September 3: Late Night #Hisouten discord conversations

[12:52 AM] Aristocrat: https://twitter.com/hectormorenco/status/904134539764580352

Hector Morenco (@hectormorenco)
Absolute nightmare in England as settled refugees begin to protest for the implementation of Sharia law. https://t.co/M3ISvA5BLO
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[12:52 AM] Aristocrat: Well this happened quicker than I expected
[12:52 AM] Aristocrat: wouldn't have expected this until about a 15-20% Islamic population
[12:52 AM] Aristocrat: Well this happened quicker than I expected
[12:52 AM] Aristocrat: wouldn't have expected this until about a 15-20% Islamic population
[12:56 AM] Sailol: London is like
[12:56 AM] Sailol: Heavily segregated
[12:57 AM] Sailol: some parts of london have over 50% muslim populations, despite being only 12.4% of the city's population
[12:57 AM] Aristocrat: This is Bradford
[12:57 AM] Aristocrat: I'm sure it's happened in London already
[12:57 AM] Aristocrat: given that London has had highly Islamic bouroughs for a long time before this refugee thing
[12:58 AM] Sailol: 24% in bradford
[12:58 AM] Aristocrat: Damn lol
[12:58 AM] Sailol: in 2011
[12:58 AM] Sailol: most probably higher nowadays
[12:59 AM] Aristocrat: I had the impression that the UK was like 6% Islamic
[12:59 AM] Sailol: Just looked it up, it is still only 24%
[12:59 AM] Aristocrat: maybe that's still true but I bet Scotland and Northern Ireland bring that average down
[1:00 AM] Sailol: It's actually 4.4% on the whole country, acording to wiki
[1:00 AM] Sailol: again, in 2011
[1:00 AM] Sailol: and only 5.05% in england
[1:00 AM] Sailol: they just tend to live in certain cities
[1:00 AM] Aristocrat: Hmm so it's an urban phenomenon
[1:00 AM] Aristocrat: kinda sucks for the city dwellers though
[1:00 AM] Sailol: Urban would be too general, I think
[1:01 AM] Sailol: Only certain cities at that
[1:01 AM] Sailol: A list, again from wiki using 2011 data, of the ten highest muslim boroughs
[1:01 AM] Sailol: London Borough of Tower Hamlets 34.5% 87,696
London Borough of Newham 32.0% 98,456
Blackburn with Darwen 27.4% 38,817
City of Bradford 24.7% 129,041
Luton 24.6% 49,991
London Borough of Redbridge 23.3% 64,999
Slough 23.3% 32,655
London Borough of Waltham Forest 21.9% 56,541
Birmingham 21.8% 234,411
Leicester 18.6% 61,440
London Borough of Brent 18.6% 58,036
City of Westminster 18.3% 40,073
Metropolitan Borough of Oldham 17.7% 39,879
Pendle 17.4% 15,579
London Borough of Enfield 16.7% 52,141
Manchester 15.8% 79,496
London Borough of Ealing 15.7% 53,198
Kirklees 14.5% 61,280
London Central Mosque interior
London Borough of Haringey 14.2% 36,130
London Borough of Hackney 14.1% 34,727
[1:02 AM] Sailol: A large number of them within london
[1:02 AM] Sailol: Bradford is high up there
[1:02 AM] Sailol: Luton is also pretty high
[1:02 AM] Aristocrat: Man
[1:03 AM] Aristocrat: Demographics clumping themselves into high density areas isn't new, but they should mind their own business
[1:03 AM] Aristocrat: like you don't see Chinatown residents spilling out into the streets marching for this mess
[1:03 AM] Parapraxium: you reap what you sow
[1:03 AM] Parapraxium: sorry uk
[1:04 AM] Aristocrat: it's not just UK
[1:04 AM] Aristocrat: I know Islamic population broke 10% in Copenhagen/Malmo/Paris/Brussels/Rotterdam
[1:04 AM] Aristocrat: probably Amsterdam at this point as well
[1:05 AM] Aristocrat: it's all over EU
[1:05 AM] Sailol: Over certain EU countries, tbh
[1:05 AM] Sailol: the "gibs" countries
[1:06 AM] Sailol: no muslim economic migrant wants to live in greece
[1:06 AM] Sailol: because greece can't pay for their wellfare
[1:06 AM] Sailol: and a very large number of them do not wish to work
[1:06 AM] Aristocrat: How many Jewish refugees were caused by Nazi Germany
[1:07 AM] Sailol: It's not even like US emigration, they just go there and leach on the tax dollars of their countries without even providing basic work
[1:07 AM] Sailol: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-survey-idUSKBN13A22F
U.S.
Only 13 percent of recent refugees in Germany have found work: survey
When refugees started arriving in Germany in large numbers last summer, many politicians and economists feted them as a solution to a skilled labor shortage, but a survey published on Tuesday shows that only around 1 in 8 have found jobs so far.
[1:07 AM] Sailol: >only 13 percent
[1:07 AM] Sailol: WEW LAD
[1:07 AM] Aristocrat: Didn't Merkel advertise Muslim refugees as laborers
[1:07 AM] Aristocrat: surely she will be held accountable for this
[1:07 AM] Aristocrat: (lol)
[1:08 AM] Parapraxium: lmao
[1:08 AM] Sailol: Even worse, for those not considered refugees
[1:08 AM] Sailol: Herbert Bruecker of the IAB Institute for Employment Research said experience showed around 50 percent of migrants tended to have found employment after living in Germany for five years, at least 60 percent were in work after 10 years and 70 percent after 15 years.
[1:08 AM] Sailol: 50 percent of MIGRANTS
[1:08 AM] PhoenixM: yeah, that's the spin Merkel put on it
[1:08 AM] Sailol: holy shit lad
[1:08 AM] Sailol: literal welfare leaches
[1:09 AM] PhoenixM: Hm, I'm curious if there's more precise data on that
[1:09 AM] PhoenixM: would be interesting to parse through it
[1:09 AM] Aristocrat: Nah, it's racist to collect that data, so it doesn't exist
[1:09 AM] Aristocrat: (Thanks thoughtcrime policing)
[1:10 AM] Aristocrat: I would like to know how the whole Jewish exodus after WWII worked out
[1:11 AM] Aristocrat: Tried looking for data all I got were psychological-shaming articles from NYT and Times trying to tell us Syrian refugees are exactly like Jews fleeing Nazi Germany
[1:11 AM] Sailol: There probably was a lot less data collection there
[1:12 AM] Aristocrat: I mostly want to know the integration process for Jews and how the local communities received them
[1:12 AM] Sailol: and I guess a lot of Jewish refugees did not get long standing jobs considering they went to israel shortly
[1:12 AM] Sailol: after
[1:12 AM] Aristocrat: Because nothing like these Muslim protests happened when Jews went to other countries
[1:12 AM] PhoenixM: I saw an interesting bit on that Aristo
[1:12 AM] Sailol: Jews don't proselitize
[1:12 AM] Parapraxium: because the jews actually have a work ethic
[1:12 AM] Sailol: that's a part of their religion
[1:12 AM] Aristocrat: as far as I know they integrated, reached income parity with native population in about a decade, and nothing else interesting occurred
[1:12 AM] PhoenixM: but it mostly dealt with the percentage of Americans at that time who didn't want the jews over here
[1:12 AM] Aristocrat: it was like 60% right
[1:12 AM] PhoenixM: vs. Syria's stuff now
[1:12 AM] PhoenixM: yeah
[1:12 AM] PhoenixM: about that
[1:13 AM] Aristocrat: US was dealing with Great Depression
[1:13 AM] Aristocrat: so it made sense
[1:13 AM] Sailol: Wasn't it over at that point?
