Discord Fountain-pens:

#Announcements:

[4:46 PM] ThereGoesMinky: So everyone is aware, our recruitement post keeps being falsely reported by the other Discord group in order to get it removed. They also keep leaving harassing messages on the original that they edit as soon as they are reported. I'm working with the mods of the subreddit to try and resolve this issue. For folks who are new around here, know that we don't tolerate that kind of behavior in this server. It's one of the main reasons we have a separate server to begin with. We work hard to keep this a kind and respectful place for everyone. If anyone ever feels uncomfortable in this space for whatever reason, please report it to the mod team.

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Conversation between Laxaria and Minky:


[4:53 PM] Laxaria: Hey

[4:54 PM] Laxaria: I really don't feel that your post in #announcements was appropriate. Calling out other people in other Discord servers isn't really a good first impression. Reddit specifically flags posts that have been edited after their 3 minute grace period with an "edited" text-flag, and there is really only one or two posts in the recruitment thread that show this, so the assertion that people are editing their posts after saying something inflammatory feels a bit unwarrented.

[4:55 PM] Laxaria: I don't think it is necessary to air any grievances towards others in an announcements channel, more so when it has limited relevance to users on the server

[5:23 PM] ThereGoesMinky: When mods have enough people asking them why they can’t find the post any longer, we make an announcement. It also doubles as setting an expectation of tone for this server.That kind of behavior won’t be tolerated here. Plain as that.

The mods have spent the day reporting incredibly vitriolic comments that kept popping up every few minutes and then being edited under your designated three minute mark, in addition to people attempting to imitate this discord with false links. This is a recurring issue that extends back to when this server was created, and we are being transparent about it.

[5:25 PM] Laxaria: I don't really see how letting people know that others are shitting on this server is particularly productive. It's not something that community members need to know, and I worry about inciting any potential retaliatory attack. It is possible to impress upon people what behaviour is expected of them without saying that their behaviour should not be like this ancillary group making these comments.

[5:30 PM] Laxaria: At least from my point of view, the burden of proof is more often than not placed on the one making the claim. Without evidence to substantiate claims such as "our recruitement post keeps being falsely reported by the other Discord group in order to get it removed" or "also keep leaving harassing messages on the original that they edit as soon as they are reported", I am skeptical, just by pure nature of the process. Providing evidence to support the claim will more likely than not lead to a witch hunt. Opting not to shows speculation and finger pointing. I don't think it is necessary for any of these statements to be made to impress upon server members the expected behaviour of them.

[6:19 PM] ThereGoesMinky: The announcement was cleared by the mod team and has their full support. I have shared your comments with them and they stand behind it. We want people to be aware of what is going on and to know that we are taking steps to deal with an issue that persists. We are trying to foster a community that can be respectful and free from the sort of behavior being exhibited by certain individuals from the other server. New members should know that the types of comments they are encountering on our sub posts are not representative of this community. There’s really nothing else to discuss with regards to this topic.

[6:20 PM] Laxaria: In that case, I want proof that the posts are falsely reported by members of the other Discord group and proof that these harassing comments were made.

[6:45 PM] ThereGoesMinky: The specifically reported messages and actions of others are relevant to moderators of the subreddit and moderators of this server, as they are the ones who have to handle it. This is not wikileaks. And frankly, the mods and I are unsure why you keep seeming to want to stir the pot. Just be nice to people. The rest is being handled by the appropriate parties.

[6:57 PM] Laxaria: > And frankly, the mods and I are unsure why you keep seeming to want to stir the pot. Just be nice to people.

I have (a) Directly contacted you and (b) Opted not to make this an issue within a server channel specifically because i don't want to involve other people. I feel that I've been generally pleasant enough on the server. Please do not take my position of being skeptical about claims being directed at others without evidence as a personal attack against you or any other moderator on the server; as stated, just by pure personal preference of how I prefer things done, claims not supported by evidence is opinion at best.

From my own personal experiences moderating and administering communities, if the goal is to encourage members to be nice to each other, it is not necessary to also say that people of other places are being inflammatory.

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Afterwards, Laxaria was removed from the server that ThereGoesMinky administers, with no explanation of what the removal was conducted.

A few hours later, Laxaria spoke with a moderator of the Discord Server:


[9:30 AM] Monkey: Kso. To my knowledge the removal is not about voicing a private opinion but due to the very negative public opinions expressed about the server, combined with the hostile tone of a week ago re: lurkers. This is added with the fact that some members had contacted the admin about feeling uncomfortable with some behaviors they'd been seeing, from several people, and that they didn't want to be around the server due to that. The server is meant to be a very relaxed friendly atmosphere, free of drama, hence some difficult decisions were made.

[9:32 AM] Laxaria: The negative opinion I expressed a week ago was a week ago. Deferring removal for a week out of that feels quite like a personal vendetta against me.

