Ray McGovern Interviewed by Peter Collins (12/19/2016)

Supplemental document for: "Theory that Roger Stone's go-between for Wikileaks was Randy Credico", link: https://wakelet.com/wake/2d352ae9-febe-44a1-a7bb-51674a2e4bf5

Excerpt from Peter B. Collins show with guest Ray McGovern, broadcast date: December 19, 2016.

Excerpt runs from 23:10 to 34:15.

File link: https://www.peterbcollins.com/2016/12/19/in-depth-interview-ex-cia-analyst-ray-mcgovern-debunks-russia-hacking-beltway-fiction/

PETER COLLINS
John Podesta, last week, he had an op-ed in the Washington Post, where he claimed all of these leaks amounted to absolutely nothing. Well, there's a lot of damaging information in there...and based on my anecdotal contact with Democrats who supported Hillary Clinton, most of them just took it hook, line, and sinker. And it's inconvenient that we have this guy Craig Murray, the former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, who was in Washington, and you were there, at the Sam Adams award ceremony, in September. And Craig Murray, by the way, I just did a search on the New York Times website, he has not been mentioned in The New York Times at all, in the last three weeks. So, they are not even...

RAY MCGOVERN
What does that tell you...[laughs]

COLLINS
...not even acknowledging that there is a competing story here. And so, Craig Murray has shared details, that, while his little encounter in the park near American University, was not a hand-off, that he did meet the American individual who was an intermediary to the insider who had leaked the Podesta emails. So, this does not exclude the possibility that Russia hacked as well; but the claim that Russia fed hacked information from the DNC and Podesta to Wikileaks, is heavily contested by Wikileaks and its allies...and that is completely scrubbed from the corporate media coverage of this story.

MCGOVERN
That's right. I know Craig Murray, he's a good friend of mine, as a matter of fact, we debated each other at the Oxford Union, he is himself, a recipient of the Sam Adams Award For Integrity In Intelligence, that was because as U.K. ambassador to Uzbekistan, he objected strongly to receiving debriefing reports based on what he knew and he saw...as torture techniques by Uzbeks instructed by friendly services like the United States, CIA. Now he objected strongly to that; matter of fact, he came known in Uzbekistan as an ambassador who cared about people who were tortured. One day, over the transom, comes an envelope with pictures of a body that was bloated, and a little note. "I am so and so's mother, this is what happened to my son." He sent it to the medical examiner in Scotland, K, Craig is Scottish. And he asked, what happened to this person? The answer came back three weeks later in the pouch, this person was boiled in water. That's what the widow told ambassador Murray. This is the kind of stuff that was going on there. And when Craig said, look, I don't want to have any information from this kind of interrogation technique...the Foreign Office said, the British Foreign Office said, "Are British people doing it?" And he said, "No, no..." "Well, who's doing it?" "Just the Americans and Uzbeks..." "Well, what's the problem? You must receive this and you must print it into your reporting." So, Craig quit, okay? That's the kind of guy he is.

It was his first ambassadorial assignment and he quit. Now, that's why we gave him the Sam Adams Award For Integrity In Intelligence, and that was in 2005, 2006, that's when he received the award, up in New York. Now, after the award ceremony, we went out and we had a terrific time. We ate and we drank. Craig is a party animal, right? Why do I say that? Because on the 25th of September, this year, when we had the latest, the fifteenth award ceremony, where we gave the award to John Kiriakou, at Key Chapel, at American University, we had asked Craig to be the emcee. And he was. He did a great job! And then after it was all over, we were all having small little finger food, we said "Okay! Let's go out and celebrate like we always do!" And Craig kindof backed up in a very unacustomed way, alone, and I said, "Craig! Coming?" And he said, "Well, maybe later..." And the last I saw Craig, he was backing up over a little hillock, into a wooded area...why am I saying all of this? [laughs] I'm saying all of this, because I know he was there, I know he did something very unusual for him, missing a party, and I know now that he claims, at American University, in a wooded area, he had contact with someone having to do with the leak. Not a hack. K? So, do I believe Craig Murray? Yes. I know he was there, I believe he had this contact, why did he have the contact? Well, I can only assume it had something to do with the source here, as Craig says, and what he told, the daily...what was it, the Daily Mail, I guess, in Britain, this week, was that it originated from a very disgruntled person, who just couldn't abide, just couldn't abide watching Hillary steal the nomination from Bernie Sanders, and couldn't abide watching the filth, the corruption that was going on, at the [Clinton] foundation. Now, Scott Horton, who does interviews-

COLLINS
I know Scott.

