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Massive debate on religion happened on facebook the other day

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  1. Cristina: I would rather live my life as if there is a God , and die to find out there isn't , than live my life as if there isn't , and die to find out there is !! Thanks Mark !!
  2. Yesterday at 11:33 · Comment · Like
  3. 3 people like this.
  4.  
  5. dylan: this is called pascal's wager, and it's fundamentally flawed.
  6.  
  7. Since there have been many religions throughout history, and therefore many potential gods, some assert that all of them need to be factored into the wager, in an argument known as the argument from inconsistent revelations. This would lead to a high probability of believing in the wrong god, which destroys the mathematical advantage Pascal claimed with his Wager. Denis Diderot, a contemporary of Voltaire, concisely expressed this opinion when asked about the wager, saying "an Imam could reason the same way". J. L. Mackie notes that "the church within which alone salvation is to be found is not necessarily the Church of Rome, but perhaps that of the Anabaptists or the Mormons or the Muslim Sunnis or the worshipers of Kali or of Odin."
  8. Yesterday at 12:11 ·
  9.  
  10. dylan: Suppose there is a God who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both. They will also be less likely ever to discover and commit to true beliefs about right and wrong. That is, if they have a significant and trustworthy concern for doing right and avoiding wrong, it follows necessarily that they must have a significant and trustworthy concern for knowing right and wrong. Since this knowledge requires knowledge about many fundamental facts of the universe (such as whether there is a god), it follows necessarily that such people must have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about such things are probably correct. Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless god wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy.
  11.  
  12. -Richard Carrier
  13. Yesterday at 12:13 ·
  14.  
  15. dylan: And finally:
  16.  
  17. Richard Dawkins argues for an "anti-Pascal wager" in his book, The God Delusion. "Suppose we grant that there is indeed some small chance that God exists. Nevertheless, it could be said that you will lead a better, fuller life if you bet on his not existing, than if you bet on his existing and therefore squander your precious time on worshipping him, sacrificing to him, fighting and dying for him, etc."
  18. Yesterday at 12:13 ·
  19.  
  20. dylan: AND MY COMMENT IS THIS:
  21.  
  22. THIS ASSUMES THAT ONE CAN ASSUME THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE.
  23.  
  24. Suppose you were born on an island and your parents died, and you were left on the island alone, and somehow survived into adulthood, lived a good life, and died. You would never know of god, therefore you never get into heaven.
  25.  
  26. Do you see where I'm going with this?
  27.  
  28. If god still lets this person into heaven for being completely ignorant, then that assumes that other people who believed in other gods and never knew of the Christan faith are ALSO going to heaven since god rewards ignorance! If this is true, then pascal's wager is completely broken and your statement has no meaning.
  29. Yesterday at 12:16 ·
  30.  
  31. dylan: You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.
  32. Yesterday at 12:31 ·
  33.  
  34. Beau:  2:16 (King James Version)
  35.  
  36. 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
  37. 9 hours ago
  38.  
  39. dylan: That doesn't apply at all. This isn't law, it's logic.
  40. 9 hours ago ·
  41.  
  42. dylan: Also, I feel a lot better about doing charitable acts, being altruistic and helpful and selfless because I believe it's good for humanity, NOT because I believe there's a God watching me to score points for.
  43. 9 hours ago ·
  44.  
  45. Beau Banks I serve because i am commanded to not because im trying to score point.
  46.  
  47. John 13 (New International Version)
  48.  
  49. 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
  50. -Jesus Christ
  51. 9 hours ago
  52.  
  53. dylan: Who told you to? Your parents? Your Preacher? How does he know? The bible was written by men. The church has cut you in order to sell you a band aid. Just because an old book says so doesn't make it true. There's a lot of books, much older then yours. (and much less edited too!)
  54. 9 hours ago ·
  55.  
  56. dylan: Also, if all you're going to do is quote from the bible and say that you're commanded to, you've removed yourself from the discussion. Think for yourself! Why do YOU believe it? It sounds like you have Stockholm syndrome.
  57. 8 hours ago ·
  58.  
  59. Ellen:  If you don't believe then why are you trying so hard to disprove?
  60. 8 hours ago
  61.  
  62. dylan: Pascal's wager bothers me. It's a silly reason to believe.
  63. 8 hours ago ·
  64.  
  65. dylan: (and I debate theism as a hobby.)
  66. 8 hours ago ·
  67.  
  68. Ellen:  I agree about Pascal's wager - why take the risk? Believe in God, just in case? Considering all the "gods" people worship, the odds are not in any one person's favour, when settling for Pascal's wager. Either there is a God or there is not. Many people do believe there is a god but who is right? Which god is real? Is there a heaven or a hell? Setting aside the bible and what it says, since you seem to disbelieve it and therefore eliminates the point of quoting scripture to you, I believe that God does exist and that he is very real and alive, not because someone told me to believe but because I have experienced his love for myself. Looking around at our world and all the minute details that it takes for this world to survive, convinces me that there must be a God! So many tiny miracles if we just take the time to look around. Many religions out there are actually intertwined with culture and you are "born" into that religion, such as Hinduism. As far as I know (and I may not be correct here), one cannot even "convert" to Hinduism. In that case, how is this fair to all humanity? Christianity is not based upon any specific culture or society. One is not "born" into Christianity. It is a choice that an individual must make for themselves. In fact, Christianity should not be a title, it should be a lifestyle.
