tl;dr

[quote author=Brion Foulke link=topic=5773.msg124841#msg124841 date=1356106693]
Because it's not as one dimensional as you make it sound.  You're very right that I am trying to portray the reality of such a socioeconomic system, and in a sense this chapter is all about highlighting it's weaknesses.  But at the same time, I want to hint at why some people might choose to live in such a system despite it's weaknesses.  Politics is not a clear-cut matter of right and wrong, different people have different philosophies, and prefer different styles of government.
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So I've kind of changed my opinion of Marvallo after reading a bit more of the stuff that I skipped. It's actually come off as increasingly unrealistic, one dimensional and there doesn't seem to be any reason someone would want to live there aside from the inherent dangers of traveling, a lack of the resources needed to leave, having family or friends there or being part of the Enforcer protection racket which gets paid to break their own law.

If "NO VIOLENCE", rather than just "no murder", is the only law, it's a miracle it doesn't descend into a den of scum and villainy where people lie, cheat and steal without consequence because, well, there are no laws against it and no violent retribution to worry about. Such selfish people couldn't realistically or reasonably adhere to some pseudo-code of morality when they're not at all moral enough to even help a dying man, the most obvious right or wrong choice of all.  If they were to be accurately portrayed, the ghettos would probably look like bloody hellscapes.

Ironically, the Enforcers, by their very existence, are a symbolic embodiment of Marvallo's one dimensional hypocrisy. Even Polly broke her own law by using violence to stop a fight, while simultaneously lecturing against the violence she just used, thereby herself proving that Marvallo's one law to oppress them all doesn't actually work for [i]anyone[/i], not even those tasked with enforcing it. Not that it matters, since she's part of the state mafia that profits off that system.

The only reason I could see one wanting to live in Marvallo is...is...uh...[b]you're going to have to help me out here[/b], because I'm not sure what the actual [i]benefits[/i] to such a system are. I can understand why the Enforcers would want to live there, since they're allowed to break the one law which means they get paid to do whatever they please. But for everyone else...isn't Bern the best proof that the only sane Marvallan is one who leaves, and Polly proof that the only truly satisfied Marvallan is an Enforcer? What's in it for everyone else, aside from the freedom to drink themselves to death, steal from their neighbors or just be horrible people in general? But with a law against violence, isn't Marvallo unappealing even for horrible people? Or is that actually the point, that upper class Marvallo is a den for white collar criminals while the ghettos are a hive of violent criminals, with the Enforcers essentially taking the role of corrupt cops who look the other way depending on how much money the community has? If that's true...that would actually make perfect sense. It's just that explaining it in terms of "freedom" as opposed to "a country of institutionalized crime" causes a bit of confusion.

I know I'm definitely overthinking the issue. It's just that the current plot exists within and because of Marvallo's culture and economic system, so the fact that Marvallo's so contradictory makes it hard to draw anything from the plot other than "violence, fuck yeah."

I'm also wondering what the point of that Trollem guy was. He's probably the most inaccurate portrayal of a troll I've ever come across, likely inspired by the ever increasing use of "troll" as an epithet to describe those with dissenting viewpoints as know-nothing troublemakers simply out to harass, cause grief and spout idiotic nonsense. Kind of like how a different word (you know the one) was used to denounce African Americans and stereotype them as lazy bums who wouldn't become productive members of society if freed, because it was easier than treating them as equals. Troll is actually (originally) a term of endearment, to signify that one can cause outbreaks of drama with minimal effort, all while appearing to post a relatively innocent one or two liner. Trollem is nothing more than an offensive strawman stereotype, which is kind of disappointing, since real trolls would probably be the ones most likely to know that no one person invented the Internet and correct Maytag on her error. Only the last panel seems legit, in that only a strawman troll would call Maytag a troll just for spouting off a single meme. Isn't she actually more of a /b/tard in that regard? Neither of them are trolls. Trollem is the personification of everything trolling isn't, while Maytag embodies the reaction people have to those who actually aren't trolls. Or is that page just a pointless troll, one that isn't funny in the least bit? Or is it a passive aggressive jab at my posts? Well, whatever it is, it comes off as stupid and juvenile, and I don't really get the joke.

[quote author=Stargoat link=topic=5773.msg124843#msg124843 date=1356113202]
I am having some difficulty understanding the angst regarding some folks feel.  I can easily see the point of view of the healer's father.  They are not responsible for anyone else, without regard to their particular profession.  Yes, it is an ignoble attitude and I would dislike them for it, but I would not condemn them.  Forcing someone to do something they do not want to do is called slavery.  And yes, taxation or corvee is slavery.

