Nixon Ehrlichman Theory of Watergate March 16 1973

A very interesting conversation between President Nixon and aide John Ehrlichman, where Ehrlichman lays out his theory of what took place behind the scenes to bring about the Watergate burglary. Other subjects touched on include Howard Hughes, Robert Vesco, and surveillance of Ted Kennedy, as well as how to deal with the unfolding Watergate scandal.

Audio is taken from here. Segment one fragment starts at 15:13; segment two begins at 34:32 on the same file, and goes to the end:
http://nixon.archives.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape420/420-011b.mp3

Segment two also includes the beginning of this audio file as well:
http://nixon.archives.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape420/420-011c.mp3

Breaks in the transcript are indicated by a pair of times contained in parenthesis, say (22:16-24:40), indicating the corresponding start and stop of the gap in the audio file.

Transcript is taken mainly from Stanley Kutler's Abuse of Power, with some supplementary material also taken from John Dean's The Nixon Defense; the remainder, mainly those sections dealing with Vesco, were filled in by the uploader.

MARCH 16, 1973: THE PRESIDENT AND EHRLICHMAN, 3:00-4:47 P.M., EXECUTIVE OFFICE BUILDING

Nixon's problems extend to family matters. His brother and nephew are closely linked to the notorious Robert Vesco, already indicted for various illegal financial schemes. Ehrlichman is in charge of the problem. But Watergate inevitably intrudes. Nixon assures Ehrlichman he was trying "to keep you out of it for other reasons" - probably a reference to Ehrlichman's and Colson's roles with the Plumbers. They discuss their inability to control Senator Howard Baker.

In his memoir, John Ehrlichman acknowledged his daily talks with the President at this time but claimed "he wasn't talking to me about Watergate." But the two regularly review the story, trying to determine what exactly Nixon could reveal. Ehrlichman pushes the President to blame the break-in on John Mitchell. They realize that "Watergate" is far more than the break-in. The President protests he cannot afford a cover-up, yet that and other nefarious activities, such as financing the shadowing of Senator Edward Kennedy, have to be concealed. Ehrlichman concedes that their "extracurricular activities" were not too "savory," but he credits the White House (and himself) for not using the FBI to spy on Kennedy.

EHRLICHMAN
A couple of family problems...

NIXON
Donny [Nixon, the President's nephew]?

EHRLICHMAN
Don [Nixon] Senior [the President's brother]...But did you know there's been a very vigorous Internal Revenue investigation of the Howard Hughes empire?

NIXON
Oh, yeah.

EHRLICHMAN
Don [Sr.], because of his contacts with [John] Meier back in the old days now comes up as a witness, and the IRS wants to contact him. So they asked me if we had any objection to his being interviewed. I have held off answering until we got our new man in place...

NIXON
Sure.

EHRLICHMAN
And then I'm gonna suggest that he be interviewed by somebody in the Commissioner's office, rather than someone at the field office. And, so  (unintelligible)...Then they've asked also to interview Rebozo. Because...two of the Hughes guys have told conflicting stories about campaign donations.

NIXON
Yeah, yeah.

EHRLICHMAN
And I talked to Bebe about this. And he has no objection to giving them the straight dope. But, again, we're going to hold off until Alexander is in place. And then Roger Bart will look out for him.

NIXON
Hughes (unintelligible)?

EHRLICHMAN
They stole some money.

NIXON
(unintelligible)

EHRLICHMAN
Well, see one of them says he gave Rebozo a hundred fifty thousand dollars in cash. And he, of course, didn't. But what he did do, was, according to the IRS, he went downstairs, in the gambling casino, and took it out of the till. And said to his partner, I'm gonna give this to Rebozo as a campaign donation. One of the other guys said, no we gave fifty. And so the IRS said, well now, we've got to talk to Rebozo find out which it was. Somebody's liable for a hundred thousand dollars in income tax.

NIXON
Not Rebozo?

EHRLICHMAN
Oh no. He has no liability. But he's an important witness in determining where the liability lies.

NIXON
Have we gotten Donny [Jr.] out of the Vesco thing?

EHRLICHMAN
He won't leave.

NIXON
Why won't they let him?

EHRLICHMAN
We have no control over Vesco at this point at all.

NIXON
I see, because we can't-

EHRLICHMAN
Because we indicted him, you know, and he's headed for prosecution. But the kid will not leave. I have talked to him like a Dutch uncle. Eddie [Nixon, the President's brother] has talked to him, and he cannot persuade him that he's hurting himself, you, and everybody else by staying.