MCGOVERN
Yeah, he had Craig on a couple of days ago [transcript of Scott Horton interview with Craig Murray excerpt dealing with Murray's leaker theory: https://pastebin.com/wr5abmnJ], and he [Horton] said, "So, probably somebody from the intelligence community?" And Craig said, "Well, that would be consistent with what I've been saying." So, you know, source protection is really important here. I mean, look what almost happened to Ed Snowden. So, he's not able to say much...but he did say that, to Scott Horton...

COLLINS
Well, and Ray, in the Scott Horton interview, there was an interesting clarification, and some of it is inferential, because of what you just described, Murray doesn't want to give explicit answers. But what came out, what was teased out in the exchange, is that there are two different sources, the DNC leaks, that started to be published in July, came from one source, and the Podesta leak of the email, came from a different source. And it sounds like, and again, this is teasing out inferences...that one was an insider at the Democratic National Committee, and the other is likely to be an insider in the national intelligence community. And again, these are inferences, but that's the kind of clarification I picked up from the Scott Horton interview.

MCGOVERN
Yeah, I haven't talked to Scott, nor have I talked, you know, orally, to Craig. You are quite right, as far as I know, what I'm telling you now is just what McGovern deduces from this...in the interview with Scott, Craig uses the word "neither". Neither source, or neither whatever it is. So, neither suggests to me...because I'm an analyst, you know, that there are at least two. So, uh, yeah. And the timing is right. Craig is talking about late September, well, that was after the big hacking that almost disrupted the big Democratic National Convention...and was slightly before all the Podesta stuff came out. But all the rest is inference, and I don't know any better than you...but I do know one thing that struck me as incredibly curious at the time...it must be three months or so ago, if memory serves. That this fellow, first name is Seth. He worked at the Democratic National Committee.

COLLINS
Seth Rich.

MCGOVERN
Pardon?

COLLINS
His name is Seth Rich. Huh?

MCGOVERN
Yeah. Well, he worked- Young guy from Nebraska, you know. He worked at the Democratic National Committee, and he got...he got killed. Three thirty in the morning. Or thereabouts. Walking home from the office. In Washington, D.C. It was a robber. Curiously, the robber forgot to take anything from Seth Rich. So, it made it a little curious. And the D.C. police are not really good at following up on these things, if they're told "higher authority" to cease and desist. Now, why do I mention that? I mention that...because Julian Assange, uncharacteristically, commented at the time, he said, "See? This is the danger that whistleblowers encounter."

COLLINS
Mmmmhmmm.

MCGOVERN
And then...he offered, I forget, a twenty thousand dollar reward for somebody who would find out who it was that killed Seth Rich.

COLLINS
That's right.

MCGOVERN
Now, that's [inaudible] it was unique. So, what I heard, and I don't know this from Julian directly, but what I heard, I'm saying by inference, is, you know, [sighs] I really don't want to get into this, because this is a guy who is a whistleblower...and could have been, I'm thinking, well, maybe the guy who did the first [inaudible] maybe they got the wrong guy. Maybe it was his best friend. Somebody got killed for an ostensible robbery, no things stolen, and that's very curious. My guess is...that Julian would not have said those things wer e it not to be possibly linked to at least one of the leaks. And Craig was talking about neither leak was a Russian leak...well, that means [laughs] two, right? And the other one, the Podesta stuff was probably, I don't know, I'm guessing, I probably shouldn't guess...

COLLINS
Well, Craig Murray, and this is an inference, but Craig Murray in responding to Scott Horton, suggested either Seth Rich may have been the whistleblower, or may have been mistaken for him, by an enforcer of some sort. So, it certainly raises questions that aren't answered, but I think are informative as we look at the full picture here.