[02:04] <Grum> the problem is the technic people are known to be cocky and simply not caring
[02:05] <Grum> and i tried to have a convo with the guy on irc
[02:05] <Arcanis_> Well... yes
[02:05] <Grum> and well ... erm ...
[02:05] <Grum> it was as pointless as a ball
[02:05] <Arcanis_> It has exploded a bit. Something about lawyers.
[02:05] <Arcanis_> But that's what mediation is for.
[02:05] <Grum> its all bullshit, lawyers haven't even remotely gotten close to ANYTHING
[02:06] <Grum> he literally made that up
[02:06] <Arcanis_> I read Notch's tweet.
[02:06] <Grum> i called him out on it on irc, obviously he would never tweet about that
[02:06] <Arcanis_> Markus Persson ‏@notch  55m
[02:06] <Arcanis_> @VoxTechnologie @_grum @Dinnerbone i am absolutely fine with us involving lawyers to stop people intercepting sensitive player data.
[02:06] <Grum> which tweet? url?
[02:06] <Grum> good
[02:06] <Grum> that is the right approach
[02:06] <Arcanis_> Well technically I agree.
[02:07] <Arcanis_> Intecepting sensitive player data.
[02:07] <Arcanis_> Notch said the right thing there. But the tokens are basically like cookies from my understanding.
[02:07] <Arcanis_> They expire. They don't contain real information.
[02:07] <Grum> they are only used to log into game-servers; they should remain on the client; they have no business being anywhere else
[02:08] <Arcanis_> That may also be true.
[02:08] <Grum> not for tracking, not for collecting, not for checking, not for ANY reason
[02:08] <Arcanis_> Then the question comes to, why did they do it?
[02:08] <Arcanis_> THeir answer was that they were preventing hacked clients from using their bandwidth.
[02:08] <Arcanis_> Which is also understandable.
[02:08] <Grum> yes, which is bullshit
[02:08] <Grum> they are currently not even using the data
[02:08] <Grum> and still collecting it
[02:09] <Arcanis_> Hmm.
[02:09] <Grum> they 'had plans/have plans/did something for a short time as a test' -- meanwhile still collecting the login tokens
[02:09] <Arcanis_> Then... I'm trying to think of another way that they could prevent crack clients and authenticate with Mojang servers.
[02:10] <Arcanis_> Yeah, as in right now they aren't using the tokens but still keep them.
[02:10] <Arcanis_> Those tokens also become completely useless after a certain amount of time or the player logs in again.
[02:10] <Arcanis_> So they haven't gained anything either.
[02:10] <Arcanis_> It's just pointless for them to hold data and do nothing with it.
[02:10] <Arcanis_> And the tokens also don't hold sensitive information.
[02:10] <Arcanis_> They are like cookies.
[02:11] <Arcanis_> So they may be using it wrong, completely wrong even, but it's still not damaging.
[02:11] <Arcanis_> Unless I can be proven wrong, and am open to.
[02:11] <Arcanis_> And in that case, it's not fair to make the statement that all 3rd party launchers are unsafe.
[02:12] <Grum> you do realize that we don't actually prevent people from pirating the game right?
[02:12] <Arcanis_> Yeah I do know that.
[02:12] <Grum> so why people think they have the right to do that where we do not. .. is kinda weird
[02:13] <Grum> they are now abusing our system to superimpose some form of DRM
[02:13] <Arcanis_> Well, in their case technic does something slightly different.
[02:13] <Arcanis_> Technic has redirection and other things that gets modpacks to the client.
[02:13] <Arcanis_> And that has to go through their servers.
[02:13] <Grum> it doesn't matter what they want to do or want to achieve, you simply do not get to use our data this way without us saying something about i
[02:13] <Grum> t
[02:14] <Arcanis_> Actually I think I understand that side better now.
[02:14] <Arcanis_> You don't want an unofficial entity imposing DRM on your product.
[02:14] <Arcanis_> That you yourself wouldn't already use.
[02:14] <Grum> we dont want this 'auth-token' to be send away from the client
[02:14] <Grum> that's it
[02:15] <Grum> their reasons are broken for other reasons
[02:15] <Grum> and their reasons are used as excuses why they think they can get away with sending this data away from the client without the client knowing it *OR* having misrepresented what the data can do
[02:16] <Grum> if you ask someone: "After you login, can I send the data to our servers so we can log in on ANY mcserver we like pretending to be you without anyone being able to notice" -- quite sure they say no
[02:16] <Arcanis_> Right now I can't think of an alternative for either position... but I know there has to be something that can be done. I think I'm hungry haha so my brain is slowing down.
[02:16] <Arcanis_> But they don't actually use it for that.
[02:16] <Grum> especially if the underlying reason is: "We grew to big, made shitty deals with content providers and now we have to pay too much :'(((("
[02:16] <Arcanis_> Maybe a disclaimer that points out that that IS possible.
[02:16] <Arcanis_> So they know it.
[02:16] <Arcanis_> But also saying that they don't.
[02:16] <Arcanis_> And wouldn't.
[02:17] <Grum> they have to ask it every they do it and explain the consequences
[02:17] <Grum> and even then, we dont want them to do it
[02:17] <Arcanis_> Upon every login? That would be absurd.
[02:17] <Grum> as THERE IS NO BLOODY REASON
[02:17] <Arcanis_> lol
[02:18] <Grum> *why* ... why on earth would you *ever* need to use a token that allows a client to login to a game-server to anything other than the frikkin auth-servers+gameserver ? :/
[02:18] <Arcanis_> Is it possible then to create a separate authentication system that doesn't rely on game servers?
[02:18] <Arcanis_> Extend the same principle but cut out the bit about logging into servers.
[02:19] <Arcanis_> Then there is no vulnerability associated with it.
[02:20] <Grum> wait, so now you are suggesting in order for them to be able to DRM users we need to build *and* maintain a secondary authsystem ....
[02:20] <Grum> LOL !!!!! :D
[02:21] <Grum> yes that is totally worth it, we totally are going to waste time, money, effort so they can spend less >.>
[02:22] <Arcanis_> :/
[02:22] <Grum> you get the point right? :)
[02:22] <Arcanis_> I feel like that was very condescending. But yes I understand what you are saying.
[02:22] <Grum> people feel they are entitled to demand us doing things
[02:23] <Grum> without actually considering what those things mean
[02:23] <Arcanis_> Hmm yes.
[02:23] <Arcanis_> That's why I was speculating.
[02:23] <Grum> why on earth would we build a system we have no benefits from, costs time, effort, manpower -- and in general just adds to the confusion for users
[02:23] <Grum> because now they have to login twice
[02:23] <Arcanis_> Not what I meant.
[02:23] <Grum> same difference
[02:23] <Arcanis_> That would be horrible.
[02:24] <Arcanis_> Not at all.
[02:24] <Grum> it matters little on 'how it would work' -- understand that unless Mojang gains a direct benefit it would simply be classed as stupid to waste time on
[02:24] <Grum> I'm sure the 5 people that work on MC can spend their time working on better things right? :)
[02:24] <Arcanis_> :// this is why I don't like corporations.
[02:25] <Grum> No, you want us to work as quickly as possible towards the API right?
[02:25] <Grum> so don't distract us with shit that would save some random launcher some money
[02:25] <Arcanis_> Now the auth system may be completely wrong and stupid.
[02:25] <Arcanis_> And your time may be better spent elsewhere.