  69. 8 hours ago
  70.  
  71. dylan: Um, all the tiny miracles you talk about are completely explained via science and abiogenisis. Matter flows from place and does not require a god to create life. You don't "Believe" in evolution. Either you understand it, or you don't. Do you "Believe" in gravity? Do you "Believe" in friction? Come on. Also, Children are baptized, confirmed, have first confession, and are brought up being told that they will go to hell if they are bad. That is NOT a choice. The brains of children are conditioned to believe everything their parents say unwaveringly, with all their hearts as a mechanism for survival. That is not a choice.
  72. 7 hours ago ·
  73.  
  74. Cristina:  I have yet to respond but let me get this straight, you think that all the thousands of species of animals, bugs, plants trees, etc.......came from matter ???? Why then do animals reproduce by having sex or in rare cases are able to reproduce on their own and why do we plant seeds to get plants, trees, flowers, etc..??? Why aren't they just popping up from the flowing matter you speak of ?? Also my children (I have 4) have not been baptized, had communion, been confirmed or had confession by sitting in front of a man and sharing all their mistakes. I have never nor will I ever tell my children that they will go to hell. They will be baptized when they are able to make that choice for themselves, not because I forced them into it. I do understand evolution but I don't believe it, that's my choice just like it's your not to believe in God.
  75. 7 hours ago
  76.  
  77. Donna:  For someone who doesn't believe in a God you certainly are trying terribly hard to prove he does not exist...even if it is a hobby...i get a kick out of Athiests...you certainly have to work harder than we do - all your trying prove we are wrong for believing...seems like you put alot of effort into something you don't think exists!
  78. 5 hours ago
  79.  
  80. dylan: Christina - umm, yes. It takes 4 billion years for atoms to turn into self replicating life forms and all this is very much explained in a gradeschool and highschool biology. Please look up Abiogenisis. Animals have sex because it's an evolutionary process facilitating the spread of dna. You can trace it all the way back to single celled organisms, and then you can trace it back to DNA, and RNA... all from INERT, NON-LIVING CHEMICALS, CREATED NATURALLY, from the explosions of stars and gravity. Again, Nobody BELIEVES in evolution. Either you understand it, or you don't.
  81.  
  82. Oh, and we work harder because we believe in KNOWLEDGE AND SCIENCE.
  83.  
  84. "GOD DUN IT" is lazy.
  85. 5 hours ago ·
  86.  
  87. Sandy (IS AWSOME):  we argue because no one cares to ever think about it, many just go about their lives believing in what their parents taught them and this continues on through generations. I like your points Dylan and I have read Dawkins, as well as Harris and a few others. Knowledge is powerful, keep up the debate.
  88. 5 hours ago
  89.  
  90. dylan: Thank you sandy.
  91. 5 hours ago ·
  92.  
  93. Donna:  Not that I engage in these debates often...lets not forget that at some point you were all taught the information you now count as your gospel truth...you are no different than what you are accusing a believer in being...you were told by some teacher who with their limited knowlegde of the subject told you what to believe..gave you someones facts and now you choose them as your belief system..you know full well that any "theory" can be challenged by another..if I believe what my parents taught me and you believe what a teacher taught you...what is the difference...each one of us was "created" to believe in something passionately...as you are proving here...i wonder how science gave all humans that ability!
  94. 5 hours ago
  95.  
  96. dylan: the idea that "trees pop up" out of nowhere is insane, but to answer your question, ALL STAGES of evolution exist right now. Technically, tress ARE popping up out of nowhere, but you won't notice for another 4 billion years. Basically, RNA based Viruses are some of the lowest life forms out there. Those get coated with a membrane made up of non-living chemicals due to simple chemical attraction. The same reason why glue is sticky, or dirt absorbs water.Those coatings, become cell walls. They protect the RNA chain (which is just a few simple chemicals that stick to each other too!) as it floats around the earth, either in water, in the air, or later... in animals like us. Those started to bunch up, because similar chains of chemicals are stronger against things that break them up (think sticks in a bundle) Now you have multicellular. I could go on, but this video explains it better:
  97.  
  98. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg1fs6vp9Ok
  99.  
  100. The history of the universe made easy. I've listened to Christians all my life - if you won't take the time to watch this, your right to argue is taken away.
  101. 5 hours ago ·
  102.  
  103. Donna:  My right to argue or debate is never taken away..that is just silly...
  104. 5 hours ago
  105.  
  106. dylan: DONNA: NO. THAT IS A FALLACY. WE DON'T "BELIEVE" WE KNOW. HYPOTHESES CAN BE TESTED. THEORIES Have been tested, and have been PROVEN through vigorous testing by other people, all over the world. It's called DOUBLE BLIND TESTING.
  107.  
  108. Evolution has been tested. It's been proven. There is no better explanation for life. We can make predictions based on what we know about DNA and evolution. For example, evolution says that some form of transitional species should have existed in a particular place at a particular time according to projections based on what we know about speciation. AND GUESS WHAT? We've done it. We've dug into the ground and found a species that was between two species that DNA says are related. We've done it with countless animals, AND HUMANS.
