A "Terse" Discussion of Beliefs

21:18 < swashy> So Robo's roleplaying right
21:22 -!- ThatOneGuy1 [~Jesse@Rizon-52A1AD62.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined
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21:22 < ThatOneGuy1> Hey there people
21:22 < ShyGuy65> Hey
21:23 < swashy> Howdy
21:24 < swashy> did you see robo's tulpa went vocal today
21:24 <@Pleeb> sup
21:24 < ThatOneGuy1> I did not see
21:24 < ThatOneGuy1> I'm looking through forums stuff right now though
21:24 < ThatOneGuy1> Also sorry I had to cut off so abruptly earlier
21:24 <@Pleeb> And, cool!  Did he post about it?
21:24 < swashy> Yeah, in his progress thread
21:24 < ThatOneGuy1> GF brought cookies and I don't ever pass up her fucking cookies.
21:25 < swashy> Only took him a week, with only a day of that as personality work.
21:25 < swashy> He must be greater than all of us
21:25 < ShyGuy65> >gardening
21:25 < ShyGuy65> It's the fucking gardening man, that has to be it
21:26 < swashy> adding a garden to my wonderland right the fuck now
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21:27 < ThatOneGuy1> Yeah swashy
21:27 < ThatOneGuy1> You know
21:27 < ThatOneGuy1> Sometimes I think the only reason it takes people huge amounts of time is because they were conditioned to think so
21:27 < ThatOneGuy1> When in reality it could be done in a week
21:27 <@Pleeb> Well shit.
21:27 < ThatOneGuy1> But we need more people to get vocal
21:27 < ThatOneGuy1> And I need to get a guide out
21:27 < ShyGuy65> Okay, fuck personality, I'm following in Robo's steps
21:27 < ThatOneGuy1> So we can see if it turns out to be true
21:28 < ShyGuy65> Get Robo to write a guide
21:28 < swashy> So you're trusting this guy
21:28 < ThatOneGuy1> >Oh no, Robo's done something that seems impossible!
21:28 < ThatOneGuy1> >Let's write him off
21:29 < ShyGuy65> You think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?
21:29 < ThatOneGuy1> Nah man, don
21:29 < ThatOneGuy1> Don't do that.
21:29 < swashy> Okay, brb doing a tulpa in one hour because I believe I can
21:29 < ThatOneGuy1> Hehj
21:29 < ThatOneGuy1> heh
21:29 < ThatOneGuy1> Try it
21:30 < ThatOneGuy1> If you actually legitimately think you can
21:30 < ThatOneGuy1> What's barring you from at least trying?
21:30 < ThatOneGuy1> I think I'm going to drop all preconceptions of the time it takes for my next two
21:30 < ThatOneGuy1> And just go ahead without regard for 'How long it should take'
21:30 < ShyGuy65> >slash four
21:31 <@Pleeb> ImLuc said something interestind abit ago.
21:31 < ThatOneGuy1> And see what results I get
21:31 < ThatOneGuy1> Oh lord
21:31 <@Pleeb> He said visualize superman, just like, right now.
21:31 < ThatOneGuy1> What was it?
21:31 <@Pleeb> Then ask the superman why he's eher.
21:31 <@Pleeb> Or,
21:31 < ThatOneGuy1> Done
21:31 <@Pleeb> Just ask him a random question.
21:31 < ThatOneGuy1> He's now flying through my mind
21:31 <@Pleeb> And see if he answers.
21:31 < ThatOneGuy1> No response
21:31 < ShyGuy65> One-minute tulpas
21:31 < ThatOneGuy1> It's just a visualization
21:31 < ShyGuy65> Or no
21:31 < ThatOneGuy1> For me
21:32 < ShyGuy65> Instant tulpa: just add water!
21:32 <@Pleeb> He was like, "Summon superman, and ask superman 'Why are you here?'  He responds."
21:32 < ThatOneGuy1> maybe if I thought of him in a way that he could respond...
21:32 < ThatOneGuy1> Hold on
21:32 < ThatOneGuy1> Damnit superman, you're not batman
21:32 < ShyGuy65> He says "I am the night"
21:32 < ThatOneGuy1> You can't just yell JUSTICE! and be done with it
21:32 < ThatOneGuy1> ANSWER ME YOU FUCK
21:33 < ThatOneGuy1> The grandeur of superman mixed with the mystique of batman
21:33 < ThatOneGuy1> What have we done
21:33 < ThatOneGuy1> >the ideal
21:33 < ThatOneGuy1> >sub-c ideal
21:33 < swashy> I get nothing.
21:33 < ThatOneGuy1> Yeah
21:33 < ThatOneGuy1> I got nothing too
21:33 < swashy> Maybe I need to have a superman tulpa first for this to work.
21:33 < ThatOneGuy1> Or some fake ass response that I made
21:33 < swashy> Well you clearly didn't believe he would answer.
21:34 < ShyGuy65> Ask your subconscious, it knows the answer to everything
21:34 < ShyGuy65> You're not getting a response because your conscious mind is occluding it
21:34 < ShyGuy65> Become one with the new era!
21:35 < ThatOneGuy1> Hrm....
21:35  * ShyGuy65 transcends
21:35 < ThatOneGuy1> Maybe I do have beliefs working against me, swashy
21:35 < ThatOneGuy1> I think he can't respond because it's a simple visualization
21:35 < swashy> Maybe. And maybe superman can't magically answer your questions just because you ask him in your mind.
21:35 < ShyGuy65> Maybe superman is actually deaf
21:35 < ThatOneGuy1> Yes
21:35 < ThatOneGuy1> Either one
21:36 < ThatOneGuy1> But what is stopping the visualization from answering, swashy?
21:36 < ShyGuy65> Because swashy is Lex Luthor
21:36 < swashy> The visualization doesn't have a consciousness.
21:37 < ThatOneGuy1> Perhaps. But then again, the sub-c has been known to communicate through such visualizations.
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21:37 < ThatOneGuy1> Maybe if I try seeing the visualization as a representation of my sub-c.
21:37 < ThatOneGuy1> It just might respond.
21:37 < swashy> Explain.
21:37 < ThatOneGuy1> Just hold up
21:38 < ShyGuy65> >mfw tulpa is imposed right next to me and very vocal out of thin air
21:38 < ThatOneGuy1> I'm trying to put some focus into this to see if it REALLY can't and it's not just the belief system fucking around
21:38 <@Pleeb> Are we making 5-minute superman tuplas?
21:38 < Anon> TOG, there's 2 problems I think: one is parroting and another is stability
21:38 < Anon> with "quick" tulpas
21:39 < ThatOneGuy1> I'm thinking that yes
21:39 < ThatOneGuy1> parroting would be a major issue
21:39 <@Pleeb> I could totally get ImLuc in here right now.
21:39 < ThatOneGuy1> You are completely correct anon
21:39 < swashy> I would be curious to hear how he thinks this is supposed to work.
21:39 < ThatOneGuy1> I'd like to know as well
21:39 < ThatOneGuy1> I think that any response on the superman's part is simple parroting of a kind
21:40 < ThatOneGuy1> So he does respond, just not seperately of your conscious.
21:40 < ThatOneGuy1> Thoughts?
21:40 <@Pleeb> I pinged him.
21:40 < swashy> I didn't even get a response.
21:41 < ThatOneGuy1> I did, but I recognized it as some sort of parroting.
21:41 < ThatOneGuy1> I tried doing a VERY simple math problem while he talked
21:41 < swashy> I think I got some vague proto-parroting.
21:41 < ThatOneGuy1> And he kept talking in the background of my solving
21:41 < Anon> TOG, consider this, I've been up for quite some time now, so I did like about 3 hours worth of forcing (after 24 hrs awake), anyhow, focus can sometimes lost and you just get a hypnagogic voice or conversation, although the moment you notice what it is and regain focus, it just disappears
21:42 < ThatOneGuy1> Yes
21:42 < ThatOneGuy1> that is right.....
21:42 < ThatOneGuy1> The sub-c really does get very clear lines of communication when hypnagogic
21:42 < ThatOneGuy1> So perhaps this response is not one of a conscious mind, but of the subconscious?
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21:42 < ShyGuy65> JUSTICE!
21:43 < swashy> Is it deliberate communication though or just a stream of information
21:43 < ShyGuy65> What was he saying while you mathed?
21:43 < Anon> although, obviously I can't really do this and retain focus, which would make it different from a tulpa
21:43 < Anon> although maybe some peopel can, I duno
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21:43 < ThatOneGuy1> It was just some random ramblings
21:44 < ThatOneGuy1> I can't even recall what he was saying fully
21:44 < ThatOneGuy1> I do recall the word justice being in there
21:44 < ThatOneGuy1> Because, ya know, sub-c superman or some shit
21:44 < ShyGuy65> Haha
21:44 < ThatOneGuy1> But it would appear to be deliberate, swashy.