[1:13 AM] Aristocrat: plus at that point in time the Holocaust has not happened yet
[1:13 AM] Aristocrat: nah this is the 30s
[1:13 AM] Aristocrat: idk public opinion during the war
[1:13 AM] Sailol: So they were just getting over it
[1:13 AM] Aristocrat: Well think about it
[1:13 AM] Sailol: But yeah, Jews have weird work ethics
[1:13 AM] Aristocrat: Most Americans still think our economy is shit right now
[1:14 AM] Aristocrat: even though we hit 22k DJIA
[1:14 AM] Aristocrat: and NASDAQ is higher than ever
[1:14 AM] Aristocrat: it takes a while for news of economic prosperity to propagate and sink in
[1:14 AM] Sailol: The income parity is in the shitter though
[1:14 AM] Parapraxium: i want dow jones to dominate me
[1:14 AM] Sailol: Lots of poor people
[1:15 AM] Aristocrat: There are two kinds of poor people
[1:15 AM] Sailol: If a large number of americans are poor, and a large number of middle class americans see shit neighbourhoods
[1:15 AM] Aristocrat: - Those who are poor because of their own problems
[1:15 AM] Sailol: they are going to think that they are in the shitter
[1:15 AM] PhoenixM: Aristo
[1:15 AM] PhoenixM: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CT9-1b8WoAAfYWt.jpg

[1:15 AM] Aristocrat: - Those who are poor thanks to factors out of their own control
[1:15 AM] PhoenixM: found a source
[1:15 AM] Parapraxium: more like people dont want to accept the fact that the new administration has economic policies that bolster growth
[1:15 AM] PhoenixM: and this was in 1938
[1:15 AM] Aristocrat: Most poor people are the former but advertise themselves as the latter
[1:15 AM] Aristocrat: and we can't tell
[1:15 AM] Aristocrat: government doesn't care
[1:15 AM] Aristocrat: everyone gets a check
[1:15 AM] Sailol: Even in the obama administration people thought that they were down the shitter
[1:16 AM] PhoenixM: mfw worse than I recalled
[1:16 AM] PhoenixM: granted the phrasing is different
[1:16 AM] Sailol: And aristo
[1:16 AM] Sailol: do you have data backing that?
[1:16 AM] PhoenixM: and may have influence on those results
[1:16 AM] Sailol: I don't know enough about american poor people to make a judgement, but I would like to make an informed one
[1:16 AM] Aristocrat: I don't have data to back that, but I also don't think it's even possible to collect that data
[1:16 AM] Aristocrat: How would you survey the population to determine these two divisions
[1:17 AM] Aristocrat: Not only would nobody fund this study because it's offensive
[1:17 AM] Sailol: You would probably not do a survey
[1:17 AM] Aristocrat: But people would always put themselves in the second category
[1:17 AM] Sailol: because it wouldn't even work
[1:17 AM] Sailol: assuming your hypothesis is correct, ofc
[1:17 AM] Sailol: that they advertise themselves as the latter
[1:18 AM] Aristocrat: I think it's a plausible hypothesis
[1:18 AM] Sailol: However, there are many, many methods of gauging participation on job markets and job adquisition
[1:18 AM] Sailol: Newspaper subscriptions, amounts of job interviews taken, etc
[1:19 AM] Sailol: With how orwellian data adquision in the US is, I am sure that it would be possible to create such an index
[1:19 AM] Sailol: to base policy on
[1:19 AM] Aristocrat: This is anecdotal
[1:19 AM] Aristocrat: But my past job was tutoring and helping my students find jobs and get into college
[1:20 AM] Aristocrat: Every single student successfully found employment
[1:20 AM] Aristocrat: even the ones who aren't so bright
[1:20 AM] Aristocrat: My recent situation also placed me firmly into the unemployed group and I couldn't job hunt while a lawsuit was ongoing
[1:21 AM] Aristocrat: but as soon as I started looking for a job I had 3 >$80k offers in 2 weeks with nothing on my resume (no work experience, no GPA because I don't want them calling my school and finding out I got expelled) except Aristobot
[1:22 AM] Aristocrat: callback rate was 27/44
[1:22 AM] Aristocrat: or about 60%
[1:22 AM] Sailol: I mean, I also personally belive that succes in life is mostly to do with the ammount of effort one puts into anything
[1:22 AM] Sailol: Aneccdotally, I know that mathematical ability is mostly developed in this way
[1:22 AM] Sailol: I've seen absolute idiots become versed in mathematics by sheer force of will
[1:23 AM] Sailol: However, I'd say that the same might not apply to all job markets
[1:23 AM] Sailol: The manufacturing one, for example, is often placed at a very low point in particular regions
[1:23 AM] Sailol: usually blaming NAFTA
[1:24 AM] Sailol: And if it is the car and aerospace manufacturing industries, rightly so
[1:24 AM] Sailol: others, not so much
[1:24 AM] Aristocrat: You can't really do much about skilled labor being structurally unemployed
[1:24 AM] Aristocrat: however you can stop being poor in a lot more ways than that
[1:25 AM] Sailol: Sure, but then again, at the risk of contradicting myself
[1:25 AM] PhoenixM: there have been a number of studies regarding that
[1:25 AM] PhoenixM: NAFTA and manufacturing
[1:25 AM] Sailol: I'll say that older people will probably have a harder time learning a new skill and area
[1:25 AM] PhoenixM: it's mostly been automation that's responsible
[1:25 AM] PhoenixM: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[1:25 AM] Sailol: Well, I mean
[1:26 AM] PhoenixM: NAFTA hasn't been that impactful
[1:26 AM] Sailol: We do export cars at alarming rates now
[1:26 AM] Aristocrat: Sure, but the bulk of unemployed US citizens fall within the <24 yo range
[1:26 AM] Sailol: and we are starting to do so in the aerospace industry too
[1:26 AM] Sailol: I think that certain manufacturers have been hitted by automation harder
[1:27 AM] Sailol: but I think that cars are not exactly in that range, but i could be wrong, I'm mostly talking about the absolute increase in car plants in mexico these past few years
[1:28 AM] Sailol: you know, the trade deficit is actually kinda small, we buy all your electronics, you buy all our cars
[1:28 AM] Sailol: cars are usually worth more than electronics
[1:28 AM] Sailol: anyways
[1:28 AM] Sailol: Yeah, maybe, but then there is also the fact
[1:28 AM] Aristocrat: the trade deficit is literally caused by cars
[1:28 AM] Sailol: as  Phenix pointed out
[1:29 AM] Sailol: that automation is eating a lot of jobs atm
[1:29 AM] Aristocrat: You can't (and shouldn't) stop automation
[1:29 AM] Aristocrat: it does create a problem that those jobs will never come back
[1:29 AM] Sailol: But the trade deficit with mexico is also kinda small tbh, at least compared to your other main partners, sans canada
[1:29 AM] Sailol: that being china and germany
[1:30 AM] Aristocrat: but again, this is a problem that any sufficiently capable non-disabled individual can solve
[1:30 AM] Aristocrat: If you are unemployed in the US at this point there are many avenues out
[1:30 AM] Sailol: such as?
