05:15 PM - campbell: personally i think that people should do whatever they can to push to the absolute limit, but it is very unfair if some nerd has a perscription and other people dont
05:15 PM - Sam.: eventually people will harm themselves to get the edge though
05:15 PM - Sam.: with dangerous substances
05:16 PM - Sam.: you shouldnt have to put your health at risk to compete on the same level as those who do
05:16 PM - campbell: yeah thats a good point aswell
05:16 PM - campbell: but id just love to see usain bolt on ALL THE STEROIDS
05:17 PM - campbell: see how fast a human body can go
05:17 PM - campbell: surely people have different natural chemical abnormalities that help them in certain ways as an advantage, but i suppose its not puttign their health at risk
05:18 PM - Sam.: There will always be natural inherent inequality.
05:18 PM - Sam.: Nobody is equal.
05:18 PM - Sam.: ..Except maybe twins
05:18 PM - Sam.: maybe
05:18 PM - Sam.: I don't know enough about that
05:18 PM - Sam.: Naturally I mean identical, not fraternal or w/e
05:18 PM - campbell: eh they have different experiences so
05:18 PM - Sam.: the term is
05:18 PM - Sam.: Yeah, but experience wouldnt' constitute natural inherent inequality
05:19 PM - Sam.: that would be exposure/environmental inequality
05:19 PM - Sam.: It's like the kenyans
05:19 PM - Sam.: how they live in areas with a lower oxygen amount because it's in the mountains
05:19 PM - Sam.: training with less oxygen to work with
05:20 PM - Sam.: so when they get the "normal" amount
05:20 PM - Sam.: they demolish everyone
05:20 PM - campbell: they also run the most out of everyone else to get water etc ive heard
05:20 PM - Sam.: Well
05:20 PM - Sam.: there you go
05:20 PM - campbell: yeah haha
05:20 PM - Sam.: But yeah. I don't think you can really account for natural inequality.
05:21 PM - campbell: think theres like a natural, environmental/experiential and cognitive preferance
05:21 PM - campbell: alot of factors but they are main
05:22 PM - Sam.: Drugs wouldn't fix natural inequality anyway
05:22 PM - Sam.: The person born with the advantage would still have the advantage if they both take the best drugs available.
05:22 PM - campbell: yeah exactly
05:23 PM - Sam.: I wish we could just focus on improving the base human traits
05:23 PM - Sam.: instead of taking substances to overclock what we have
05:24 PM - campbell: what would you say are the base human traits
05:24 PM - Sam.: That's a tough one. I guess it depends in what context.
05:24 PM - Sam.: From a social point of view
05:24 PM - Sam.: it would be aesthetics, personality
05:24 PM - Sam.: etc
05:24 PM - Sam.: Personality is more environment
05:24 PM - Sam.: but aesthetics would be genetic
05:24 PM - Sam.: If it were a survival point of view
05:24 PM - Sam.: it would be reflexes
05:25 PM - Sam.: muscle/bone structure
05:25 PM - Sam.: Aerobic efficiency
05:25 PM - Sam.: etc
05:25 PM - Sam.: Personally, I'd like to see improvements in the latter
05:25 PM - campbell: well we must figure out whats the most important aspects to improve to further the human condition
05:25 PM - Sam.: Improving the biological animal that is the human
05:25 PM - campbell: cause in a way thats the only thing that matters
05:26 PM - Sam.: Yeah
05:26 PM - Sam.: Personally
05:26 PM - Sam.: I think a focus on cognitive improvement
05:26 PM - Sam.: is the most important
05:26 PM - campbell: yes i agree
05:26 PM - campbell: i also think creativity, which is i suppose a subset
05:26 PM - Sam.: You and Amper both
05:26 PM - Sam.: have a thing about creativity.
05:27 PM - Sam.: Creativity is so hard to operationalize though.
05:27 PM - campbell: its extremely important
05:27 PM - Sam.: I think if you focused purely on the processing power of the human brain
05:27 PM - campbell: how do you mean? you mean its hard to define exactly what it is?
05:28 PM - Sam.: creativity would happen as a sub....something
05:28 PM - Sam.: Lost for words
05:28 PM - campbell: perhaps
05:28 PM - Sam.: Yeah. I think it's such a vague concept
05:28 PM - Sam.: It seems to have so much inherent randomness.