21:44 < Anon> TOG, but it doesn't quite feel like parroting in a way, as you don't quite feel you "owning" that thread of thought
21:45 < swashy> I kind of got "justice" too
21:45 < ThatOneGuy1> Exactly, Anon
21:45 < ShyGuy65> Well now the thought is primed, it'll come out no matter who you ask
21:45 < swashy> it was kind of a mumble like "TO SERVE JUSTICE" but it was like half-hearted puppeting.
21:45 -!- Chupi|away is now known as Chupi
21:45 < ShyGuy65> I imagined superman then moved his mouth liek a hand puppet and made him say "FOR JUSTICE"
21:45 < swashy> haha.
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21:46 <@Pleeb> 11:25 <&ImLuc> Lets see..
21:46 <@Pleeb> 11:26 <&ImLuc> Imagine superman up really quick, just instantly pop him up in your minds eye
21:46 <@Pleeb> 11:26 <&ImLuc> And ask him any question, watch him answer like a tulpa
21:46 <@Pleeb> 11:26 <&ImLuc> Explain that bullshit
21:46 <@Pleeb> That's what he was saying.
21:46 < Anon> which reminds me of another thing, if it would be possible to make something like this by focusing on specific intrusive thoughts, or even inducing them, although unfortunately intrusive thoughts are not too interesting
21:46 < swashy> Oh, ImLuc is a skeptic right
21:46 <@Pleeb> (this is awhile ago; he seem slike he's not around right now)
21:46 < ShyGuy65> He thought it would be an actual tulpa-like being?
21:46 < Anon> huh, doesn't he have 2 tulpas,?
21:47 < ShyGuy65> (one of them is supermang)
21:47 < Anon> no, misaka and some succubus
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21:47 < ThatOneGuy1> I think
21:47 < ThatOneGuy1> It's weird
21:48 < ShyGuy65> Wait as in tulpasex succubus, or hot demonform?
21:48 < ThatOneGuy1> ImLuc seems very skeptical of all of use
21:48 < ThatOneGuy1> us*
21:48 < ThatOneGuy1> And yet
21:48 < Anon> ShyGuy65, just a succubus form
21:48 < ShyGuy65> Okay
21:49 < ThatOneGuy1> I can barely believe anything he says
21:49 < ThatOneGuy1> Or
21:49 < ThatOneGuy1> I don't know
21:49 < ThatOneGuy1> It's just a bit troubling
21:49 < swashy> Why
21:49 < swashy> he clearly believes it all strongly
21:49 < ThatOneGuy1> Yeah...
21:49 <@Pleeb> 12:42 <&ImLuc> Ask him something and don't expect a response, watch him answer over you like a tulpa
21:49 <@Pleeb> 12:46 <&ImLuc> Ask him what hes doing here
21:49 < Anon> he made 2 tulpae a while ago, one by accident (clone), but he was worried a bit about parroting (despite the tulpa speaking over him) and sort of dropped off #tulpa
21:49 <@Pleeb> 12:56 <&ImLuc> He answers shit so quickly what the fuck
21:49 <@Pleeb> 12:56 <&ImLuc> Its like I don't have a chance to talk over it
21:50 < ThatOneGuy1> Also I'm keeping and cleaning up the logs from the suggestion game
21:50 < ThatOneGuy1> And I"m going to post them somewhere
21:50 < ShyGuy65> I already posted them, they're on the hilarious conversation thread
21:50 < ThatOneGuy1> The best way to become a better Gamemaster is to just run games from the top of your head
21:50 < ThatOneGuy1> Oh
21:50 < ThatOneGuy1> you got them
21:50 < ThatOneGuy1> Imma still keep logs for myself then
21:52 -!- ImLuc [~MoriyaShr@Rizon-8DF9147F.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined
21:52 < ImLuc> Whats up?
21:52 <@Pleeb> That superman thing is up.
21:52 < ImLuc> What about it?
21:52 < ImLuc> You said it was parroting right?
21:52 < Anon> how's Misaka, ImLuc?
21:52 <@Pleeb> We were trying to rationalize how we're getting responses.
21:52 < ImLuc> Oh shes good fed
21:52 < ImLuc> Oh so wait, you ARE getting responses now?
21:52 < ImLuc> I thought you said he couldn't talk over you
21:52 <@Pleeb> Parroting would be the most rationale explination.
21:53 <@Pleeb> He's not talking over me, though some others got a response, I think.
21:53 < ImLuc> Then why is there an issue?
21:53 < ImLuc> Oh I see
21:53 < swashy> Well no not really. We're kind of getting parroting, mildly, if anything
21:53 < ThatOneGuy1> Yeah
21:53 < ThatOneGuy1> At most, sub-c communication
21:53 < ThatOneGuy1> At the least it's just parroting
21:54 < Anon> you can still tell apart intrusive thoughts and hypnagogic voices and tulpae by consistency/history/reported subjective experiences/coherency (over time) though
21:54 < ImLuc> All of those just feel different to me at this point
21:55 < ImLuc> Hypnagogic voices are loud and sound real, tulpae are kinda like that at times, but they can speak over you and just feel different, and intrusive thoughts don't exist anymore for me
21:55 < ImLuc> I got rid of it somehow and I'm happy
21:57 < Anon> congrats
21:57 < ThatOneGuy1> From experience
21:57 < ThatOneGuy1> You eventually lose them
21:57 < ThatOneGuy1> Or at least they're not frequent
21:57 < ImLuc> I used to have it everyday lol
21:57 < ImLuc> Now I get it like, once per 2 weeks or something
21:57 < ImLuc> Anyway, what type of responses did you get from supahman?
21:57 < ThatOneGuy1> JUSTICE!
21:57 < ThatOneGuy1> And also some weird ramblings
21:57 < ThatOneGuy1> When I did a math problem alongside him speaking
21:57 < ThatOneGuy1> Which is why I was saying sub-c commune
21:58 < ThatOneGuy1> Goddamn
21:58 < ThatOneGuy1> The place is packed tonight
21:58 < ThatOneGuy1> 16 people
21:58 < ThatOneGuy1> That's like a record or something
21:58 < ImLuc> What is sub-c communication?
21:58 < swashy> Okay I tried it again. Now whenever I ask "why are you here" I get superman's voice saying "why are you here" at the same time as my normal inner voice.
21:59 < ThatOneGuy1> The subconscious communicating through visualizations or things like the superman speaking.
21:59 < swashy> I think it's a bug though.
21:59 < ShyGuy65> There were only 11 hits, so I don't think there's a problem
22:00 < ImLuc> So do you think we go through this whole tulpa process for nothing if we can receive answers this quickly then
22:00 < ImLuc> ?
22:00 < ImLuc> Why is superman so easy to get an answer from?
22:00 < ThatOneGuy1> Because we don't want subconscious responses that lack personality
22:00 < ThatOneGuy1> We want responses from another conscious mind
22:00 < swashy> We're not though? Who said superman was answering here?
22:00 < ImLuc> How are you so sure it isn't superman that is answering then?
22:01 < ThatOneGuy1> You subconscious, ImLuc, is putting together likely responses and projecting them through superman speaking.
22:01 < ImLuc> Does he have a different voice?
22:01 < swashy> That.
22:01 < swashy> ^oneguy
22:01 < ShyGuy65> It's doubtful that it is a tulpa-like thoughtform
22:01 < ThatOneGuy1> Exactly
22:01 < ImLuc> Then whats the difference?
22:01 < Anon> well, you can't keep superman as a real tulpa though, and it wouldn't stand up to more testing, or would it?
22:01 < swashy> It's basically just an extension of the visualization.
22:01 < ImLuc> I'm sure if you question him enough he will have his own personality
22:02 < ThatOneGuy1> When people come together with opposing stubborn opinions
22:02 < ThatOneGuy1> They clash
22:02 < swashy> You could probably puppet the personality of his you know from the show, yeah
22:02 < ThatOneGuy1> That's for sure
22:02 < swashy> well show and comics.
22:02 < ImLuc> Thats it, we are trying to not find opinions here
22:02 < ShyGuy65> Yeah, like me and Phi on types of intelligence
22:02 < ImLuc> But facts
22:03 < ThatOneGuy1> Well that's all they are at this point
22:03 < ThatOneGuy1> Getting objective data from any of this is going to be kind of difficult, you know.
22:03 < ImLuc> Then you observe what you can
22:03 < ImLuc> and analyze it
22:03 < ShyGuy65> Facts are gained through experimentation
22:03 < ShyGuy65> >tulpas haven't been empirically proven yet
22:03 < ImLuc> But what you said can be an explanation for tulpae too
22:03 < Anon> someone still needs to try and make a tulpa only by lucid dreaming and forcing over some dream person
22:03 < ThatOneGuy1> Could be
22:03 < ThatOneGuy1> Who knows?
22:03 < ImLuc> But then, why do people not get answers from tulpae when they ask them questions?
22:03 < cardscov> fascinating
22:04 < ImLuc> Why does superman make your brain answer so easily?
22:04 < ThatOneGuy1> I'm sticking by both theories for now at this point.