NIXON
What's he do?

EHRLICHMAN
Well, he's a gofer. He just runs errands, that kind of stuff, and they make him feel like a big shot. They let him sit in on meetings and so forth. He says, oh, I'm learning a great deal about business. He says I couldn't get this kind of an education in school.

NIXON
I thought John...

EHRLICHMAN
Well, we thought we had at one point, and that's probably the last time we talked about it. Ed was going to take him - this was just before the election - Ed was going to take him and go east, travel with Ed, and they were to meet at a certain time and Don didn't show up. And Ed called and he was still down there, and he said, no, I've changed my mind. I'm going to stay here. And I've talked to him twice since.

NIXON
Well, it's going to come out, so what are you going to do about it...?

EHRLICHMAN
It's a matter of public knowledge. The <i>Star</i> has run a story about it, and then it's in the <i>New Republic</i> this week, and so on. But they can't let it go on. The way the angle of the thing is played is, Vesco has done his best to attach himself to your family by various devices like taking this kind on his payroll and so on and so forth. And nobody has been able to establish him having any wrongdoing...

NIXON
(unintelligible)

EHRLICHMAN
Well, the innuendo is there, yeah.

NIXON
(unintelligible) credit reduction.

EHRLICHMAN
That's right. And the thing that it is about, is the fact that I blacklisted Vesco in every embassy in the world. Because he was going around hot-shotting, saying that the White House was behind me and so on, and I had to say to that he was to get no special favors or consideration. This was way early in the game. Just after he got out of jail, he was using Mitchell's name and my name and everybody's name - I've just met him. I don't know him. But his people have been brought into my office...

NIXON
I heard every lawyer in town-

EHRLICHMAN
Oh God, yes. Everybody. Except Colson. (Unintelligible) hired Colson's firm. They were able to pay him.

NIXON
(unintelligible)

EHRLICHMAN
Chotiner, Smathers.

NIXON
Chotiner!

EHRLICHMAN
[Murray] Chotiner's been working for him.

NIXON
What the hell's he doing for him?

EHRLICHMAN
He [Chotiner] comes in. He tried to see me and I wouldn't see him. My assistant [Tod R. Hullin] talked to him, and he had a deal. Vesco would fix us up in South America. He'd act as an operative down there and he'd deliver South American governments to us, and this and that, if we laid off the criminal prosecution.  And beside it is there's an element of blackmail that the worst isn't yet out and that it's going to hurt the Administration if they tell all they know, and this, that, and the other thing.

NIXON
Like what?

EHRLICHMAN
They don't specify. For a long time, it was Eddie's involvement...and then there was the $250,000. For a long time, they were-

NIXON
...For Christ's sakes, return the contribution. We shouldn't have taken it...

EHRLICHMAN
Well, Eddie, poor fellow, he was just purely sucked in...

(22:16-24:40)

NIXON
But Murray [Chotiner] disappoints me.

EHRLICHMAN
I know. Yea.

NIXON
I guess he just can't-

EHRLICHMAN
They offered Colson's firm a hundred grand retainer, at the beginning, and I understand they offered Smathers more than that...And they've got two firms in New York working on this...The SEC told me that it's a very, very tight case...The way this will probably end up, he will go to Costa Rica, where he's bought the president.

NIXON
[Jose] Figueres?

EHRLICHMAN
Yeah.

NIXON
No good sonofabitch.

EHRLICHMAN
Well, they have bought him lock, stock, and barrel. He's been writing letters about Vesco, and...

(25:43-27:42)

NIXON
Do you have to run?

EHRLICHMAN
No, no.

NIXON
Then let me ask you about one other thing.

EHRLICHMAN
Sure.

NIXON
I've been talking deliberately, trying to keep Bob and you out of this as much as possible of conversations with Dean.

EHRLICHMAN
That's worked pretty well, I think.

NIXON
(unintelligible) Poor Bob is so hurt now, actually.

EHRLICHMAN
Well, I've appreciated that.

NIXON
I've tried to keep you out of it for other reasons [i.e., the Plumbers], and I've - actually, and naturally, Colson is gone, I want to keep him [Colson] out of it because he's involved too.

EHRLICHMAN
Yeah...

SEGMENT TWO

34:32-

EHRLICHMAN
Sloan apparently is, apparently pissed off with Magruder.

NIXON
Certainly.