05:28 PM - campbell: sometimes creativity comes from something observed in environemnt and other times it comes from something completely abstract
05:28 PM - campbell: more philosophical
05:29 PM - Sam.: How would you define creativity
05:29 PM - Sam.: Give me an operational definition of what it is
05:29 PM - Sam.: Something we can work with
05:30 PM - campbell: creativity is the process in which a concept or idea is bestowed upon the mind and then extracted and copied into this world
05:30 PM - campbell: personally im very platonic
05:30 PM - Sam.: Bestowed?
05:31 PM - Sam.: So it's given by something?
05:31 PM - campbell: theres a realm in which ideas and concepts exist in perfection
05:31 PM - Sam.: Man, it's been a while since I did Plato
05:31 PM - Sam.: but I remember some
05:31 PM - Sam.: And we're just reflections of the perfection of this realm
05:31 PM - campbell: everything expressed by the mind is a representation of that idea
05:31 PM - Sam.: and as such, inperfect?
05:32 PM - Sam.: Something like that
05:32 PM - campbell: yes
05:32 PM - campbell: i think ive seen a bit of this realm
05:33 PM - campbell: and its the same thing that these ancient peoples who have developed their spirituality are very familiar with
05:33 PM - campbell: string theory suggests there are 11 different dimensions, amper tells me
05:33 PM - campbell: which is very hard to imagine
05:33 PM - campbell: especially that its an odd number makes me angry
05:34 PM - campbell: but alot of my thinking is very 'irrational' and philosophical
05:34 PM - Sam.: How does Plato's Theory of Forms fit into string theory?
05:35 PM - campbell: theres a spiritual concept of 'realms'
05:35 PM - campbell: that modern science is now learning towards
05:37 PM - campbell: in terms of the simulation hypothesis thats prevalent in quantum mechaincs that suggests we (the current theory) and the universe are just purely information, like a code, that is formed on the event horizon of a giant black hole, and all of this information is presented as a 4d hologram
05:37 PM - campbell: (im thinking of doing a philosophy of quantum mechaincs course at mit open courseware with amper)
05:38 PM - campbell: once you start delving into what is beyond this black hole then it just gets mind boggling
05:38 PM - campbell: and i enjoy my mind being boggled :P
05:39 PM - Sam.: I'm already boggled enough with what I experience
05:39 PM - Sam.: Hypotheticals will overload me. x_x
05:40 PM - campbell: hahah yeah
05:40 PM - campbell: well i dont know how we got onto this topic from transhumanism
05:40 PM - campbell: but i believe in overclocking the body in any which way possible, mainly as its impossible to transcend biology as of yet
05:40 PM - Sam.: Improving the human condition -> Cognitive focus -> Creativity -> Plato Theory of Forms -> String theory -> Quantum Mechanics
05:40 PM - campbell: except maybe with some technology
05:41 PM - Sam.: I think we should overclock the body insofar as to learn how to improve it.
05:41 PM - campbell: so we have to do whatever we can to improve cognitive functions
05:41 PM - campbell: so the first thing we have to do is understand them
05:41 PM - Sam.: As far as I'm concerned, our main goal should be understanding
05:41 PM - Sam.: And I mean, everything
05:42 PM - campbell: i agree
05:42 PM - Sam.: There's nothing else to do  http://cdn.steamcommunity.com/economy/emoticon/summerghost
05:42 PM - campbell: but understanding must also lead to creativity otherwise its meaningless
05:43 PM - Sam.: Alright. I want to focus on creativity for a bit.
05:43 PM - Sam.: Let's assume the Realm of Ideals exists
05:43 PM - Sam.: and creativity is bestowed onto man through a glimpse of this realm of perfection
05:43 PM - Sam.: Is that generally your stance towards it?
05:43 PM - Sam.: I don't want to speak for you
05:43 PM - Sam.: Or go under false premise.