[9:32 AM] Laxaria: Secondly, I'm a bit disappoitned that instead of trying to reach out to me to see if my behaviour could be changed or if I could tone done whatever people were uncomfortable about, I was removed with no explanation.

[9:34 AM] Laxaria: I want to point out that my removal was done after voicing my opinion privately. I am inclined to believe that my doing so was a reason for the removal, if any existing measures weren't already enough.

[9:35 AM] Monkey: It wasn't deferred a week but an additional thing, ya know. About not msging first, yeah, I think Minky wasn't sure what would be best, just quiet or saying something, because I think she feared that sending a msg would only result in more hostility

[9:35 AM] Laxaria: I'm sorry, but how is voicing an opinion in a private message an additional thing to merit removal? Is dissent of any kind enough of a warrent to break a rule?

[9:36 AM] Monkey: It was also publicly thrown about on the other server, and there's a fair handful of people on both who saw that.

[9:36 AM] Laxaria: My impression right now is that I was to be removed because I had a hostile tone to a change in how the community was managed. However, this was not done at that point in time, and at no point was I contacted to improve my behavour.

[9:36 AM] Laxaria: I do not think behaviour in other servers should by itself be a metric to remove someone in a related but separate community.

[9:37 AM] Laxaria: I don't think you can expect an insular community on one server and then "spy" on another to make decisions.

[9:38 AM] Monkey: If it's totally unrelated behavior, I agree, but trashtalking one in another is kinda... ehh. And I'd be hard pressed to call it spying when people belong to & participate in both

[9:39 AM] Laxaria: So my participation in your community is fully contingent on me abiding by your rules even outside of your community's boundaries?

[9:39 AM] Monkey: If by following rules you mean "not trashtalking it"...

[9:40 AM] Laxaria: Please post the ruleset
[9:40 AM] Laxaria: and show me where it says "not trashtalking it"
[9:40 AM] Laxaria: then show me where I trashtalked the server.

[9:40 AM] Monkey: It's kinda shitty to belong to a community and then talk crap about it elsewhere
[9:40 AM] Monkey: Especially when there are people who belong to both
[9:40 AM] Monkey: Why the drama?

[9:40 AM] Laxaria: I did not initiate this drama, and this would have been a non-issue if Minky did not go out of her way to explicitly claim that other people in other places are causing problems.

[9:41 AM] Laxaria: Instead of just letting it be and not making a big deal about it, Minky decided to flag it out, and I don't think this is how an administrator should manage a community.

[9:42 AM] Monkey: Personally, I am inclined to agree that the announcement wasn't really necessary, but she had her reasons and I can understand them

[9:42 AM] Laxaria: I'm confused. Minky explicitly told me that the announcement was cleared by the moderators.

[9:42 AM] Laxaria:
        [6:19 PM] ThereGoesMinky: The announcement was cleared by the mod team and has their full support. I have shared
        your comments with them and they stand behind it.
[9:42 AM] Laxaria: This was what she told me.

[9:42 AM] Monkey: I was sleeping at the time, others were on, and like I said, I understand her reasoning.

[9:43 AM] Laxaria: So there was not unaminous support from the moderating team when she made that statement?

[9:43 AM] Monkey: Just because it wouldn't have been something I would have done on my own doesn't mean I can't support her reasoning for doing so.

[9:44 AM] Laxaria: Regardless, so where does this leave us now?

[9:44 AM] Monkey: Well, I mean, do you actually want to be in that server, without hostility?
[9:45 AM] Monkey: If you do, I can talk to Minky

[9:45 AM] Laxaria: I don't particularly have an issue with being in that server, but I also don't feel that my behaviour outside of that community should have bearing on whether I should or should not be in it.

[9:46 AM] Monkey: I agree with that in general terms, but again, not when it comes to being in both and then saying shit about it in the other. Just like I'd have a problem with someone talking negatively about the other one in that one.

[9:47 AM] Laxaria: But that had already happened

[9:47 AM] Laxaria: Minky is slinging drama at the other server with her announcement.

[9:49 AM] Monkey: No, she wasn't implicating the entire server, but there were at least a couple people who were doing stuff on the sub who it's pretty much a given belong to the other server

[9:49 AM] Laxaria: There is no indication that the entire server was not implicated in her statement.
[9:49 AM] Laxaria: > So everyone is aware, our recruitement post keeps being falsely reported by the other Discord group in order to get it removed. They also keep leaving harassing messages on the original that they edit as soon as they are reported.

[9:50 AM] Monkey: Her point in the announcement was to let new people who had seen those comments, know that that's not how things are in there. Had I been on, I would have suggested a different phrasing, but

[9:51 AM] Laxaria: And as I stated in my private opinion, it is not necessary to make such claims while still impressing that that kind of behaviour is not tolerated.

[9:52 AM] Laxaria: My ultimate point here really is that I feel I have been unwrongly and unjustly removed from a community because I perceive a personal vendetta and dissent towards me, that instead of working with me as a member, that I am treated as a criminal. The reasoning seems weak, and this is not how community leadership should behave or lead.

