<ArrowLance> yeah there are socialists there boilerplate_ im sure
<ArrowLance> but is the revolution socialist? Well can't know that yet, at least i can't
<ArrowLance> I doubt it though
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: I don't think it's really a revolution, more a revolt; they complain about specific things like the price of bus and the wastes of the world cup, but I don't think they want to change the whole system
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: well, some do of course, but I don't think it's where it's going
<Boilerplate_> oh...
<Boilerplate_> It's really nothing more than a big tangant
<Boilerplate_> or tentrum
<Boilerplate_> Oh I found this BTW: http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2013/06/breaking-news-iran-will-send-military.html
<GameOver> Title: War News Updates: BREAKING NEWS: Iran Will Send Military Forces Into Syria (at warnewsupdates.blogspot.com)
<Boilerplate_> "My Comment: No one else is reporting this news, but I know that The Independent has good sources in Iran and their reports are usually correct. As for this Iranian deployment .... I suspect that this is only the first contingent .... that more will follow. This also changes the dynamics on the ground completely .... both in Syria and in the Middle East. To put it bluntly .... we are on the verge
<Boilerplate_> of a Sunni-Shiite war in the Middle East. "
<Boilerplate_> so kilobug I wonder if the sources are bullshit with the Iran going into Syria thing?
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: no idea, sounds a bit surprising because Al-Assad is a secular dictator, while Iran is a theocracy, but they both dislike US imperalism and Israel, so... "the ennemy of my ennemy is my friend" logic can apply
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: but I don't think it's a big deal, it'll make even more a mess in Syria, but everyone seems to be wanting to make even more a mess in it, so I quite gave up any hope for the civil war to stop anytime soon (and I don't have the slighest hope that whoever will win won't be a bastard)
* VunKruz (~hhhh@108-206-230-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) has joined
<ModularBoy> This is gonna turn into some ugly proxy conflict with Iran now that the US is arming the opposition
<ModularBoy> This is bad
<Boilerplate_> Of course the sources might be questionable though.
<Boilerplate_> since it was on Russian Today...so I'm skeptical
<kilobug> ModularBoy: it already turned into an ungy proxy conflict with both sides being armed by foreign powers :/
<ModularBoy> Yeah
<ModularBoy> I just can't help but think of what Fidel said a few years or so ago
<ModularBoy> That the fighting between Israel/US and Iran had already begun
<ModularBoy> Now it's stepping up
<Boilerplate_> Hmmm....
<ModularBoy> First assassinating engineers and scientists
<ModularBoy> The computer viruses targeting their energy program
<ModularBoy> I dunno
<ModularBoy> I'm thinking out loud
<Boilerplate_> Well it appears that the war between US/Israel and Iran has been going for some time like you just mentioned
<Boilerplate_> Of course I've been wondering about the recent president that had been elected in Iran
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<Boilerplate_> Of course I think the reason they want Iran is because they're sitting on oil reverves?
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: of course
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<Boilerplate_> kilobug: While I don't know if what I posted is true but if it is, well Iran really did sent those troopes to Syria would it lead the U.S. sending soldiers to Syria to fight Iran which would lead them to invade the country? that's what I got in my mind. Or is this really a weapons deal thing?
<Boilerplate_> I mean are seeing a Ireq stlye invasion on Iran anytime soon?
<Boilerplate_> *Iraq
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: US won't send soldiers
<jacobian> They are sending the CIA though
<jacobian> BBC: " The CIA is expected to co-ordinate delivery of the military equipment and train the rebel soldiers in how to use it."
<kilobug> yeah that's very likely
<Boilerplate_> Of course I've been wondering that the Rebels would eventually turn on the U.S. like Al Qudia did.
<kilobug> cover-ops, intelligence, weapons, ...
<Boilerplate_> if they won Syria
<kilobug> but I doubt they'll start sending ground troops
<jacobian> Some of them *are* Al Qaeda
<jacobian> Yes, I don't think troops are going to happen.