  109. 5 hours ago ·
  110.  
  111. dylan: we know where to dig because evolution tells us where to dig!
  112.  
  113. Also don't give me the "why are there still monkeys?" argument because evolution is a tree, not a straight line. If a species does really well in it's environment, there is no pressure on the dna to find beneficial mutations. All this takes millions of years.
  114. 4 hours ago ·
  115.  
  116. dylan: Anyway, sorry to put a heated debate all over your page, but I saw an opportunity to flex my brain and I took it. I hope some of you learned something today.
  117.  
  118. (oh and donna, I didn't say your right to argue was taken away, but you've taken yourself off the table if you can't accept or read other information, as you expect us to do, with the bible)
  119. 4 hours ago ·
  120.  
  121. Donna:  Dylan, you do an excellent job regergitating a whole bunch of other peoples theories...i however have actually lived the truth that is found in the bible..have witnessed the miracles and seen them in my own life...when you have actually tested out all your head knowledge and have proven for yourself all the things that you have been taught then we can talk..until then they remain just theory to you...i do however encourage you to examine why you are so angry with the God that you are trying so hard to not believe in...i believe in that you will find the answer...
  122.  
  123. Christina...I apologize for engaging in this lengthy debate on your wall....forgive me if I have overstepped!!
  124. 4 hours ago
  125.  
  126. Cristina:  I don't mind debates but just be sure to remember that we are ALL entitled to our opinions and beliefs, no one can take that away from any of us. For the record, I have not learned anything today. I believe in God and nothing you or anyone else can say will ever change that. I have seen countless videos on evolution over the years and they mean nothing to me, not even back in grade school. BTW that wasn't nice, were not idiots just because we don't believe what you choose to believe.
  127. 4 hours ago
  128.  
  129. Rene:  You guys are funny, the short version is that God exists and so does evolution, everyone on earth came from one woman that lived in Africa 200,000 years ago, all other women's children, and other humans died. The Bible speaks to all ages, in our age Adam and Eve was Gods way to explain we are all family. Dylan I encourage you to keep searching for the truth, but it won't be found in your head, even if all the logic was given to you, the truth is in your heart, if it's not their, your not meant to find it, but God knows this, that some can't see, so he rewards the looking, I encourage you to learn to swim from the deep end
  130. 4 hours ago
  131.  
  132. Dom (rational thiest?): I wonder if the God of Evolution is named 'Evolvus' and if he he's maybe kinda like a transformer? that'd be pretty cool. ;)
  133. 4 hours ago
  134.  
  135. Dom (rational thiest?): I was hoping to engage somewhere in here, but i wasnt sure if this had left the original premise of the wager and is now about something else, if it is, i can't really tell what it is.
  136.  
  137. I must be honest, i favor engagement with atheists or evolutionists over many christians, at least in these sorts of discussions, not that i'm referring to anyone in this thread, but i can sympathize with atheists on how purposefully ignorant many theists choose to be and remain.
  138.  
  139. there really isn't any short end to this discussion, I personally think differently regarding your island example Dylan, what originally inspired me to search after a higher power, God, or creator, author etc was looking at the grandeur of the sky and the stars and the diversity of life. I think it would be incorrect to suggest there could only be one outcome to such a scenario. Obviously the details leading to belief in a God are with or without exclusion.
  140. 4 hours ago
  141.  
  142. Cristina:  Donna, you have not overstepped and there is no need to apologize :)
  143. 4 hours ago
  144.  
  145. Dom (rational thiest?): I'll also defend the character of the God of the scriptures, his examples through his prophets he has made clear that he esteems and values knowledge, wisdom and understanding as highly as life itself. The reader is frequently reminded and encouraged by things like, 'my people perish by a lack of knowledge'. 'seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened, ask and it will be given', in all your getting, get wisdom and so many more.
  146.  
  147. One of the main reasons i respect and admire the scriptures is there is a great portion of it that are compilations of writings from some exceptionally wise men of history, who's valuable repose adjure the hearer to the best example of life at its fullest.
  148. 4 hours ago
  149.  
  150. Dom (rational thiest?): one of my fav's,
  151. Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to hide things but the glory of kings to investigate them.
  152. 4 hours ago
  153.  
  154. Dom (rational thiest?): which, by the way Dylan, you could consider that a compliment :)
  155. 4 hours ago
  156.  
  157. Ellen:  Disclaimer: This is not Ellen, but Ellen's annoyed husband Gord. Why am I annoyed? I have to spend the greater part of my evening reading all this and now I cant just walk away. So I have to cultivate an answer that will take some time that I'd rather spend doing something else.
  158.  
  159. Alright Dylan, sicnce you're the smartest person in the room, maybe you should have known that a letter of that tone should have been sent to Cristina in a message form, cuz it was kinda preachy and personal.This really wasnt the right venue.
  160.  
