Nixon Haldeman Talk Watergate Strategy May 20 1973

Introduction and majority of transcript is from Stanley Kutler's Abuse of Power.

Audio file for conversation is at nixonlibrary.gov:
http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape167/167-010.mp3

Video clip on youtube features audio with accompanying transcript:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvHIt0RnibM

MAY 20, 1973: THE PRESIDENT AND HALDEMAN, 12:26-12:54 P.M., CAMP DAVID TELEPHONE
The President decides to counterattack forcefully and deny any use of the CIA for the cover-up. He plans to invoke images of the turbulent days of protest and violence in the 1960s. The conversation centers on Nixon and Haldeman's coordinating their stories. They discuss the Huston plan, and again, the President expresses concern about keeping Ehrlichman on the reservation.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hello?

OPERATOR: Mr. Haldeman.

HALDEMAN: Hello?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hi Bob. How was your church today? You didn't get followed?

HALDEMAN: No, they got me at home, before I went.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I'll be Goddamned. (laughs) What did they get you there about?

HALDEMAN: Oh, they just wanted to ask about the CIA stuff and the, I don't know, whatever was in the news. I don't pay much attention to the questions because I don't answer them.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Right. That's good.

HALDEMAN: Same thing—I did get a chance—they raised—I made my usual pitch about, you know, that I'm cooperating fully and that I know when the truth is known, you know, it's all going to clear it up. And then they said something about, well, did the President know anything about the [Richard] Helms meeting or something like that. And I said, as I said before, I'm not going to comment on any specific questions. I can't tell you flatly and categorically that the President had absolutely no knowledge or involvement in any kind of cover-up or anything else related to the Watergate in any way, shape or form.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Good.

HALDEMAN: And I said, I'm sure that will become totally clear to you as the facts are known.

PRESIDENT NIXON: The general statements are the best to make.

HALDEMAN: And I just left it at that. I'm not going to get into—

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right.

HALDEMAN: —the specifics at this point.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. We'll get into that. Look, I don't want to hold you if you were just going to have lunch or something. Do you got about a couple of minutes? I can go over three or four and nail them down.

HALDEMAN: Sure.

PRESIDENT NIXON: What we're planning to do, first, with regard to the—I'm planning probably to meet with the leaders including—bipartisan leaders—including Armed Services Committee. And I'm going to put out all of the national security kind of stuff which incidentally is going to be very helpful, not so far from your standpoint, but from John's [Ehrlichman] standpoint because I'm going to take—say that I ordered the plumbers operation, that I ordered the meeting. I'm going to say that I directed that you and John meet with Helms and Walters for the purpose of seeing whether the CIA was involved and so forth and so on. I think this is a good idea. Don't you think so?

HALDEMAN: Absolutely. I think it's essential.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah, well, you see the point is-

HALDEMAN: -that way you can clear-

PRESIDENT NIXON: -it's the truth.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And also we put the issue out where it belongs, that you're Goddamn right we had a meeting and so forth.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And so forth. You see, the only difficulty—well, the difficulty with the so-called Helms, I mean, the memoran—I mean, Walters' memcoms is an indication that—is the follow-up of Dean's, you see, where he went and asked for cover because the implication there would be that you and John and, of course, then the President, that we set up this whole Goddamn thing for the purpose of getting the CIA to put a cover on this and so forth which is not the truth.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And John [Ehrlichman] flatly will testify to that effect or has, I assume. I just want to be sure you know that we don't put anything in this statement that is not—

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: —papers that is going to be at all contrary to what he says. Perhaps you and John have talked about it. You had your meeting, but the purpose of the meeting was the four things that you mentioned.

HALDEMAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: We'll get that in. I think that's a very good thing to do. We're working on that today.

HALDEMAN: Good.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I'm gonna slap it to them hard, and tell them why we did it.

HALDEMAN: Well, that's the only answer on this, now.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Go on the offensive.

HALDEMAN: Do it exactly that way.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right.

HALDEMAN: Because it's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And the whole Plumbers operation, I'm going to take that. Also, I want you—I deliberately am only calling you because I don't want to talk to John.