<Boilerplate_> I think the U.S. might be repeating the same mistakes like they did with Afganestian where they created and supported Al Qaeda
<Boilerplate_> Also it's very ironic jacobian that the supposibly very enemy were supposed to be fighting but we're only ending up supporting them again.
<Boilerplate_> that's how farce this entire thing is
<kilobug> was it really a mistake ? they got rid of USSR and the commie gov in Afghanistan, that was the main objective, the rest is just... collateral damages ;)
<jacobian> I guess it's ironic if you think the US foreign policy is governed by hopes for peace.
<kilobug> the US doesn't really care about Al Qaeda
<Boilerplate_> Of course there was 9/11 though which is where Al Qaeda turned on us.
<jacobian> I'm curious about their obsession with Iran though
<jacobian> It's weird
<kilobug> jacobian: oil ?
<jacobian> My *guess* is that it's oil
<jacobian> That they want a corridor into central asia
<Boilerplate_> Yep that's exactly what it is
<Boilerplate_> Oil
<jacobian> A compliant Iran would allow them to export oil from Central Asia without having to go through Russia
<jacobian> They tried to create a corridor in Georgia, but that proved difficult because of the Russians
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: 9/11 was terrible for those who died and lose relatives, but from a geopolitical pov, it was a really minor blow to the US, and a great pretext to invade around
<jacobian> Still, I'd like some leaked memos that said something to the effect.
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: I don't believe in all the conspiracy theories that the US did it themselves, they don't have the skill for that ;)
<Boilerplate_> Of course 9/11 is what started this entire mess though.
<jacobian> There are other driving forces in the security state, like self-reproduction by having a threat.
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: but I don't think they really care much about it easier, apart from "how can we exploit it ?"
<jacobian> And that might mean bigging up Iran as a nuclear threat in order to obtain resources.
<kilobug> jacobian: yeah, that can very well be part of it
<Boilerplate_> regime change for resources
<jacobian> <jacobian> They tried to create a corridor in Georgia, but that proved difficult because of the Russians
<jacobian> I also know for a fact that they were planning a corridor through Afghanistan
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<jacobian> which was mental
<jacobian> Who ever in Langley thought they could make a safe pipeline in Afghanistan was a mentler.
<kilobug> hehe
<jacobian> Turkmenistan, Afghanistan Pakistan, what could go wrong?
<jacobian> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/10/nsa-asked-for-p/
<GameOver> Title: NSA Domestic Surveillance Began 7 Months Before 9/11, Convicted Qwest CEO Claims | Threat Level | Wired.com (at www.wired.com)
<Boilerplate_> I think that also debunks the 9/11 conspiracy theories partially well meaning they didn't 9/11 to pull this off
<Boilerplate_> *need
<Boilerplate_> Also if 9/11 didn't happen the U.S. would have invaded Afganestan and Iraq anyways
<kilobug> 9/11 made it easier from a public relation pov, that's all
<kilobug> but yes, they were planning the invasions before
<Boilerplate_> Of course 9/11 truther/conspiracy theorists would twist around and say "Sure they were planning those beforehand but they needed 9/11 to pull it off read PNAC"
<Boilerplate_> or they say "9/11 was part of the plan along with the invasions"
<Boilerplate_> Of course that's what my Dad would probably say or maybe even worse he would also probably say "Israel did it to pull us into the Middle East to fight it's wars"
<kilobug> that's giving way too much credit to their skills and ability to keep things hidden
<kilobug> US is bad at that
<kilobug> look at cointelpro, or iran-contragate, or watergate, or all the wikileaks, or ...
<kilobug> it's not like US can do such a more false-flag attack and keep it hidden for so long
<kilobug> they do very dirty things, but they get caught
<Boilerplate_> Of course when make that point I know my Dad is going say "But there is already tons and tons of evidence it was a inside job but people are ignoring it!"