  161. 1: Pascals Wager. You cant possibly take every single belief system into account and give it a valid vote when some have absolutely crazy claims. Hindus believe that the world is suspended on the back of a giant elephant in space. Honestly. You cant give them a vote. A Muslim once told me that it was "...OK..." that I have 2 girls and no boys. Gee, thanks a lot. My wife told him that it's actually the man that determines the sex of the baby and he told us, "I have heard that there is an X and a Y, but I dont believe it". Some beliefs deserve a good look and some dont.
  162.  
  163. 2: Only morally good go to heaven? Thats to bad, because then we'd all go to Hell. There is not one morally good person except Jesus. How do we even judge what is moral anyway without a standard? Man is at his core, evil. Richard Carrier thinks that the only truely moral people are going to Heaven are the ones that search their whole life taking in any and all claims of truth, religion, testing each one for validity and are the only ones truely worthy of a place in heaven? What??? Wouldn't you get to the end of the road sometime? It shouldn't take a whole lifetime. "Ok, Hindu's your turn... you think the world is spinning on the back of a giant elephant, eh? Ok, next!!!"
  164.  
  165. 3: Caritable Acts. You think you should just make the world a better place for being here, doing good, and hope to be remember fondly? Why? What difference would it make if I helped the old lady across the street or blew her brains out if there is no God and no punishment/reward, if we're all just goo anyways?
  166. 2 hours ago
  167.  
  168. dylan: Donna, do you know the difference between a theory and a hypothesis? "Just a theory" is the most ignorant thing anyone can say. SCIENTIFIC theory can be backed up with EVIDENCE. Give me evidence of god that is measurable and empirical, and I'll believe in it. Secondly, a lot of the things I've said in this thread are my own ideas, not anyone else's. One of my favorite sayings is that "the act of innovation is forgetting where you plagiarized it" Once something becomes so very understood, it can be explained without using the original text.
  169.  
  170. Cristina, by plugging your ears and shouting "na na na na not listening" You have removed yourself from the debate. If your god stood up to scrutiny you wouldn't have to do that.
  171.  
  172. Dominic, you're the kind of theist I don't mind debating, however, I see many errors in your thinking. The beauty of nature is that it can be explained in mathematics and biology, you just need to read a little more. You want to defend the "character of god of the scriptures?"
  173.  
  174. okay: "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” -Dawkins.
  175.  
  176. And don't you dare say Jesus came to change all that, because it almost seems as though Jesus was anticipating 20th century biblical criticism when he authenticated these accounts. The conclusion is simple. If a person believes in Jesus Christ, he should be consistent and believe that the Old Testament and its accounts are correct. Many want to accept Jesus, but also want to reject a large portion of the Old Testament. This option is not available. Either Jesus knew what he was talking about or he did not. The evidence is clear that Jesus saw the Old Testament as being God's Word; His attitude toward it was nothing less than total trust. He confirmed many of the accounts in the Old Testament, such as the destruction of Sodom and the death of Lot's wife (Luke 17:29, 32), the murder of Abel by his brother Cain (Luke 11:51), the calling of Moses (Mark 12:26), the manna given in the wilderness (John 6:31-51), the judgment upon Tyre and Sidon (Matthew 1-1:21), and many others.
  177.  
  178. Soooo. Your move.
  179. 2 hours ago ·
  180.  
  181. dylan: Word of advice: my aunts were/are nuns and teach sunday school, my mom is Roman Catholic and a member of her choir at church and releases religious musical CDs, and I was raised catholic and rejected the god hypthosis around the age of 13, and found out about the humanist movement about a decade ago. I've also read most of the bible.
  182. 2 hours ago ·
  183.  
  184. dylan: ironically, it was my quest to rekindle my relationship with god that lead me to disbelieve even stronger. It was Christian texts which lead me to the path I'm now on.
  185. 2 hours ago ·
  186.  
  187. Ellen:  4: I actually believe that most people will end up going to Hell. The bible says that narrow is the road that leads to life and few are them who find it. Wide is the road that leads to destruction and many are those who travel it. You have to "find" the narrow road. You ever travel a highway, and see people driving a small road alongside the highway beside you? Thats like life. Most people take the highway, but that leads to Hell, that little dirt road will take you to where you want to go.
  188.  
  189. 3:Back to Charitable Acts. What do you say about all those charitable acts you do? I'll tell you. He will count every little old lady you helped, every child you fed and time you said "aww" at the little sick animals, and every time you shook your fist at an oil company, and every time you cut your neighbors grass. You know He calls that? Evil Deeds. Why? Because those are the things we do that make us think we don't need Him.
  190.  
  191. 5:Conditioned Brains. It sounds to me like your brain has been conditioned, it's just that evolutionists got there first. For as loud as you preach your beliefs at poor Cristina's tiny wall post, you yourself have sat at the feet of those who claim to "know" and swallowed everything that they've fed you. Think Im wrong? I listened to your video. And it's all about stars and helium and measuring. So what? "OhmyGOD!!! We figured out that stars are made of Helium, there is no God!!!"
  192.  
  193. 6:Who is man that we think we are so smart that we can figure out everything about the human body, the planet around us, the galaxy around our planet, our universe...
  194. Your video says "we make calculations, and observations, and measurements..." and so we know now that God is not real? Because we can measure light? Congratulations Humans!!! Scientists are constantly changing their "theories" the earth is flat, wait a second, no, now its round. The sun revolves around the earth, no wait, earth revolves around sun, sorry everyone!!!