9:56 AM] Monkey: I can understand where you're coming from with your opinion on the announcement. But, all I can tell you is there's not a vendetta. It was seen as a culmination of things. If you want to rejoin, as I said, I have no problem discussing it with Minky, so long as it's clear that talking crap about either server in either location isn't cool, and I don't mind discussing the announcement wording with her, either, as being slightly inciteful as well.

[9:57 AM] Laxaria: Please point out where I was talking crap about your server in the other one.

[9:57 AM] Monkey: Well, I suppose it was technically talking crap about Minky's running of the server?

[9:57 AM] Laxaria: Please point out where I was talking crap about your server in the other one.

[10:02 AM] Laxaria: I hold no personal vendetta against you. I am firm here purely because of how claim making works; that if you want to assert that my behaviour was against some ruleset, I feel that it would be appropriate to provide some examples or evidence to justify that claim.

[10:04 AM] Monkey: You accused her of "starting a witch hunt," saying there was "unwise finger pointing," that it didn't matter if people had been vitriolic or harassing - that evidence needed to be furnished, etc. This isn't a court of law, it's just a friendly hangout. I know when I last looked there was still at least one dickish comment on the post in the sub.

[10:05 AM] Laxaria: My exact words were

[10:05 AM] Laxaria:
        [6:27 PM] Laxaria: I know that some people here are also in the other server. I will say this: Starting a witch
        hunt and pointing fingers at other people is a very easy way to increase tensions and cause inflammatory
        retaliation.
        [6:38 PM] Laxaria: but like finger pointing like that is just not a wise thing to do
        [6:38 PM] Laxaria: Even if some people here were being incredibly vitirolic, retaliating that way doesn't resolve
        the matter, IMO.
[10:05 AM] Laxaria:
        [6:38 PM] Laxaria: I don't know if people were being harassing or inflamattory in the first place; no evidence was
        furnished to substantiate it

[10:06 AM] Laxaria: You yourself already agreed above that the statement was poorly phrased.

[10:06 AM] Monkey: You don't have to agree with every choice Minky makes or everything she says, naturally. But going around publicly talking crap about things you disagree with is only stirring up drama

[10:07 AM] Laxaria: Can you explain to me how commenting on a public announcement issued by Minky on a different server constitutes stirring up drama? I do hope I am free to comment with my thoughts, even if they are sometimes dissenting.

[10:10 AM] Monkey: Well, I mean, you saw all the comments along with yours, too. Just saying "I don't think X was the best choice of words" is one thing, but carrying on about witch hunts and retaliation and evidence etc...

[10:10 AM] Laxaria: And has my comments made here not come true?
[10:11 AM] Laxaria: At least one person removed from a server in response.
[10:11 AM] Laxaria: Making an announcement with an accusatory tone resulted in reaction, and the reaction resulted in action taken to remove community members.

[10:12 AM] Laxaria: None of this would have originated if Minky did not decide to make such public comments. It could have stopped at her, with no need to make an issue out of the matter even if people were being inflammatory, but retaliating in this way was unwarranted, and the continued retaliation feels like a personal vendetta.

[10:14 AM] Laxaria: I would be appreciative if you wish to talk to her, but I don't think holding me to your community's ruleset outside of your community's boundaries is an appropriate thing place on me. I can concede that however, if leadership improvements will be made to the server and these kinds of actions don't happen any more.

[10:14 AM] Monkey: It wasn't retaliation though. Her announcement, whether the wording is agreed with or not, was made only to let new people know that's not how things are. I understand where you're coming from, but it wasn't made as a spiteful thing.

[10:15 AM] Laxaria: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[10:15 AM] Monkey: Hah. Truth.

[10:17 AM] Laxaria: I will add, that I have been moderating communities for a very long time. On Kongregate, on a large Minecraft PvP server that seems to be somewhat defunct now (averaging about 100k+ unique users a month), in other communities and I still moderate a subreddit. I feel that the decisions that have transpired have not been made well, and I feel that improvement should be made in this regard. It is not a good sign that controversy is consistently raised in such short time spans.

[10:22 AM] Monkey: I was there, trying to have a rational discussion, as was Minky. Some other people were there flooding the chat with potatoes and other nonsense making it rather difficult for anyone to accomplish much of anything.

[10:23 AM] Laxaria: I absolutely disagree, based off my 10+ years of moderating. Things could have been done to tell people to chill. Telling people to stop, issuing warnings, talking to them privately to ask them to tone down their behaviour, directing the conversation to a different channel where it would be less bothersome for everyone in the channel, were all possible actions.(edited)

[10:27 AM] Laxaria: Anyway, this conversation has meandered. I would be appreciative of you talking to Minky, but I do not feel I should be held to the standards of your community's ruleset outside of the boundaries of your community. I feel that decision making should be more measured and that leadership of the community could be improved. I am ambivalent about joining the community, but I do hope that what has been said thus far would be helpful for the community going forward.