EHRLICHMAN
Now, the reason he's pissed off at Magruder is he thinks Magruder lied. And Magruder, apparently Magruder, as I piece it together...Magruder was the one that directed Sloan to pay money for certain [persons?] I don't know whether that's right or not.

NIXON
Okay. Now...we give him a job in the government. That pisses off Sloan.

EHRLICHMAN
Now there's a jealousy, there's a long time jealousy there.

NIXON
What jealousy?

EHRLICHMAN
Between Sloan and Magruder.

NIXON
About what?

EHRLICHMAN
Oh, it goes way back to the time when they were both here. I don't know what the basis of it is...

(35:20-37:45)

NIXON
...According to my understanding, I understand it, Magruder was quite a talker, and he told Dean that Mitchell knew and that Haldeman knew.

EHRLICHMAN
But he doesn't say that when he's talking to Haldeman.

NIXON
Then what in the hell has he been saying to Dean?

EHRLICHMAN
Jeb is shopping a little different story to two or three people around here. I've never talked to him, but I have the impression that Jeb has said rather cleverly to Dean, Haldeman's got a problem. And he says to Haldeman, Mitchell's got a problem, or Colson's got a problem. Which is what he says to Bob, and so he's trying to make us sweat a little here.

NIXON
Wonderful.

EHRLICHMAN
He's doing it to protect himself. He's looking for backing...

NIXON
Or do you think that it's more possible that Mitchell was in on it, or possibly that Colson was in on it. I don't think that Haldeman could have been in on it...

EHRLICHMAN
Well, let me tell you, I'll give you my...

NIXON
The reason is, if I know the facts, then I know what we have to-

EHRLICHMAN
I can't tell you the facts, I don't know them.

NIXON
-have an idea of what can come out. Some people have to be protected here. Mitchell, Haldeman, above all. Colson, yes. Because he's fairly close...not the same as Mitchell and Haldeman.

EHRLICHMAN
I'll give you my theory of the case. It is that Colson felt the need to know a great deal more about the opposition than he knew. He felt the need to have the ability to know, so his need to have apparatus, and that Colson either directly to Magruder, which I think is the case, or through Mitchell, did not specify the operation but said I've got to know what's going on, we've got to know what the White House is going on, what the hell are they talking about, who was [Lawrence] O'Brien seeing, so on and so forth. And kept the pressure on. That - Magruder...

NIXON
But not necessarily doing a bugging.

EHRLICHMAN
No.

NIXON
I can't imagine Colson doing that.

EHRLICHMAN
No.

NIXON
That's not Colson's operation.

EHRLICHMAN
That's right.

NIXON
Colson talks too much, but he is quite discreet in his - that kind of operation...

EHRLICHMAN
I think he was just above the line. And the pressure was on to get results. And he was probably saying to him-

NIXON
That was from the time of ITT.

EHRLICHMAN
It was after that. It would be between ITT and the time Mitchell went over there.

NIXON
Oh oh, I think it was the time basically they were raising hell about our ten million dollars?

EHRLICHMAN
That-

NIXON
(inaudible)

EHRLICHMAN
There was a period of time when we were going to go to San Diego. And there was...

NIXON
Oh, for the convention.

EHRLICHMAN
For the convention. And there was alot of fear that the Democrats were going to use demonstrators.

NIXON
Yeah, I remember. The three hundred thousand.

EHRLICHMAN
And there was also that [rumor] that the Democrats had entered into an illegal alliance with [Florida governor Reubin] Askew for the financing of their convention in Florida.

NIXON
So, they were just trying to find that out.

EHRLICHMAN
And there were a lot of things floating around that particular job. (noise) Now, Magruder called in Liddy, at least my theory indicates, and he said, Gordon, you've got to get these results for me and get them believable. Liddy said I'll take care of it. Don't worry about a thing. But it's going to cost you. Magruder said how much, and he said 100 grand, or whatever it was. So Magruder called Sloan and said Gordon's going to come down and see you. Give him $100,000. Sloan said, well, what does Mitchell say about that? I can't just lay out that kind of money. Mr. Stans won't let me. So Jeb says I'll have John call you. Jeb called John and said, listen, you've got to call Sloan and clear this - and I'm just making all this up now, but this is the kind of thing I can see him in. He says, John, he's over with Justice. He said, you've got to call Sloan for me and clear the expenditure of $100,000, cash, and Mitchell said well, what's it for. Well, he said Gordon Liddy is going to undertake to get that information that I keep getting badgered about from the White House.