05:43 PM - campbell: basically yes
05:44 PM - campbell: im sure amper has a very more practical definition of what it is and how to attain it however :P
05:44 PM - Sam.: How do we experience this realm
05:45 PM - campbell: ive thought about this alot, and have come up with a few answers that may or may not work
05:46 PM - campbell: 1. advance spirituality, eg. meditation, isolation, new experiences, perhaps a spirtual expert may teach you, train in a certain spiritual discipline and observe effects
05:46 PM - Sam.: Let's tackle them one by one
05:47 PM - Sam.: investigate
05:47 PM - Sam.: discuss
05:47 PM - Sam.: tackle was a poor term
05:47 PM - campbell: ok
05:47 PM - Sam.: Okay, how does spirituality connect us to the realm?
05:47 PM - campbell: 1 is actually quite difficult in western culture because spirituality has been destroyed
05:47 PM - campbell: in favour of materialism
05:48 PM - campbell: ive thought about going to india or tibet or something later on in life
05:48 PM - campbell: and rocking up at a bhuddist temple
05:49 PM - campbell: have conversations with monks
05:49 PM - Sam.: We're dealing with really broad, hard-to-define words.
05:49 PM - campbell: but the practical one for now
05:49 PM - campbell: is meditate
05:49 PM - campbell: learn what meditation is, how to do it correctly and then dump time into it
05:49 PM - campbell: get div 1 at it
05:49 PM - Sam.: Right.
05:50 PM - Sam.: Are we using spirituality as a broad term for "practical ways to experience the Theory of Forms"
05:50 PM - campbell: do anything that these spirtual 'prohpets' do to alter their state of mind naturally
05:50 PM - campbell: its on the practical border
05:50 PM - campbell: but its the most disciplined probably
05:51 PM - campbell: and most thoroughly accepted and revered
05:51 PM - Sam.: I have so many questions, but I'm trying to pick the relevant, core questions
05:51 PM - Sam.: Sorry if it takes me a while to pick them out.
05:51 PM - Sam.: Alright
05:51 PM - campbell: its all good :D
05:52 PM - Sam.: So we're saying meditiation is a way to "alter your state of mind naturally" which is a way to glimpse the "Realm of Ideals/Forms"
05:52 PM - Sam.: Yes?
05:53 PM - campbell: i believe so, its a way to silence environment and focus entirely on mind
05:53 PM - campbell: its said to alter brainwaves
05:53 PM - campbell: thus altered state
05:53 PM - Sam.: Firstly, a side question
05:53 PM - Sam.: Why do we need an altered state to glimpse the Realm of Ideals?
05:55 PM - campbell: well if it doesnt present itself to us in a normal state of mind, creativity is often linked to manic states of mind
05:55 PM - campbell: alot of prominent inventors etc have described some spiritual vision, a dream (the subconcious)
05:55 PM - campbell: some altered state as in they were very depressed or hypomanic
05:56 PM - Sam.: I mentioned this to Amper a while ago
05:57 PM - Sam.: but I want to run it by you also.
05:57 PM - campbell: so creativity is inherently 'difference'
05:57 PM - Sam.: I posited the idea that creativity is an illusion, and only exists in a past-context.
05:58 PM - campbell: interesting, please explain
05:58 PM - Sam.: I'll clarify, but I need to phrase it properly.
05:58 PM - Sam.: "the use of imagination or original ideas to create something; inventiveness."
05:58 PM - Sam.: That's the common definition of creativity.
05:59 PM - Sam.: This may take a second
06:00 PM - campbell: take as long as you like this is interesting
06:00 PM - Sam.: I'm trying to recall how I explained it to Amper ages ago.
06:01 PM - Sam.: Ironically, the explanation itself
06:01 PM - Sam.: was creative
06:01 PM - Sam.: Because I hadn't thought of it before. It was a processing of information in a sequence I had not encountered previously
06:02 PM - Sam.: Now, Amper explained a link between
06:02 PM - Sam.: creativity and insight
06:03 PM - Sam.: I believe that is somewhat what you're getting at with the "bestowed" word choice
06:03 PM - Sam.: You glimpse the Realm of Ideals and are given the insight to pursue a creative endeavour
06:05 PM - Sam.: fuck
06:05 PM - campbell: yeah that seems very right
06:05 PM - Sam.: My mind is going at 100 miles a minute
06:05 PM - Sam.: trying to fit words together
06:05 PM - campbell: good :D
06:05 PM - campbell: this is what we must always be like, going overdrive on thought
06:05 PM - campbell: maximise understanding
06:07 PM - Sam.: I'm going to have to tell you about my theory later
06:07 PM - Sam.: I can't find the words today.
