that can "fit in your hand" is incredibly open to interpretation, regarding how much of it fits in your hand and in which dimenions
[12:58 PM] Alaric: i suppose
[12:58 PM] Merc1138: on top of that, if I can instantly light a candle, torch, or campfire I can instantly burn down your medieval thatched roof if it hasn't been raining
[12:59 PM] Merc1138: even worse, have a grain silo? great, I levitate a pound of grain, then ignite it and cause a massive explosion
[1:00 PM] Merc1138: oh look, the mayor's home has a https://rlv.zcache.com/middle_finger_salute_retro_postcard-rb9b4162638de46008f79605de2e72d89_vgbaq_8byvr_400.jpg on it, 30' across

[1:01 PM] Merc1138: and while it's not allowed to mimic another spell, it doesn't need to for a ton of things
[1:02 PM] Merc1138: and actually, that also means it's worse in 5e, since there's so little additional content to claim that it's mimicing
[1:03 PM] Genestealers: yep
[1:03 PM] Genestealers: I summon two tiny disc shaped illusions.  doesn't sound like much... except I summoned them 1mm in front of your eyes.  you are now blind.  indeffinetly
[1:03 PM] Merc1138: well, for an hour
[1:04 PM] Genestealers: it's a cantrip.  I can use permanency on it real easy
[1:04 PM] Genestealers: I just permanently blinded someone with no will save
[1:04 PM] Merc1138: there's no 5e permanency
[1:04 PM] Genestealers: no?  huh... figured it would be there since it is a cornerstone D&D spell
[1:05 PM] Merc1138: it's a thing that makes a lot of stuff broken yes. but a cornerstone? not really
[1:06 PM] Merc1138: and yes, 1 hour of no save blindness so long as you get within 10' of the target is fucking stupid, and it's not mimicing being blind... it's mimicing glaucoma
[1:06 PM] Genestealers: "I cast summon glaucoma" "there is no such spell player"  "prestidigitation GM"
[1:07 PM] Merc1138: now you could have the target simply take a half step backwards BUT... there's no specific rule allowing that either
[1:07 PM] Merc1138: so like I said, needs a bunch of houserules to fix
[1:07 PM] Merc1138: plus, the illusory objects have to appear in your hand, making someone's corneas black...
[1:11 PM] Genestealers: any spell that is limited only by imagination are generally broken by definition
[1:12 PM] Merc1138: sure, but that's especially broken for a cantrip due to stupid wording
[1:12 PM] Genestealers: yes
[1:19 PM] Leo the Assassin: hmmm
[1:19 PM] Leo the Assassin: what would these disks be made of?
[1:20 PM] Leo the Assassin: cause it does say that all objects it makes are fragile
[1:20 PM] Leo the Assassin: so if you could just like
[1:20 PM] Leo the Assassin: push on both of your eyes and shatter both of these disks
[1:20 PM] Leo the Assassin: directly into your eyeballs
[1:20 PM] Leo the Assassin: would it fuck you up y/n
[1:20 PM] Leo the Assassin: cause I also don't think you can directly damage anyone with prestidigitation, short of with a fire you started with it
[1:22 PM] Merc1138: blinding someone isn't damaging them
[1:23 PM] Merc1138: and yeah, it says you can create an image that'll fit in your hand.. but it doesn't specify that it has to be in your hand
[1:24 PM] Leo the Assassin: blinding them doesn't damage them, no
[1:24 PM] Leo the Assassin: but if they are breakable,
[1:24 PM] Leo the Assassin: like they are
[1:24 PM] Merc1138: I'd assume an illusory image, the person could just walk through it
[1:24 PM] Leo the Assassin: ah
[1:24 PM] Leo the Assassin: illusory opaque disks
[1:24 PM] Merc1138: but still, just turning their corneas black is the same effect
[1:25 PM] Leo the Assassin: I thought you couldn't affect a living thing, either
[1:25 PM] Leo the Assassin: only inanimate objects
[1:25 PM] Leo the Assassin: so if they have glasses, sure
[1:25 PM] Leo the Assassin: turn them shits black
[1:25 PM] Merc1138: no, it doesn't say you can't change the color of a living thing
[1:25 PM] Merc1138: that's just chilling/warming/flavoring
[1:26 PM] Leo the Assassin: damn
[1:26 PM] Leo the Assassin: ...but the target would get a save, though, right?(edited)
[1:26 PM] Merc1138: for what?
[1:26 PM] Leo the Assassin: for being affected by a spell unwillingly
[1:26 PM] Merc1138: is there such a thing in 5e?