  195. 2 hours ago
  196.  
  197. dylan: The difference between science and religion is that science will adjust it's views based on new evidence. Religion forms it's ideas and ignores any evidence against it.
  198.  
  199. Also Ellen, you are a disgusting, reprehensible excuse for a member of the human race. To think for a moment that ANYONE deserves an eternity of suffering with no end for a list of small finite human crimes they commit on the short century that they happen to be here is the most insane unethical thing you could possibly say.
  200. Let me give you an equivalent example. Your son steals from the local grocer. You lock him in your basement and feed him enough to survive, and whip him daily until you die for the one crime he commited.
  201. Would you do that? Because that's EXACTLY what your god does. We are his children. And for doing something wrong, like not believing in him, he locks us in his basement, and tortures and murders us in the most disgusting ways imaginable.
  202.  
  203. Secondly, you didn't watch the video. You just looked at it, and said PSSH SCIENCE and turned your brain off.
  204.  
  205. By the way, you get to live TWICE AS LONG as your great great great grandparents. TWICE AS LONG. Thanks to science. Nobody lived past 50 back then. Fuck off.
  206. 2 hours ago ·
  207.  
  208. dylan: And with that, I'm completely done. It's people like that that will turn me off to a rational debate. I'll think twice before trying to talk about reality on facebook.
  209. 2 hours ago ·
  210.  
  211. Cristina:  Dylan, I really am not happy about where this has gone. Attacking people is not cool, debate all you want but don't attack people :( You seem very angry :(
  212. 2 hours ago
  213.  
  214. dylan: She literally just said most of us deserve to have our flesh ripped off and burned for longer then our time here on earth. That idea is abhorrent and disgusting.
  215. 2 hours ago ·
  216.  
  217. dylan: I'm not commenting anymore - and if you knew me in person you would realize I'm actually one of the most positive optimists on earth. One of the only things that really get my goat though, is that people like her are allowed to lead nations.
  218. 2 hours ago ·
  219.  
  220. Ellen:  7: There is no in-between human. And the tooth you're about to tell me about? The one they brought before congress to have the science books changed? Actually recently discovered to a pig.
  221.  
  222. 8: Miracles. Ok Mr. Know-it-all, I can introduce you to a person who has personally seen a 1 armed man grow an arm in front of him. Explain that. I can then take you to a man that has personally walked on water. Explain that. (whiny voice) - "But those are all OTHER people..." Ok, I've personally seen a man be thrown backwards into the air, off his feet, while being prayed for by a preacher that didn't even touch him. Hmm, seen the primordial soup lately?
  223.  
  224. 9: You think you're so intellectually superior to us cave people that believe in God? I have just spent an hour and a half crafting this response. I DARE you to spend that much time reading this.......http://books.google.ca/books?id=Wg66gWttf-cC&dq=case+for+creation+lee&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=oDUQTIC4LJ2QnwfhmIy9DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
  225.  
  226. This is a book I've read cover to cover, and if you can do that and still not believe in SOMETHING, I dont care, Aliens like Stephen Hawking, Then I dont know. I guarantee that you'll believe in something. And look, I understand that it's a real leap of faith to begin believing in something that you can "measure, calculate, see, taste, touch," but you dont have to switch off your brain. If God is real then there are real answers. And no, you dont just have to sit down and shuddup and believe 'cause mamma told you to BOY! There is plenty of room for someone like yourself with a strong muscle between his ears to fit into a relationship with a God thats real. True, many people couldn't answer tough questions in the past, but its not your daddy old time religiopn telling you that we dont ask questions like that around here, son. If it's real then theres an answer, and Im not afraid to tackle any question.
  227. Im getting tired now. If you wanna be a coward, then write a lengthy hate-filled response. If YOU want to be honest, then read what I posted. Lee Strobel was the science writer for the Chicago Tribune when his wife became a christian, so he set out on a course to disprove her beliefs and ended up becoming one of the best proponents of creationism. There is no shame in changing your view, and if you need help on where to go next, I can, and am willing to help you, buddy.
  228. 2 hours ago
  229.  
  230. Cristina:  and if you knew her or her husband you would know that they are some of the nicest people you could ever meet.
  231. 2 hours ago
  232.  
  233. Beau Banks Wow i leave for work for a few hours and i see things have become interesting, and i also see the debate is done! To bad i would of liked to way in.
  234. 2 hours ago
  235.  
  236. Dom (rational thiest?): nice one Dylan! haahahah
  237. the good thing about me, i'm seasoned enough that I dont need to react to such statements as i might have when i was younger.
  238.  
  239. i'd really like to have a further discussion perhaps elsewhere on what kinds of texts talked you out of your goal.
  240.  
  241. as for the old testament view, THANK YOU. gosh, one of the most iritating things is when an atheist comprehends the bible better than christians. i agree probably more than you even do on that topic. ;)
  242.  
  243. as for the 'negative' characteristics, gotta love that anti-God evangelist. its no secret, its not hidden and it certainly isn't untrue. again, this may or may not be the appropriate environment to have such a discussion but it does me no harm. These are valid concerns, extremely heavy weight and in my experience, some of the most difficult details to consider and that cause and hold people away from the faith.