06:07 PM - Sam.: Maybe Amper remembers
06:07 PM - Sam.: but I doubt it
06:07 PM - campbell: im sure youll think about it
06:07 PM - Sam.: Mm.
06:07 PM - campbell: glad ive given you something to think about :)
06:07 PM - Sam.: What annoys me
06:07 PM - Sam.: is that I've already done this thinking
06:07 PM - Sam.: I know I have
06:07 PM - Sam.: but I can't manage to follow the same neural pathways
06:08 PM - Sam.: that I did prior
06:08 PM - Sam.: And that annoys me.
06:08 PM - campbell: seems weird that 'creativity' can just INSTANTLY give you the words
06:08 PM - campbell: but it can take days to try to find them
06:08 PM - campbell: theres no half way point
06:08 PM - Sam.: Creativity is just a vague concept applied to original actions in the past tense.
06:08 PM - campbell: its just i have the words or dont
06:09 PM - campbell: creativity only exists in the present
06:09 PM - Sam.: You cannot proactively be creative. It's a resultant state of affairs after processing information in a way you hadn't before
06:09 PM - Sam.: That's not the ideal explanation
06:09 PM - Sam.: A poor reflection of the Form of my explanation
06:09 PM - Sam.: :)
06:09 PM - campbell: :P
06:10 PM - campbell: i guess i agree with that
06:10 PM - campbell: i think you can improve your frequency of experiencing the creative pathway
06:10 PM - Sam.: I do too.
06:10 PM - Sam.: However
06:10 PM - Sam.: I believe it can only be achieved through improving sheer processing power
06:11 PM - campbell: yes for sure
06:11 PM - Sam.: Creativity is just filling the gaps of what we already know
06:11 PM - Sam.: There are unexplored connections/equations
06:11 PM - Sam.: of information
06:11 PM - campbell: going to put down alot to power of brain waves
06:11 PM - Sam.: and when we discover these
06:11 PM - campbell: and i suppose youd credit reaction time
06:11 PM - Sam.: they're considered creative
06:11 PM - Sam.: If we improved our ability to process information
06:11 PM - Sam.: we could in theory
06:11 PM - Sam.: find these gaps quicker.
06:12 PM - Sam.: New experiences just prompts the brain to make pairings/associations/connections
06:12 PM - Sam.: that hadn't been done before
06:12 PM - Sam.: It's not a proactive endeavour, but a resultant state of finding one of these gaps due to X environmental stimuli
06:13 PM - campbell: theres still exposing yourself to new experience as often as possible
06:13 PM - campbell: i think travel is a way to be creative
06:13 PM - Sam.: I disagree, purely because my definition of creativity is different.
06:14 PM - Sam.: Travel is a good way to expose yourself to new experiences so that you can process new equations, and maybe find unexplored connections
06:14 PM - campbell: so what youre saying is that creativity is just understand information instantly?
06:14 PM - campbell: understanding*
06:14 PM - Sam.: No. I'm saying it's a concept applied to finding these gaps.
06:14 PM - Sam.: But not a workable phenomenon.
06:15 PM - campbell: hmm
06:15 PM - Sam.: I haven't entirely been clear.
06:15 PM - Sam.: I'm still vague.
06:15 PM - campbell: you have i think but its hard for me to comprehend :P
06:15 PM - campbell: very different point of view perhaps
06:15 PM - campbell: so what makes you find these gaps?
06:16 PM - Sam.: I think pure processing power has a large effect.