[02:25] <Arcanis_> But it was the statement.
[02:25] <Arcanis_> " unless Mojang gains a direct benefit it would simply be classed as stupid to waste time on"
[02:25] <Grum> yes, if it would give us some benefit we'd consider it
[02:26] <Grum> but what is the benefit? the only person having a benefit would be Technic and their monthly traffic costs
[02:26] <Arcanis_> Excluding this discussion, that statement doesn't consider the benefit of the userbase.
[02:26] <Grum> i'd imagine if they actually would strike a deal with amazon they'd solve the problem
[02:26] <Grum> but that is the point. there is no benefit to the userbase
[02:26] <Arcanis_> Unless Mojang AND/OR the users were to benefit, it would be a waste.
[02:26] <Grum> Technic exists right now as it does
[02:26] <Arcanis_> I said excluding this current discussion.
[02:27] <Arcanis_> The statement itself bothered me
[02:27] <Grum> the statement is valid if you do not rip it out of context
[02:27] <Arcanis_> Yeah it's really stupid that they use amazon...
[02:27] <Grum> its not
[02:27] <Grum> we use amazon
[02:27] <Grum> we have FAR more traffic
[02:27] <Grum> we probably pay less than they do
[02:27] <Arcanis_> Maybe it's my small scale setups.
[02:27] <Arcanis_> But I pay next to nothing for bandwidth.
[02:27] <Arcanis_> I considered amazon first.
[02:28] <Arcanis_> Those prices are insane.
[02:29] <Grum> they are
[02:29] <Grum> we paid over 100k/mth to them before we actually decided to make a deal
[02:29] <Arcanis_> holy shit
[02:29] <Arcanis_> That isn't even remotely sustainable.
[02:30] <Grum> we pay ... significantly less now
[02:30] <Grum> for FAR more traffic
[02:30] <Grum> (and significantly is dropping a significant digit)
[02:30] <Arcanis_> Hmm.
[02:31] <Arcanis_> Just brainstorming.
[02:31] <Arcanis_> Say Mojang hires a whole new team of people. They build a new launcher that does all the fancy things that people want it to do.
[02:31] <Arcanis_> It has profiles, does modpacks, has a modpack managing system and platform.
[02:31] <Arcanis_> And is separate from the team you currently work on so it doesn't slow you guys down.
[02:32] <Arcanis_> Gives people the ability to customize it and do other nice things, etc, blah blah, whatever, but taking from the best ideas of existing launchers.
[02:32] <Arcanis_> This benefits Mojang, the community as a whole, all modders and modpack players, etc.
[02:32] <Grum> stop!
[02:32] <Grum> we'd never build ANYTHING that has anything to do with mods
[02:33] <Arcanis_> Why not?
[02:33] <Grum> again, we are not going to cater for the retarded way people have build their shit when we know it's not going to work that way in the future
[02:33] <Arcanis_> You may not support them, but you can allow them to be used in your system.
[02:33] <Grum> you can use them now!
[02:33] <Arcanis_> Yes yes I know.
[02:33] <Grum> i use vanilla launcher and play on Forgecraft
[02:33] <Arcanis_> But in a nicer/cleaner/easier way.
[02:33] <Grum> don't pretend its impossible or particularly hard
[02:33] <Arcanis_> It's not hard actually.
[02:33] <Arcanis_> I had a friend just earlier today who couldn't set up forge.
[02:34] <Arcanis_> I teamviewed her and did it in 3 minutes.
[02:34] <Arcanis_> But people use those other launchers for different reasons.
[02:36] <Grum> so why don't people make something that just bootstraps all the data the launcher needs and then just starts it so they just have to login + hit play?
[02:36] <Grum> you can totally validly do that
[02:36] <Arcanis_> Hmm.
[02:36] <Arcanis_> Yes.
[02:36] <Grum> or, you can make a profile that you launch into from the launcher that basically runs a 'pack installer/updater' and then starts MC
[02:36] <Grum> also totally doable
[02:36] <Arcanis_> But can I do that AND make the vanilla launcher look differently? :D
[02:37] <Grum> we're working on that -- making it look less technical
[02:37] <Grum> but stop pretending 'looks' is what matters in the end
[02:37] <Arcanis_> For a lot of people it really does.
[02:37] <Arcanis_> Modpack authors package a whole lot of things.
[02:37] <Arcanis_> I completely change the look and feel of the launcher/window/menus/everything.
[02:38] <Arcanis_> Only some of that is possible with the vanilla launcher.
[02:50] <Grum> it matters nothing
[02:50] <Grum> playing a 'pack' starts when you are actually in the game
[02:50] <Arcanis_> Not really.
[02:50] <Grum> the rest is cruft/fluff and just a nicety
[02:50] <Arcanis_> It's an immersive thing.
[02:50] <Grum> pfft
[02:50] <Arcanis_> And that's where it comes to opinion and preference.
[02:51] <Arcanis_> Everyone will want different things.
[02:52] <Arcanis_> http://pastebin.com/28n7M6f5
[02:52] <Arcanis_> ^^^ many of us disagree with that ^^^
[02:52] <Grum> That is only because you have chosen the retarded path of loading mods 'outside' of the game
[02:52] <Grum> and then accepted 100kb of config files
[02:52] <Grum> i mean, you are doing this to yourself :)
[02:53] <Arcanis_> what
[02:54] <Grum> that reason you want or need to have the launcher do more than just actually start the game is because you handle loading all the mods etc from OUTSIDE of the game
[02:54] <Grum> rather than from inside
[02:55] <Grum> we made the launcher being capable of running old versions because we thought it was a fun idea and it was easy to add
[02:55] <Grum> its confusing to the users but hell, we'll fix that later
[02:55] <Arcanis_> WHich is far better for distribution and relative ease for users.
[02:55] <Arcanis_> confusing to the users....
[02:55] <Arcanis_> WHich is why they use other ones.
[02:55] <Grum> bullshit, you can do this 'distribution' all from within the game
[02:55] <Arcanis_> Have you used modpack platforms?
[02:56] <Arcanis_> You paste a url and press add.
[02:56] <Arcanis_> Then play. And it's done.
[02:56] <Arcanis_> That's like as easy as it is for users.
[02:56] <Grum> yes, so why can't you paste this url in the game?
[02:56] <Arcanis_> To add a modpack?
[02:56] <Grum> yes
[02:56] <Arcanis_> LOL
[02:56] <Arcanis_> You don't understand at all what I'm saying.
[02:56] <Grum> i do
[02:56] <Grum> but you dont seem to understand what i'm saying
[02:56] <Grum> modding has put themselves into this corner where they HAVE to do this externally
[02:56] <Grum> its the stupid way of doing it
[02:57] <Arcanis_> Great, that's fine for devs, what about people who PLAY the game.
[02:57] <Arcanis_> It's super duper easy for them to use those launchers.
[02:57] <Arcanis_> And one other thing...
[02:57] <Arcanis_> You have to install the mods at some point.
[02:57] <Arcanis_> You can't just... paste a url.
[02:57] <Grum> oh cmon, now you are saying it matters where they put in the url?
[02:57] <Arcanis_> umm yes..
[02:57] <Grum> you can definitely do al you want from within the game
[02:58] <Arcanis_> You can't install things from within the game while it's running.
[02:58] <Arcanis_> What are you even talking about.