NIXON
About the Democratic convention.

EHRLICHMAN
Or whatever. And Mitchell says are you sure you can do it? Jeb says, yeah, I think I kind of know how we can do it. I think Liddy can pull it off. And Mitchell said okay, I'll call him. So he calls Sloan and says, go ahead [and give the money]. And it was that kind of an almost casual undertaking, to begin with, not a backroom conspiratorial day before they said we'll go in the basement, and put scotch tape on the locks, and all that kind of stuff. Now we've got a backtape on the locks and all that kind of stuff. And then Liddy, being a kind of a nut, sat down with Hunt and said, okay, how are we going to pull this operation off? And Hunt said, listen I know I've got five Cubans [who] will come here for that kind of dough and they'll crack the United States Treasury for that. So, they had to go to McCord for equipment. The security director.  And he [Hunt] said, ‘Well, we need some walkie-talkies, we need burglary tools, and we need this and we need that.’ And McCord says, ‘What the hell are you guys up to?’ And they told him, and they tied him into the operation. And that's how she went. Now that's a guess.

NIXON
We were getting reports-

EHRLICHMAN
But then they were getting reports - Liddy was getting the reports and my hunch is that he was sharing them with Magruder, Colson, and probably Mitchell.

NIXON
And Strachan...

EHRLICHMAN
And Strachan.

NIXON
(unintelligible)

EHRLICHMAN
And there was pretty juicy stuff in there.

[REDACTED - image of someone with binoculars]

EHRLICHMAN
I don't know. That's the only thing I've had to find out what was in it. When that ACLU thing cropped up. But I suspect, without knowing, that Mitchell, probably advised himself of all the general parameters of the operation through Fred LaRue, who was keeping him - he was sort of Mitchell's eyes and ears.

NIXON
Fred told me about it...

EHRLICHMAN
Yup, he has. He's going to be a witness in this thing, and I suppose Eastland will look after him...So, that's how I could see it unraveling. If you want to lay it all out, that's the way you lay it out.

NIXON
Now, the query I have is...even if Mitchell is involved, we can't put it all out, is there something that could be said for at least putting out...this is what the facts are as far as we know...Well, Goddamn it, as I've often said, John, first, if the facts are going to come out, let's get them out. I mean let's get them out, because far worse than the facts here is the coverup. Okay, that was my phrase, is the coverup. I don't know.

EHRLICHMAN
Supposing you were to look at it this way, and I've thought a lot about this. Supposing you were to say Mitchell's future, Colson's future, Ehrlichman's future, whoever, is not as important as the integrity of the presidency.

NIXON
Integrity of the presidency, that's right.

EHRLICHMAN
If you accept the premise, then there is really nothing at all that you can't say.

NIXON
I believe that.

EHRLICHMAN
And let the chips fall where they may...

NIXON
I believe that, I believe that, except for Haldeman.

EHRLICHMAN
I understand, I understand.

NIXON
I told you that. Except for Haldeman. Because I don't think Haldeman...I can't believe that he...(unintelligible)

EHRLICHMAN
I'm satisfied that he doesn't have any-

NIXON
I never asked him. I don't want to-

EHRLICHMAN
I have.

NIXON
I don't want to get in any position where Bob feels he has to- (unintelligible)

EHRLICHMAN
-flatly and I've cross-examined him. The question of Strachan...there's no link. Except on paper.

NIXON
(unintelligible)

EHRLICHMAN
But: if you accept the premise that the presidency needs this as an institution, and I have particularly in the last week or ten days more and more come to the feeling that we have more to lose by being cute about this than we have by letting it all hang out in the sense of the presidency. That's who "we" is, the presidency. If you once accept that premise, then I think the way to go is not to try and hold anything back, because there's a very complex set of interrelationships and there isn't any convenient place to draw the line. See, the element we haven't discussed that is a problem here is the money.

NIXON
Yeah, I know.

EHRLICHMAN
And that's a very complicated fact pattern; which loop reaches out, touches Kalmbach and comes back, while the Segretti loop also reaches out and touches Kalmbach and comes back.

NIXON
Does it involve Kalmbach in any illegal activity?

EHRLICHMAN
Not that I know of. No.

NIXON
Good.

EHRLICHMAN
But he was a fund-raiser, and he raised cash and such. The Segretti thing is troublesome because it gets into Kalmbach's bank accounts, and before there was a campaign committee, as you know, that we operated a lot of money through Herb's bank accounts for all kinds of activities.

