Slack

Jonathan Creamer [11:01 PM]
Did I miss something?! https://twitter.com/nodevember/status/771520648191483904
 Nodevember @nodevember
We will also be removing Douglas Crockford from our keynote speakers list to help make the conference a comfortable environment for all.
TwitterYesterday at 8:30 PM

William Golden [11:03 PM]
Yeah, long story short some of the attendees and speakers (and other keynoters) felt uncomfortable having him speak

[11:04]
due to some past behavior/remarks

[11:04]
I felt it was in the conference’s best interest to distance ourselves from it

[11:05]
there is more context around it on twitter but that’s the basic gist

[11:05]
I know lots of folks where looking forward to it, but it’s still going to be a great conf — and more inclusive / safe for folks of all backgrounds / identities

Paul McNeely [11:52 PM]
did he say something sexist or racist or something?


----- Today September 2nd, 2016 -----
Steve Brownlee [12:03 AM]
Follow the Twitter trail. Basically what it boils down to is the Nodevember crew ensuring that the people they put in front of the attendees are not only knowledgeable, but also supportive and encouraging speakers who won’t alienate people.  Y’know how many companies have a “We don’t hire assholes” policy?  This appears to be along those lines. I support it and will be talking to NSS students about it as well.

Matt Crum [12:33 AM]
@mattg: have you checked out hood.ie? Last time I checked they were doing some neat offline first stuff.

William Golden [7:38 AM]
Thanks for putting it succinctly Steve. While we have a tremendous respect for Doug's abilities as a speaker and his contributions, we felt that based on feedback from other speakers and attendees, his presence would make others uncomfortable and it's our job to ensure everyone at the conference feels safe and welcomed.

potetm [7:55 AM]
Just to second that^ opinion in a more concrete way: I was thoroughly skeptical at first. Then I watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0EF0VTs9Dc&app=desktop. 15min in and we've had one remark about genitals that's inappropriate at best (yes I see the title, but I was hoping it would somehow, in some way, end up being appropriate), and we've had another condescending remark about people who use colorizing editors. (edited)

[7:56]
WARNING: The title of that^ video is inappropriate for professional settings.

[7:58]
The talk is informative and entertaining, but there is no reason to be inappropriate or rude. And I support the stance that those things matter perhaps more than technical content.

Patrick Altman [8:14 AM]
That talk is why people consider him dangerous or otherwise creates an unsafe environment?

Andrew Albright [8:17 AM]
video length: 50 minutes; someone hit me with a *tl;dw*

potetm [8:19 AM]
It is an example of apparently consistent, unapologetic behavior.

[8:20]
@maalbright21 I've already given a summary of why I think it's applicable :slightly_smiling_face:

Andrew Albright [8:21 AM]
I meant of the video itself

potetm [8:21 AM]
:notsureif: serious

Andrew Albright [8:21 AM]
Oh I see

potetm [8:22 AM]
It's a monad video.

[8:22]
There is no tl;dw

Andrew Albright [8:22 AM]
I somehow skimmed over your comment above

potetm [8:22 AM]
Only more videos.

Andy Matthews [8:23 AM]
joined #javascript

Kyle Welch [8:23 AM]
@joshcrews Based on your tweet, see above.

Josh Crews [8:24 AM]
joined #javascript by invitation from @kylewelch

Jonathan Ray [8:24 AM]
And his reason for not liking parentheses on the outside of an IIFE.

Andrew Albright [8:24 AM]
@jonathanray What reason was that?

Jonathan Ray [8:25 AM]
Not going to say it, but if he ever said that in a conference he probably wouldn't be invited back.

Andrew Albright [8:26 AM]
Fair enough; I had no idea of any of this.

Terrence Jones [8:29 AM]
Somebody wrote an article about why they wouldn’t speak at another conference with him...https://medium.com/@nodebotanist/why-i-won-t-be-speaking-at-conferences-with-douglas-crockford-anymore-61bc29f028c8#.nobr4tphp
 Medium
Why I won’t be speaking at conferences with Douglas Crockford anymore.
Update: I’ve switched comments to ‘not visible.’ I won’t be reading them. I don’t feel the need to justify this, either. Thanks :heart:.
Reading time
----------------
2 min read

Feb 16th at 11:31 AM

Andy Matthews [8:32 AM]
left #javascript

Wes Mangum [8:42 AM]
Kas spoke last year at Nodevember as well. I would definitely trust her stance on things regarding inclusivity

Andrew Albright [8:44 AM]
This will be my first year; I'm looking forward to it!  I have always been primarily a .NET developer who did some js on MVC views and such, but have transitioned into a full JS front end role.  I have a lot to learn.

chris hill [9:09 AM]
joined #javascript. Also, @wacraven joined.

Josh Crews [9:36 AM]
I don’t know Crockford, but a disinvite from a conference keynote is a big dishonor— like a trashing of reputation.  I’m observing this going, “he must be an asshole, and stay away from him”.  If that’s not the case, I think Nodevember needs to publicly clarify what’s going on.