<kilobug> there is evidence of incompetence, of not taking the warnings seriously
<kilobug> but there is no evidence of them actually doing it
<venturecommunist> Boilerplate_: i feel for you
<Boilerplate_> Of course my Dad believes in the "Nano thermite" crap though and presents it as "evidence"...well he listens to alot of psudeoscience (like James McCanney for exaple) and mistakes it as "actual science"
<venturecommunist> Boilerplate_: here's what i tell my parental unit who also is a truther
<venturecommunist> "I think that it's hard to discuss these things becuase so much relies on technically complicated forensic evidence"
<Boilerplate_> not on coindances which is what truthers rely on.
<venturecommunist> coincidance is a magical word with magical properties
<kilobug> ah, the disasters of flawed epistemology :/
<venturecommunist> kilobug: iknorite?
<Boilerplate_> Of course I also heard my Dad saying about "cutting metal like butter" or something like that
<kilobug> everyone should be trained in the Way of Bayes at early age
* GameOver licks kilobug
<kilobug> venturecommunist: what ?
<venturecommunist> Boilerplate_: a lot of those images were from after firefighters cut beams with plasma torches
<venturecommunist> kilobug: you're saying our parents have flawed epistemologies
<kilobug> venturecommunist: well, believing in conspiracy theories and in pseudoscience is the consequence of flawed epistemology
<Boilerplate_> Just incase if your wondering who James McCanney is: http://www.cosmophobia.org/james-mccanney
<GameOver> Title: James McCanney - Cosmophobia (at www.cosmophobia.org)
<venturecommunist> iknorite = "i know right?"
<kilobug> venturecommunist: oh ok
<Boilerplate_> Of course another thing my Dad relies on is Appeal to Authority "But he's a physicist with a PHd whose been around since the 50s who knows his shit!"
<venturecommunist> does anyone know of an incidence where self-identified anti-capitalists struck for lower wages and won and wear that fact as a badge of honor?
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: so one PHD says non-sense, he's right, hundred of PHD say the opposite, they are wrong ?
<nuit> nah they're just paid to deny the truth
<kilobug> venturecommunist: for lower wages ? o_O
<nuit> isnt it obvious
<venturecommunist> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2013/06/msg00125.html
<GameOver> Title: Re: Proposal #3: Upstream/Debian Project donations (was: PaySwarm-based donations) (at lists.debian.org)
<venturecommunist> read it and cry for the future
* GameOver licks venturecommunist
<venturecommunist> cry
* GameOver licks venturecommunist
<Boilerplate_> kilobug: basically
<Boilerplate_> another argument he also uses when I try to point he's full of rubbish he also uses the "Galieo" argument and I'm being "closed minded" for not listening to him
<Boilerplate_> also he equates me of "burning books" as well
<Boilerplate_> and course "people putting him down like he's insane" even though he is
<Boilerplate_> Of course when I tried to point out he's making money of this he just says "So what everyone makes money"
<Boilerplate_> oh as for the Galieo argument: read Clint Knapp's quote   http://www.jasoncolavito.com/1/post/2013/04/jason-martell-asks-his-fans-to-send-me-hate-mail.html
<GameOver> Title: Jason Martell Asks His Fans to Send Me Hate Mail - JasonColavito.com (at www.jasoncolavito.com)
<venturecommunist> witness the class war going on in open source software: http://blog.incase.de/index.php/2006/10/27/debian-and-dunc-tank/
<GameOver> Title: Debian and Dunc-Tank » Svoccblog (at blog.incase.de)
<Boilerplate_> Of course I know if I'm going to show him these articles, he's just going to say "they're just putting him down just like Galieo for speaking the truth"
<venturecommunist> just say "and still it turns" :-)
<Boilerplate_> what does that mean? "and still it turns"?
<kilobug> venturecommunist: don't mix everything, it's a sure way to failure; Debian is about Free Software, about making a technically high-quality Free operation system, it doesn't deal with wider politics - like a civil rights or gay rights or feminist broad organisation doesn't deal directly with class struggle, even if it does attack some specific facets of it
<Boilerplate_> Of course another thing I remember hearing my Dad says "I don't care what everyone else thinks, 9/11 was a inside job and there's tons of proof of it!"