NIXON
Oh, yeah, before we had - in other words, this was money that was-

EHRLICHMAN
Left over from a previous campaign or raised in the meantime, and it was sitting there in boxes of cash and there was a lot of it. And we financed a hell of a lot of stuff of all kinds with that money - polls and investigations and all sorts of stuff. Now, that opens a lot of collateral matters the minute you get into that.

NIXON
Like what?

EHRLICHMAN
Oh, like the guy [Tony Ulasewicz] we had shadowing Teddy Kennedy for eight or nine months.

NIXON
Oh, yeah. We don't want to get into that.

EHRLICHMAN
That kind of stuff.

NIXON
My point is, with regard to having that fund...

EHRLICHMAN
Oh, if you can draw the line there, fine. But if you get into the withdrawals. And the disposition of it, you open up a real nest of worms.

NIXON
Now...can we avoid that?

EHRLICHMAN
I don't know. There, again, you can't be a little bit pregnant in this way. You gotta decide if you're gonna go on it, you gotta let it all hang out there.

NIXON
Alright. Well, if it comes out, then what happens?

EHRLICHMAN
Well, it characterizes some of our extracurricular activities as not too savory.

NIXON
Yeah. And the shadowing of Teddy Kennedy.

EHRLICHMAN
Sure. Now there's only one way to read that. That's - it's to our credit in the sense that we didn't have the FBI do it. But we're not going to get the benefit of the doubt and it's going to make for juicy reading - keep track of a United States Senator in his off hours for nine months, that's subject to...

NIXON
The Ervin committee presumably goes into that?

EHRLICHMAN
Well, I think you have to assume that they'll go into anything they get a chance to go into. This general counsel of theirs has a statement in the paper today that they intend to follow every lead regardless of where it goes...

NIXON
With regard to (unintelligible)...

EHRLICHMAN
Well, you can expect...well, some of them have already been subpoenaed, some of the bank records. There are others. It's all which bank to subpoena. They get Kalmbach on the stand, one of the first things they're gonna ask him is: where did you make big bank payments? And he's gonna face a tough choice right there. He's gonna decide to let it all go, and he says, I went here, here, and here. On the other hand, he can try and hold the parameters of this thing. And he doesn't say anything. He tries to hold this thing best he can. And he's walking with (unintelligible). He's totally dependent on it.

NIXON
Yeah.

EHRLICHMAN
You got my records.

NIXON
You got my records. Here they are. Give them enough.

EHRLICHMAN
Yeah.

NIXON
Give them enough that they'll-

EHRLICHMAN
So anyway, the hell of it is that even - it comes back to Bob in another way that I've never mentioned to him, but for some time we had [Frank Lane or Frank Raines] on the payroll. Frank was paid out of all these boxes. He was supposed to be doing odd jobs on various task forces in Southern California for (Herb Kalmbach?). He was a bagman. He was delivering money. He was in contact with people. Paying our sleuths...

(53:10-1:00:10)

NIXON
Well, coming back, though, to the presidency, John, as you know, I remember one other thing, which was [Eisenhower's Chief of Staff] Sherman Adams.

EHRLICHMAN
Right. He served him up, didn't he?

NIXON
In the end. He did a lot that made it pretty easy to do so, but he did it, because Eisenhower, properly so, felt that the presidency had to be protected. And I feel the same way. I mean, I cannot - you cannot...figure the President is covering up the Goddamn thing...My view would be that that would be a separate report, what happened and so on, so on, so on, and here is what happened on Watergate. Now, that said, we furnish the statement to the committee..That's one way we could do it...

EHRLICHMAN
Yes. The problem...Well, it's almost impossible to draw that document-

NIXON
Dean's working on it.

EHRLICHMAN
-to make it the whole truth, make it consistent with the extensive facts, and have it hold together without going all the way. I mean, you have to incriminate Mitchell to some extent and so on.

NIXON
Well...he approved it. There's no doubt about that.

EHRLICHMAN
Alright. Okay.

(1:02:40-1:04:19)

EHRLICHMAN
We've been over this a number of times, and every time we've decided no, that we can't do it because there's no way to do an effective job of disclosure and tie up all the loose ends in this thing...It's the nagging loose ends, the little inconsistent fact, the unassailable piece of evidence that wasn't included is always the thing that plagues you and makes you worry about it.