22:04 < ThatOneGuy1> I'd assume because the personality of the tulpa needs to be created first
22:04 < ShyGuy65> I say it's just the subconscious parroting for you
22:04 < ThatOneGuy1> And the assumed personality of superman already exists within the sub-c
22:04 < ImLuc> Thats not true
22:04 < ImLuc> What about tulpae based off of characters
22:04 < ShyGuy65> The subconscious hasn't recognized superman as an entity in your mind
22:04 < ImLuc> They don't talk immediately.
22:04 < Anon> ShyGuy65, what are you and what is the tulpa? both are kind of subconscious projections
22:05 < ShyGuy65> *in your mind*
22:05 < swashy> Because you have memories of superman to work off of.
22:05 < ImLuc> My tulpa didn't talk until 50 hours in nearly
22:05 < ThatOneGuy1> Yeah
22:05 < Anon> but the thing is both you and tulpa have real continuity and memory, thus subjective experiences and intelligence and so on
22:05 < ImLuc> And mine is based off of a character
22:05 < ImLuc> explain that bullshit
22:05 < ImLuc> but I tried the superman thing and it worked immediately
22:05 < ShyGuy65> You still had to force it didn't you?
22:05 < ImLuc> Force what?
22:06 < ShyGuy65> The character tulpa
22:06 < swashy> What kind of responses did you get from Superman anyhow, ImLuc?
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22:06 < ImLuc> Well of course shyguy
22:06 < ImLuc> And yeah, I got simple stuff from superman
22:06 < ShyGuy65> But you don't need to force superman for whatever reason
22:06 < ImLuc> Which is odd.
22:07 < ShyGuy65> Tulpas haven't been empirically defined,
22:07 < ShyGuy65> but we can pretty much agree
22:07 < swashy> like what? What did he answer when you asked why he was here?
22:07 < ImLuc> Err, I asked him where he lived and he said krypton
22:07 < ShyGuy65> HA, THAT'S NOT THE REAL SUPERMAN THEN IS IT?
22:07 < ShyGuy65> HE LIVES ON EARTH
22:08 < Anon> ask him what his earliest memory is? inb4 movie/series memories
22:08 < ShyGuy65> But anyway
22:08 < swashy> DON'T STIFLE HIS DEVIATION
22:08 < ImLuc> err
22:08 < ImLuc> I did that forever ago lol
22:08 < ImLuc> I'll have to get him back
22:08 < swashy> Get him back? Just visualize him and ask him.
22:08 < ShyGuy65> Tulpas are induced by getting the subconscious to simulate another personality
22:08 < ImLuc> k
22:08 < ShyGuy65> Simulate
22:08 < ShyGuy65> As in, with detailed processes
22:09 < Anon> ShyGuy65, but tulpas run by themselves after a while, just like you
22:09 < ShyGuy65> We do not have detailed simulations of characters in our head
22:09 < ImLuc> K, asked him again
22:09 < ShyGuy65> We only have past behavior
22:09 < ImLuc> and he said he hailed from kyrpton
22:10 < ImLuc> earliest memory thing tripped him up, but he eventually said he was raised on a farm
22:10 < ShyGuy65> We have very little detail on their thought processes,
22:11 < ShyGuy65> and our subconscious doesn't believe we have that character in our minds
22:11 < ShyGuy65> Also, wasn't Jor-el a politician?
22:11 < ImLuc> As a babby he was sent to earth remember?
22:11 < swashy> His earth parents were farmers derp
22:12 < ShyGuy65> Yeah, but he said he lives on Krypton
22:12 < ImLuc> err
22:12 < ShyGuy65> So this is alternate continuity
22:12 < ImLuc> I meant he was "from" there
22:12 < ShyGuy65> ...
22:12 < ShyGuy65> Fine.
22:12 < swashy> he said he hailed there when he asked him again
22:12 < swashy> hailed from there*
22:12 < ImLuc> Yeah, I never use such words lol, subconscious can be quick sometimes
22:12 < ThatOneGuy1> I think
22:12 < ThatOneGuy1> that this character was already pre-established
22:12 < ThatOneGuy1> BUT
22:13 < ImLuc> So is my tulpa
22:13 < ThatOneGuy1> You recognize your tulpa as different from the character somehow
22:13 < ImLuc> And Irish's
22:13 < ImLuc> And Pronass
22:13 < ShyGuy65> TOG: my point
22:13 < ThatOneGuy1> And for your sub-c
22:13 < ThatOneGuy1> It's like developing a whole new personality still
22:13 < ThatOneGuy1> And the superman's personality is likely very shallow
22:13 < ImLuc> Not really, I wanted my tulpa to be just like the character she is based off of
22:14 < ShyGuy65> It involves a great deal more detail then just taking something from memories as a character
22:14 < ThatOneGuy1> >like
22:14 < ThatOneGuy1> Ok then
22:14 < ImLuc> Haha thats mean, superman isn't shallow
22:14 < ThatOneGuy1> Well then yeah
22:14 < ThatOneGuy1> It's still developing a new personality
22:14 < ThatOneGuy1> which explains why it still takes so much time then
22:14 < ImLuc> eh, thats too easy to say, why wouldn't your mind go the easy way?
22:14 < ImLuc> And go OH THAT CHARACTERS ACTS LIKE THIS
22:14 < ImLuc> and insert it
22:14 < ShyGuy65> Maybe your sub-c can take up new personalities very quickly
22:15 < ShyGuy65> But it's more generic
22:15 < ShyGuy65> And it was also connecting it to his memories of Superman media
22:16 < ImLuc> >inb4 people make superman tulpae
22:16 < ThatOneGuy1> Or the pony version
22:16 < ThatOneGuy1> SuperMARE
22:16 < ThatOneGuy1> Or maybe
22:16 < ImLuc> no
22:16 < ImLuc> god no
22:16 < ThatOneGuy1> SuperMANE
22:16 < Chupi> >inb4 they look and act like the superman in superman64
22:16 < ImLuc> Superman 64
22:16 < ImLuc> Was a boss game
22:16 < ImLuc> you could freeze enemies
22:16 < ImLuc> and throw them in the water
22:16 < ImLuc> for lulz
22:16 < Chupi> and fly through rings
22:16 < ImLuc> awww yeah
22:16 < Chupi> and fly through more rings
22:16 <@Pleeb> All of this is kinda blowing my mind.
22:16 < Chupi> and fly through even more rings
22:16 < ShyGuy65> Seriously?
22:17 <@Pleeb> Indeed.
22:17 < ImLuc> But seriously guys, why wouldn't my mind do that immediately?
22:17 < ImLuc> Why would it decide to pull memories and make automatic answers from that?
22:17 < ShyGuy65> Because your sub-c is also subject to your critic?
22:17 < ImLuc> If it was that simple, wouldn't personality work make talking nearly instant
22:17 < ShyGuy65> From hypnosis theory
22:17 < ImLuc> Oh god what?
22:17 <@Pleeb> I think I'm going to try to break some more mental blocks, see if Chess can get vocal sooner.
22:17 < ShyGuy65> The critic tells your mind what's real
22:18 < ShyGuy65> Hypnosis subdues it and weakens it
22:18 < ImLuc> That sounds
22:18 < ShyGuy65> Which ishow hypnosis can convince people of fantasies
22:18 < ImLuc> so mumbo jumboy.
22:18 < ShyGuy65> is how*
22:18 < ImLuc> Hyponosis is believing in whatever the person tells you
22:18 < Chupi> Pleeb: how?
22:18 < ImLuc> Because you trust them, and you are focused
22:18 < ShyGuy65> No it's not
22:18 < ImLuc> thats it
22:18 < ImLuc> Yes it is, you can't be hypnotized unless you want to

^^^^^ LIES, YOU CAN BE HYPNOTIZED AS LONG AS YOU DON'T RESIST ^^^^^

22:18 < ShyGuy65> Television hypnotizes
22:18 < ImLuc> Its following commands through trust
22:18 < ShyGuy65> Driving on a highway
22:19 < ImLuc> Yeah, and?
22:19 < ShyGuy65> Hypnosis has been developed a lot more than tulpae
22:19 < Anon> that reminds me, wasn't there someone trying to develop a tulpa through hypnosis (not autohypnosis)
22:19 -!- Mode change [-r] for user ShyGuy65
22:19 -!- You're now known as ShyGuy65|dinner
22:19 < ImLuc> Oh guys, go ask superman what are all of his powers
22:20 <@Pleeb> Chupi: Assuming Robo really did get a vocal tupla in a week, this might be a matter of the belief system, us thinking that it takes hours and hours for a vocal tulpa...  Or something ilke that.
22:20 < ImLuc> Especially if you don't remember them off of the top of your head
22:20 < Anon> http://tulpa.info/forums/Thread-Tulpa-Couple-s-thread?page=2
22:20 <@Pleeb> ImLuc: He'll be ranting for awhile.
22:20 < Chupi> hmm
22:20 < ImLuc> Err..
22:20 < ImLuc> My tulpa might have been vocal a long time ago
22:20 < ImLuc> But I wasn't sure and I called it off as parroting
22:20 < swashy> Well I got nothing.
22:20 < ImLuc> Like, monthhhss
22:20 < swashy> I guess he has no powers.