  244. How does one rationalize a god that orders the slaughter of women and children? how does one rationalize a god that orders their slaughter even after his great commandments of 'thou shall not kill'? in that simple example not only can this god be considered a genocist, but also a hypocrite.
  245.  
  246. these are real questions, and for many hard questions, and rightly so. how does one juggle those details? can God sin? excellent questions that deserve answers and make the difference of believing or not believing for many.
  247.  
  248. I'll be totally transparent, some of those things I still have trouble with, not enough trouble to discard my faith, but enough to curiously dig and wade to find how it all works out.
  249.  
  250. Ultimately for me, my experience of his love outweighs what can be considered as negative qualities. Its the quantity and quality of his love that forces me to believe that in those seldom cases it was as if there were no other way. Obviously i'm not sharing that as a defense without drilling into the details, but moreso conversationally. I'm not afraid to ask those questions and even not know the answer. as I said, the miracles and experiences i've had of his love enable me to trust through times when the details just don't lineup or make sense. So far, each time, it ends up making sense eventually, just a matter of my short sighted perspective needing some stretching.
  251. 2 hours ago
  252.  
  253. dylan: LOLOLOLOL LEE STROBEL?! SERIOUSLY? I've read "The case for faith" It's TERRIBLE, and every single argument was a debunked rehash! Aahhahhahaha. The discovery institute is a freaking joke! On top of that, I would take the time to read the book so I can debate you, but it wouldn't matter, because even though I would crush the arguments in the book, you wouldn't listen anyway!
  254.  
  255. Also, it's been done! It was made into a film, and it's already been completely critically torn apart!
  256.  
  257. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa-1Iyphqzc&feature=PlayList&p=DE495976F8D9C1E1&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1
  258.  
  259. <- starting there. I'm not gonna waste my time when it's already been done.
  260.  
  261. To clarify: she outright rejected the very thing that is allowing her to comment, allows her children to know their grandparents, and allows her to watch television every night. She rejected the thing that corrects her vision, heals her when she's got an infection, and allows her children to be healthy and free of disease. She rejects the thing that created paved roads, houses, air conditioning, her car, and the countless things she takes for granted every day.
  262.  
  263. I don't believe aliens have ever visited earth, that's crazy! There's no real evidence to support that! Once there is, I might. There is however STRONG evidence that life is ABUNDANT in the universe.
  264.  
  265. I'm done.
  266. 2 hours ago ·
  267.  
  268. Ellen:  Man, reading that back I made a lot of mistakes (tired)
  269.  
  270. 3: should read "Charitable Acts"
  271.  
  272. 3: ...hope to be rememberED fondly...
  273.  
  274. Back to Charitable Acts... "what do you THINK GOD SAYS...
  275.  
  276. You know WHAT He calls that??? Evil Deeds.
  277.  
  278. 7:...recently discovered to BELONG to a pig.
  279.  
  280. ...leap of faith believing in something you CANT measure...
  281.  
  282. ... Not your DADDY"S old time RELIGION...
  283. about an hour ago
  284.  
  285. Dom (rational thiest?): aww dylan, stepped outta bounds dude, its really not necessary to swear, especially on someone elses wall. would you mind reposting?
  286. about an hour ago
  287.  
  288. dylan: Dom - you're right. Ignorance really pisses me off.
  289. Wait wait wait wait... one last thing:
  290.  
  291. 7: There is no in-between human. And the tooth you're about to tell me about? The one they brought before congress to have the science books changed? Actually recently discovered to a pig.
  292.  
  293. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Yes, the ONE MISTAKEN ONE WAS FOUND TO BE A PIG. TOO BAD THERE's OVER 30 OTHER FOSSILS THAT WERE NOT PIG BONES FROM THE SAME AREA.
  294. Here's your ancestors:
  295.  
  296. (A)Pan troglodytes, chimpanzee, modern
  297. (B)Australopithecus africanus, STS 5, 2.6 My
  298. (C) Australopithecus africanus, STS 71, 2.5 My
  299. (D) Homo habilis, KNM-ER 1813, 1.9 My
  300. (E) Homo habilis, OH24, 1.8 My
  301. (F) Homo rudolfensis, KNM-ER 1470, 1.8 My
  302. (G) Homo erectus, Dmanisi cranium D2700, 1.75 My
  303. (H) Homo ergaster (early H. erectus), KNM-ER 3733, 1.75 My
  304. (I) Homo heidelbergensis, "Rhodesia man," 300,000 - 125,000 y
  305. (J) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Ferrassie 1, 70,000 y
  306. (K) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Chappelle-aux-Saints, 60,000 y
  307. (L) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Le Moustier, 45,000 y
  308. (M) Homo sapiens sapiens, Cro-Magnon I, 30,000 y
  309. (N) Homo sapiens sapiens, modern
  310. about an hour ago ·
  311.  
  312. Cristina:  Yikes, do we need to swear and attack each other??? We don't have to agree guys, it's OK :) I'm feeling really bad :(
  313. about an hour ago
  314.  
  315. Cristina:  Thanks guys :)
  316. about an hour ago
  317.  