<Boilerplate_> I guess when someone says "I don't care what everyone else says" I guess they just past the threshold
<venturecommunist> Boilerplate_: allegedly galileo said it as they put him to the stake
<venturecommunist> (or as he recanted, whatever)
<venturecommunist> Boilerplate_: not true. not caring what everyone else says is very healthy when everyone says the sun revolves around the earth
<jacobian> hmmm
<jacobian> anyone want their conspiracy bone tickled?
<jacobian> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/10/nsa-asked-for-p/
<GameOver> Title: NSA Domestic Surveillance Began 7 Months Before 9/11, Convicted Qwest CEO Claims | Threat Level | Wired.com (at www.wired.com)
<kilobug> you can be right against everyone, but you've to have really exceptional evidence to do so
<venturecommunist> jacobian: didn't do much for me but i see how it could
<kilobug> "exceptional claim requires exceptional evidence", Bayes 101 ;)
* GameOver licks kilobug
<jacobian> What do you think happens when you decide to tell the NSA to fuck off :)
<venturecommunist> kilobug: here's some exceptional evidence. in every epoch, humans as a whole are all simultaneously wrong about some pretty elementary shit that some other generation/epoch will be glad to point out for them
<venturecommunist> jacobian: to be honest, i believe the NSA was listening to a phone call of mine today
<venturecommunist> a conference call
<Boilerplate_> venturecommunist: but when a conspiracy believer says it though, I think that's when they completely lost in touch with reality
<kilobug> venturecommunist: that's far from being exceptional evidence, because at every epoch, for one person who is right against everyone, there are thousands of crackpots believing in absolute non-sense which is in fact really false
<jacobian> that's pretty unrelated.
<venturecommunist> someone else mentioned it to me on the call but damned if i don't think he was actually right
<venturecommunist> kilobug: wrong. for every one person who is right against everyone, there is EVERYONE believing in absolute non-sense which is in fact really false
<kilobug> venturecommunist: completly unrealted
<venturecommunist> but witty, give me credit
<Boilerplate_> Well I notice that conspriacy theories are like looking at the abby road poster which is where they get their "evidence" from
<venturecommunist> Boilerplate_: i notice you saying "conspiracy theories" a lot
<venturecommunist> and i wanted to offer you to self-moderate when speaking to your believer parents
<venturecommunist> because the shit's not worth it
<Boilerplate_> Actually it's just my Dad who believes this shit, my Mom doens't believe in it
<venturecommunist> that's cool. i have the reverse issue
<venturecommunist> but either way
<venturecommunist> point still stands
<kilobug> that people should learn to perform a bayesian induction at early age ? definitely
<Boilerplate_> I guess conspiracy believers cannot be reasoned with but what's worse with hanging out with one is living with one.
<venturecommunist> kilobug: true
<venturecommunist> i dunno about 7. apparently 7 is when first learn that if there's a box with purple on one side and green on the other, that if they're looking at green, then the experimentor is looking at purple
<venturecommunist> Boilerplate_: i've lived with one. i live with one
<Boilerplate_> Infact I used to believe in this shit too because he drawn me into it until I got into communism/leftism is when I started questionning them
<venturecommunist> Boilerplate_: chill the fuck out. be nice to your dad
<venturecommunist> i was an anarchist at 14
<venturecommunist> i got into 9/11 trutherism too
<venturecommunist> you and i and one other guy i know ever got out
<venturecommunist> congratulations. now don't be a dick about it
<Boilerplate_> Well I am but sometimes though he drives me nuts whenever he brings this shit up though
<venturecommunist> i know me too
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: well, the best way to make someone change his mind is rarely to directly assault his belief, but more to sap the foundation of them by using seemingly unrelated topics
<venturecommunist> here's the answer. if you're confident in what you believe then just search out what intellectual value you can offer your parents
<venturecommunist> that value is not in undermining a deeply ingrained belief system, it's in expanding based on what you've got to work with
<venturecommunist> fact
<venturecommunist> i mean look at these crazy marxists for instance (jk)
<Boilerplate_> like introducing my Dad to leftism....although I think tried that before but he just goes right back where he started (90% of what he reads everytime he's on the internet are conspiracy sites)
<loyalthird> there's more to read
<loyalthird> than leftist website
<Boilerplate_> but he is recently on youtube listing to mediation videos though
<Boilerplate_> like what?