[1:31 AM] Parapraxium: suicide
[1:31 AM] Sailol: wew lad
[1:31 AM] Aristocrat: plsno
[1:31 AM] Aristocrat: Depends on who you are, what your existing skillset is, how old you are, where you live
[1:31 AM] Aristocrat: The worst case scenario (criminal history, ghetto, no marketable skills, >40 yo)
[1:32 AM] Brightroot: worst case scenario we send ya to the glue facotry
[1:32 AM] Brightroot: like a HORSE
[1:32 AM] Aristocrat: You would likely have to request assistance from local charities or find some other means of subsisting
[1:32 AM] PhoenixM: actually para
[1:32 AM] PhoenixM: during the great depression
[1:32 AM] PhoenixM: the only notable uptick in mortality rates
[1:32 AM] PhoenixM: was in suicide
[1:33 AM] PhoenixM: and general health (in terms of life expectancy) actually improved
[1:33 AM] PhoenixM: :QuiteThoughtful~1:
[1:33 AM] Brightroot: take a shotgun to your mouth. improve your health
[1:33 AM] Brightroot: :thumbsup:
[1:33 AM] Aristocrat: once you have housing and food taken care of you need to start by finding a place that will hire you while training yourself in basic skills
[1:33 AM] Aristocrat: most likely you have a local library, go there
[1:34 AM] Aristocrat: ask locals for help
[1:34 AM] Aristocrat: People exist, most of them wouldn't help you, but asking costs nothing and potentially gives you opportunities
[1:34 AM] Sailol: Sounds good enough
[1:35 AM] PhoenixM: http://www.pnas.org/content/106/41/17290.abstract
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
Life and death during the Great Depression
National Academy of Sciences
[1:35 AM] PhoenixM: here's the study
[1:35 AM] Sailol: I mean, I guess it depends on hiring rates in the US, but with the unemployment rate being as it is, it sound easy to get jobs
[1:35 AM] Sailol: It's not particularly high, the unemployment rate, at least compared to the global average
[1:35 AM] Aristocrat: My theory for success is that it's primarily based on four major attributes
- Recognition of your own capabilities
- Commitment to your goals
- Effective networking with other members of society
- Attractiveness
[1:36 AM] Aristocrat: You can't do anything about the last one and the first three are correlated strongly with intelligence
[1:36 AM] Aristocrat: so it's unfortunately going to be a problem with the genetic lottery
[1:36 AM] Aristocrat: It's disingenuous to say anyone can be a millionaire
[1:36 AM] Sailol: ofc
[1:36 AM] Aristocrat: but the baseline (enough income to raise a family) is low enough that the vast majority of the population
[1:37 AM] Aristocrat: should have no problems reaching it
[1:37 AM] PhoenixM: oh whew Aristo check this one out
[1:37 AM] PhoenixM: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CT-A_GcWEAAZnao.jpg

[1:37 AM] PhoenixM: mfw
[1:37 AM] Aristocrat: Children and it only went down by 6%
[1:37 AM] Aristocrat: lol
[1:37 AM] Sailol: Also, how many jobs are decent jobs?
[1:38 AM] Aristocrat: Define "decent job"
[1:38 AM] Sailol: Let's start with that
[1:38 AM] Aristocrat: I take any "decent job" to mean "job which poses low occupational risk" which most jobs would qualify under
[1:38 AM] Sailol: enough to pay for rent, food, and save a little. for one person, as we are talking 24yo
[1:38 AM] Sailol: and in our current society, that means, probably not married
[1:39 AM] Sailol: probably not taking care of anyone but himself
[1:39 AM] Sailol: I also think that "decent job" should be defined acording to the ability to make enough money to save some of it to invest in other prospects later
[1:39 AM] Sailol: not the low occupational risk
[1:40 AM] Sailol: I would consider a job in an offshore rig a great job
[1:40 AM] Sailol: despite it being highly dangerous
[1:40 AM] Aristocrat: Most jobs would allow for that if you factor in "single", "no children", "no debts"
[1:40 AM] PhoenixM: this can vary wildly with location as well
[1:40 AM] Sailol: No debts is a hard one these days
[1:40 AM] Sailol: ofc
[1:40 AM] Aristocrat: College students who graduate with massive student loans I have zero sympathy for
[1:40 AM] Sailol: It should vary with location
[1:40 AM] Aristocrat: If you end up with six-figure debt AND are unemployed you did something very wrong
[1:41 AM] Sailol: I mean, can you? they were sold that idea all their lives
[1:41 AM] Sailol: You might end up employed but with massive debt still
[1:41 AM] Sailol: The idea of college being "the next step"
[1:41 AM] PhoenixM: would be interesting to find the data on that
[1:41 AM] Aristocrat: College is not expensive
[1:41 AM] Sailol: and it being a place to "find yourself"
[1:41 AM] Aristocrat: Private college is
[1:41 AM] PhoenixM: I didn't have that experience for the most part
[1:41 AM] Aristocrat: Go to your state university if you ain't got money
[1:41 AM] Aristocrat: shit's much cheaper
[1:41 AM] Aristocrat: or a community college
[1:41 AM] PhoenixM: I was pushed toward community college actually
[1:42 AM] Zim: Thats what I did
[1:42 AM] Zim:
[1:42 AM] PhoenixM: transfered to state college
[1:42 AM] Parapraxium: college was a mistake
[1:42 AM] Sailol: I'm not having it either, but that's mostly because I literally pay 20 mexican cents a year
[1:42 AM] Aristocrat: Associate's degree is adequate to guarantee employment in entry-level jobs
[1:42 AM] PhoenixM: 2 whole years done for about 1.5k a semester(edited)
[1:42 AM] Sailol: Public college is a bliss
[1:42 AM] Aristocrat: because it tells employers "hey this dude went to college and showed up for 2 years"
[1:42 AM] Aristocrat: "he'll probably show up to work too"
[1:42 AM] Aristocrat: your major literally does not matter
[1:42 AM] Zim: what about bachelor
[1:42 AM] Aristocrat: Pretty much the same
[1:43 AM] Aristocrat: May give you preferential priority for work in related field
[1:43 AM] Zim: work experience would do about the same though if its unrelated to your major
[1:43 AM] Aristocrat: but a degree is worth substantially less than equivalent years of work experience
[1:43 AM] Parapraxium: shit majors will still be shit no matter how far you take them
[1:43 AM] PhoenixM: yeah