22:20 < ImLuc> SWASHY
22:20 < ImLuc> YOU DIDN'T ACCESS YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS
22:20 < ImLuc> DO IT
22:21 < Anon> Pronas' still isn't vocal mine still isn't, but I'm getting a fuckton of emotional responses lately
22:21 < swashy> How do I do that exactly
22:21 < ImLuc> idklol
22:21 < ImLuc> Visualize him harder son
22:21 < ImLuc> you can do it
22:21 < swashy> I'm really pretty sure the only "responses" are your mind associating things.
22:21 <@Pleeb> Yeah, poor Pronas.
22:22 < swashy> Like thinking of an apple, and then your mind going to an apple tree
22:22 < ImLuc> My mind doesn't do that..
22:22 < ImLuc> but okay
22:22 < swashy> It's an example.
22:22 < Anon> how to visualize an apple: think of an apple
22:23 < ImLuc> VISUALIZE A TALKING APPLE
22:24 < Chupi> how about a talking pear?
22:24 < Chupi> LOLWUT
22:24 < Anon> but i can't into voices
22:24 < ThatOneGuy1> Pleeb: That's why I wanted to write a guide about the time it took and the belief system, in order to dispel preconcieved notions of how much time it takes.
22:24 < ThatOneGuy1> I'm not sure entirely how to go about it though...
22:24 < swashy> Eeeeeeeh.
22:24 < ImLuc> Pronas says that he gets answers
22:24 < ImLuc> but he believes that hes parroting
22:25 < ImLuc> QUESTION
22:25 < Anon> TOG: I think it's more than the belief system though, you still need visualization and other imaginary skills
22:25 < swashy> I really don't know that that's worth a guide.
22:25 < ImLuc> Why was it so easy for dane and Irish to do it?
22:25 < swashy> Easy? I don't follow.
22:25 < Anon> ImLuc, he believes he's parroting because the answers Kate gives are really featureless stuff, also no subconscious access to memories and whatnot
22:25 < swashy> Dane took a long time and a lot of work.
22:25 < ImLuc> They didn't need a whole IRC channel or community to help them do it
22:26 < Anon> so now Kate just grunts
22:26 < ThatOneGuy1> Visualization and the like certainly does factor in, I know that Anon
22:26 < Anon> and no talking over each other
22:26 < swashy> Dunno. Dane's just smart I suppose.
22:26 < ImLuc> Oh, the talking over thing?
22:26 < ImLuc> Maybe hes just not listening
22:26 < ImLuc> I know that sometimes you can miss what a tulpa says if you aren't paying attention
22:29 < swashy> But anyways TOG, I'd question writing a guide on that subject until you manage to have first hand knowledge of belief affecting tulpa creation.
22:29 < ImLuc> Yeah, placebo effect doesn't always work
22:29 < ImLuc> Which is arguably what hypnosis is actually, a placebo effect in itself
22:29 < Anon> well, assuming TOG's belief hax theory works, he should be able to either make a tulpa much faster or guide someone through it that way
22:29 < ImLuc> Also, how do you force "belief" anyway?
22:29 <@Pleeb> ThatOneGuy1: I'll get started on the whole, breaking-mental-blocks tomorrow morning, and see if I can alter my belief system enough, maybe try to get Chess vocal; that should be a decent test for if it's true or not..  She's been a lat more active recently (moving, etc), and it seems like she can reply to certain things sometimes (though it's similar to the superman effect, so I'm not sure if parroting or not; I can elaborate on wha
22:29 < Anon> and I think tulpae aren't conscious beliefs, but subconscious beliefs, so they need to be formed indirectly
22:29 < ImLuc> Oh god
22:29 < ThatOneGuy1> Look
22:29 < Chupi> Pleeb: your message got ccut off
22:29 < ImLuc> So much psuedoscience
22:29 < Anon> >  can elaborate on wha
22:29 < ThatOneGuy1> Look look look
22:29 < ThatOneGuy1> I need more evidnce
22:29 <@Pleeb> Aww, hate irssi sometimes.
22:29 < ThatOneGuy1> But
22:29 < ThatOneGuy1> I can't get it if the belief that it takes super huge amounts of time is still flowing around
22:29 < swashy> Well that's what I mean. More evidence.
22:30 < swashy> More established members of the community reporting it working.
22:30 < ThatOneGuy1> So idea
22:30 <@Pleeb> TOG: /msg me a good method with your, if you want someone to test it first before we throw it into the mainstream.
22:30 < ThatOneGuy1> I'm going to get a test thread out there
22:30 < Anon> ImLuc, imaginary beliefs just stand on themselves though, unlike beliefs based on observed stuff
22:30 <@Pleeb> Or, just post it here, and people write it off until it can be tested.
22:30 < ThatOneGuy1> Exactly Anon
22:30 < ImLuc> Like belief in god fed?
22:30 < ThatOneGuy1> Hot damn
22:30 < ThatOneGuy1> Anon's got it tonight
22:30 < Anon> sort of like you're in a deep enough trance and just say "This goes there and there." and it then goes there and there
22:31 < ThatOneGuy1> I think that we are thinking alike right now
22:31 < ThatOneGuy1> Anyways
22:31 < ThatOneGuy1> I'll drop you a message, Pleeb
22:31 < ImLuc> HE IS AKIN TO YOUR VIBRATIONAL STATE TOG?
22:31 < ThatOneGuy1> Or put it up here
22:31 < ThatOneGuy1> FUCK YES HE IS IMLUC
22:31 < ThatOneGuy1> WE ARE LIKE
22:31 < ThatOneGuy1> AT THE SAME SOUL FREQUENCY
22:31 < ImLuc> Tesla was a vibrational faggot too, it might have some ground
22:31 < ImLuc> And all of teslas shit worked
22:32 < ThatOneGuy1> eh
22:32 < ThatOneGuy1> Anyways
22:32 < ImLuc> OH YEAH
22:32 < ThatOneGuy1> Imma get started on writing some shit up
22:32 < Anon> ImLuc, I don't actually mean 'belief' as anything more than something your brain considers as true internally, regardless of how that "truth" value was attained, sort of like an expectation of behavior
22:32 < Chupi> ImLuc: except when he lit a cornfield on fire trying to send power through the air
22:32 < Anon> so if you expect that imaginary couch to flip, it'll flip
22:32 < ImLuc> Oh god he did?
22:32 < Chupi> yeah
22:32 < ImLuc> That guy was nuts too, maybe it was just a bi product
22:33 < Chupi> and if everything he did worked, we'd have wireless lightbulbs now
22:33 < ImLuc> It did work, but no one funded his stuff
22:33 < ImLuc> ;~;
22:33 < ImLuc> Because it was nearly free energy
22:33 <@Pleeb> Tesla was epic.
22:33 < ImLuc> his stuff was cheap to keep up
22:33 < Chupi> well, sending that much power through the air just breaks shit
22:33 <@Pleeb> I'm just going to say that.
22:33 < ImLuc> It does chupi, but he could have fixed it
22:34 <@Pleeb> He was a bit nuts, but he was still epic.
22:34 < ImLuc> very
22:36 < Anon> anyway, to give an example of a more tulpa related belief. Let's say you're making a tulpa and you're narrating to him/her. You may consciously decide to treat your tulpa like a person, but don't assign it personality right away, nor do you feel emotions in relation to it right away, but consider you do something which makes you model/treat it like a real person, suddenly your brain now thinks it's a real person because you're treating and thinking about it like a
22:36 < Anon> so subconscious belief acquires
22:36 < Anon> *acquired
22:36 < Anon> difference being between what you can consciously reason and what you truly expect to see happen
22:37 -!- You're now known as ShyGuy65
22:37 -!- Mode change [+r] for user ShyGuy65
22:37 < ImLuc> Eh, subconscious beliefs..
22:38 < ImLuc> Thats an odd topic, because does that mean that that ALWAYS happens?
22:38 < ImLuc> What is the trigger for such a thing?
22:38 < Anon> the thing is that tricking the subconscious is not always easy though
22:38 < Anon> usually it's indirect, unless you do hypnosis or something
22:39 < ThatOneGuy1> MMMMRRFFF
22:39 < ThatOneGuy1> ANON IS ON IT TONIGHT
22:39 < ThatOneGuy1> Also tulpae have an easy time with hypnosis like stuff
22:39 < ThatOneGuy1> But there are methods for changing beliefs without hypnosis like things
22:39 < ThatOneGuy1> Affirmations is one that I know of, and have used
22:40 < ThatOneGuy1> If hypnosis is like slyly slipping beliefs in
22:40 < ThatOneGuy1> Affirmations is like going at them with a sledgehammer
22:40 < Chupi> like, just tell yourself repeatedly?
22:40 < ThatOneGuy1> Pretty much
22:40 < Anon> I don't think I could be made ot believe that 1 + 1 is not 2 though
22:40 < Anon> unless I was half-asleep
22:40 < ThatOneGuy1> Observed belief vs. Imaginary Beliefs, I think.