<venturecommunist> Boilerplate_: if your dad is anything like my mom the boston bombing thing was more bullshit
<Boilerplate_> Your mom believes in the Bostom Bombing conspiracy?
<venturecommunist> let's see
<venturecommunist> jfk, 9/11, pearl habor, the USS liberty
<venturecommunist> boston bombing, saddam hussein had a safety vest on when he was hanged
<venturecommunist> let's stack the pile of bullshit even higher
<loyalthird> ? never heard the saddam hussein one
<venturecommunist> osama bin laden was alive when he died
<Boilerplate_> oh yeah...the USS Liberty another conspriacy my Dad believes in...how do you debunk that?
<venturecommunist> Boilerplate_: i don't it rarely comes up
<loyalthird> there's gulf of tonkin too
<kilobug> I don't know much about the liberty
<venturecommunist> here's how i debunk everything
<venturecommunist> of course gulf of tonkin
<loyalthird> :D
<loyalthird> i feel like a troll
<venturecommunist> look, Boilerplate_
<loyalthird> sorry
<venturecommunist> you're apparently under the illusion that you're supposed to debunk this shit
<venturecommunist> you're not
<venturecommunist> you are to illustrate how beliefs form that is basically all
<Boilerplate_> Well "debunk" means "removing the bunk" though
<venturecommunist> okay well here's the thing. i've seen a lot of debunking and it's just increased the bunk
<venturecommunist> it has doubled and trebled the rebunking
<venturecommunist> which was already well bunked thank you
<Boilerplate_> That's where skeptics fail here?
<Boilerplate_> Well the differences between the Skeptic Community and Leftist community
<venturecommunist> they can call us left gatekeepers and we can call them loons but i'll tell you something magical that once happened to me
<venturecommunist> occupy wall street
<venturecommunist> people actually united in common purpose are elated
<venturecommunist> they don't react so poorly to discussions that jar their reality out of neoclassical orbit
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<venturecommunist> this spiritual shit is the real deal
<venturecommunist> anyone substituting science for common decency is to be shot on sight
<venturecommunist> but what do i know, my dog died suddenly last night
<venturecommunist> when you share the same dog as a truther you're basically responsible for their emotional well being
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<loyalthird> i still can't believe we came so close to world revolution and now we are a dead and ostracized movement
<Boilerplate_> feels like as if everything was too late and the captialists won....
<Boilerplate_> well when was that actually? the 19th century
<Boilerplate_> ?
<kilobug> loyalthird: we came so close to world revolution ? really ? if only...
<loyalthird> well, countries were becoming communist one after another at some point in history
<modulus> loyalthird: it happens, the bourgeois didn't get everything on the first round either
<modulus> but yes, it is frustrating
<Boilerplate_> I think if the Many Worlds Theory is taken to be true, then somewheree in some universe this world revolutions would have been more successful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation
<GameOver> Title: Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
<modulus> perhaps, but that doesn't help us much
<jacobian> Reality Rosa
<modulus> yes, maybe they will assault our universe
<Boilerplate_> in our world of course can't look at theirs in defeat
<jacobian> permanent multi-universe revolution!
<modulus> ^
<morganq> but we need Socialism In One Universe
<modulus> haha
<Boilerplate_> you can't have socialism in one universe you know
<modulus> well, reality rosa already have it
<modulus> they should now export the revolution
<jacobian> http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?429756-Reality-Rosa-A-world-where-Communism-works-%28GURPS-Alt-Hist%29
<loyalthird> In 1965, President Johnson commented privately: "For all I know, our Navy was shooting at whales out there."