[02:59] <Grum> you can
[02:59] <Grum> if you want to
[02:59] <Grum> will take a considerable amount of work -- but you definitely can
[02:59] <Arcanis_> considerable amount of work.
[02:59] <Arcanis_> So you expect the average user to want to take that route?
[03:00] <Grum> yes, so stop being lazy and improve the experience for the user
[03:00] <Arcanis_> When a launcher with these features make it a one step process?
[03:00] <Grum> oh no, we have to do work do you can cycle on your old crappy shit :)
[03:01] <Arcanis_> <MomoNasty> he is in spout and spoutdev, confirmed: mojang is copying spout
[03:01] <Arcanis_> lel no
[03:01] <Grum> i mean, people never made something sane to get rid of the 100kb of 'id configs' ....
[03:01] [Notice] -NickServ- SuperBot9000!~SuperBot9@64.74.111.20 has just authenticated as you (Arcanis_)
[03:01] <Grum> but they claim they are so 'convenient' to the user?
[03:02] <Arcanis_> IDs aren't convenient. They are horrible. o.O
[03:02] <Arcanis_> I didn't implement ids.
[03:02] <Grum> so why didn't someone make something for that?
[03:02] <Grum> 99% of the configs needed are to 'resolve id conflicts' or similar
[03:02] <Arcanis_> Because Mojang doesn't support mods, Lex does Forge, and Lex didn't.
[03:02] <Grum> modders are lazy, not sure why we'd cater for lazy
[03:02] <Arcanis_> Not all are lazy.
[03:02] <Grum> but Forge is opensource
[03:02] <Arcanis_> That is a dangerous generalization.
[03:02] <Grum> so why not just add it?
[03:02] <Grum> everyone is lazy about something ;)
[03:03] <Arcanis_> ... that is a misuse of the word.
[03:03] <Grum> and a good coder IS lazy
[03:03] <Grum> if not, they are not a good coder
[03:03] <Arcanis_> Priority.
[03:03] <Arcanis_> You prioritize your time... don't do the same thing over and over... find better ways of doing it. Intuitive.
[03:03] <Arcanis_> I'm not even slightly lazy.
[03:04] <Grum> no, you are too lazy to repeat the same simple thing over and over
[03:04] <Grum> :p
[03:04] <Arcanis_> That's not laziness. That's creativity...
[03:04] <Grum> you might even get faster at doing it if you do it for a while
[03:04] [Notice] -NickServ- SuperBot9000!~SuperBot9@64.74.111.20 has just authenticated as you (Arcanis_)
[03:04] <Arcanis_> That's being smart about how you do something.
[03:04] <Grum> have you seen those people packing playing cards in a fabric in china?
[03:04] <Grum> they are faster than a machine
[03:04] <Arcanis_> Being lazy is not coming up with those better ways of doing things and just copy/pasting over and over
[03:05] <Grum> the underlying reason is laziness :p
[03:11] <Arcanis_> There are a loooot of people arguing and frustrated about this whole thing.
[03:16] <Grum> what thing? to please not send the data required to login to a game-server to a 3rdparty server?
[03:16] <Grum> it's pretty hilarious :)
[03:16] <Arcanis_> And other things.
[03:17] <Grum> which other things?
[03:17] <Arcanis_> Doesn't matter.
[03:17] <Grum> that we don't want to bendover backwards to somehow make their lives easier by making systems we have absolutely no use for ourselves? :)
[03:18] <Arcanis_> Well I don't know, actually listening to people and their concerns might help.
[03:18] <Arcanis_> But you come in with this attitude. "I know best!"
[03:18] <Arcanis_> It's unproductive.
[03:18] <Grum> sofar all their concerns are self-centered/serving
[03:18] <Arcanis_> That's how people work.
[03:18] <Grum> yes, and a good reason for us to not have to listen to it :)
[03:18] <Arcanis_> They have a concern that CONCERNS THEM.
[03:19] <Grum> yes and only them
[03:19] <Arcanis_> If only hospitals worked liek that.
[03:19] <Arcanis_> Oh, you're bleeding? Aren't you selfish.
[03:19] <Arcanis_> Come back when it helps me to fix you.
[03:19] <Arcanis_> >_>...
[03:19] <Grum> that is different :)
[03:19] <Arcanis_> We're talking concepts here.
[03:19] <Arcanis_> It's not different.
[03:19] <Arcanis_> I could throw out a lot of different examples.
[03:20] <Grum> yes, so now mojang is supposed to make an oath to 'heal peoples minecraft related problems they created for themselves' ? :/
[03:20] <Arcanis_> The only thing you are revealing is ulterior motives.
[03:20] <Grum> which ulterior motives?
[03:20] <Arcanis_> Hmm.
[03:20] <Arcanis_> I didn't create the lag monster that is minecraft.
[03:20] <Grum> lagmonster?
[03:21] <Arcanis_> The immense amount of resources that it uses compared to what it's actually doing is mind boggling.
[03:21] <Arcanis_> You put anything into that, in the correct way or not, it gets worse.
[03:21] <Arcanis_> So there is no right way to add to a broken system. Again, you are working on an API.
[03:21] <Arcanis_> But you aren't listening to anything anyone wants for the api.
[03:21] <Arcanis_> And don't care for their concerns.
[03:21] <Grum> lol
[03:21] <Arcanis_> And you know best.
[03:21] <Grum> that is because no-one has any ideas that are relevant right now
[03:22] <Grum> and not sure how launcher have to do with 'api'
[03:22] <Arcanis_> Because you're the only person who has ever made a game.
[03:22] <Arcanis_> I'm not even talking about the launchers.
[03:22] <Arcanis_> I jump between subjects a lot.
[03:22] <Grum> we're talking to enough people already :)
[03:22] <Grum> but right now most of the codebase is not even remotely close to be in a state there can be an api created for it
[03:23] <Grum> and you know that, because it changes a lot, except for the parts we replaced, those stay mostly the same
[03:23] <Arcanis_> So what I am seeing from this:
[03:24] <Arcanis_> The game was poorly designed from the start, you even said it's broken, people were working with the broken code because it was what was presented to them, but in your eyes they are retarded for even trying.
[03:24] <Arcanis_> And everyone is doing it all wrong.
[03:24] <Arcanis_> Even though it's already broken and there isn't really a right way to do it.
[03:24] <Arcanis_> Do you see where I'm coming from here?
[03:24] <Grum> no, in my eyes they should not complain about things changing if they wilfully pick an ever changing target to code against and then not make some sort of abstraction
[03:25] <Grum> they are 'retarded' if they complain AFTER they chose to do so
[03:25] <Arcanis_> I don't think most people really expected it to be ever changing.
[03:25] <Grum> LOL
[03:25] <Arcanis_> The game was 1.0 a long time ago.
[03:25] <Arcanis_> and it's really never finished being in beta >_>.
[03:25] <Arcanis_> Slow development is slow.
[03:25] <Grum> yes and obfuscation has been in since version 0.30? O.o
[03:26] <Arcanis_> Great so putting devs aside, what about all of the people who run servers and use those mods? Are they supposed to just write their own damn apis and mods which YOU can't even do?
[03:27] <Grum> what makes you say we cannot do it?
[03:27] <Arcanis_> "We will have a mod api out some time" circa ~2 years ago
[03:27] <Grum> I thought you agreed on the fact that code should be sane -- we're doing that right now; breaking up the hardcoded dependencies and turning it into a flexible system that is worthy of an API that doesn't change as much as the underlying code with every revision
[03:27] <Grum> yeah .... lol
[03:27] <Arcanis_> You have a team of 5. MCP and Forge did it. And talk down about them. But you can't even do it.