  318. dylan: http://www.talkorigins.org/ goodnight.
  319. about an hour ago ·
  320.  
  321. dylan: A small thought before I go to bed:
  322. I do see one thing that's pervasive in some of your messages - you think that I'm "following the crowd" by being a secular humanist... You're wrong. MOST PEOPLE Believe in a religion. Most people believe in a personal god. Most. Most. Most.
  323. I'm in a huge minority here. Read about the dark ages, please. It's only since religion has loosened it's grip on humanity that we have progressed.
  324. about an hour ago ·
  325.  
  326. Beau Banks Wow this is getting out of control, and clearly neither side is going to budge on their beliefs, and rightfully so because both side believe whole heartedly in what they are preaching, but also both sides have holes in their arguments! Even in your video, which i greatly enjoyed, it says at the end scientists don't have all the answers to how certain things are happening in the universe, and the Evolution has so many whole in it even scientists have a hard time believe in it.
  327.  
  328. but also......
  329.  
  330. Yes there is no formula to prove God, and only some have claimed to have seen him or touch him. Leaving the rest to have to use faith to believe, but i believe because i have seen miracles like the one Ellen spoke of with a man instantly regrowing his arm, and i believe if it came down to it and Christianity and Evolution were both banned with the penalty being death, you would see which side truly believes, there have already been millions upon millions of people who have given their live for something they can physically prove! Don't you think that counts for something?
  331.  
  332. I no i have no hard proof and clearly Dylan you are beyond my IQ but i no what i have seen and believe. No one has seen or documented a positive form of evolution, nor has anyone seen a planet suddenly spire with life, but i have seen men and women cured of cancer and tumours the size of baseballs over night with no explanation.
  333.  
  334. I'm going to bed my body is at the moment sick, and im exhausted, but im gunna say one more thing. What if your wrong (sorry for being blunt) what if there is a God and the bible is all truth. There is a hell and a fallen angel ruling in hell. What if when you die you are judged according the freewill you were given, and the choices you made. What happens when the only way to heaven is through belief in Christ, and the alternative is hell. Just stop don't respond, and think about it.
  335. Is eternity not worth mabey just trying to see if God is real. Im not saying turn and repent that is dark age thinking, and if you look at the dark ages most ppl weren't able to read the bible themselves because well they couldn't read, and were told what to believe, but we have a choice!
  336. So is eternity mabey just worth seeing if Christ is real...?
  337. about an hour ago
  338.  
  339. dylan: Evolution has been physically proven. Why do you keep calling it a Belief? It's factual evidence backed up by more people, studies and fossils then you could possibly imagine. There are no "holes" in evolution. How many times do I have to say this. You don't BELIEVE in evolution. You either understand it, or you don't. Do you BELIEVE in electricity? The ignorance of some people is literally keeping me up at night. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Educate yourself before making claims.
  340.  
  341. And yes, we NOT SEEN A PLANET SUDDENLY SPIRE WITH LIFE... not suddenly... BUT WE HAVE! OVER 4.2 years of fossils and transitional species! We have seen evolution in action! EVERY SINGLE DAY! Do you get the common cold? Do you know that the common cold EVOLVES so that your immune system has to fight it over and over and over again!? The virus has existed for MILLIONS OF YEARS! In THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF SPECIES! AND IT CHANGES. CONSTANTLY.
  342.  
  343. I don't care if you want to wear a blindfold, just please, please please Don't spread LIES like "No one has seen or documented a positive form of evolution" That's an outright lie and intellectually dishonest.
  344.  
  345. And yes I am completely content never believing because the idea of eternity does not fit in with reality.
  346. about an hour ago ·
  347.  
  348. dylan: PS: I'm publishing this debate.
  349. about an hour ago ·
  350.  
  351. Beau Banks lol the ability for the common cold to change is an adaptation, just like skin adapting to sunlight by changing color, and yes i word is as a belief because there are still holes in the theory
  352.  
  353. 1. How does evolution add information to a genome to create progressively more complicated organisms?
  354.  
  355. 2. How is evolution able to bring about drastic changes so quickly?
  356.  
  357. 3. How could the first living cell arise spontaneously to get evolution started?
  358.  
  359. In all the years scientists have been trying to prove or recreate a positive mutation none have been successful, sure adaptations happen all the time, but animals that grow a third extremity or some other mutation often end up dead or die shortly after.
  360. 56 minutes ago
  361.  
  362. Beau Banks and as for educating myself, all I see in evolution is no progress and a bunch of dead fossilized bones most of which are found sometimes yards apart from each other and then pieced together to form something, and as for carbon dating, a lab was given a recently formed piece of rock from a volcano and the lab said it was millions of years old!
  363. 50 minutes ago
  364.  
  365. Steel: Evolution is a belief. First off, to test or investigate, or to use any science at all, you first have to BELIEVE in the rational intelligibility of the universe. Without this basic assumption or faith as some will say, all science is meaningless and useless.Christians believe the universe is rationally intelligible because God designed it that way. How do you account for the rational intelligibility of the universe?
  366. 41 minutes ago
  367.  