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: not sure, quantum incertitude very rarely yield to different macroscopic results, and since you'll need something like the "mangled world" theory to get the Born rule back from MWI, it's likely those worlds in fact don't "exist"
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<jacobian> I would actually play an RPG campaign with universe contact with Reality Rosa
<kilobug> hehe
<modulus> haha
<kilobug> saddly MWI rules out any contact between the "worlds" :/
<modulus> i wonder if RR would kick arse or bw easy to toplle, given they don't have a military anymore
<morganq> inter-dimensional imperialism is the enemy of the socialist universe
<modulus> who's this hastings guy who died btw?
<jacobian> That would be depressing if RR was crushed.
<modulus> RT @srbaker: In 2005 I drunkenly released a dumb hack. It was called RSpec. You are victims on one of the biggest trolls ever committed. Youre welcome.
<modulus> lol'd
<jacobian> Our campaign should be to save RR
<kilobug> modulus: they wouldn't have a military, but since they would have been efficient in resource usage, they would be so much more advanced in science than even without military they would win a war ;)
<modulus> kilobug: it's a possibility, but maybe they would find it difficult to commit to kill people etc
<jacobian> They'd have to start a Manhattan project.
<jacobian> the universe elimination programme
<kilobug> modulus: maybe they could just unleash nanobots to cripple our weapons without harming us ?
<modulus> perhaps that'd be the role of other universe socialists. they could be their human base in exchange for material support in waging revolution in their own universe.
<Boilerplate_> Well I wonder if Bioshock infinte is accurate on any science though
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<Boilerplate_> when dealing with Quantum Mechanics (alternative universes, floating cities using quantum mechanics, etc)
<modulus> it's almost summer and i'm cold, what a bullshit year.
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: floating cities could very well be possible one day; alternative universes, under my understanding of MWI, can "exist" but we can't communicate with them, and they aren't likely to be just "what happened if Paris' Commune survived ?"
<loyalthird> ^lol
<Boilerplate_> Hmmm....maybe there is a way not to only contact but also travel to them as well
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<Boilerplate_> also time travel
* znalo promises modulus a warmer future
<modulus> heh that reminds me of the weird paper jacobian posted
<Boilerplate_> as in there maybe has to be way though
<modulus> znalo: better be
<modulus> this is really bullshit, spring was like autumn.
<jacobian> I've been wondering about gradients and optimisations lately
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: well, MWI rely on configuration space, it's not like you can "travel" to an alternative universe, an universe IS a configuration on which the wave-function is not-null, and an alternative universe is a disjoint configuration where the wavefunction is not-null
<modulus> in what context?
<jacobian> I wonder if the problem with our idea of dynamics at the quantum level is that we think everything should flow downhill
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: "communicating" or "travelling" doesn't make any sense
<jacobian> What if it's not downhill that things flow
<jacobian> What if there is a more global optimisation going on
<modulus> so then, they just flow randomly?
<modulus> ahh
<jacobian> for instance, the solution to the hanging chain problem
<kilobug> Boilerplate_: but of course, it may be something wholly different from MWI
<modulus> is this more of your teleology pushing, or something else? ;-)
<jacobian> If you try to solve that with dynamics you'll die
<jacobian> If you do it by assuming it finds the least action over the entire chain, you win
<jacobian> Yes, more teleology pushing :)
<kilobug> jacobian: well, the universe clearly doesn't look to me as if a "more global optimisation" was going on, at least until we started to reshape it
<jacobian> I realise it's a bit mental, but it keeps occurring to me that the gradient supposition is pretty arbitrary
<Boilerplate_> I mean actually phyiscally opening up a portal and traveling to those universes
<jacobian> oh I don't think I agree kilobug
<jacobian> I mean, take this for instance
<Boilerplate_> like tears from Bioshock Infinite
<jacobian> tunnelling
<jacobian> that's like a lake deciding to flow out because there is a valley down the way
<kilobug> jacobian: that's one of my main arguments against theism, the universe just doesn't look like there is global optimisation, but it really looks like there is nothing but gradient descent, short-sighted, local optimisation
<jacobian> If there is no valley, it doesn't flow out