[1:27 PM] Nonplayablecooper: If I recall correctly
[1:27 PM] Nonplayablecooper: Yes
[1:29 PM] Merc1138: I'm only seeing specified magic resistance or immunity
[1:29 PM] Leo the Assassin: goddammit 5e get your shit together
[1:31 PM] Leo the Assassin: huh
[1:31 PM] Leo the Assassin: in the PF spell description, under saving throw it just says "see text"
[1:31 PM] Leo the Assassin: but it doesn't say anything about saving throws in the text
[1:31 PM] Leo the Assassin: it just says you can't deal damage or interrupt the concentration of spell casters
[1:32 PM] Merc1138: sure, but the PF spell description isn't anywhere near as broken either
[1:32 PM] Leo the Assassin: the part that's always bothered me about it is how vague they are on what "soiling" an object is
[1:32 PM] Merc1138: and like mentioned has the problem of there being many spells that it's not allowed to mimic
[1:33 PM] Leo the Assassin: cause it's not like an illusion, it persists
[1:33 PM] Leo the Assassin: so are you just like
[1:33 PM] Leo the Assassin: summoning shit from the elemental plane of feces or something?
[1:33 PM] Leo the Assassin: to coat whatever it is?
[1:33 PM] Merc1138: it could have been from the elemental plane of earth and just been dirt... but ok
[1:34 PM] Leo the Assassin: https://i.imgur.com/G1F1ECN.jpg
[1:37 PM] Nonplayablecooper: Are you talking about the summoned trinkets?
[1:37 PM] Leo the Assassin: so I'm talking about the fact that you can "soil" an object with prestidigitation
[1:37 PM] Nonplayablecooper: Ah
[1:37 PM] Leo the Assassin: without further elaborating on what "soiling" an object entails
[1:37 PM] Nonplayablecooper: The opposite of clean
[1:37 PM] Nonplayablecooper: Considering what its "or" is
[1:38 PM] Leo the Assassin: yes, but
[1:38 PM] Leo the Assassin: clean is a vacuum
[1:38 PM] Nonplayablecooper: What does it mean to soil something?
[1:39 PM] Leo the Assassin: the state of being clean means the absence of things dirtying it
[1:39 PM] Leo the Assassin: one could dirty something an infinite number of ways
[1:42 PM] averydapperbadger: @Leo the Assassin  I feel this answers your question
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/816/its-magic-i-aint-gotta-explain-shit2.jpg
[1:42 PM] Leo the Assassin: THIS ANSWER IS INADEQUATE
[1:54 PM] Merc1138: it actually is very inadequate because if I can soil the inside of your blood vessels with poop from the elemental plane of poop...
[1:55 PM] Nonplayablecooper: I think this goes by the R Kelly rules of "If I can see it, then I can do it."
[1:55 PM] Leo the Assassin: pretty sure blood that's inside someone's veins counts as a living object
[1:55 PM] Leo the Assassin: but you can soak someone's clothes and shoes in shit, though, I guess
[1:56 PM] Leo the Assassin: then be like i's doodoo, baby! and run away
[1:56 PM] Merc1138: doesn't say you can't soil or clean a living object
[1:56 PM] Leo the Assassin: fuck
[1:56 PM] Leo the Assassin: that's true
[1:56 PM] Leo the Assassin: but would you have line of effect to someone's veins?
[1:56 PM] Leo the Assassin: well, whatever
[1:56 PM] Merc1138: and then there's the matter of is an epidermis living or dead tissue? if not living.. time to be made chilled or warmed to be uncomfortable
[1:56 PM] Leo the Assassin: you still can't damage or distract people with prestidigitation
[1:57 PM] Merc1138: it's still not damaging or distracting with prestidigitation... it IS damaging them via the medical conditions you just imposed, but the poop did that
[1:58 PM] Merc1138: via septic shock
[2:15 PM] Leo the Assassin: look
[2:16 PM] Leo the Assassin: I'm pretty sure that introducing a significant quantity of shit into somebody's circulatory system is gonna fuck them up pretty much right away
[2:16 PM] Merc1138: it only takes a little, not a lot
[2:16 PM] Leo the Assassin: there ya go
[2:17 PM] Leo the Assassin: I would classify doing something to somebody that they then almost immediately die from as dealing damage
[2:17 PM] Merc1138: and unless you're blocking their circulatory system with it... they'll be fine. it's the kidney failure that'll get 'em
[2:17 PM] Merc1138: no, it'd be slow
[2:17 PM] Leo the Assassin: fuckin
[2:17 PM] Leo the Assassin: line of effect(edited)
[2:17 PM] Merc1138: because yes if I was going to try and use that, then all I'd need to do is block your airway by soiling it with a rock
[2:18 PM] Genestealers: or some sort of sticky much
[2:18 PM] Merc1138: or mud/tar/sand/etc.