[1:43 AM] PhoenixM: right now my college is pushing all the engineering students into co-ops
[1:44 AM] Aristocrat: Furthermore people who pay for university and just take classes are dumbfucks
[1:44 AM] Parapraxium: best case scenario you end up being a professor in which case have fun dealing with freshmen
[1:44 AM] Aristocrat: Your tuition is for the classes but going to university  means you get all of the support structure around it
[1:44 AM] PhoenixM: it's useful but I've got a grand total of 3 semesters left so it would double the time I have left in school
[1:44 AM] Sailol: That's particularly important for engineering students tbh
[1:44 AM] Zim: nah man you go probe the qts
[1:44 AM] PhoenixM: yeah, it is
[1:44 AM] Zim: see phoenix gets it
[1:44 AM] PhoenixM: work experience before degree finishes
[1:44 AM] Sailol: Lucky me, I am going to start a genetics internship next summer
[1:45 AM] Sailol: or at least I plan on it
[1:45 AM] Aristocrat: At the very least it's not necessary to have work experience
[1:45 AM] Parapraxium: the genetic of mindless soku players
[1:45 AM] Sailol: math is bliss
[1:45 AM] PhoenixM: I'm looking for undergrad research
[1:45 AM] Sailol: no one else has the GOD major
[1:45 AM] Sailol: Yeah, this is basically it
[1:45 AM] Sailol: except not in pure math as I wished to
[1:45 AM] Aristocrat: I have no paid programming experience or relevant internships but I had a good callback rate during my job hunt
[1:45 AM] Zim: your math is defiled now sailol
[1:45 AM] Sailol: because undergrad reaserch in pure math is super fucking hard
[1:46 AM] Sailol: in the field I like, at least
[1:46 AM] Aristocrat: Obviously it helps that I have experience helping people job hunt, but that is self-taught and everyone has access to the internet and can do the same if they wanted to
[1:46 AM] Sailol: ofc if you do baby shit like graph theory you can start doing reaserch in fucking middleschool
[1:46 AM] Sailol: because it's easy as shit and you can always apply graphs to everything
[1:47 AM] Zim: aristo how does a degree in cell and molecular bio and 7 or so years of  random work experience do
[1:47 AM] Sailol: "how the shit I just took could be modeld with a a trivial tree"
[1:47 AM] Aristocrat: What's your target job
[1:47 AM] Sailol: Sailol, 3rd grade
[1:47 AM] Zim: research work or medical
[1:47 AM] Zim: Im in debate
[1:47 AM] Aristocrat: I asked for a job not a field of work
[1:47 AM] Aristocrat: Do you have an actual job in mind
[1:47 AM] PhoenixM: level of degree?
[1:48 AM] Aristocrat: Zim do you want a crash course on how to find a job
[1:48 AM] Zim: I have a job but its more so for after the bachelor
[1:48 AM] Aristocrat: Right
[1:48 AM] Aristocrat: Do you have a job in mind
[1:48 AM] Aristocrat: A real job with an actual title at a real company
[1:48 AM] Aristocrat: What's the future career prospects
[1:49 AM] Zim: Admittedly no I just would like something in my field of work
[1:49 AM] Zim: I should probably refine it
[1:49 AM] Zim: before asking
[1:49 AM] Aristocrat: You are still in uni right
[1:49 AM] PhoenixM: use your college's resources
[1:49 AM] Zim: Yes
[1:49 AM] PhoenixM:
[1:49 AM] Aristocrat: yes
[1:49 AM] Aristocrat: do what Phoenix says
[1:49 AM] Aristocrat: Your college probably has an office specifically to help students find jobs
[1:50 AM] Aristocrat: Consult that for generic advice, consult professors to hear specifics and get advice
[1:50 AM] Aristocrat: But always keep in mind there's a reason they are professors and not working that job
[1:50 AM] Aristocrat: One of the most useful resources I'd say
[1:50 AM] Aristocrat: is LinkedIn
[1:50 AM] Aristocrat: Check other college grads who have your major
[1:50 AM] Aristocrat: find out what their current job titles are
[1:51 AM] Aristocrat: that's real-world data you can work with
[1:51 AM] Zim: alrighty
[1:51 AM] Aristocrat: find alumni from your own university and network with them
[1:51 AM] Aristocrat: you do have a LinkedIn right
[1:51 AM] PhoenixM: how much longer do you have left?
[1:51 AM] Zim: Nope
[1:51 AM] Zim: I have a year or so left
[1:51 AM] Aristocrat: >no LinkedIn
[1:52 AM] Zim: I tend to stay out of social networking sites
[1:52 AM] PhoenixM: see if you can't grab an internship, ugrad research, co-op, etc
[1:52 AM] Zim: well Im doing research this semester as a part of one of my courses
[1:52 AM] PhoenixM: but definitely use your college resources to help with job search stuff
[1:52 AM] PhoenixM: it's surprisingly strong
[1:52 AM] Aristocrat: LinkedIn is the professional "social network"
[1:52 AM] Aristocrat: if you have nothing else
[1:52 AM] Aristocrat: have a linkedin
[1:53 AM] Zim: got it at least it would help in refining my goals and seeing what I can do with what I have
[1:53 AM] Aristocrat: If you don't have a LinkedIn you ain't gonna get calls back from employers
[1:53 AM] Aristocrat: When I was job hunting I noticed that most of the listings either make you fill in a LinkedIn URL
[1:54 AM] Aristocrat: or have you click "Apply with LinkedIn"
[1:54 AM] Zim: probably for the stuff that is not entry level
[1:54 AM] Aristocrat: These are entry level jobs
[1:54 AM] Zim: the hell
[1:54 AM] Aristocrat: Did you think I applied for Senior software engineer or some shit
[1:54 AM] Aristocrat: with no paid programming experience
[1:54 AM] Zim: no but I've never had someone ask for a linkedin account
[1:54 AM] Aristocrat: It's much better to have one than not have one
[1:55 AM] Aristocrat: 1. companies want an online presence partly to make sure your application is not fraudulent and partly so their software can automatically grade you
[1:55 AM] Aristocrat: 2. it's literally your resume
[1:55 AM] Aristocrat: your linkedin is your expanded form resume
[1:56 AM] Aristocrat: resumes are one page and nobody reads CVs
[1:56 AM] Aristocrat: you want this
[1:56 AM] Zim: Dont you usually want to tailor those specifically for what you're applying for
[1:56 AM] Aristocrat: Yes because resumes are one page
[1:56 AM] Aristocrat: LinkedIn is not one page
[1:56 AM] Aristocrat: you put everything there
[1:56 AM] Zim: ooh.