HALDEMAN: He's out of town, he's out in California.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And obviously, I don't want to talk to Colson, but I want to talk to you because I think you can follow through better than anybody else. Tell John he need have no question, I will take sole, complete responsibility, for putting a national security cover on this. Also...see, I called Petersen [Henry Petersen, Assistant Attorney General], on the 18th, at John's suggestion. And told him, look, you can question Hunt about anything, about Watergate. But you must not get into national security matters. And I told Petersen that since.

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: So...and that'll stand up. I mean, because as Petersen says the important thing is you did get the information out there before the trial was over...

HALDEMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Also, he said the important thing is, as you told me on the phone, is none of the information obtained in this so-called operation ever got to the prosecution.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Which is what John will also remember.

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But those recollections...

HALDEMAN: Yeah. Well, that's all solid, I'm sure.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Second point, on the famous Dean papers, you'll be interested—pleased to know that we've got that nailed down on all four corners [news of the Huston Plan].

HALDEMAN: Good.

PRESIDENT NIXON: The go order was issued by you, I mean, you and carried out by Huston on one day and then 24-48 hours later a no order was issued, and everybody—and we have affidavits on that and some have notes on it that they have the no order. The other point is that nothing whatever was done by any of the agencies involved.

HALDEMAN: That's what I thought.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You know, what I mean is there were no break-ins, there were no so forth and so on, even though that sort of thing was in the damn paper. But the main point is, as far as we're concerned, you see what happened here is, this thing, this paper took two months for them to write.

HALDEMAN: Yeah, I remember that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And then it came in to me, and I had...and I said, alright, fine, we'll go forward with it. Let's go forward. And then Hoover objected on two counts, and my recollection is Mitchell probably called me...but I'm not going to say that, because I don't know what the hell Mitchell will say.

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't want to get him in it. I'm just going to say because of his [Mitchell's] objections, therefore...we put a no order. But that sounds pretty good, doesn't it? I mean, it's the truth, but-

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You have nothing-

HALDEMAN: I recall nothing that would in any way not go along with that. Because, as I told Haig, when he first told me about it, the only thing I could remember about it, was that...everything that I could recall was, nothing had been done.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's correct. Well, we've had Buzhardt-

HALDEMAN: I knew Hoover-

PRESIDENT NIXON: We've had Buzhardt check the damn thing from A to Z, and nothing was done. That we know. Far as we know. Now, of course some asshole may have done something we don't know anything about-

HALDEMAN: You are going to cover that, though?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh hell, yes.

HALDEMAN: That's great, that way you'll be out ahead-

PRESIDENT NIXON: And we're gonna put out the whole damn statement, too.

HALDEMAN: Good.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Now, it's a rough one. I mean, not rough on us so much, but it's rough in terms of these agencies recommending everything from surreptitious entry to—

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: —bugging to everything else. Yet the point is—

HALDEMAN: But it was signed by all of them.

PRESIDENT NIXON: They all recommended it.

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: It was unanimous.

HALDEMAN: Well, that's good because that shows the tenor of the times.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

HALDEMAN: That needs to be done.

PRESIDENT NIXON: It needs to be done, Bob. Also, I'll point out the plumbers thing. Why we did it, that we had massive leaks and that I had given orders to all departments to do everything that they could and at the White House we developed the capability to do what we could there.

HALDEMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And that everything that we did there was on that. Now on that point, just a couple of things to nail down. I want to be sure because I don't want to do a damn thing that would be at all harmful or inconsistent with what you or John may have recalled and, therefore, have testified to. I have no recollection of John ever telling me about the unsuccessful break-in or whatever it was until after, I mean, until we got into the March period.

HALDEMAN: The psychiatrist?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yes. And I don't know what his recollection is. Do you know?

HALDEMAN: That's what I recall, too, but I can check it with him.

PRESIDENT NIXON: The point is that he once said that he thought that I knew and I don't remember. I have no recollection of his coming in and saying, look, Krogh's or the group did this. Do you know what I mean? You see, John says that, you know, Krogh stood up like a man and took the blame for it, and said Ehrlichman had done it, but I don't remember Bob- John, ever telling me what there was an unsuccessful break-in to a psychiatrist's office, and you should know it. Will you nail that one down for me, because I don't want to say it unless it's true.

HALDEMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You know what I mean?

HALDEMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: If I had to know. What I meant is, I don't want John to get up and testify to the effect, well, I told the President something.

HALDEMAN: Okay.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't think he would. That's because I don't think he did tell me, my point is. But he's never discussed that with you, you've never been specific on that?

HALDEMAN: The only thing I can remember on it was, I didn't know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No, I didn't-

HALDEMAN: You did at some point, because you knew about that picture.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah, that was in March, though.

HALDEMAN: Oh, was it. Okay.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. We heard about this damn picture, and we heard about it from Dean.

HALDEMAN: Because, see, I didn't know about that, and you must have been told about it some time when I wasn't there, because that came as a surprise to me later when someone told me about it, and I raised it, and you said, yeah, you had heard about it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Heard about the picture.

HALDEMAN: Heard about John or somebody, I think. Or maybe from Justice.

PRESIDENT NIXON: When did you raise it with me?

HALDEMAN: That would probably be in April.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I see. Well. Get this nailed for me, you get the facts, I don't want you to get too many hands here. If you could do it, then I could- The third point is, be sure to reassure John that I'm taking total responsibility on this, so he can- See, he has, very properly, told the Grand Jury that he won't testify with regard to national security matters. I told Petersen that, too, on the Hunt thing. And I'm saying that, you know what I mean, I'm not backing down off of that one Goddamn inch. Don't you agree?

HALDEMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: The third point is, and you already told me, but I just want to be sure, there's nothing that you've said or anything...I was not told about the three-fifty transaction until March, is my recollection. And if you testify to something else, I, of course, I-

(natsec redacted)

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, alright, okay.

HALDEMAN: I think at some point in March, when this- when Dean had told you about our concern-

PRESIDENT NIXON: He'd said Bob, got a problem.

HALDEMAN: I think I told you then, that I could see why he would feel that, because there was this question.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That may have been part of the March 23rd thing, it may have been earlier in March-

HALDEMAN: It was in that period.

PRESIDENT NIXON: It was in the period-

HALDEMAN: It was probably later.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Whatever. Or it may have been March 21st. The other point is, that I need to, some recollection on the part of John, is on this issue of clemency. I have said, you know, that I, and Ziegler has said, that I never authorized anyone to offer clemency. Now that's a flat statement and that is true. I never did. The question is...they said, well, whether or not anybody ever discussed it with me. The only recollection I have of any discussion was...which John reminded me of, was on the beach in June or July just before we went over to there and it was only for a minute. He said, you know, looking down the road, one of the problems we're going to have is that I imagine—he says I would imagine these fellas will want clemency and then I said, well, we'll have to face that when we come to it, or words to that effect. All I need to know is this-

HALDEMAN: Whether that's a correct re-collection.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No, the main point is this. Dean had made this preposterous statement to the effect that they talked about clemency and that John Ehrlichman walked into the Oval Office, then came back and said you can offer clemency but don't be too specific. The President says so.

HALDEMAN: John totally denies that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Does he deny that?

HALDEMAN: Yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: The other point is whether or not we discussed it and so forth.

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: As far as the meeting with Colson...I told you about that, when he just mentioned that just tangentially again, Hunt, only Hunt, he didn't mention the others, but Hunt, with Hunt's wife being killed in an accident, and I said, well, that was a factor that certainly could be considered. That, you know, that would have to be considered at the time, but this was not the time. Colson, now, I think, backs that all that up a hundred percent. I don't know. You don't know either?

HALDEMAN: I don't know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, don't you bother with that. I'll handle that.

HALDEMAN: I can't. Because I gotta stay clear-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Nono. Stay clear. Fine.

HALDEMAN: But I think you're right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. That was- Do you ever recall, or John, discussion of clemency-

HALDEMAN: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: If so, we'd have been talking about it, wouldn't we? The whole clemency thing came up-

HALDEMAN: Until you got into it March-ish-

PRESIDENT NIXON: You see, I think Caulfield's [Jack Caulfield, a private investigator they worked with], Caulfield's talking to so and so-

HALDEMAN: That came from Dean, obviously.