[03:28] <Grum> the people who have said "We will have mod api" --- they actually haven't coded a SINGLE character towards it
[03:28] <Arcanis_> :/
[03:28] <Grum> we have a team of 5 ... since beginning of this year
[03:28] <Arcanis_> So then Mojang needs better quality control on what gets stated in public.
[03:28] <Grum> and it takes 2-3 months for people to get up2speed
[03:28] <Arcanis_> Like twitter wars. Can't be good for image.
[03:28] <Grum> so yes, we have a team of 5 now, of which 4 work on the things we need to do
[03:29] <Grum> Arcanis_: I cannot help Notch or Jens saying or promising things
[03:29] <Grum> i can just facepalm
[03:29] <Arcanis_> Well that is true.
[03:29] <Grum> and i do facepalm when jens promises shit
[03:29] <Arcanis_> But there are other inconsistencies between statements from other people.
[03:29] <Grum> so he stopped doing that finally
[03:29] <Arcanis_> lol
[03:29] <Arcanis_> Like when one person says a thing and then two other people ahve to step in to clarify.
[03:30] <Grum> which person is saying things?
[03:30] <Grum> is it me or dinnerbone?  ... if not? DO NOT LISTEN.
[03:30] <Arcanis_> That's fine for me.
[03:30] <Grum> specially if it has anything to do with API
[03:30] <Arcanis_> But what about all of everyone else/?
[03:30] <Arcanis_> Also dinnerbone started up a panic.
[03:30] <Grum> doing what?
[03:30] <Arcanis_> Nevermind >_>... not getting back into that.
[03:31] <Grum> also are you sure it was dinnerbone who started it, and not some kid who tried to find an extreme angle on a statement?
[03:31] <Grum> and then continued to blow it out of proportion
[03:32] <Arcanis_> I replied directly to what dinnerbone said.
[03:32] <Arcanis_> I'm not an idiot...
[03:32] <Arcanis_> Neither are all of these other people who have been arguing for days now.
[03:33] <Grum> i have no idae who you are on twitter
[03:33] <Grum> i have no idea what dinnerbone said
[03:33] <Grum> i have no idea what you responded
[03:33] <Grum> if you want better answers give me more information :p
[03:33] <Arcanis_> Oh I'm Dark-Arcana
[03:33] <Arcanis_> I was in the whole mess xD
[03:34] <Grum> sorry, but i fail to remember many names on twitter; mind posting the url to the reply you did to nathan?
[03:34] <Arcanis_> That whole thing got horribly desynced. The conversation doesn't flow at all.
[03:35] <Arcanis_> Oh my tag thingy is actually @Arcanis_
[03:35] <Arcanis_> So if you see that.
[03:36] <Grum> unless you give an url i'll go drop that subject then; i have nothing to add without more concrete info :)
[03:36] <Arcanis_> It's fine. Not really worth it.
[03:36] <Grum> (and yes i'm lazy, i am not going to search twitter -- WHICH IS A PAIN -- to find anything ;D)
[03:36] <Arcanis_> Yeah no. I don't look at things without a proper link either.
[03:37] <Grum> anyhow! for roughly ~2.5 months we've actually had 4 people working on things
[03:37] <Grum> before that it was me + nathan alone
[03:38] <Arcanis_> That just seems irresponsible to me. With something as widely used as Minecraft, you'd expect that some resources would have been spent (sooner) to hire a larger team.
[03:38] <Arcanis_> I'm glad that it was finally done.
[03:38] <Grum> took me a fuckton of effort to do so
[03:38] <Grum> Mojang wants to stay small
[03:38] <Grum> meanwhile we now have 36 people
[03:38] <Arcanis_> I don't think you will have much of a choice.
[03:38] <Grum> and that is not counting any of our support team
[03:38] <Arcanis_> Either expand, or die under the weight.
[03:38] <Grum> we have the choice, that is the fun part, we can decide to stay as small as we want
[03:39] <Grum> nowhere in anything we've done do we have any obligation to anyone
[03:39] <Arcanis_> not what I meant.....
[03:39] <Grum> you buy the game in the current state it was in back then
[03:39] <Arcanis_> you don't catch on
[03:39] <Grum> we do not have to give you updates, we dont have to give anything at all :)
[03:39] <Arcanis_> Actually technically you do with what you said earlier.
[03:39] <Arcanis_> "We will stop providing links to older versions"
[03:40] <Grum> i never said that ? :/
[03:40] <Arcanis_> Oh man... let me find that.
[03:40] <Grum> $ grep links Arcanis__20140501.log
[03:40] <Grum> [10:39:59] <Arcanis_> "We will stop providing links to older versions"
[03:41] <Grum> you are the only person mentioning links this convo
[03:41] <Arcanis_> Links...
[03:41] <Arcanis_> access
[03:41] <Arcanis_> providing access.
[03:41] <Arcanis_> Synonyms.
[03:41] <Grum> no, the auth-servers will just stop working for ancient versions
[03:41] <Grum> and thus they will become 'stale'
[03:42] <Grum> anything under 1.7 uses old shit
[03:42] <Grum> if you keep hanging on to that we'll eventually shut down the 1.6 compatible things
[03:42] <Arcanis_> What if I bought the game in 1.0 and want to play only that version?
[03:42] <Grum> we do that anways
[03:42] <Arcanis_> And then I lost my computer or something and want to get a new copy.
[03:42] <Grum> Arcanis_: you can play the game
[03:42] <Arcanis_> And you don't provide that version.
[03:42] <Grum> we do
[03:42] <Grum> we provide all versions actually
[03:42] <Grum> also, find ANY company on this fucking planet that does that
[03:42] <Arcanis_> You said earlier you wouldn't provide old version to keep people from staying on old versions.
[03:43] <Arcanis_> When we were talking about people sticking with 1.6.4 permanently.
[03:43] <Grum> no, i said that they wouldn't be able to play online
[03:43] <Arcanis_> Which is bullshit.
[03:43] <Arcanis_> Shouldn't that be their choice?
[03:43] <Grum> because we'd disable the auth-servers
[03:43] <Grum> because we dont want to support our old and broken stuff
[03:43] <Arcanis_> .... make it backward compatible.
[03:43] <Grum> you can perfectly singleplay all you want
[03:43] <Arcanis_> Oh yes, you are lazy.
[03:44] <Grum> no, there is no reason to do that
[03:44] <Arcanis_> Or it doesn't benefit you and screw everyone else.
[03:44] <Grum> or rather; it is largely backwards compat
[03:44] <Grum> but some things simply are phased out over time
[03:44] <Grum> like skins, they will stop working in old versions in the future
[03:44] <Grum> by then we're talking about 'anything older than 1.7.9'
[03:44] <Grum> and probably not before 1.10
[03:44] <Grum> but it will happen
[03:44] <Arcanis_> that's like the dumbest numbering system.
[03:45] <Arcanis_> 1.10...
[03:45] <Grum> so what comes after 9?
[03:45] <Arcanis_> Shouldn't have counted like that in the first place.
[03:45] <Arcanis_> Because it foces you to say 1.10 or 1.2
[03:45] <Arcanis_> 2.0*
[03:45] <Arcanis_> Both being odd increments.