  368. dylan: 1: One of the main ways genetic information can increase over time in organisms (over generations, not in a single individual), is via gene duplication and genome duplication. Once genes are duplicated they have an independent history in terms of what mutations they will get, and via genetic drift or natural selection, they will over time diverge in function (or one of the duplicates may loose its function and become what is known as a pseudogene). mutations that produce a useful protein will add information. Most mutations will be adverse, or at best neutral. However, it only needs an occasional positive mutation to occur and natural selection will take over, to spread it through the population.
  369. (pwned)
  370.  
  371. 2: Evolution never produces drastic changes spontaneously. They can happen FASTER with large species deaths where only a small amount of them with a beneficial mutation survive. Cheetahs for example, are a living example of this. Let me give you a hypothetical one. Lets say you have species XYZ living on a plane. There's MANY of them there and they are very diverse, and there are many little mutations (like eyecolour and haircolour!) Now, lets say that the temperature of the plane lowers very fast because of a geological event like... say, a volcano. Most of them die because they can't handle the cold, but a select few, which are able to because they have a gene which makes their body temperature higher and makes them have more fat then other members of their species. Now, ALL THOSE CREATURES survive, and the gene that makes the fat and body tempatures higher gets selected for, because the ones with the best version get mates and live longer to mate. And there is a huge change over a short period of time. Oh, and I'm talking about polarbears.
  372. (pwned)
  373.  
  374. 3: you're talking about abiogenesis - and lucky for you, RNA has been sequenced in a lab, ALL BY ITSELF by letting it do it's thing! Also, we've created LIFE OUT OF DNA MADE BY HUMANS.
  375. Most amino acids, often called "the building blocks of life", can form via natural chemical reactions unrelated to life, as demonstrated in the Miller–Urey experiment and similar experiments, which involved simulating the conditions of the early Earth, in a scientific laboratory. In all living things, these amino acids are organized into proteins, and the construction of these proteins is mediated by nucleic acids. Which of these organic molecules first arose and how they formed the first life is the focus of abiogenesis.
  376. This video explains it.
  377.  
  378. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg
  379.  
  380. Sorry, science wins.
  381.  
  382. God= Not necessary. Have a good one.
  383. 37 minutes ago ·
  384.  
  385. Cristina:  Dylan, your being nasty again. "Sorry, science wins.
  386. God= Not necessary. Have a good one." God might not be necessary to you but He is to many of us other people who share this world with you. I think it's cool that you know so much and that your so passionate about evolution but you have to realize that we are just as passionate about our God. I just find that you are trying so hard to prove to us that God doesn't exist, why??? Aren't we allowed to believe what we choose just like you choose to believe in evolution??
  387. 21 minutes ago
  388.  
  389. dylan: Did you even read what I wrote?
  390. 14 minutes ago ·
  391.  
  392. dylan: Again with the "Believe" I don't "Believe" in evolution! I've weighed the evidence, and realized, it's factual. I don't BELIEVE in it at all. It's as real as gravity! *headdesk* Do you BELIEVE that o2 lets you breathe? You're perfectly allowed to believe in yaweh, but it's terrib anti-science anti-REALITY thinking like what ellen and Beau are spouting that is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY dangerous.
  393. 12 minutes ago ·
  394.  
  395. Cristina:  yes I did, what are you referring to ??
  396. 10 minutes ago
  397.  
  398. dylan: Obviously you read it, but you didn't understand a word.
  399.  
  400. I just CLEARLY answered, much of it in my own words, every single question your friend asked. Kindly, even though I could be doing other things. God is not necessary for LIFE to happen, is what I was saying. Please don't take it personally.
  401. Cristina:  Here's the problem Dylan, I did understand what you said, you just don't want to hear anything that doesn't align with your facts. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't have faith in all these facts you talk about. Why are there more and more scientists that are turning creationists ??? Surely their not stupid uneducated people who are being mislead, something did not add up and made them question the theory evolution. Look I do not know a quarter of what you know on evolution and I cannot debate with you on the facts, all I can say is that I'm happy with my beliefs and if your happy with all your facts, then we're good, right?? You always seemed very cool and I think I'm a pretty easy going fun loving person, we're good people who are not out to hurt anyone, isn't that enough ?? We think differently but that's OK :)
  402. 7 minutes ago
  403.  
  404. dylan: 3: Ellen (or husband, I don;t know anymore)
  405. So if you found definitive proof that there's no god, you'd shoot old ladies? because to you, there's no consequence? The consequence is the destruction of societies. The destruction of altruism and that has a negative impact on the whole. Do you think that people would not attack you for hurting someone without any reason? We invented hell as an additional means to scare people into being good, but it was only necessary in a time without police and jails and guns. If god is the ultimate judge, why do we throw people in prison to prevent them from doing it again? In your worldview, god will punish hum, but everyone he kills will go to heaven... YAAAAAAAAAAY!!?!?!?! Your argument is retarded.
  406. 4 minutes ago ·
  407.  
  408. dylan: "Why are there more and more scientists that are turning creationists???" Can you please show me evidence of this? Like... a published paper? Because the facts are that 99.9% of all scientists reject creationism outright:
  409. You're pulling that quote from the air. Back it up.
  410.  
  411. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientific_societies_rejecting_intelligent_design
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