22:40 < ThatOneGuy1> Like you said earlier
22:41 < ThatOneGuy1> And it's pretty much brute force belief breaking
22:41 < ThatOneGuy1> I haven't tested it on Observed beliefs
22:41 < ShyGuy65> I might be able to change my belief system
22:41 < ThatOneGuy1> So I don't know about that, but it seems plausible that it could work at least temporarily.
22:42 < ShyGuy65> But if it doesn't work in a week or two, it won't disprove anything
22:42 < ThatOneGuy1> IFeh
22:42 < ThatOneGuy1> You can get temporary belief changes in single night
22:42 < ThatOneGuy1> I've done it faster than that, too
22:42 < ThatOneGuy1> But permenant?
22:42 < ThatOneGuy1> Yeah, that might take a while.
22:42 < ShyGuy65> Well, Robo's post kind of damaged it already
22:43 <@Pleeb> TOG, stop talking about it and go write something detailed up for me :o
22:43 < ThatOneGuy1> Yep
22:43 < ShyGuy65> And I only read about taking forever a month ago
22:43 < ThatOneGuy1> Seeing evidence is like a C4 charge on belief too
22:43 < ShyGuy65> I don't think it's so permanent
22:43 < ShyGuy65> And I can do a self-hypnosis session tonight
22:43 < ShyGuy65> We need more people in on this
22:44 < ThatOneGuy1> I KNOW PLEEB
22:44 < ThatOneGuy1> I NEED TO WRITE IT UP
22:44 < ThatOneGuy1> BUT YOU KNOW HOW I AM
22:44 < swashy> And skepticism is the bomb technician that neutralizes that c4
22:44 <@Pleeb> JUST GO NAO
22:44 <@Pleeb> CHESS NEEDS YOU TO DO IT!
22:44 < ThatOneGuy1> Pretty much, swashy.
22:44 < Anon> well, thing is beliefs don't just exist by themselves, they're a whole tightly interconnected network usually
22:44 < ThatOneGuy1> Yep
22:44 < ImLuc> Pleeb, just believe and it should work faggot
22:44 < ThatOneGuy1> No
22:44 < ThatOneGuy1> He needs help changing beliefs
22:44 < ShyGuy65> >self-hypnosis
22:44 < ThatOneGuy1> It's not always as simple as 'Just believe'
22:45 < ThatOneGuy1> That's one way, ShyGuy
22:45 < ThatOneGuy1> I prefer affirmations personally
22:45 < ThatOneGuy1> Easier
22:45 < ShyGuy65> It's harder for me to remember affirmations erryday
22:45 < ShyGuy65> I have history with self-hypnosis
22:45 <@Pleeb> I need to get more dramatic than that.  A trance and a sledgehammer!
22:45 < ThatOneGuy1> mmmyesss
22:45 < ThatOneGuy1> Do both
22:45 < ThatOneGuy1> That's rather
22:45 < Anon> ps, there is a difference between: "I believe the sky is blue." "I believe that I have the belief 'I believe the sky is blue'"
22:45 < ThatOneGuy1> Intriguing
22:46 < ShyGuy65> Or slip into a trance before bed
22:46 < ShyGuy65> Then do affirmations until you fall asleep
22:46 <@Pleeb> I haven't tried going into a trance in like.... 5 years?
22:46 < ThatOneGuy1> Use some binerual beats or tones, Pleeb
22:46 < ShyGuy65> It's sort of like how you get when you tulpaforce
22:46 < ThatOneGuy1> Or if you prefer music use that
22:46 < ShyGuy65> Count down a few times, relaxing progressively more
22:46 < ThatOneGuy1> Also I tried out that Pure noise fede made
22:46 < ShyGuy65> And also saying that you are becoming more relaxed and more susceptible to suggestion
22:46 <@Pleeb> ThatOneGuy1: I'd usually listen to music and try to pick out one instrument, or something like that.
22:46 <@Pleeb> idunno
22:46 < ThatOneGuy1> Some fun stuff
22:47 < ThatOneGuy1> Not any better than regular music
22:47 < ThatOneGuy1> For me at least
22:47 < ThatOneGuy1> But it certainly does block out noise wel
22:47 < ThatOneGuy1> well*
22:47 < ImLuc> Well, I guess a ceremony/ritual could work for you pleeb
22:47 < ImLuc> Spin around 20 times clap and face towards the sun and yell HALLELUJAH and your tulpa can talk
22:47 < ShyGuy65> I do it in silence, you don't need tones for everything
22:47 < ThatOneGuy1> I know
22:48 < ThatOneGuy1> Silence works
22:48 < ShyGuy65> Wait, isn't Pleeb christian?
22:48 < ThatOneGuy1> If you can ever find silence
22:48 < ShyGuy65> >sleep
22:48 < ThatOneGuy1> But if you can't, well...
22:48 < ThatOneGuy1> That's when I slap on my headphones and play music
22:49 < ShyGuy65> Okay
22:50 <@Pleeb> I need to go to bed in a few, but...
22:50 <@Pleeb> TOG: Write this for me!
22:50 <@Pleeb> Clair: Make TOG write this for me!
22:51 < swashy> >pictures of ourself thread
22:51 < ShyGuy65> >no
22:51 < ImLuc> Haha I said superman could go and he was like
22:51 < swashy> now the circlejerking can begin in earnest
22:51 < ImLuc> "UP UP AND AWAY~"
22:51 < ShyGuy65> Well
22:51 < ShyGuy65> That's to be expected
22:52 < ImLuc> lol
22:52 < ImLuc> It was pretty funny
22:53 < Anon> ps: Robo seems like the new glitch
22:53 < ShyGuy65> How so?
22:54 < Anon> judging from the progress report
22:54 < Anon> > I've created a few psudotulpae, but they always end up getting killed after awhile by some random force, usually taking the form of an enemy of some kind. it disappears soon afterword. I had gotten so sick of it I quit forcing for some time until I saw a thread on another forum about this.
22:54 < ShyGuy65> Oh yeah, that
22:54 < swashy> Yeah I noticed.
22:54 < ImLuc> Oh god lol
22:54 < ImLuc> That sounds like glitch
22:54 < Chupi> well, that's how he's getting vocal ones in a week
22:54 < ShyGuy65> "Guys, this brain demon keeps eating my tulpae, wat do?"
22:54 < Chupi> he has a good deal of former experience
22:55 < Anon> glitch's second tulpa talked in hours apparently, but then he thought he was parroting it, so now she's talking at 20 something?
22:55 < ShyGuy65> Yeah,--NO. CHANGE BELIEF. CHANGE BELIEF.
22:55 < ImLuc> Theres no way to prove such a thing
22:55 < ShyGuy65> I'm going to make a research thread on tulpa-making times
22:56 < ThatOneGuy1> PLEASE
22:56 < ThatOneGuy1> DO IT SHYGUY
22:56 < ThatOneGuy1> But first
22:56 < Anon> there's that google docs
22:56 < ThatOneGuy1> Actually nevermind
22:56 < ThatOneGuy1> Do whatever
22:56 < ImLuc> What type of things besides tulpae and random creations do sub conscious beliefs control?
22:56 < Anon> it's been kind of abandoned though
22:56 < swashy> Flying
22:56 < ShyGuy65> But first what?
22:57 < ShyGuy65> What googledoc?
22:57 < ShyGuy65> ?????????
22:57 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: Lucid Dreaming
22:57 < Anon> TOG, you should experiment with Clair about what beliefs she can change directly (and what you can change in her), then try to see if she can change something to get you a tulpa *fast*
22:57 < ImLuc> Oh god what?
22:57 < ImLuc> How does it effect lucid dreaming?
22:57 < Anon> you can do whatever you think you can do in lucid dreams though
22:57 < swashy> ^Anon
22:57 < ShyGuy65> Lucid dreaming is all about the belief of whether or not you are dreaming
22:58 < Anon> so since I believe my dreams are almost always vivid if I'm lucid and that I can change anything in them, I usually can
22:58 < ImLuc> Nope, I can have multiple powers in dreams and some won't work
22:58 < swashy> Hypothetically if she implants the idea that you can make a tulpa in a day, you should be able to make a tulpa in a day.
22:58 < Anon> same goes for accessing old memories and other kinds of hax
22:58 < ImLuc> And sometimes powers work when I don't believe they will work
22:58 < Anon> but I can't summon my tulpa in a lucid dream properly, it's strange
22:58 < ImLuc> Its like completely random
22:58 < ImLuc> Yeah, I can't summon a tulpa in a lucid dream either
22:58 < ThatOneGuy1> yeah anon, we've been experimenting with what exactly she can change
22:58 < ShyGuy65> >Lucid dreaming is all about the belief of whether or not you are dreaming
22:59 < ShyGuy65> >That's all I meant
22:59 < Anon> ShyGuy65, if you're in a LD, you're already aware of what your state is, thus you become aware of what you can do, thus you can greatly change the course of the dream, providing you want to
22:59 < ThatOneGuy1> It seems like the more deeply I believe something, the harder it is to change, though she can still change it.
22:59 < ThatOneGuy1> ie observational beliefs
23:00 < ShyGuy65> Anon: I know, but the last LD I had I got caught up in the dream and eventually forgot I was dreaming
23:00 < Anon> Vinyl's "mindcontrol" erasure thing was interesting, can Clair do that for you?