[03:45] <Grum> ah yes, we should do the firefox scheme, and go to version 125 right now
[03:46] <Arcanis_> Build numbers.
[03:46] <Arcanis_> More consistent.
[03:46] <Grum> no, those are their release numbers
[03:46] <Grum> firefox 28 now orso?
[03:46] <Arcanis_> I have no idea. I don't use firefox.
[03:46] <Grum> Chrome is version 34
[03:46] <Grum> totally .... real O.o
[03:47] <Grum> not sure how they got there, there are apparently no numbers above 9
[03:47] <Grum> but i guess this is one of those situations where you'd suddenly demand that the 'community knows better how to version shit'
[03:48] <Grum> and that it should be 1.9 -> 2.0 ... instead of 1.9 -> 1.10
[03:48] <Grum> eventhough it makes NO sense, but hey! IT IS BETTAR SO WE MUST HAS IT
[03:49] <Arcanis_> This is possibly the least productive conversation I have ever had.
[03:49] <Arcanis_> But it has been really revealing.
[03:49] <Arcanis_> I never thought that I would be so frustrated with actually talking to someone from Mojang.
[03:50] <Grum> Well, i like to be sarcastic about the things that deserve to be laughed about
[03:50] <Arcanis_> So you're a condescending asshole?
[03:50] <Grum> the only other remaining option would be to facepalm and cry
[03:50] <Arcanis_> I think we established this.
[03:50] <Arcanis_> Either way, I'm done.
[03:50] <Arcanis_> You don't understand logic or reason.
[03:50] <Grum> not really, but if you start to distill meaning from between the lines rather than the information that is in it -- you are going to have a problem communicating with me yes
[03:50] <Arcanis_> You have your motives and will act them out.
[03:51] <Arcanis_> I think the word for that is deduction.
[03:51] <Arcanis_> aka logic
[03:51] <Arcanis_> and reasoning
[03:51] <Arcanis_> You've been staring at the code too long and have become too literal.
[03:52] <Grum> Wait, so it is all about the words i am *NOT* typing?
[03:52] <Grum> its all about what you read in between my lines and words rather than the things they actually convey?
[03:52] <Grum> how is that logical? :/
[03:52] <Arcanis_> You forgot to read.
[03:53] <Arcanis_> Is English your second language?
[03:53] <Grum> obviously it is, but I'm not sure how that is relevant
[03:53] <Arcanis_> I'm starting to get that feeling, but that you just don't understand some things.
[03:53] <Grum> haha
[03:53] <Arcanis_> It's very relavent.
[03:53] <Grum> oh god, so you know how upset i'd now be if i would to read in between those lines/words right? :)
[03:54] <Arcanis_> I don't really care how upset you'd be.
[03:54] <Arcanis_> I worded it in such a way that you could take it and run.
[03:54] <Grum> beyond that you imply that i'm incapable of actually reading english but for some reason have been able to coherently reply to the things you've said the last ... what is it ? ... hour?
[03:54] <Grum> sigh 2+ :/
[03:55] <Arcanis_> Not at all.
[03:55] <Arcanis_> You can read and speak English just fine.
[03:55] <Arcanis_> But being that it is your second language, you miss subtle nuances.
[03:55] <Grum> like which? feel free to explain with an example :)
[03:55] <Arcanis_> Your brain was not wired to think or understand English.
[03:55] <Grum> you have two+ hours of logs to pick from, let me have it please :)
[03:55] <Arcanis_> That's not even remotely helpful. I'm speaking in general.
[03:56] <Arcanis_> I'm not going to feed the troll.
[03:56] <Grum> Ah, so now i'm a troll too?
[03:56] <Arcanis_> What I am saying however is that, I will say something and mean something, but you may not get the fulling meaning or gist of the concepts I'm trying to convey.
[03:56] <Arcanis_> I know Zero about you. I don't know where you are from or anything. But it is easy to tell that you aren't fully understanding what I am saying.
[03:57] <Grum> *or* you are perhaps leaning too much on 'nuances' and should just say the things you mean so there is no confusion with someone sitting on another end of this digital wire
[03:57] <Arcanis_> Or you are being dense on purpose.
[03:57] <Grum> No, i just challenge your preconceptions
[03:57] <Grum> and you do not respond
[03:57] <Arcanis_> I was trying to wind down.
[03:57] <Arcanis_> I don't know how I keep getting dragged back into this.
[03:58] <Grum> Because its actually been a rather intresting talk
[03:58] <Grum> eventhough very little was truly reached
[03:58] <Arcanis_> Mojang holds the power to do a lot.
[03:58] <Arcanis_> But is completely unwilling to compromise.
[03:58] <Grum> And we are, yet you want us to do more
[03:59] <Grum> It's not compromise if one side demands something
[03:59] <Grum> compromise makes both sides gain equally right?
[03:59] <Arcanis_> Mojang already got something.
[03:59] <Arcanis_> I bought the game, didn't I?
[03:59] <Arcanis_> Do I need to pay twice?
[03:59] <Arcanis_> I will for licensing.
[03:59] <Arcanis_> I'm sure a lot will.
[03:59] <Arcanis_> Fill your pockets with money.
[03:59] <Arcanis_> And give us what we want.
[03:59] <Grum> not really sure what you mean by you bought the game -- does that suddenly make you entitled to ask things?
[04:00] <Grum> isn't that a root cause of the problem?
[04:00] <Grum> you bought the game, you didn't get a bloody share in the company
[04:00] <Arcanis_> Isn't that how that works? You pay for a service, you receive a service.
[04:00] <Arcanis_> You say that updates aren't a service, but they are fucking implied from the start.
[04:00] <Arcanis_> You pay for the game, you get them.
[04:00] <Grum> Where do we sell a service? :/
[04:00] <Arcanis_> oh god.
[04:00] <Arcanis_> How are you even in this business.
[04:00] <Grum> oh realms but besides that :)
[04:02] <Grum> Straightly quoted from the EULA
[04:02] <Grum> UPGRADES
[04:02] <Grum> We might make upgrades and updates available from time to time, but we don‘t have to. We are also not obliged to provide ongoing support or maintenance of any Game. Of course, we hope to continue to release new updates for our Game, we just can‘t guarantee that we will do so.
[04:02] <Grum> i'm not making shit up here, this has been on minecraft's site since day one
[04:03] <Grum> well maybe a bit after it got popular and Mojang formed
[04:03] <Grum> but you get my drift :)
[04:03] <Arcanis_> I've read through the EULA.
[04:03] <Arcanis_> It's about as air tight as a leak in a submarine.
[04:03] <Grum> yup
[04:03] <Grum> because you really do not want us to define all those grey areas :/
[04:03] <Grum> it'll make lots of people really unhappy
[04:03] <Arcanis_> Actually yeah I can see that.
[04:04] <Arcanis_> Based on this conversation.
[04:04] <Arcanis_> You guys could care less about what people want.
[04:04] <Arcanis_> ;)
[04:04] <Arcanis_> And define all of that in a very terrible way.
[04:04] <Grum> Mojang is one of the most open and permissive company on the planet
[04:04] <Grum> *companies; meh
[04:05] <Grum> Based on this conversation you should realise that I can perfectly fine prioritise things (except chatting on a national holiday for 2.5+ hours with a random person ;D)
[04:05] <Grum> And that I'm not easily tempted by trivial shit to throw us of the course we're on -- the course to finally get to a codebase that can have an api
[04:05] <Arcanis_> Yeah you don't know me. I'm good at pulling strings from the shadows./
[04:06] <Arcanis_> I hear your API is gonna be like spout?