[1:56 AM] Aristocrat: helps SEO so when people search for your name the first thing they see is your linkedin showing all your academic and professional accomplishments
[1:57 AM] Aristocrat: and not that facebook pic of you being drunk
[1:57 AM] Aristocrat: Furthermore recruiters go through LinkedIn and cold-call people who match certain keywords
[1:57 AM] Aristocrat: 3. LinkedIn is a way for you to network with other people who can help you
[1:58 AM] Aristocrat: Literally just find people who are even vaguely connected to you (same field/same school/same location)
[1:58 AM] Aristocrat: and ask to be connected
[1:58 AM] Aristocrat: No cost big benefit
[1:58 AM] Aristocrat: they accept, you can write a short PM
[1:59 AM] Aristocrat: "hey xxxx, I see that you are xxxxxx and I'm in the same boat; I was wondering if <your questions here>"
[1:59 AM] Aristocrat: Some won't reply, that doesn't matter
[1:59 AM] Aristocrat: sometimes you'll get a real answer
[1:59 AM] Aristocrat: that's EXTREMELY valuable
[1:59 AM] Zim: Right and that'd be helpful
[1:59 AM] Aristocrat: because it's real, proven advice from people with relevant experience
[1:59 AM] Aristocrat: Not like your professors who are professors and not the job you are looking for
[2:00 AM] Aristocrat: or your university's career office workers who only are able to give generic advice and nothing specific to your field
[2:01 AM] Aristocrat: and it doesn't matter how out of reach they seem to be
[2:01 AM] Aristocrat: literally anyone
[2:01 AM] Aristocrat: add them
[2:01 AM] Aristocrat: I cold-added startup CEOs and got 4 replies back
[2:01 AM] Aristocrat: Two of them just asked me to apply to their company
[2:01 AM] Aristocrat: Two of them gave actual human responses and pointed me to some very useful places
[2:02 AM] Aristocrat: That's something I could not have gotten any other way
[2:02 AM] Aristocrat: you know how much of a nothing I was on their radar
[2:02 AM] Aristocrat: all they would see is some asian dude with a bachelor's degree wanted to add them
[2:02 AM] Aristocrat: but they replied anyway
[2:03 AM] Zim: weird
[2:03 AM] PhoenixM: I've been going to a lot of talks and seminars on that kind of stuff recently
[2:03 AM] Aristocrat: It's not weird, it's something you should do
[2:03 AM] PhoenixM: the most useless one was about grad school lol
[2:03 AM] Aristocrat: The saying "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take" is so true and so ridiculously useful
[2:03 AM] Aristocrat: that anyone who doesn't take it as seriously as possible will have a huge handicap
[2:05 AM] PhoenixM: :gun: :worried:
[2:05 AM] Aristocrat: pls
[2:05 AM] Zim: Yeah it makes sense I suppose
[2:05 AM] Zim: I need to start taking these things more seriously
[2:06 AM] Aristocrat: Anyway, my initial claim that every able poor person in the US can take a series of actions to no longer be poor is something I stand by fiercely
[2:06 AM] Aristocrat: The statistics back me up as well
[2:06 AM] Aristocrat: You want a 99% chance to end up in the middle class in the US, just do 3 things
[2:06 AM] Aristocrat: - Graduate high school
[2:06 AM] Aristocrat: - Don't do drugs or have kids out of wedlock
[2:06 AM] Aristocrat: - Hold one job for at least a year
[2:06 AM] Aristocrat: That's it
[2:07 AM] Aristocrat: that's all you have to do
[2:07 AM] Zim: now aristo what shots should I take
[2:07 AM] PhoenixM: whew
[2:07 AM] Zim: :gun: :alien:
[2:07 AM] PhoenixM: I meet all those reqs
[2:07 AM] Aristocrat: First fix your linkedin situation
[2:07 AM] Aristocrat: I mean a real job phoenix
[2:07 AM] Aristocrat: not a part time college student gig
[2:07 AM] PhoenixM: I have a real job
[2:07 AM] PhoenixM: or had
[2:07 AM] Aristocrat: k sounds good
[2:07 AM] PhoenixM: had to quit
[2:07 AM] Zim: what is a real job
[2:07 AM] Aristocrat: :thumbsup:
[2:08 AM] PhoenixM: 3 years
[2:08 AM] Aristocrat: A job where you work 40 hours a week and are paid for it(edited)
[2:08 AM] PhoenixM: did have to go part time at points for school tho
[2:08 AM] Zim: :thinkingLol: Yeah I've held a "real" job before then
[2:09 AM] Aristocrat: like I said Zim your university has a support structure
[2:09 AM] Aristocrat: you want information you can get it any time
[2:09 AM] Aristocrat: just have to ask
[2:09 AM] Aristocrat: if you don't know the right people to ask, ask who the right people are
[2:09 AM] Zim: :ok_hand:
[2:09 AM] Aristocrat: just one extra step
[2:10 AM] Aristocrat: Let's set one goal
[2:10 AM] Aristocrat: Figure out an actual job you want to work at after this year
[2:10 AM] Aristocrat: This is harder than it sounds
[2:10 AM] Zim: so a specific title
[2:10 AM] Aristocrat: but you'll figure it out
[2:10 AM] Aristocrat: A real job, at a real company, that you would be 100% satisfied with taking if they offer you
[2:11 AM] Aristocrat: Doesn't even matter if you don't meet the qualifications yet
[2:11 AM] Aristocrat: this is your "dream job"
[2:11 AM] Aristocrat: figure out what that is
[2:11 AM] Aristocrat: then figure out what you have to do to get there
[2:12 AM] Aristocrat: This process will make you have to conceptualize a lot of stuff you didn't previously think about
[2:12 AM] Aristocrat: Transforms a vague aspiration into concrete steps you can take
[2:12 AM] Aristocrat: If you have no idea where to start
[2:12 AM] Zim: that would be condusive
[2:12 AM] Aristocrat: Think about who you have to ask to get help figuring that out
[2:13 AM] Zim: I'd probably start out as a lab tech
[2:14 AM] Aristocrat: Your dream job is a lab tech?