23:00 < ThatOneGuy1> Like right now, I could see if she could change it up so that I think 1+1=3 or some shit.
23:00 < ThatOneGuy1> Let me try.
23:00 < ShyGuy65> Anon: There's also things like some reality checks not working
23:00 < Anon> 1+1=3 scares me too much to try
23:00 < ShyGuy65> About 1+1=3
23:00 < ShyGuy65> You can't test on irc
23:00 < ShyGuy65> Because it seems too much like trolling
23:01 < ThatOneGuy1> Fine
23:01 < Anon> it would be genuinely dangerous for me to believe that, but oh well, let's leave that for another day
23:01 < ThatOneGuy1> What should I do then?
23:01 < ShyGuy65> Change the color of the sky
23:01 < ThatOneGuy1> It's night time
23:01 < ShyGuy65> during daytime
23:01 < ShyGuy65> I meant
23:01 < ThatOneGuy1> So that shouldn't be too hard to believe that it's something else
23:01 < Anon> try inverting colors or blanking out a word
23:01 < ThatOneGuy1> I mean
23:01 < ThatOneGuy1> I'm not going to hallucinate it differently
23:01 < Anon> one thing which would be really worth trying: muting one sense and having that go entirely through the imagination
23:01 < ThatOneGuy1> She's not imposed you know
23:02 < ThatOneGuy1> Changing my physical senses is tough
23:02 < ShyGuy65> Hm.
23:02 < ThatOneGuy1> But right now, since I can't see the sky
23:02 < ThatOneGuy1> Sky color*
23:02 < ShyGuy65> Well, I didn't mean with hallucination, I meant what you're saying now
23:02 < ThatOneGuy1> She might be able to convince me that it's a different color than what it is
23:02 < ThatOneGuy1> Or at least temporarily
23:02 < ThatOneGuy1> I doubt it would be permanant
23:02 < ShyGuy65> I think that's a "definitely"
23:03 < ShyGuy65> Try it. I'll go make the thread for beliefs and tulpa-making times
23:03 < ThatOneGuy1> WELP
23:03 < ThatOneGuy1> This is fucking weird
23:03 < ShyGuy65> Wait, you did it already?
23:04 < ThatOneGuy1> It's sort of like memories of the sky
23:04 < ThatOneGuy1> Very easy
23:04 < ShyGuy65> So what color is the sky?
23:04 < ThatOneGuy1> It doesn't take long at all
23:04 < Anon> ShyGuy65, one thread exists
23:04 < ThatOneGuy1> I think the change will fade quickly though
23:04 < ThatOneGuy1> I seem to think it's red
23:04 < ThatOneGuy1> But
23:04 < ShyGuy65> Anon: Where?
23:04 < ThatOneGuy1> I just know it's blue
23:04 < ImLuc> Hypnotic suggestion is supposed to be permanent
23:04 < ThatOneGuy1> It has to be
23:04 < Anon> http://tulpa.info/forums/Thread-How-much-can-a-personality-you-or-the-tulpa-change http://tulpa.info/forums/Thread-Memory-deletion-and-modification and some other one
23:04 < ImLuc> It used to be used to help people stop smoking
23:04 < ThatOneGuy1> But trying to recall memories of it being blue isn't working
23:04 < ThatOneGuy1> It's like
23:05 < ThatOneGuy1> I remember it as red
23:05 < ThatOneGuy1> Like a soft pale red
23:05 < ThatOneGuy1> But now it's fading
23:05 < Anon> but you realize that you used to remember it as blue?
23:05 < ThatOneGuy1> Yes
23:05 < ShyGuy65> Anon: Memory modification okay, but personality changes?
23:05 < ThatOneGuy1> I do realize that
23:05 < ThatOneGuy1> And it's strange
23:05 < Anon> ShyGuy65, first thread
23:05 < ThatOneGuy1> And now it is indeed fading
23:05 < ThatOneGuy1> Getting visual memory of blue sky
23:05 < ThatOneGuy1> Also since it's an observational belief, I'd assume that messing with memories is part of it
23:06 < ShyGuy65> Anon: I mean, how does that pertain to belief systems?
23:06 < ThatOneGuy1> Anon
23:06 < ThatOneGuy1> Could you evaluate
23:06 < ThatOneGuy1> What exactly happened
23:06 < ImLuc> Wait, you did it that quickly..?
23:06 < ThatOneGuy1> Yes
23:06 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: Scroll up
23:06 < ImLuc> :|
23:06 < ThatOneGuy1> It's not difficult with a tulpa
23:06 < ThatOneGuy1> And it wasn't permenant
23:06 < ImLuc> Placebo effect is strong in this one
23:06 < ShyGuy65> I don't think he's trolling
23:07 < ShyGuy65> OR placebo
23:07 < ThatOneGuy1> If I was going for permenant
23:07 < Anon> TOG, you mean why it reverted?
23:07 < ThatOneGuy1> It would have taken a while
23:07 < ImLuc> I think its placebo, its just memory anyway
23:07 < ImLuc> If he wants to be legit, go make the nightsky white
23:07 < Anon> haha
23:07 < ThatOneGuy1> Anon I mean I remembered that the sky should have been blue, but all memories were of it being red.
23:07 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: No.
23:07 < ImLuc> No you no shyguy
23:07 < ShyGuy65> TOG: Have you felt cognitive dissonance before
23:07 < ImLuc> you nintenyearold
23:08 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: You're asking for too much right now, this is just a small experiment, and TOG seems legit on this
23:08 < ThatOneGuy1> Probably
23:08 < ImLuc> Placebo effect can be easy
23:08 < ThatOneGuy1> Yeas ShyGuy
23:08 < ImLuc> Especially if you believe that you will see something that you don't want to see
23:09 < ImLuc> Kinda like intrusive thoughts
23:09 < Anon> TOG: The way beliefs affect qualia amazes me too damn much. I have a hypothesis, but I'm leaving it until my tulpa talks and I can experience it for myself.
23:09 < ThatOneGuy1> Ok
23:09 < ThatOneGuy1> Also I thought you had a tulpa, ImLuc?
23:09 < ImLuc> Yeah, with meditation you can make your hands seem hot or whatever
23:09 < ImLuc> and actually MAKE THEM HOTTER
23:09 < ImLuc> I do TOG
23:09 < ThatOneGuy1> Why don't you just go try some belief stuff.
23:09 < ShyGuy65> Anon: I usually can't talk about qualia, but it does seem to fit with the subconscious and hypnosis exceptionally well
23:09 < ImLuc> Because I'm too much of a fag to try that
23:09 < ThatOneGuy1> Well, Okay then.
23:09 < ImLuc> and last time I did I didn't know what to do so I went to sleep
23:10 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: How is the placebo effect relevant when it's all part of a subjective experience in TOG's mind?
23:10 < Anon> ShyGuy65, yes, but we usually assume reported qualia = actual qualia, which means "high-level" beliefs actually change a lot too
23:10 < ImLuc> Placebo effect makes you believe you cannot or can do something
23:10 < ThatOneGuy1> reading up on Qualia in a philosophic sense
23:10 <@Pleeb> Tomorrow, I'm going to see if Jake is up for having Vinyl plant a seed in his subc telling him that the sky is red.
23:10 < ShyGuy65> Anon: I was just saying, this makes qualia easier for me to talk about seriously somehow
23:11 < ImLuc> No one knows how placebo effects work, so don't bother them
23:11 < ThatOneGuy1> And I just realized something
23:11 < ThatOneGuy1> And Imma tell Pleeb
23:11 < ImLuc> Placebo effect can directly effect nearly any qualia
23:11 < ImLuc> Like apparently you can put your hand in ice cold water and feel nothing under hypnosis
23:11 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: IF IT'S AFFECTING QUALIA THEN THAT MEANS IT WORKED ANYWAY
23:11 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: I think you're misdefining the placebo effect
23:11 < ThatOneGuy1> Either way ImLuc, it fucking changed and if the tulpa helped facilitate said effect then it worked anyway.
23:11 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: We got what we were looking for
23:12 < ThatOneGuy1> WHAT SHYGUY SAID
23:12 < ThatOneGuy1> You don't have to be so stubborn, man.
23:12 < ImLuc> No, theres a slight difference
23:12 < ShyGuy65> :|
23:12 < ImLuc> The tulpa might have done absolutely nothing is what I'm saying
23:12 < ShyGuy65> Oh rly
23:12 < ImLuc> its his belief that his tulpa CAN do it is what matters
23:12 < ImLuc> not that the tulpa did something, thats the difference
23:12 < ShyGuy65> I don't think it matters if the tulpa did it or if his sub-c did it itself
23:13 < ShyGuy65> What matters is the appearance, because the appearance can be replicated
23:13 < ImLuc> Thats a matter of opinion then
23:13 < ShyGuy65> This is in its infancy
23:13 < ImLuc> It doesn't matter if your mom or dad did your homework for you, its done right?