PRESIDENT NIXON: It seemed to me that it did.

HALDEMAN: I think that's going to come out clearly in Caulfield's testimony.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, do you?

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He was told that Dean, that Dean, of course, was told by Ehrlichman. Of course, that's the way that Dean would say it.

HALDEMAN: Yeah, he's going to have a tough time with that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. Yeah. The way that I piece this together, Bob, is it wasn't Dean told by Ehrlichman, but Dean was told by Mitchell.

HALDEMAN: I think you're probably right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I think that Mitchell is the fellow that, you know, had the greatest stake there and he was telling them to promise the Goddamn clemency and Mitchell, believe me, never talked to me about it. What he will say, I don't know. But I never recall any conversation with Mitchell about it. None whatever. None whatever. In fact, Mitchell to his credit never discussed it.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't remember.

HALDEMAN: I don't think he would.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No.

HALDEMAN: I think he just, probably, the way it looks now, I think he just probably told them to go ahead and do it.

HALDEMAN: I note one other thing in the paper that I assume your people are aware of that you ought to cover probably is there's a story that high officials in the Pentagon, CIA and State Department were subjected to lie-detector test during the White House investigation into leaks. That's true, you know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I know. Sure.

HALDEMAN: And I think you ought to say so.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Absolutely. Absolutely.

HALDEMAN: That fits right in with the rest of it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right. Oh, listen, Bob, I have a call-

HALDEMAN: We knew some of them were lying.

PRESIDENT NIXON: All of that we stand solidly with. As a matter of fact, the India-Pakistan, that's the way that was broken. Although that's the one we've got to bury forever, because of the chiefs. Nevertheless, that doesn't bother me a bit, the lie-detector thing, you'll see. You're damn right we did. Yes, sir.

HALDEMAN: It gives you one more chance to—

PRESIDENT NIXON: Get the national security.

HALDEMAN: Lead to something, yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: The national security thing.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. And let these people squeal about it. The other point is that I wish you would get clarification from John on...I have no recollection of John or you ever asking me, and I mentioned this to you the other day, about whether you could call Kalmbach, you know, at that time.

HALDEMAN: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And I don't know where you've testified to that John has or so forth. Do you know?

HALDEMAN: I'm sure that he has no thought of that because we've gone over that in considerable detail and that point never came up. That wasn't even a factor, but I'll check it specifically.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't recall his ever talking to me. And the other point of course is, I don't know whether I ever talked to Kalmbach. I'm just wondering if possibly he called me or some damn thing.

HALDEMAN: I don't think so.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That I don't know.

HALDEMAN: I just can't imagine it, because this wasn't that big a deal.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't think it was.

HALDEMAN: A routine okay of, if it were alright for him to-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, we'll have to have somebody else talk to Kalmbach. See whether, how he got what he did...so forth...John probably knows because John had a long talk with Kalmbach in April when he was conducting his-

HALDEMAN: Lemme ask him.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. Because I don't recall Kalmbach ever asking me about it. Frankly I learned that Kalmbach was doing it in March. Understand, I'm not trying to get off of it, because I think it was proper, I think the three fifty is proper, the question of knowledge, is whether I have knowledge, I have to be sure.

HALDEMAN: I don't think you did.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But I need to know on that point, what it was.

HALDEMAN: Kay.

PRESIDENT NIXON: So, with John, the fact of the matter is...and as far as you recall, the meeting with Walters, the four points we were concerned about were, one, the fact that some of these people had been involved in the Bay of Pigs.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Two, the fact that there were reports that Mexican money was involved.

HALDEMAN: I don't really recall that. But I don't deny it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That, apparently, is it. Well, I don't know. Well, let's see, what were the other points.

HALDEMAN: There was talk. The basic question is, was the CIA involved?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yes.

HALDEMAN: Had they been involved—

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yes.

HALDEMAN: —is one point. The next point was the question of the FBI concerned about asking for guidance on an investigation and we did say that they should limit the investigation to the Watergate involvement of these people because there was concern about other activities in the national security area that had been done in the past.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Right.