06:16 PM - Sam.: If you can process more information
06:16 PM - Sam.: you can connect more variables
06:17 PM - campbell: can that be related to a biological measure
06:17 PM - campbell: do you realte processing power to reaction times
06:17 PM - campbell: relate*
06:17 PM - Sam.: No
06:17 PM - Sam.: I'm trying to think of a metaphor
06:18 PM - campbell: ok, then we must try to define what processing power is
06:18 PM - Sam.: to explain how I think creativity is just an illusion of language
06:20 PM - Sam.: It's easier asking the questions than giving the answers  http://cdn.steamcommunity.com/economy/emoticon/steamsad
06:20 PM - campbell: always :P
06:20 PM - Sam.: Be right back
06:22 PM - Sam.: Back
06:22 PM - campbell: woo
06:23 PM - Sam.: I'm going to go back to basics
06:23 PM - Sam.: Insight and Creativity
06:23 PM - Sam.: 6:03 PM - Sam.: You glimpse the Realm of Ideals and are given the insight to pursue a creative endeavour
06:23 PM - Sam.: Okay
06:24 PM - Sam.: Let's say
06:24 PM - Sam.: you glimpse the realm of ideals
06:24 PM - Sam.: and are given insight
06:24 PM - Sam.: into how to make toast
06:24 PM - Sam.: Let's say that you have never made toast before
06:24 PM - Sam.: you had no idea that a toaster could be used to heat bread
06:24 PM - Sam.: to make it toast
06:24 PM - Sam.: However, everybody else already knows how to make toast
06:25 PM - Sam.: They already know how it works, and how to do it
06:25 PM - Sam.: but you don't
06:25 PM - Sam.: You've come up with this insight
06:25 PM - Sam.: but your insight is not creative
06:25 PM - Sam.: It's not creative because it's been done before
06:25 PM - Sam.: it is known knowledge
06:26 PM - Sam.: This would subject creativity to what is already known
06:26 PM - Sam.: It's a new connection for you
06:26 PM - Sam.: Unprecendented
06:26 PM - Sam.: Original
06:26 PM - Sam.: Inventive
06:26 PM - Sam.: but not for anybody else.
06:26 PM - Sam.: It's not creative because the concept is tied to the all known knowledge
06:26 PM - Sam.: Which makes it a social construct
06:27 PM - Sam.: You are perceived as creative if you attain insight into something that is not known
06:27 PM - Sam.: Whether the insight is creative or not is relevant to the known knowledge
06:27 PM - Sam.: so
06:27 PM - Sam.: How can you "be creative"
06:27 PM - Sam.: That would mean to only attain insight for the unknown
06:27 PM - Sam.: Right?
06:28 PM - Sam.: Or have I made a wrong turn
06:28 PM - Sam.: somewhere
06:28 PM - campbell: if you wanted to heat your toast and had insight into a new kind of toaster without knowing the old one exists, make it and it turns out to be somehow 10x better than the average toaster but in a way it hasnt exactly done anythign new
06:29 PM - campbell: is another kind of creativity
06:30 PM - campbell: but you are right
06:30 PM - campbell: creativity is useless unless its a new idea in some form
06:30 PM - Sam.: Creativity doesn't exist unless it's a new idea.
06:30 PM - campbell: creativity as a word implies something new
06:31 PM - campbell: something original
06:31 PM - Sam.: Yeah, it does.
06:32 PM - Sam.: Another time. I'll think it over
06:32 PM - Sam.: and get back to you.
06:32 PM - campbell: its extremely beneficial
06:32 PM - campbell: to have full understanding
06:32 PM - campbell: of the topic you want to be creative in
06:33 PM - Sam.: If you had a full understanding of the topic
06:33 PM - Sam.: There's no room to be creative in it
06:33 PM - Sam.:  http://cdn.steamcommunity.com/economy/emoticon/summerghost
06:33 PM - campbell: :P full current understanding*
06:33 PM - campbell: but then theres also art
06:33 PM - campbell: a self expression of thought and feeling
06:34 PM - campbell: creativity isnt always tangible improvement
06:34 PM - Sam.: Offtopic
06:34 PM - Sam.: but have you seen any of bo burnhams songs?
06:35 PM - campbell: havent SEEN any songs :P
06:35 PM - Sam.: ............................................................................................................................
06:35 PM - campbell: but no
06:35 PM - Sam.: Well
06:35 PM - Sam.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuF6CpML3IQ
06:35 PM - Sam.: I don't usually appreciate art
06:35 PM - Sam.: But some of his wordplay is very impressive
06:40 PM - Sam.: Will talk about this another time
06:40 PM - Sam.: I want to try to explain myself properly
06:40 PM - Sam.: if I can
06:40 PM - campbell: so much puns
06:40 PM - campbell: this is awesome
06:40 PM - Sam.: Literally all of his stuff
06:40 PM - Sam.: is the definition of creative, in art/music
06:41 PM - campbell: so envious of people who can use language like that