[2:14 AM] Zim: Well, its a stepping stone
[2:14 AM] Aristocrat: But you haven't figured out your dream job yet
[2:14 AM] Aristocrat: Be goal-oriented
[2:14 AM] Aristocrat: Your current thought process is the opposite of what you should be doing
[2:14 AM] Aristocrat: you are building the road one step at a time with no idea where you're gonna go
[2:15 AM] Zim: well I'm sort of at this divide where I'm not sure if I want to commit to being a family practice medical doctor or I want to go into researching cells
[2:15 AM] Aristocrat: you should first figure out where you want to go, plan the path, then build it along the planned route
[2:15 AM] Aristocrat: How long have you had this question for
[2:15 AM] Zim: which would probably be more pathology
[2:15 AM] Zim: since I've gotten involved in my major more in depth, it started out as wanting to be a doctor
[2:15 AM] Zim: so probably about a year
[2:16 AM] Aristocrat: What have you done so far to help you make the decision
[2:16 AM] Zim: I haven't really had to answer it though since they share certain steppings stones
[2:16 AM] Aristocrat: See that's the problem
[2:16 AM] Aristocrat: You have this vague idea that you're going in the right direction
[2:16 AM] Aristocrat: but you don't know where you actually want to end up
[2:16 AM] Aristocrat: Figure that out first
[2:16 AM] Aristocrat: that's priority one
[2:16 AM] Zim: well, I'm hoping the research this semester will give me a better idea of what I actually want
[2:16 AM] Aristocrat: That's also a bad habit
[2:16 AM] Aristocrat: that's deferring hard decisions to later
[2:17 AM] Aristocrat: because "well I'm sure I'll figure it out"
[2:17 AM] Aristocrat: you got plenty of people in the field
[2:17 AM] Aristocrat: your professors probably do research
[2:17 AM] Aristocrat: ask them what made them choose this path
[2:17 AM] Aristocrat: as opposed to being doctors
[2:18 AM] Zim: its one thing to hear of the work that people have done and its another to actually do it was my mentality
[2:18 AM] Aristocrat: Sure, but nothing's stopping you from learning more about it in the meantime
[2:19 AM] Aristocrat: you got time to hang out here, so you've got time to do stuff that helps your future self not hate your present self for making a suboptimal choice
[2:19 AM] Aristocrat: Any time there's a question to which your instinctive answer is "I'm not sure"
[2:19 AM] Sailol: Some job prospects are more complex to chose from than others though
[2:19 AM] Sailol: Particularly reaserch
[2:19 AM] Aristocrat: you should find out more about it
[2:20 AM] Sailol: I mean, Zim, I'm in the same boat as you
[2:20 AM] Zim: This has value too
[2:20 AM] Zim: but I know what you're saying I have been putting it off the talk helps me a bit aristo
[2:20 AM] Sailol: I'm also a college student that is studying in a field that has potential reaserch options heavily marketed towards
[2:20 AM] Zim: thank you
[2:20 AM] Aristocrat: The research thing is also addressed by asking people
[2:20 AM] Sailol: But then it becomes
[2:21 AM] Aristocrat: or you could look for yourself
[2:21 AM] Sailol: which area of reaserch you want to undertake
[2:21 AM] Aristocrat: For instance if I wanted to see what CS fields are the most lucrative
[2:21 AM] Zim: I want to make gibbingtons
[2:21 AM] Aristocrat: I go and find out what the latest publications are
[2:21 AM] Sailol: IRL gibbintons
[2:21 AM] Aristocrat: I then look to see how much commercial value it has
[2:21 AM] Zim: :mikuSmug:
[2:21 AM] Sailol: topus kekus
[2:21 AM] Sailol: Nah man, follow Aristo's adivce
[2:21 AM] Aristocrat: it takes a bit more work than just asking people
[2:21 AM] Aristocrat: but it's different information
[2:22 AM] Aristocrat: it gives you the big picture
[2:22 AM] Aristocrat: what fields are the most promising
[2:22 AM] Aristocrat: how much competition you have
[2:22 AM] Sailol: I'm just saying, reaserch is such a massive field, that personally I think that saying "I want to do reaserch" is the same as saying "I want a job of some kind"
[2:22 AM] Sailol: Even in a specific area
[2:22 AM] Zim: it would probably be pathology related
[2:22 AM] Zim: if I were to research
[2:22 AM] Sailol: But then, what kind of pathologies
[2:23 AM] Aristocrat: Yes, that's why you gotta do the research I outlined above
[2:23 AM] Aristocrat: this is analogous to finding out what kind of job you want, where you can find work, how much it pays, whether it's stable or not
[2:23 AM] Aristocrat: etc.
[2:23 AM] Sailol: epidemiology of a certain pathology, structure of whatever pathogen you are investigating
[2:23 AM] Sailol: what kinds of pathogens etc etc
[2:23 AM] Sailol: That's my problem right now
[2:23 AM] Aristocrat: Now I understand what I say hasn't touched on whether or not the subject personally fascinates you
[2:24 AM] Aristocrat: it's purely economic benefit and risk analysis
[2:24 AM] Aristocrat: I'm not in academia so I am not qualified to give advice on specifics of research-oriented career pathways
[2:24 AM] Zim: Im of the mentality that its important to do what you enjoy but it has to be practical and support you
[2:24 AM] Zim: so what you're talking about is important
[2:24 AM] Sailol: I am certain I want to study geometry, but then again every single fucking time I look at a space five new different geometries pop up
[2:25 AM] Sailol: I cannot decide what I even want to do my thesis on, I'm gonna go to the biggest math congress in my country in about a month to see if I can get a thesis topic there
[2:25 AM] Sailol: A prof recomended that to me
[2:25 AM] Aristocrat: I think that sounds like good advice
[2:25 AM] Aristocrat: but you should go prepared
[2:26 AM] Aristocrat: have an idea of what you are looking to get out of it
[2:26 AM] Sailol: Yeah I already chosen which talks are the one that sound the most promising
[2:26 AM] Sailol: and which talks I wouldn't understand jack shit about
[2:26 AM] Aristocrat: Good luck mate
[2:26 AM] Sailol: Thanks man
[2:27 AM] Sailol: But Zim, follow Aristo's adive tbh, I know that direction is vital, even in reaserch
[2:27 AM] Sailol: specially early on
[2:27 AM] Sailol: my friends that picked an area of study in like
[2:27 AM] Sailol: 3rd semester
[2:28 AM] Sailol: are already starting to make lists of profs and unis on where to do their masters on
[2:28 AM] Sailol: they already know what the fuck they want
[2:28 AM] Sailol: and honestly I envy that a bit, but I understand what they have that I don't and where I should work on to reach that level
[2:29 AM] Sailol: never too late, but you should talk to profs and start getting invested in a topic
[2:29 AM] Sailol: modern science is all about hyperspecialization
[2:29 AM] Aristocrat: That's the first pillar of success in my book
[2:29 AM] Aristocrat: You recognized what you know and more importantly, what you don't know
[2:29 AM] Aristocrat: and you are taking action to improve that (the second pillar of success)
[2:30 AM] Aristocrat: A lot of people do not realize it until it's too late and it sucks to be in that position
[2:31 AM] Sailol: I hope it works out
[2:31 AM] Sailol: Also
[2:31 AM] Sailol: Aristo
[2:31 AM] Sailol: what do you think about plan Bs
[2:31 AM] Zim: :NotLikeThis: I'll start asking around more
[2:32 AM] Sailol: Like, this is the first semester I have taken no classes with direct real world appliability, and it freaked me out a bit
[2:32 AM] Aristocrat: What do you mean by "plan Bs"
[2:32 AM] Sailol: ofc, this was by my own hand
[2:32 AM] Sailol: But now I am getting scared
[2:33 AM] Sailol: what If I don't become a great reasercher and need to look for other jobs, should I have gone further into appliable math?