23:13 < ShyGuy65> We want consistent results right now, not further theorization
23:13 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: That's a stupid analogy and you know it
23:14 < ShyGuy65> We don't care about how the tulpa is affected right now
23:14 < ShyGuy65> What matters is the change to TOG's beliefs
23:14 < ThatOneGuy1> You're grasping at straws here for things to complain about, ImLuc. Just chill the fuck out.
23:14 < ImLuc> Theres gotta be a devil's advocate
23:14 < ImLuc> I'm seeing if you can defend your theory
23:14 < ImLuc> Circlejerks are boring
23:14 < ThatOneGuy1> If you use shitty arguments
23:14 < Anon> ImLuc: but the thing is that both you and the tulpa believe that you did something
23:14 < ShyGuy65> We know for certain that it wouldn't be so quick if we tried it on someone without a tulpa
23:14 < ThatOneGuy1> The conversation is still circular
23:14 < swashy> Why don't we try implanting a more analogous belief, like the belief that you can visualize much more vividly or something like that?
23:15 < Anon> so when the tulpa would introspect
23:15 < Anon> it would feel itself as having done something
23:15 < ShyGuy65> swashy: That's the kind of belief that could effect results, too.
23:15 < ShyGuy65> affect*
23:15 < swashy> Well, yeah? I don't understand what you're saying.
23:16 < Anon> swashy: I can do that in a lucid dream, very easily. Not so much when I'm wide awake though
23:16 < ImLuc> Thats akin to giving a kid a controller and making them believe they beat a game though
23:16 < ShyGuy65> swashy: If it was done thoroughly enough, it could become true
23:16 < ImLuc> When they are just mashing buttons while you use the real controller
23:16 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: No one cares about kids, their memories are malleable anyway
23:16 < swashy> I don't see how that makes the test less valuable, shyguy.
23:16 < ShyGuy65> Anyway
23:16 < ShyGuy65> Anon
23:17 < ShyGuy65> What was the personality changes topic having to do with changing belief systems?
23:17 < ImLuc> I can't do anything cool in lucid dreams, you guys are weird
23:17 < ShyGuy65> I don't see a connection there
23:17 < ImLuc> ;~;
23:17 < ImLuc> I can just control a few things, I never get any of that super calculation abilities or something
23:17 < Anon> personality changing was about changing core personality beliefs that affect each other using similar tricks as these
23:17 < Anon> so instead of affecting passive stuff, you affect core / active things
23:18 < ShyGuy65> I thought it was about the personality actually changing
23:18 < ShyGuy65> Like through growth
23:18 < ShyGuy65> Not beliefs
23:18 < ShyGuy65> I'm going to go read that again
23:18 < Anon> hmm
23:18 < ThatOneGuy1> Also I just want to say
23:19 < ThatOneGuy1> That having Clair put in a belief that I would go lucid woks
23:19 < swashy> I forget, what did we say about implanting the belief that TOG can make a tulpa in a day?
23:19 < Anon> ShyGuy65, I'm confused, what are we discussing about again, remind me
23:19 < swashy> Or maybe even an hour
23:19 < Anon> how about this belief
23:19 < ShyGuy65> Anon: I was going to make a new topic
23:19 < ShyGuy65> Anon: Specifically about both tulpa-making times and changing belief systems
23:19 < Anon> first you define a personality, some traits/etc
23:19 < ImLuc> I also tried asking my tulpa to jump in dreams with me to make me lucid
23:19 < ImLuc> nothinghappened
23:19 < Anon> then ToG tries to believe it's complete and when it will question said prototulpa, it would speak by itself
23:20 < Anon> so having his tulpa insert the belief that the prototulpa can talk and is complete
23:20 < Anon> not sure if it's a good idea
23:20 < ShyGuy65> swashy: At least give it a few hours, TOG doesn't want a bland boring tulpa wandering everywhere
23:21 < ThatOneGuy1> So you guys work your shit out here
23:21 < Anon> but seems like an interesting experiment
23:21 < ThatOneGuy1> And I'll read about it when it's in coherent form on the forum
23:21 < ThatOneGuy1> Or some shit
23:21 < swashy> TOG, what do you think about the idea?
23:21 < ThatOneGuy1> I can't even follow what's happening right now
23:21 < ImLuc> But what if the mind just makes a work around way to make the tulpa seem like its talking
23:21 < ThatOneGuy1> I'll wait for the forum topic
23:21 < Anon> ShyGuy65: go ahead if you want, it might be more on-topic?
23:21 < ImLuc> Theres no way to prove that it really is or isn't
23:21 < ImLuc> it could be doing that subconscious junk
23:21 < swashy> ThatOneGuy1: implanting the idea that you can make a tulpa more rapidly.
23:21 < ThatOneGuy1> Ah yes, that.
23:21 < ThatOneGuy1> Well
23:21 < Anon> ImLuc: but it could bootstrap the process much faster
23:21 < Anon> to actually make a tulpa, you do need some continuity/experience, otherwise you get superman or dream people
23:21 < ThatOneGuy1> I was going more along the lines of breaking down beliefs that say it takes loads and loads of time
23:21 < ImLuc> It could make a servitor from your subconscious
23:21 < ThatOneGuy1> But yeah
23:21 < ImLuc> Or make a true subconscious projection instead
23:21 < swashy> Well okay, either way.
23:21 < ShyGuy65> And Anon: It is about how personality and belief affect each other
23:22 < ShyGuy65> ImLuc: Servitors take time as well
23:22 < ThatOneGuy1> I was going to come up with a little guide for breaking the beliefs
23:22 < ThatOneGuy1> And then I was going to put it up to test it or something
23:22 < Anon> not entirely sure it's a good idea though, because tulpae still need some development, but maybe it could be used to
23:22 < swashy> Shouldn't you test it before writing a guide?
23:22 < Anon> relaly speed up some parts, like sentience
23:23 < ShyGuy65> Anon: Maybe make two topics, one for changing belief systems, the other for tulpa-making times?
23:24 < ShyGuy65> lag... why?
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> I can't test it without the guide, though.
23:24 < swashy> I don't understand.
23:24 < ImLuc> But the point is that the thing would be controlled by the subconscious instead of by you
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> It'll be going in research
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> So that people can try it
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> And I can see if it works
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> 1. Use guide
23:24 < ImLuc> Unless servitors in general are actually subconscious or something, I'm not sure
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> 2. Report in
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> 3. Take data
23:24 < Anon> ImLuc: but both conscious 'you' and tulpa are controlled by the subconscious
23:24 < swashy> What, is it a guide on hypnotizing yourself not to believe in a long process? I don't understand.
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> 4. Decide whther or not it's feasible
23:24 < swashy> Oh I see, you want other tulpa implantation test data.
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> I just want people to try it
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> Without tulpae
23:24 < Anon> unfortunately this idea, providing it works at all, would be useful only for those that already have a tulpa
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> And see if hour counts drop
23:24 < swashy> Wait, so then what's the process without tulpa?
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> That's why I'm writing the guide, bro.
23:24 < swashy> I mean give me a general idea. Is it just affirmation?
23:24 <@Pleeb> So yeah, TOG...  Stop posting in IRC, write the guide for me, I'll check it in the morning, and we shall see what happens!
23:24 < ThatOneGuy1> I'm going to go over affirmation and possibly self-hypnosis
23:24 <@Pleeb> I'm going to bed.
23:25 < ThatOneGuy1> As well as some more details about it
23:25 < ThatOneGuy1> 'night Pleeb
23:25 < Anon> later
23:25 < ImLuc> If we are controlled by it, aren't we the subconscious then
23:25 < swashy> Night pleeb.
23:25 < ImLuc> OoOOoOO
23:25 <@Pleeb> g'night everyone
23:25 < ShyGuy65> No
23:25 < ShyGuy65> Good night
23:25 < ThatOneGuy1> yes ImLuc
23:25 < ThatOneGuy1> lulz
23:25 < ThatOneGuy1> no we're not
23:25 -!- Pleeb is now known as Pleeb|Sleeping
23:25 -!- Pleeb is now known as Pleeb|Sleeping
23:25 -!- Irssi: You are now talking with Pleeb|Sleeping
23:25 < ThatOneGuy1> We are a projection of it
23:25 < Anon> ImLuc, if we're controlled by physics, are we not physics?
23:25 < ThatOneGuy1> if you consider yourself your mind
23:25 < ShyGuy65> We are physics, ImLuc
23:25 < Anon> you have the *feeling* of free will
23:25 < ImLuc> WE ARE PHYSICS THOUGH
23:25 < ShyGuy65> We aAaAaAare
23:25 < ThatOneGuy1> And your body just a form
23:26 < ThatOneGuy1> whatever
23:26 < ThatOneGuy1> Just rambling now
23:26 < ThatOneGuy1> I quit
23:26 < ShyGuy65> Anon: Maybe make two topics, one for changing belief systems, the other for tulpa-making times?
23:26 < Anon> that high-level belief in it is what gets you to qualia, but then I don't want to talk my "religion"/philosophy of mind position here now
23:26 < ThatOneGuy1> I need to go and write shit. You guys figure this out and shoot me a PM over the forum, would you?