[04:06] <Grum> you heard this from who?
[04:06] <Grum> was it me or dinnerbone? :)
[04:06] <Arcanis_> Obviously not anyone in the know.
[04:06] <Grum> good, that should answer it
[04:06] <Arcanis_> Which means that it isn't a true statment.
[04:06] <Arcanis_> BUT
[04:06] <Arcanis_> It raises some questions.
[04:07] <Grum> in fact, we do not actually know how the API will look
[04:07] <Arcanis_> About content mods vs plugins that just add some functionality.
[04:07] <Grum> we're not even considering it right now -- we're still doing the needed mass-refactor to peel all the hardcoded dependencies apart
[04:07] <Arcanis_> Well I think as long as you add the ability for content mods and for people to request hooks, it will turn out fine.
[04:07] <Arcanis_> We don't need another bukkit.
[04:07] <Grum> There will always be something that will not be possible to be done in whatever anyone ever makes
[04:08] <Grum> Bukkit is fine for the API part
[04:08] <Grum> beyond that I'd class it fully broken
[04:08] <Arcanis_> Bukkit is fine for plugins but adds zero content.
[04:08] <Arcanis_> People like content and variety.
[04:08] <Grum> lol
[04:08] <Grum> Bukkit is an API
[04:08] <Grum> how is an API supposed to add content?
[04:08] <Arcanis_> Oh dear god.
[04:08] <Grum> and are all your minigame networks not adding content to the game?
[04:09] <Grum> they might not be the same kind of content as you are aiming for, but surely it's a form of content that keeps people entertained
[04:09] <Arcanis_> When people refer to content, they generally are referring to blocks, items, new functionality such as magic and tech, biomes, etc.
[04:09] <Arcanis_> Bukkit cannot do this.
[04:09] <Grum> they can do part of it
[04:09] <Arcanis_> Ehhhhhhhhhh
[04:09] <Arcanis_> I've actually worked with this stuff. Bukkit can't do any of the stuff forge can do.
[04:09] <Grum> they can do anything that doesn't involve changing the client
[04:10] <Arcanis_> And forge can''t do a ton of things bukkit can do.
[04:10] <Arcanis_> Which is why mcpc+ is so great.
[04:10] <Arcanis_> Changing the client.
[04:10] <Arcanis_> Which is what most people want.
[04:10] <Arcanis_> I have 150+ different types of mobs on my server.
[04:10] <Grum> how did you count this 'most people'
[04:10] <Arcanis_> Most people in the modding community...
[04:10] <Grum> did you do a poll under a representative slice of minecraft users?
[04:10] <Arcanis_> ... oh for fucks sake.
[04:10] <Arcanis_> I'm done.
[04:10] <Arcanis_> Out
[04:10] <Grum> stop stating things you have no backup for!
[04:11] <Grum> yes, the modding community 'wants' this as as collective
[04:11] <Arcanis_> Right. I'm going to poll 30 million people across all platforms.
[04:11] <Arcanis_> >_>..... I'm strictly representing the modding community.
[04:11] <Grum> hey, i did say representative slice
[04:11] <Arcanis_> I seriously thought that was obvious.
[04:11] <Grum> 11:10:17 < Arcanis_> Which is what most people want.  <-- is it?
[04:12] <Arcanis_> Most people in the modding community.
[04:12] <Grum> fixed!
[04:12] <Arcanis_> Or you could have fixed it in your head and not had such a big deal.
[04:12] <Grum> in some cases the detail matters
[04:12] <Arcanis_> This is where I was saying you wer ebeing too literal.
[04:12] <Arcanis_> Inflexible.
[04:12] <Grum> also 'Bukkit' and 'modding' are two different communities with a small overlap at mcpc
[04:12] <Arcanis_> Exactly.
[04:12] <Arcanis_> ...
[04:13] <Arcanis_> And they do two different things.
[04:13] <Grum> indeed
[04:13] <Arcanis_> The modding community wants to make sure they can still have content mods that add things to their game.
[04:13] <Arcanis_> Not bukkit style content where the whole world is still vanilla but wait there are some minigames.
[04:13] <Grum> And people want Bukkit for BuyCraft >.>
[04:13] <Arcanis_> If that were the case, we'd just continue using bukkit.
[04:13] <Grum> which is about the only reason mcpc excists :)
[04:13] <Grum> -c
[04:14] <Arcanis_> Also not true.
[04:14] <Arcanis_> You don't use any of the systems you are talking about.
[04:14] <Grum> of course not, i prioritise my time
[04:14] <Arcanis_> So therein lies the problem.
[04:14] <Arcanis_> You don't even know what the fuck you are talking about.
[04:14] <Grum> I do know that from a purely conceptual pov Forge and Bukkit do not merge together
[04:14] <Grum> And cpw & lex agree with that completely :)
[04:15] <Arcanis_> You don't play the game, you don't play with any of the modded stuff to know what others are looking for, so how the fuck can you know what to do with the api?
[04:15] <Grum> i dont?
[04:15] <Grum> the fuck, i'm quite playing on Forgecraft
[04:15] <Arcanis_>  <Grum> of course not, i prioritise my time
[04:15] <Grum> which would be roughly the pinnacle and forefront of 'modded' minecraft O.o
[04:15] <Grum> yes, that gets priority because its important to see what is happening
[04:16] <Grum> I dont have time to setup mcpc+ servers or play on random places
[04:16] <Grum> or to fuck around with id-loaded configs to setup something myself
[04:16] <Arcanis_> So you don't know.
[04:16] <Arcanis_> YOu don't use mcpc+ which is what most major servers use now.
[04:16] <Arcanis_> Buycraft?
[04:16] <Arcanis_> Pfft.
[04:16] <Arcanis_> That's a thing, but like...
[04:16] <Grum> name one major server that uses it
[04:16] <Arcanis_> That's not why people use mcpc+
[04:16] <Arcanis_> Tekkify
[04:16] <Arcanis_> Mine.
[04:16] <Grum> can you find it on http://www.mcnetworkstats.com/ ?
[04:17] <Arcanis_> I'm minor, but I am featured.
[04:17] <Arcanis_> Tekkify you can find anywhere.
[04:17] <Grum> or do you consider those non major servers?
[04:17] <Arcanis_> Ahh and there is the other problem.
[04:17] <Arcanis_> I see player counts on the side determining the server popularity.
[04:17] <Grum> pssst buycraft http://store.tekkify.com/
[04:18] <Arcanis_> Forge/mcpc+ servers can't have more than a certain number of users before all hell breaks lose.
[04:18] <Grum> ok that was hilariously funny :P -- google tekkify, the main seachresults supports my wild accusation
[04:18] <Arcanis_> Also, yes I know Nentify uses Buycraft >_>..... I said it wasn't the only reason to use mcpc+
[04:18] <Grum> thanks internet! :D
[04:18] <Arcanis_> Wihch is what you said.
[04:18] <Arcanis_> Again, you aren't even following what I'm saying.
[04:18] <Grum> yeah i know, it was a wild accusation :p
[04:19] <Arcanis_> If minecraft wasn't such a lag monster, there would be larger modded servers.