[2:33 AM] Sailol: and I am considering taking some of those courses next semester
[2:33 AM] Aristocrat: I don't think a class with no direct real world appliability should scare you
[2:33 AM] Sailol: but then that takes away my focus
[2:34 AM] Aristocrat: There are two approaches you can take to assuage those concerns
[2:34 AM] Aristocrat: 1. Network with people who are researchers and ask for their experience
[2:34 AM] Aristocrat: See how it went for them
[2:34 AM] Aristocrat: Ask both relatively successful people and people you have never heard of
[2:35 AM] Aristocrat: You can perform the business concept of a "SWOT" analysis on your own career path
[2:35 AM] Aristocrat: Strengths
[2:35 AM] Aristocrat: Weaknesses
[2:35 AM] Aristocrat: Opportunities
[2:35 AM] Aristocrat: Threats
[2:36 AM] Aristocrat: It sounds like you have trouble with the Opportunities part
[2:36 AM] Aristocrat: and that's what you're going to hopefully find the answer to in a month
[2:36 AM] Aristocrat: 2. You can do what you actually said and diversify
[2:37 AM] Aristocrat: I think diversifying is a good thing
[2:37 AM] Aristocrat: I'm by no means a polymath but I had a whole bunch of fallback plans
[2:37 AM] Aristocrat: I initially wanted to get my Masters in CS focusing on machine learning, that's toast
[2:38 AM] Aristocrat: My backup plan of private tutelage also went poof due to the circumstances
[2:38 AM] Aristocrat: However I had fallbacks as follows
[2:40 AM] Aristocrat: - Full-stack web developer
- Entry-level code monkey
- IT consultant
- IT technician
- Software QA
- Social media outreach consultant
- Uber Driver
- Japanese/English/Chinese translator
[2:40 AM] Aristocrat: None of those are particularly desirable, but they required skillsets that did not necessitate additional investment on my part
[2:40 AM] PhoenixM: oh, missed a lot, but @Zim I'm friends with a number of pathologists
[2:41 AM] PhoenixM: as I've worked in the laboratory of a hospital for a while
[2:41 AM] PhoenixM: :eyes:
[2:41 AM] PhoenixM: I can probably get you some info
[2:41 AM] Zim: wau
[2:41 AM] Zim: that would actually be great
[2:41 AM] Aristocrat: See, gotta network
[2:41 AM] Aristocrat: But Zim
[2:42 AM] Aristocrat: you need to know what questions to ask first
[2:42 AM] Aristocrat: better prepare that
[2:42 AM] PhoenixM: yeah I'd need to know what info you want
[2:42 AM] Zim: yeah I will get back to you with some questions
[2:42 AM] Zim: thank you
[2:42 AM] Zim: right now anything i'd ask would be general
[2:43 AM] PhoenixM: to give you a quick reference they all have PhDs and have 15+ years work experience
[2:44 AM] Aristocrat: Are they people who love telling stories or people of few words
[2:44 AM] PhoenixM: depends on who you ask
[2:45 AM] Aristocrat: I would assume you're doing the asking unless they are fine with taking a call from "this internet friend of mine"
[2:45 AM] PhoenixM: the chief pathologist will chat, but not on the job
[2:45 AM] PhoenixM: the other two I'm friendly with enjoy chatting with me(edited)
[2:46 AM] Zim: wew so they're heavily involved
[2:46 AM] Zim: and have been a while
[2:46 AM] PhoenixM: if I said 'they're a friend of mine' they might drop me their email address(edited)
[2:47 AM] PhoenixM: I doubt I'd get a phone number for a stranger though
[2:47 AM] PhoenixM: :thinking:
[2:48 AM] PhoenixM: you may want to consider asking to shadow people in those positions as well (not sure if Aristo mentioned that)
[2:48 AM] Aristocrat: I haven't
[2:48 AM] Sailol: Phoenix, m8
[2:48 AM] PhoenixM: ?
[2:48 AM] Sailol: how do you get to know 15+ years of work experience pathologists lol
[2:49 AM] Sailol: Are they profs you once had or something
[2:49 AM] PhoenixM: I worked in the same areas
[2:49 AM] PhoenixM: I went to high school with one's daughter
[2:50 AM] PhoenixM: (it also helps that I'm the manager's son)
[2:50 AM] Aristocrat: I used to have some weird-ass connections too
[2:50 AM] PhoenixM: I'm under a different department though
[2:50 AM] PhoenixM: so no nepotism here
[2:50 AM] Aristocrat: You'll be surprised
[2:50 AM] Aristocrat: just how many people near you have interesting lives
[2:50 AM] Aristocrat: all you gotta do is chat up a bit
[2:51 AM] Sailol: I mostly ment that because I assumed you were in the same age range as myself, which might have been wrong
[2:51 AM] Sailol: I mean
[2:51 AM] PhoenixM: I'm 24
[2:51 AM] Sailol: Wew
[2:52 AM] PhoenixM: our shifts would cross when they're about to go home and I'm just getting there
[2:52 AM] PhoenixM: so they generally have free time to talk with me
[2:52 AM] PhoenixM: before my actual work starts
[2:52 AM] Sailol: Yeah, only person 2 people I know well with PhD's in very specialized areas with tons of experience would be my mom
[2:53 AM] Sailol: and uh, a prof I became very friendly with
[2:53 AM] Sailol: Did you work in a lab?
[2:54 AM] PhoenixM: yeah, laboratory in a hospital
[2:54 AM] Sailol: That explains a ton
[2:54 AM] Sailol: How old were you when you started working at the lab
[2:55 AM] PhoenixM: I think 20
[2:55 AM] Sailol: Welp, I'm hopeless
[2:55 AM] Aristocrat: You can hit up people too Sailol
[2:55 AM] Zim: i mean sailol I'm 24 too
[2:55 AM] PhoenixM: wasn't in school at that time when I started but went back shortly afterwards once I had funds
[2:55 AM] Sailol: I'm 21
[2:56 AM] Sailol: but my absolute lack of work experience appart of self employment
[2:56 AM] Sailol: and that was private tutoring
[2:56 AM] PhoenixM: ever volunteer?
[2:56 AM] Sailol: How?
[2:56 AM] Aristocrat: I got a lot of new contacts in just 2 hours by literally walking into my grad school's comp sci department with a stack of pizzas
[2:56 AM] PhoenixM: I've done a ton of it
[2:56 AM] Aristocrat: best $40 I ever spent
[2:57 AM] PhoenixM: mostly through volunteering for marathons/5Ks/charity races
[2:57 AM] PhoenixM: set up, equipment management
[2:57 AM] Sailol: Ah, well
[2:57 AM] PhoenixM: even handing out water mid race
[2:57 AM] Sailol: we are talking different areas here
[2:57 AM] Sailol: And I see what you are talking about
[2:57 AM] Sailol: Well
[2:57 AM] Aristocrat: The important thing isn't the field you work in Sailol
[2:57 AM] Aristocrat: It's about being places
[2:58 AM] Sailol: I did volunteer once when I was very young
[2:58 AM] Sailol: at an alphabetization program
[2:58 AM] Sailol: for native indians
[2:58 AM] Sailol: not very young
[2:58 AM] Sailol: 16
[2:58 AM] Sailol: and it was summer
[2:58 AM] PhoenixM: still counts
[2:59 AM] Sailol: I mean, I feel I didn't get much from that experience
[2:59 AM] Sailol: except maybe an interest for linguistics but not too many good contacts
[2:59 AM] Aristocrat: But while you were there your main focus was probably doing your job
[2:59 AM] Sailol: and that work experience sounds useless to be quite honest
[2:59 AM] Sailol: yeah
[2:59 AM] Aristocrat: rather than making sure you met people and made sure they remembered who you were
[3:00 AM] Sailol: I volunteered because I belived in the project
[3:00 AM] Sailol: I wanted to help the people there, not myself
[3:00 AM] Sailol: tbh
[3:00 AM] Aristocrat: you can do both
[3:00 AM] Sailol: and at those times I wasn't thinking about getting a job at all
[3:00 AM] Aristocrat: You can see it as an opportunity to meet people who also share your belief in the project
[3:00 AM] Aristocrat: which is how most events are
[3:00 AM] Tsukino: Wew
[3:01 AM] Aristocrat: people who share something congregate
[3:01 AM] Tsukino: Aristojew
[3:01 AM] Aristocrat: I wish I were Jewish tbh
[3:01 AM] Tsukino: Lol
[3:01 AM] Aristocrat: then maybe my IQ would be higher by a few points
[3:01 AM] Tsukino: Aren't you chink though
[3:01 AM] Aristocrat: plus Jews don't have the Asian debuff for scholarships
[3:01 AM] Tsukino: I remember i read that
[3:01 AM] Tsukino: Debuffs?