23:26 < ShyGuy65> I'll make a topic about tulpa-making times at least
23:26 < ShyGuy65> I'll try and get mine sentient and talking
23:26 < ShyGuy65> in... two weeks
23:27 < Anon> ShyGuy65, you're free to make any topic you want, but I have to go to soon so
23:27 < swashy> I guess I was thrown off by the "guide" thing. Sounds more like TOG is writing a hypothesis than a guide.
23:27 < ShyGuy65> swashy: Well, we call essays guides here
23:27 < ShyGuy65> For some reason
23:27 < swashy> We do?
23:27 < swashy> I thought we called guides guides because they guided people.
23:27 < ShyGuy65> I was joking
23:27 < ShyGuy65> But TOG is kind of making a guide
23:27 < swashy> Oh. You funny.
23:28 < ShyGuy65> It's about trying to change beliefs
23:28 < ShyGuy65> Going over affirmations, hypnosis, etc
23:28 < ImLuc> No fed
23:28 < ImLuc> Moar
23:28 < swashy> My problem is him wanting to change beliefs with no reason to believe it will help people.
23:28 < ThatOneGuy1> but...
23:28 < ShyGuy65> No, he's experimenting so he can make the guides better
23:29 < ImLuc> So hes writing a blind hypothesis?
23:29 < swashy> He's writing a guide before experimenting to make sure it works, though.
23:29 < ShyGuy65> Are you saying he can't have any selfish or alterior motives?
23:29 < ImLuc> And labeling it a guide?
23:29 < ShyGuy65> He can update it
23:29 < swashy> ^
23:29 < swashy> it sounds like he should just write up a test, and then write a guide based on his results.
23:29 < ShyGuy65> We already know that affirmations and self-hypnosis can be used to change beliefs
23:29 < ShyGuy65> It's a guide on those topics
23:29 < ShyGuy65> And with experimentation, more can be added
23:30 < swashy> We don't know that belief can affect tulpa creation time though.
23:30 < swashy> That's just a hypothesis of his.
23:30 < ShyGuy65> That's what my Research thread'll be about
23:30 < swashy> I don't think that should be part of a guide though.
23:30 < ShyGuy65> I don't think he's making it part of it
23:30 < ShyGuy65> Are you, TOG?
23:30 < swashy> Oh. Well that would make this a lot different.
23:31 < ShyGuy65> Also, about the psi stuff
23:31 < ThatOneGuy1> WHAT
23:31 < ShyGuy65> I've decided to ignore it
23:31 < ThatOneGuy1> I CANT FOLLOW THIS SHIT
23:31 < ShyGuy65> I need to focus on a few things now
23:31 < swashy> ThatOneGuy1: in your guide will you be telling people that belief affects creation time?
23:31 < ShyGuy65> TOG: Are you making affecting tulpa creation time part of the guide?
23:31 < ThatOneGuy1> No, that's why I'm testing it.
23:32 < ShyGuy65> See?
23:32 < swashy> Oh. Okay, I misunderstood you then.
23:32 < Anon> TOG: so you're going to try to make a quick tulpa into a real tulpa using Clair's belief hax?
23:32 < ThatOneGuy1> What
23:32 < ThatOneGuy1> No
23:32 < ThatOneGuy1> it's just
23:32 < ThatOneGuy1> Let me summarize
23:32 -!- Irssi: Starting query in Rizon with swashy
23:32 <ShyGuy65> But yeah, I'm going to remain undecided about psi
23:32 <ShyGuy65> No change to my belief system
23:33 < ThatOneGuy1> I think that the belief system could possibly effect creation time, with people taking so long because of the huge amounts of time in the original guides planting beliefs.
23:33 < ThatOneGuy1> So I want to try and break some of these beliefs
23:33 < ThatOneGuy1> And see if hour counts get lower.
23:33 < ThatOneGuy1> If they do, I might have been onto something.
23:33 < Anon> TOG: I'm taking longer than FAQ's estimates, so is Chupi
23:33 < ThatOneGuy1> If they don't, then I might have been wrong.
23:33 <swashy> Same. I've heard interesting things about it from TOG and Pleeb I didn't know before, but have no more or less reason to actually believe it's legit.
23:33 < Anon> and Pronas'...
23:34 < ThatOneGuy1> So that's why I'm testing shit; and on top of that there may be other beliefs.
23:34 < ThatOneGuy1> But those are irrelevant to this specifically.
23:34 < ShyGuy65> There needs to be a topic about changing belief systems specifically and what they can affect
23:34 < ThatOneGuy1> Yefs
23:34 < ThatOneGuy1> yes
23:34 < ThatOneGuy1> That actually sounds good
23:34 < ShyGuy65> Not just tulpa creation times, personality, or memory modification
23:35 < ThatOneGuy1> I think I could get something like that going
23:35 < Anon> changing beliefs systems can be a subtle thing though, it can just be a matter of attitude
23:35 < ThatOneGuy1> Yep
23:35 < ThatOneGuy1> Or you can do what I do and go at it with the affirmation hammer
23:35 < ShyGuy65> Attitude's part of it, but there *are* other things involved
23:35 < Anon> TOG, but does that work for everyone?
23:35 < ShyGuy65> Yeah
23:35 < ShyGuy65> Lots of people do it
23:35 < Anon> not everyone is as susceptible to hypnosis
23:35 < ThatOneGuy1> It's worked in the cases I've seen.
23:36 < Anon> although I do wonder if this is fixable
23:36 < ShyGuy65> Affirmation's not really hypnosis
23:36 < ShyGuy65> And everyone has been observably affected by hypnosis
23:36 < ShyGuy65> That is, we don't have any countercases
23:36 < Anon> hypnosis is just = relaxed trance state + focus + "affirmations"
23:36 < ShyGuy65> >TV hypnotizes
23:37 < ShyGuy65> Anon: Affirmations are many times more effective in hypnosis
23:37 < ShyGuy65> But hypnosis was observed first and more basically
23:37 < ShyGuy65> Affirmations are more specifically without hypnotic trance
23:38 < ThatOneGuy1> I have to write some stuff up for making a thread like that, and I have to get my thoughts together,
23:38 < ShyGuy65> I'll make the thread for potentially shorter tulpa creation times
23:38 < ThatOneGuy1> However it probably won't be done tonight since I always seem to let thoughts stew for a little while before acting on them
23:39 < Anon> while this is all interesting, people need to try stuff out first before making guides
23:39 < ThatOneGuy1> YES
23:39 < ThatOneGuy1> EXACTLY
23:39 < ShyGuy65> >I'm not making a guide
23:39 < ThatOneGuy1> Which is why I want to get this shit out there.
23:39 < ShyGuy65> And the people that are making guides are taking a very long time about it, too
23:39 < ShyGuy65> Which is good in that respect, I guess
23:39 < swashy> Even after all that's come out I still feel safest following FAQ's method primarily
23:40 < ThatOneGuy1> I only read FAQ's guide, and based my methods from previous experience and that
23:40 < ThatOneGuy1> And still yet
23:40 < ThatOneGuy1> Clair came along quicker than many tulpae around here, I think.
23:40 < Anon> you shouldn't read FAQ's reaches of tulpae or w/e was that other guide, IMO he has certain limiting beliefs about how tulpae work
23:40 < Anon> like changes after imposition
23:40 < ThatOneGuy1> Yes
23:40 < ShyGuy65> Yeah
23:40 < ThatOneGuy1> I think that's one thing that was limiting
23:40 < Anon> or how tulpae can't make items or do other things
23:41 < ThatOneGuy1> Exactly
23:41 < ThatOneGuy1> So people read this stuff
23:41 < ThatOneGuy1> Get these beliefs planted
23:41 < ThatOneGuy1> And then spread them further
23:41 < ThatOneGuy1> Limiting us in what we can do
23:41 < ShyGuy65> And it affects them because it's an informed source (to them)
23:41 < ThatOneGuy1> yes
23:41 < ThatOneGuy1> Exactly
23:41 < ShyGuy65> Yeah
23:41 < Anon> although for some people, cookie-cutter tulpas are fine though
23:41 < swashy> What other things in Reaches were inaccurate?
23:41 < ShyGuy65> Like how FAQ lied about tulpa sex
23:41 < Anon> lol
23:41 < ThatOneGuy1> Alright look
23:42 < ThatOneGuy1> I have to get off here for now
23:42 < swashy> I don't mind a cookie cutter tulpa at all. A tulpa's a tulpa
23:42 < ThatOneGuy1> Be sure to post these logs in a paste
23:42 < ThatOneGuy1> Or at least the useful parts
23:42 < ShyGuy65> Yeah
23:42 < ThatOneGuy1> In the thread if you make it
23:42 < ShyGuy65> I'm going to read over this again
23:42 < ThatOneGuy1> It could supplement it greatly
23:42 < ThatOneGuy1> Anyways, see you.
23:42 < Anon> laters
23:42 < ShyGuy65> Bye
23:43 -!- ThatOneGuy1 [~Jesse@Rizon-52A1AD62.columbus.res.rr.com] has left