[2:18 PM] Leo the Assassin: if you can't create water inside something until they pop like a water balloon, you can't prestidigitize anything inside of someone
[2:19 PM] Genestealers: I just prestidigitize some gloop in my hand... slap it on your face.  obstruct your airways
[2:19 PM] Genestealers: gg
[2:19 PM] Leo the Assassin: ah, but that's going against the intent
[2:19 PM] Leo the Assassin: the intent is to make the opposite of clean, and I think that crosses over into created an object
[2:20 PM] Merc1138: now a more interesting debate would be regarding "flavor" because dead cells are not living, and taste is largely a factor of smell but not entirely. if I can flavor your nose hairs to be that of ghost peppers...
[2:20 PM] Leo the Assassin: alright
[2:20 PM] Leo the Assassin: fuckin
[2:20 PM] Leo the Assassin: next time I'm running pathfinder, I'm houseruling this shit
[2:20 PM] Nonplayablecooper: Why do you guys  care about this so much? Isn't the general consensus around here that you all hate 5e and refuse to ever play it?
[2:20 PM] Leo the Assassin: "cannot do damage OR OTHERWISE CAUSE HARM"(edited)
[2:21 PM] Merc1138: lol, I said it was 5e that was busted not PF
[2:21 PM] Genestealers: or
[2:21 PM] Genestealers: we have a tacit agreement with the GM not to do that sort of crazy shit
[2:21 PM] Leo the Assassin: that also works
[2:21 PM] Eitan: so... you are going to run pathfinder again? :smiley:
[2:21 PM] Leo the Assassin: no
[2:21 PM] Merc1138: sure, but you could troll a 5e game as a prestidigitation wizard
[2:21 PM] Eitan: because I have an Akashic Mysteries character I wanna try
[2:21 PM] Leo the Assassin: well
[2:22 PM] Merc1138: PF is safe from most of our proposed prestidigitation shenanigans
[2:22 PM] Leo the Assassin: this is one of sorts of things where I would be like
[2:22 PM] Leo the Assassin: you can have it, sure
[2:22 PM] Leo the Assassin: ...but by doing so, you're tacitly agreeing that every other wizard and sorcerer is capable of doing this, too
[2:23 PM] Leo the Assassin: and when all the Spell Control lobbyists start making impassioned speeches about how Little Jimmy the Wizard's apprentice used a simple prestidigitation spell to murder a bunch of people,
[2:24 PM] Leo the Assassin: then the Wizard Council will regulate it, and all cantrips and spells
[2:24 PM] Leo the Assassin: and you'll have to go through a lengthy registration process and waiting period to buy scrolls or oils
[2:24 PM] Merc1138: that's been the case in quite a few anime/books/etc. it's not going to work out how you think it might
[2:24 PM] Leo the Assassin: and if any innocent people are harmed, they'll send assassins to kill you in your sleep with the deadly prestidigitation spell(edited)
[2:25 PM] Merc1138: hell, dragonage
[2:25 PM] Leo the Assassin: coating your brain in shit or something
[2:25 PM] Leo the Assassin: and yes,
[2:25 PM] Leo the Assassin: I'm more than aware
[2:25 PM] Leo the Assassin: that you guys would thoroughly prove the inadequacies of gun control laws
[2:26 PM] Leo the Assassin: ...or metaphorical variations thereof
[2:26 PM] Leo the Assassin: and that sort of logic of fighting bullshit with bullshit just leads to shadowrun squirt gun wars
[2:26 PM] Leo the Assassin: and nobody wants that
[2:28 PM] Leo the Assassin: nothing says cyberpunk like a bunch of dudes running around in hermetically-sealed hazmat suits firing liquid ebola and cocaine at each other with super soakers
[2:28 PM] Leo the Assassin: and fleets of drones carrying water balloons
[2:32 PM] Merc1138: https://i.imgflip.com/27vzx2.jpg
[2:39 PM] Genestealers: HAHAHAHHA
[2:40 PM] Genestealers: way to sum up that entire discussion
[2:40 PM] Genestealers: :smile:
[2:40 PM] Genestealers: I love you guys