[3:01 AM] PhoenixM: reverse affirmative action
[3:02 AM] PhoenixM: :scream:
[3:02 AM] Aristocrat: "We want diversity, but not the Asian kind of diversity"
[3:02 AM] Sailol: Jews are just nepotistic pricks
[3:02 AM] Aristocrat: Nepotism is also a resource
[3:03 AM] Aristocrat: Unethical maybe
[3:03 AM] Sailol: They are also massivly overrepresented but they will ignore it
[3:03 AM] Aristocrat: but if your ethical values coincide with "the ends justify the means"
[3:03 AM] Aristocrat: then...
[3:03 AM] Sailol: Yeah, that is mostly why I want to steer the fuck away from my parents fields
[3:03 AM] Aristocrat: Jews are actually WAY too overrepresented
[3:03 AM] Aristocrat: you know how a lot of elite universities are x% white
[3:03 AM] Aristocrat: some places especially Harvard
[3:03 AM] Aristocrat: a solid half of that x% are Jews
[3:04 AM] Sailol: Honestly, I think nepotism ruined my country, Im not gonna do that
[3:04 AM] Sailol: And yeah
[3:04 AM] Sailol: Fucking jews
[3:04 AM] Sailol: Genocide when?
[3:04 AM] Sailol: (jk)
[3:04 AM] Aristocrat: To be honest I think nepotism is not necessarily bad
[3:05 AM] Aristocrat: The problem assumes that you'll get a pass over a more qualified candidate
[3:05 AM] Aristocrat: but it's not necessarily the case
[3:05 AM] Aristocrat: if nepotism exists you cannot assume other people won't also take advantage of it
[3:05 AM] Aristocrat: so if you are actually the most qualified candidate
[3:05 AM] Aristocrat: and you try to do it the "right" way while some shitter got a reference
[3:06 AM] Aristocrat: you just fucked both yourself and society over
[3:06 AM] Aristocrat: If you truly believe yourself to be the best then you should be ethically justified to use whatever means possible to obtain that position
[3:07 AM] Aristocrat: Plus, there's always a genetic component to your skills and interests
[3:07 AM] Sailol: I think that principle is sometimes more important than the result of one case
[3:07 AM] Sailol: Perhaps, but it also varies by a shit ton
[3:07 AM] Sailol: Specially considering this hyperspesialization of today
[3:08 AM] Sailol: Also, lots of geniouses leave useless sons
[3:08 AM] Sailol: I mean
[3:08 AM] Aristocrat: Honestly there's a reason why individuals with sociopathic tendencies can often be highly successful
[3:08 AM] Sailol: Fucking Gauss had like 9
[3:08 AM] Sailol: None of them were mathematians
[3:08 AM] Aristocrat: They choose the practical maximization of self-benefit
[3:08 AM] Aristocrat: and can sleep at night while doing unethical things
[3:08 AM] Sailol: Yeah
[3:09 AM] Sailol: Disgusting tbh
[3:09 AM] Aristocrat: but it happens
[3:09 AM] Aristocrat: The way I see it, if I can beat one of them out of ill-earned success using their own medicine
[3:10 AM] Aristocrat: I'm ethically justified
[3:10 AM] Sailol: The way I see it, you became your own enemy
[3:10 AM] Aristocrat: I could always rationalize that my success benefits society more than their success
[3:11 AM] Aristocrat: Because hell, if I don't believe that I'll be the best person for the job, why the fuck am I applying there
[3:11 AM] Aristocrat: it's like that Australian heart surgeon
[3:11 AM] Aristocrat: A patient asked him if he was the best
[3:11 AM] Aristocrat: he told the patient "If I thought I weren't the best, I would refer you to the person who was."
[3:12 AM] Sailol: Wew
[3:12 AM] Aristocrat: You gotta believe in yourself
[3:12 AM] Aristocrat: If you keep second-guessing everything you do you aren't going anywhere
[3:12 AM] Sailol: Yeah, but you don't always have to belive yourself to be the best
[3:12 AM] Sailol: Humility is a virtue
[3:12 AM] Sailol: In medicine that is different
[3:13 AM] Sailol: Because well
[3:13 AM] Aristocrat: Obviously, be realistic, but you shouldn't let negativity outweigh the positives you see in yourself
[3:13 AM] Sailol: Playing with a life under the knife there
[3:13 AM] Aristocrat: There are two kinds of people
[3:13 AM] Aristocrat: Some say "I'm not good at this"
[3:13 AM] Aristocrat: The rest ask "How can I be better at this"
[3:14 AM] PhoenixM: some are both
[3:14 AM] Aristocrat: You can of course eventually arrive at the conclusion that you have little room for growth there
[3:14 AM] PhoenixM: [!!?]
[3:14 AM] Aristocrat: The important thing is which one you say first
[3:14 AM] Aristocrat: A lot of people assume failure
[3:14 AM] Aristocrat: they don't evaluate the situation fully
[3:17 AM] Sailol: See your point, however
[3:18 AM] Sailol: Precisly this self understanding
[3:18 AM] Sailol: if one is not to be completly egoist
[3:18 AM] Sailol: can lead one to doubt their self-ability if they are aided to the top by connections not product of their own skill
[3:19 AM] Sailol: if you do not have the absolute reliability that you get there because you are
[3:19 AM] Sailol: and you are not a sociopath
[3:19 AM] Sailol: why should you belive that you are the best?
[3:19 AM] Sailol: you haven't proven it, as far as I know
[3:19 AM] Zim: fake it till you make it
[3:19 AM] Zim: :Thrugging:
[3:19 AM] Sailol: on the other hand if you get there on your own merit, you are da best
[3:19 AM] Sailol: da bomb
[3:19 AM] Sailol: anyways sleep time
[3:19 AM] Sailol: nice convo
[3:20 AM] Sailol: thank you guys
[11:45 AM] Parapraxium: "i'm not good at this" is my outlook on soku
[1:19 PM] SpikeSpiegel: wow, this morning was aristocrat-help-desk