HALDEMAN: —carried out by these people totally unrelated to Watergate.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's exactly right, and that's what we intend to say.

HALDEMAN: And then the question, I guess, of the Mexican money came up. I don't remember. At that point, if it did, we didn't know what that was all about and the question was, was that a CIA thing. And then the question was, their concern about the Bay of Pigs business with some of these people.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, of course, this whole thing is so damn ridiculous, in one sense, that, as I said to you, if we were going to do it that way, why in the name of God did we have Helms in the meeting?

HALDEMAN: Well, that's right. Of course, we can't say that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No, but uh-

HALDEMAN: We know inside.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And, well, we know inside, damnit Bob, we're not trying to lie here.

HALDEMAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: We're telling the truth. And this lurid scheme of having them on the payroll and so forth, had John ever heard of that before?

HALDEMAN: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Had you?

HALDEMAN: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You never heard about this?

HALDEMAN: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I'd never heard of this, John. That was a brand new one to me. That again might have come out of Mitchell, you think? Or Dean.

HALDEMAN: Or he [Ehrlichman] himself.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Could have. I dunno.

HALDEMAN: That- I didn't-

PRESIDENT NIXON: I guess the two critical points are, one, what John, if anything, is going to say with regard to having discussed clemency.

HALDEMAN: Right. I'll check that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Two, whether-

HALDEMAN: The question of the Kalmbach call. Whether he ever knew about it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Whether he or Kalmbach, whether they informed me. You know what I mean. Whether I approved.

HALDEMAN: And the question of the Ellsberg [psychiatrist] break-in.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And the question of whether I was informed of the psychiatrist break-in. You see, because if I was informed, then, frankly, I am derelict for...I mean, they can blame John, but they also have to blame me for not firing Hunt and that bunch then, you see. You see, that's the real question there. But Bob, I don't...I just can't imagine that I would have known of such a jackass thing without doing it, but I don't want—if John testifies to the fact that he told me—

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I've got to know that, see.

HALDEMAN: We'll find out. I don't think he does but I'll check it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. And I would—I'm sure it's not true. I'm sure it's not true. And if he hasn't testified, I would hope he wouldn't. But with all your other problems, if you could weigh into those. Those are the loose ends here and I can assure you the statement is going to be a humdinger.

HALDEMAN: Great.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And it's going—it's going to lay it all out there...On the national security thing, . . . I'm going to defend the bugging.

HALDEMAN: Yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I'm going to defend the bugging. I'm going to defend the Plumbers. I'm going to defend—not only defend, I'm going to say why we did it. And I'm going to say why we tried to keep this out of the—out of the Watergate. And that was that. But these other questions, are questions on Watergate, I don't know-

HALDEMAN: Henry's [Kissinger, regarding telephone taps on reporters and NSC staff] got to shift to a positive attitude on all this, too.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Henry?

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, he will.

HALDEMAN: And they're trying to make him out as being so deeply concerned about the morality of this and all that. That's a lot of baloney. And he's got to get off of that and get onto the thing of the—

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, Haig is—

HALDEMAN: —with—with the question of leaking the stuff out.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Haig is being—going to be very tough on them when he gets back.

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: If Henry—Henry wants to be—talk about morality, I mean we've got him nailed six ways to one.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Because you remember, Bob?

HALDEMAN: Oh, yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Who the hell was pushing for this stuff?

HALDEMAN: Absolutely.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Who was squealing the most about the leaks? You know, about these NM, NM—I mean the—

HALDEMAN: Yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: —NSSMs [National Security Study Memoranda] and so forth.

HALDEMAN: Yes, right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I didn't give a shit about the NSSMs.

HALDEMAN: But he was right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah, I know he was right.

HALDEMAN: He was right in squealing about it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I know. What I meant is, though, he can't say now whether it was moral or immoral to bug these Goddamn people, how else are you going to get the leaks? And that's what we were trying to do.

HALDEMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, on the more positive side, you'd be interested to know that Henry's having a pretty good meeting in Paris.

HALDEMAN: Good.