And Grant certain does seem to have chosen a life and death for himself.  Even his pretty daughter grown up has not swayed him from his path.  Perhaps there is more here, but even a confirmed alcoholic would likely suck it up a bit for his pretty daughter.

Upon some consideration, the Marvello system might be able to exist in a world of magic.  A near reasonably infinite resource could potentially improve enough people's lives to the point where this system might be feasible.  I suspect that Marvello is a recent experiment, or the leader who has been referred to is a very powerful and longlived wizard who can root out insurrection.
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> The angst comes from the fact that the dues they pay to Enforcers so that they can stay in business without being robbed or killed are essentially taxes. Taxes are slavery in their minds. So the comic's established that they're slaves who deny they're slaves. Let's just call them morons. Moving on, they advocate personal responsibility and not relying on anyone else. They also pay Enforcers to protect them, thereby relying solely on the Enforcers for their safety. So the comic's also established that they're advocating personal responsibility, while not taking any for themselves. Let's call them hypocrites. So they're hypocritical morons who've convinced themselves that their way of life is superior, even though they have absolutely no actual understanding of how they live. For anyone who follows politics, such [s]people[/s] characters are a berserk button, because they're downright delusional. The danger is that they're portrayed as being sane, which leads others to buy into their delusion. Eventually you have a culture of ignorance like Marvallo's, where the people think they're living in a reality completely different from actual reality. Marvallo's philosophy is cancerous in that it's contagious and kills all rational thought that it comes into contact with. And the best way to deal with a cancer is to kill it. Yes, the world of Flipside would be better off if the entirety of Marvallo and all its people were completely and utterly decimated. It's not because they love freedom or think capitalism is grand. It's because they're so completely and utterly insane that they've completely lost their grasp on what's real and what isn't. If they at least acknowledged the hypocrisy and contradictions of their worldview, and saw it for what it actually was, then they could actually be somewhat sympathetic in a way. But their blind faith and zealotry is dangerous, especially if it spreads.


> Grant's life was already too full of suck and poverty for him to care by the time Bern found him. Because of the no violence law, and his lack of money, being healed was out of the question. Once he found out he'd already guaranteed his own death, it's not hard to understand that him prolonging his life would only cause him to suffer more. At the very least, going out in a drunken binge of glory would be the BEST way for him to die. Bern entering into his life changes nothing, as he's still doomed (barring VIOLENCE). In fact, she was never really anything more than the bun he shoved in a whore's oven. Maybe if he'd been allowed to raise the kid, instead of just having visitation rights, then Grant might've had a reason to keep himself clean and Bern might not have become such a prude. But that wasn't the way things worked out. Basically, Bern's mother's selfishness is what caused both her daughter and baby papa to wind up like they did. And that's not Grant's fault, since it's implied he at least tried to do the best he could with what little access to his kid that he had. It's also a bit of reality ensuing afterwards, as single dads who have their kids kept from them aren't exactly shining examples of joy, discipline and self restraint. It's even worse for addicts, especially so if the society is like Marvallo's and offers no help or support. AA doesn't exist just because. There is actually a point to it. Only in Marvallo, with their delusional belief in personal responsibility, there probably isn't any AA. So why wouldn't Grant wind up like he did? Was there really any choice for him to begin with? No person's life exists within a vacuum, and no man is an island. His own choices affected his life just as much as the choices of the people around him, who're just as much to blame if one of their own drinks himself to death while they stand by and chuckle.

> You're half right about the Marvallo system. It's relatively unsustainable on its own, and only exists within the confines of an oppressive state that crushes any and all conflict. Starting a fight? BOOM! Enforcers bust in and crack heads, because they aren't just above the law, THEY ARE THE LAW! It's actually kind of dystopian, in that their one law is "get along OR ELSE." It's little more than a means of pacifying and controlling people, turning them into faithful servants of the glory that is Marvallo. Let's call it mass brainwashing, founded upon enforcing the illusion of a freedom that isn't actually free. The Benefactor is nothing more than a villain with good publicity, as all those who opposed him probably got crushed under the boot of his Enforcers. And those who opposed him had to have included those fighting for REAL freedom, without any illusions of the price they would be paying for it. In fact, The Benefactor is a figure that could unite both true anarchists and those who believed in a structured society, as Marvallo combines the worst of both.