[04:19] <Grum> Oh i know that they cant, remember I see those issues first-hand while playing on forgecraft
[04:19] <Grum> so what is a lagmonster exactly? :)
[04:19] <Grum> its not 'properly threaded' ?
[04:19] <Grum> or what is causing so much lag?
[04:19] <Arcanis_> Uses an insane amount of memory.
[04:19] <Grum> could it be that all those mod-authors are doing things in a not so optimal way?
[04:19] <Arcanis_> Oh and...
[04:19] <Grum> ah! how much does it use ?
[04:19] <Grum> and how much do you think it should use?
[04:20] <Arcanis_> The best cpu's available for hosting lag under very little use.
[04:20] <Grum> and i'll do some math for you and show you it's not using all that much actually :)
[04:20] <Arcanis_> Oh yeah?
[04:20] <Arcanis_> How about you run a modpack on MCPC+ and then do your math.
[04:20] <Arcanis_> herp derp that's what I'm talking about.
[04:20] <Grum> you are talking about Minecraft, this means the memory usage in vanilla is broken right?
[04:20] <Grum> if its not broken in vanilla then it HAS to be caused by mods
[04:21] <Grum> so, lets do some ballpark math then, how big do you think the 25x25 chunks area around spawn is in memory? :)
[04:21] <Arcanis_> .... when adding anything to the game it becomes worse. Ryan Holtz agreed with me 100%.
[04:22] <Grum> obviously, when you add weights to weights it becomes heavier
[04:22] <Arcanis_> So... spread the load.
[04:22] <Grum> but you said it was memory too
[04:22] <Grum> lets first fix that claim :)
[04:22] <Arcanis_> Actually I'm taking that one back. I barely use any memory. But it does require a lot of cpu power.
[04:22] <Grum> Because minecraft is rather unique; surely a halflife server can run using ~20mb orso
[04:22] <Grum> and have a MASSIVE level loaded with 'tons' of entities in it
[04:23] <Grum> surely it uses a lot of cpu power
[04:23] <Grum> and there is a lot of areas where it can be reduced
[04:23] <Grum> but does it use 'that much' when you are not generating the world? or is it significantly worse when generating?
[04:23] <Grum> (i know the answer, the latter)
[04:23] <Arcanis_> I hear a lot from tech servers that are used to running with 4-12 tps
[04:24] <Grum> The game has never been: 1) designed for multiplayer; 2) designed for multiplayer with more than a handful of people
[04:24] <Arcanis_> Tick Threading exists because of this.
[04:24] <Arcanis_> To fix your shit.
[04:24] <Grum> wait
[04:24] <Grum> so a vanilla server has 4-12tps?
[04:24] <Arcanis_> Tech server
[04:24] <Arcanis_> My god
[04:24] <Grum> how is 'tech server' our shit? O.o
[04:24] <Arcanis_> ... it's built on top of your framework.
[04:25] <Arcanis_> The job queuing system starts with you.
[04:25] <Grum> HAHAHAHAHA ... ok sorry, which framework?
[04:25] <Grum> glad we have this out of the way
[04:25] <Grum> because that is where the misconception started
[04:25] <Grum> Minecraft is *NOT* a framework in any way
[04:25] <Arcanis_> Oh but it is.
[04:25] <Arcanis_> Whether you like it or not.
[04:25] <Arcanis_> It has been used as one.
[04:26] <Grum> well, that is saying that this rock is a stupid car because it drives so slow when you make it drive
[04:26] <Arcanis_> So you're saying that Minecraft is a rock. Me too.
[04:26] <Grum> yup :)
[04:26] <Arcanis_> So other people ahve to fix your code to make it work better.
[04:26] <Arcanis_> Because multithreading is a thing.
[04:27] <Grum> better for their use
[04:27] <Grum> multithreading is overrated
[04:27] <Arcanis_> o.O
[04:27] <Grum> highly so actually
[04:27] <Grum> unless you now want to claim you have *NO* issues at all threading the fuck out of mc :p
[04:27] <Arcanis_> Now I know you have no idea what you are talking about.
[04:27] <Arcanis_> Actually, I would prefer it in a bunch of separate threads.
[04:28] <Grum> me too
[04:28] <Arcanis_> Then do that.
[04:28] <Grum> and we can surely do that for some things
[04:28] <Grum> if we are able to break them apart >.>
[04:28] <Grum> stuff like chunk generation etc should be on different threads
[04:28] <Grum> different worlds should be
[04:28] <Arcanis_> Tick Threading does that.
[04:28] <Arcanis_> Attempts to.
[04:28] <Arcanis_> One thread per world.
[04:28] <Grum> but within a world? very little benefit
[04:29] <Grum> unless the system was designed to not care for order
[04:30] <Grum> for example
[04:30] <Grum> when a pumpkin grows in front of a budded piston
[04:30] <Grum> the same tick it grows it gets destroyed
[04:30] <Grum> now what if that triggers a whole row of pistons
[04:30] <Grum> but there were another couple of pumpkins still going to grow that tick .. but they just happened to be 'later'
[04:31] <Arcanis_> BUD = bug that should have been fixed, not implemented as a feature.
[04:31] <Grum> if it was designed that the piston did nothing until the first tick
[04:31] <Arcanis_> Then create an actual block update device block.
[04:31] <Grum> after
[04:31] <Grum> no, BUD is implementation leaking
[04:31] <Grum> it shouldn't exist at all
[04:31] <Grum> if a pumpin grows it should NOT tell its neighbours
[04:31] <Grum> it makes no sense doing so
[04:31] <Arcanis_> Actually I agree.
[04:31] <Grum> but, that is how the 'system' is done
[04:32] <Grum> now, that said
[04:32] <Grum> there are some problems
[04:32] <Grum> like: two pistons trying to extend
[04:32] <Grum> and one cannot because the other one did
[04:32] <Grum> that 'one that could not' is now in a funky state
[04:32] <Grum> its powered but it cannot extend
[04:32] <Grum> to me the solution is not not have it 'react to updates around it' -- because those shouldn't even exist
[04:33] <Grum> but simply not extend until you unpower it and power it again
[04:33] <Grum> (and then it obviously has to be able to)
[04:33] <Arcanis_> Hmm... Is powered, is extended. After a tick, if is powered and is extended aren't both true, extend, if can't extend, ignore and wait till it can.
[04:33] <Arcanis_> Something like that.
[04:33] <Grum> yeah and you just made the 'mistake' of now having to check EVERY tick if it can extend
[04:34] <Arcanis_> Hmm yes.
[04:34] <Arcanis_> I would have figured that out =P
[04:34] <Grum> which is less efficient than simply not extending if you cannot extend and then never extending UNTIL it gets repowred (so loss of power; then new power)
[04:34] <Arcanis_> Well that' s a good implementation.
[04:34] <Grum> ok, now please assume frmo me that i've been thinking about this shit since before beta 1.7 >.>
[04:35] <Grum> i have a huge todo list
[04:35] <Grum> but some of these changes break all the things
[04:35] <Grum> and i cannot do them unless stuff is cleanly split up
[04:35] <Grum> (because spaghetti code without tests makes impossible for changes without sideeffects)
[04:35] <Arcanis_> Yes that is agreeable.