PRESIDENT NIXON: We may get about seventy percent of the ceasefire re-instated.

HALDEMAN: Great.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He thinks we'll announce it by Friday. Second, the POW thing is going to come off. The big tent's...Third, we got a fantastic welcome in Norfolk, in Virginia, God, eighteen thousand people, screaming and hollering, and so forth and so on, and not one whiff about Watergate. Of course, this thing is, of course, pervasive in the country and it affects our politicians more than anybody else. It affects the press, it hurts. But on the other hand, when people talk about this business of confidence and so forth, the stock market and so forth, all of that has a lot to do with the same syndrome we went through in Cambodia, and all the other things.

HALDEMAN: It's the same group.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And also the same agents.

HALDEMAN: Well, that's good.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Al [Al Haig] was telling me he had to shore up Finch [Bob Finch, longtime aide] a little bit today. And Finch is now, incidentally, going to lean into McGovern. He told me to lean into McGovern. And I said, Bob, just do what you want. I mean, I'd just given up. He comes in and out, that's his problem.

HALDEMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He'll do what he wants. I don't mean that Bob is...Bob is sorta like the other politicians, you know, most of the politicians are- not about to stand up until they see how the damn thing is going to come out. But aren't you pleased about that kind of reaction in Norfolk at this point in time?

HALDEMAN: I am, but I'm not at all surprised.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Really?

HALDEMAN: No sir, not at all. I think that's what you find in any place.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You see, the whole argument of the so-called, and it isn't a very big crowd, of the so-called resignation crowd and so-forth, is the president gets out and then the new president would not have Watergate on his back. I wonder how does that argument strike you?

HALDEMAN: It doesn't hold at all. That's ridiculous.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Really?

HALDEMAN: Oh sure.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Of course it is. Course it is. Cause it's just one of those things. I think you just, my own view is, fight right throught to the finish on the sonofabitch. How're your lawyers feel?

HALDEMAN: Fine.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Good. Colson, is he still a fighter?

HALDEMAN: Sure. Oh, sure.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Archibald Cox, how do they feel about him?

HALDEMAN: They say, from what they know of him, good man, tough. Brilliant. As Wilson [John Wilson, his lawyer] said, I would never a pick a professor for anything, but if you gotta have a professor, he's probably as good as any.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I think that...well, he will be political as hell, but he has some areas of decency in him. I met him years ago.

HALDEMAN: Wilson seemed to feel that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I mean, Archie Cox is not about to get out on a vendetta, like the other...Oh, one other thing, if you could mention to John that I have told them, they asked me if Ron [Ziegler] was questioned with about John's meeting with Byrne [Matthew Byrne, judge in the Daniel Ellsberg case], that John Ehrlichman had the responsibility for checking with various people who had been mentioned as possible FBI directors. His discussion with Byrne was in that context, only.

HALDEMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And had absolutely nothing to do with the case.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Because he had been prominently mentioned as a potential director. But you remember the damn thing. I mean, he came down there and I shook his hand for a minute and that was that.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, if you could run these things down, I would appreciate it. Al had said that John was concerned about whether I would- my position with Petersen with regard to the Hunt thing being national security, he need have no concern whatever.

HALDEMAN: I'll tell you, his concern was, if you didn't stay with that position, and that you had the problem with Petersen as a loose cannon.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, hell yes.

HALDEMAN: You made the point that you'd cover it that way, and that you got no-

PRESIDENT NIXON:I told Petersen that.

HALDEMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yes sir. I directed him, that it was national security, and I'm going to stick right to it.

HALDEMAN: Stick them with all the rest of them.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's what I'm going to do, and I told Petersen that personally, too.

HALDEMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And, of course, Petersen is in a bind there, I mean, here he was, being told by the president not to go in by anything that was national security. And there was no reason for them to. It had no relation to Watergate. None of this stuff has any relationship to Watergate. You know what I mean?

HALDEMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's the whole point.

HALDEMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You know...Okay, run those down, and maybe I could give you a call around, say, four o'clock?

HALDEMAN: Okay. Good.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Fine. Fine. Bye.

HALDEMAN: Bye.