[04:35] <Grum> Good! So my every day goal is to rip at the code to make it better, modular and more standalone
[04:36] <Grum> that is what i do
[04:36] <Grum> i do not try to gain glory with adding trivial shit to the game like some other devs
[04:36] <Grum> i do not bloat/boast about the shit i do
[04:36] <Grum> its very simple, if you see no change -- i did a good job
[04:36] <Grum> because it sure as hell works differently in the background after i'm done with it
[04:36] <Arcanis_> Alright.
[04:37] <Grum> Also all the things i do i try to do win a way that Forge can pick them up
[04:37] <Grum> remember the texture atlas? resourcepacks?
[04:37] <Arcanis_> I would like to leave off by saying to remember some of the concerns people have when you do the things you do.
[04:37] <Grum> i do; but realise that most of the concerns have no impact on the course we're talking
[04:37] <Grum> i mean the skin-server is a huge example
[04:38] <Grum> we simply had to do those changes because amazons loadbalancers cannot handle 5+ million requests/min for skindata
[04:38] <Grum> and people can then whine and scream and demand we not do it, do it differently or whatever, in the end -- we HAVE to do it
[04:38] <Grum> and we have a good idea how to do it with relatively minimal impact
[04:39] <Grum> and then people claim we do it because we want to take away control or whatever, --- in fact it was because the servers broke and no-one was seeing skins for long periods of time because of it
[04:40] <Grum> they just don't see/understand the full picture
[04:40] <Arcanis_> Hmm.
[04:40] <Grum> or even after explained flatout refuse to see it
[04:40] <Grum> and still claim we did lots of evil
[04:40] <Grum> this whole launcher crap is the same
[04:41] <Grum> We've gotten tons of reports about launchers stealing details
[04:41] <Grum> most of those are not 'big' ones
[04:41] <Grum> shit like Nodus etc or 'hacked' versions of that
[04:41] <Arcanis_> I think that's where it was for me.
[04:41] <Arcanis_> Dinnerbone said all unofficial launchers are unsafe.
[04:41] <Grum> they are
[04:41] <Arcanis_> But that just isn't true.
[04:41] <Grum> it is
[04:41] <Arcanis_> not..
[04:41] <Grum> ok lets phrase that differently
[04:41] <Grum> there is no way for them to prove they are NOT unsafe
[04:41] <Grum> therefor by definition they ARE unsafe
[04:42] <Arcanis_> I think CanVox was trying to come up with alternatives that were all shut down.
[04:42] <Arcanis_> And you ignored my alternatives.
[04:42] <Arcanis_> So we'll agree to disagree here and drop it.
[04:42] <Grum> you do realize that Markus has actually acked using lawyers? :/
[04:43] <Grum> I am not 100% sure he fully understands the true impact; could be he thinks people are 'stealing' user/pass -- or he does get people steal a minecraft identiy
[04:43] <Grum> not sure about that -- its a holiday here :p
[04:43] <Grum> so i cant walk in and ask ;)
[04:44] <Arcanis_> And that's where the disconnect is.
[04:44] <Grum> I gave a fully nicely working alternative that you can use that is foolproof
[04:44] <Arcanis_> That involves using the vanilla launcher.
[04:44] <Arcanis_> No thanks.
[04:44] <Grum> its not userfriendly at all -- but that matters nothing
[04:44] <Arcanis_> Matters a lot.
[04:44] <Arcanis_> user friendly. I am a user.
[04:44] <Arcanis_> It isn't friendly to me, but this other one is, so I use this other one.
[04:44] <Grum> yeah because 'its not friendly' justifies sending someones identity to a server to collect it? >.>
[04:45] <Arcanis_> Now we are saying identity?
[04:45] <Grum> well
[04:45] <Arcanis_> It's a cookie.
[04:45] <Arcanis_> Seriously you are crying over a cookie.
[04:45] <Grum> you are stealing the token to become a person on a server
[04:45] <Arcanis_> cookie
[04:45] <Grum> so lets just call it 'identity' (of a user)
[04:45] <Arcanis_> cookie
[04:45] <Arcanis_> Everytime you say it.
[04:45] <Grum> sure; login-cookie :)
[04:45] <Arcanis_> Session-cookie is better.
[04:45] <Arcanis_> Meaning it expires.
[04:46] <Arcanis_> And isn't usable.
[04:46] <Grum> client token? :/
[04:46] <Arcanis_> Or useful.
[04:46] <Grum> but it is useful
[04:46] <Grum> you can login as them on any server, pretend to be them
[04:46] <Arcanis_> Right.
[04:46] <Grum> and why? because you want to enforce DRM on users we do not even feel the need to enforce DRM on? :/
[04:46] <Arcanis_> So Technic is going to go out of their way to steal your cookie for a CHANCE at logging in as you before you log back in?
[04:47] <Grum> erm no, that cookie is valid until invalidated
[04:47] <Grum> so you can log in with that regardless
[04:47] <Arcanis_> Make it expire >_>
[04:47] <Arcanis_> Problem solved.
[04:47] <Grum> takes a day and then some
[04:47] <Arcanis_> Or invalidated when someone logs back in.
[04:47] <Grum> which it is
[04:47] <Arcanis_> Or can't be used when someone IS logged in.
[04:47] <Grum> that would be DRM we do not want to do
[04:48] <Arcanis_> You are already doing it.
[04:48] <Grum> no?
[04:48] <Arcanis_> It's your fucking token.
[04:48] <Grum> you cannot be twice on the same server
[04:48] <Grum> you can be on 10 different servers with the same token
[04:48] <Arcanis_> Like this is what I don't get. You are mad at someone else using the same system.
[04:48] <Grum> as long as you get the 'order' right
[04:48] <Arcanis_> So then it's poorly written.
[04:48] <Grum> no
[04:48] <Grum> we didn't feel the need to enforce it more
[04:48] <Grum> we can -- we don't want to
[04:49] <Arcanis_> I really need to stop.
[04:49] <Arcanis_> I need to eat food and do other things.
[04:49] <Grum> haha, yeah know the feeling :p
[04:49] <Grum> i guess you dont have a laptop?
[04:49] <Grum> i made a sandwich halfway
[04:49] <Arcanis_> No. I prefer a real computer.
[04:50] <Grum> its quite a real computer :)
[04:50] <Grum> i didn't say craptop ;)
[04:50] <Arcanis_> But as a final note.
[04:51] <Arcanis_> Everything said in this conversation, from start to finish, is 100% in context.
[04:51] <Arcanis_> Nothing said here can be misconstrued because all of the information is here.
[04:51] <Arcanis_> I'm saying that, because I'm obviously logging this.
[04:51] <Grum> And it was a private conversation as indicated by the irc protocol :)
[04:51] <Arcanis_> And that's why I'm being a decent human being.
[04:52] <Arcanis_> There is a lot in here that people want to know/
[04:52] <Arcanis_> I'd like to share this log.
[04:52] <Arcanis_> Verbatim.
[04:53] <Grum> Feel free to talk about what we talked about, wouldn't be useful to post a full log though
[04:53] <Arcanis_> It is rather long.
[04:53] <Arcanis_> I just wanted to make sure I had your consent before posting something you may not have wanted going out to the public.
[04:53] <Grum> yeah i wouldn't want people to know i wasted so much time on this =D
[04:53] <Arcanis_> right agreed
[04:54] <Grum> feel free to quote parts, feel free to even share the whole thing -- i think it would make us both look slightly silly for keeping it going for this long -- but hell such is life
[04:55] <Arcanis_> Alright well. It's been an interesting talk. Have a nice holiday. I must be going now.