Ean Platter [9:38 AM]
I disagree with Crockford on some things, but it’s not like he’s Richard Stallman

Andrew Albright [9:42 AM]
The legend of the toe jam

Wes Mangum [9:44 AM]
Crockford’s past behavior in conference contexts goes against Nodevember’s Code of Conduct (http://nodevember.org/conduct.html)

Terrence Jones [9:46 AM]
More context https://twitter.com/nexxylove/status/771503406716334080
 mx emily a rose @nexxylove
@nodevember one way you could show you actually care about community safety & diversity is by uninviting Douglas Crockford.
TwitterYesterday at 7:22 PM

Jonathan Creamer [9:46 AM]
I see. Wow. Crazy stuffs.

[9:46]
He’s no doubt an… interesting fella.

[9:47]
I had hot chicken with him at Hattie B’s. He hardly talked the entire time. Even when I asked him things about what he’s working on at PayPal he said, “nuthin’”… O_o

Terrence Jones [9:47 AM]
I do wonder if an deeper explanation on the reasoning for uninviting him could benefit those not in the loop

[9:48]
Instead of making people track down the twitter trail

[9:48]
just a thought

Paul McNeely [9:48 AM]
@potetm I watched the first 15 and other than the title I didn't catch any references

Matt [9:50 AM]
@terrenceljones I tried looking for the trail and only saw that tweet with no clarification. Except for the article that was posted

Terrence Jones [9:51 AM]
Yea look at the tweet I posted above

[9:51]
it gives more context

[9:52]
follow her quote and it’s trail

Josh Crews [9:52 AM]
is this correct: “he’s disinvited for the past behavior that was generally known about him at the time Nodevember announced he was a keynote speaker”?

Paul McNeely [9:53 AM]
notice that the tweet AND the blog post are the same person

William Golden [9:53 AM]
@joshcrews  I had not know about any past behavior or he’d not have been invited

Terrence Jones [9:53 AM]
_true_ @mcneely

William Golden [9:54 AM]
But specifically, he was uninvited because other attendees and speakers did not feel comfortable attending/speaking with him there

Andrew Albright [9:54 AM]
I think to sum it up, many conference speakers have spoken with him at other conferences and generally didn't like his attitude and condescending nature, and have openly refused to speak at a conference with him in the future.  Maybe some of those speakers accepted the Nodevember invite, but then discovered he was also speaking and were going to back out?

Paul McNeely [9:55 AM]
While in the video he use a lot of double entendre there was nothing direct or threating I saw.  Someone show me some hard evidence pelase.

HermitPy [9:55 AM]
joined #javascript

HermitPy [9:55 AM]
https://medium.com/@nodebotanist/why-i-won-t-be-speaking-at-conferences-with-douglas-crockford-anymore-61bc29f028c8#.27jzsqtba
 Medium
Why I won’t be speaking at conferences with Douglas Crockford anymore.
Update: I’ve switched comments to ‘not visible.’ I won’t be reading them. I don’t feel the need to justify this, either. Thanks :heart:.
Reading time
----------------
2 min read

Feb 16th at 11:31 AM

Wes Mangum [9:55 AM]
I would think the title of his talk is evidence enough

HermitPy [9:56 AM]
is another example of how people feel

[9:56]
Nodevember doesn't owe anyone anything

[9:56]
He was announced via twitter and dismissed via twitter

Josh Crews [9:57 AM]
Maybe Nodevember could make a public statement along these lines, "After announcing Crockford as a keynote speaker, we learned from others of things he's done and said at previous conferences that are against our Code of Conduct"

HermitPy [9:57 AM]
why do we need to do that

[9:57]
what does that do other than add more fuel to a fire?

Andrew Albright [9:57 AM]
It would save people time for trying to find the answer themselves

[9:58]
'cause I burned at least ten minutes this morning to satiate my curiosity

HermitPy [9:58 AM]
I personally hope people will do some research and form their own opinion

Andrew Albright [9:58 AM]
^ good point

Josh Crews [9:58 AM]
you are reputation tarnishing somebody if you are not clear about the disinvitation

Andrew Albright [9:58 AM]
opinion and reason for the decision are two different things though

HermitPy [9:58 AM]
no doubt

Russ Anderson [9:58 AM]
I will say that it’s difficult to do the research. I don’t think the twitter trail is very edifying. This chat has been much more helpful.

HermitPy [9:59 AM]
We're dismissing a keynoter without context other than they didn't fit our view of the community (edited)

Russ Anderson [9:59 AM]
however, I agree that you don’t owe anyone anything

HermitPy [10:00 AM]
All this whole thing has done is ensure that I won't do one more fucking thing for the community, so next year other people can run their own conference and pick their own shit and deal with it (edited)

Andrew Albright [10:00 AM]
What?  Why?

Russ Anderson [10:00 AM]
damned if you do, damned if you don't

HermitPy [10:00 AM]
:point_up:

Andrew Albright [10:00 AM]
So let the haters hate?

Josh Crews [10:00 AM]
if you make clear why he’s disinvited, i believe the issue will be over in 24 hours

[10:01]
if you don’t make it clear, it will be this cloud of tarnish on the conference for a while

Wes Mangum [10:01 AM]
https://twitter.com/nodevember/status/771520648191483904
 Nodevember @nodevember
We will also be removing Douglas Crockford from our keynote speakers list to help make the conference a comfortable environment for all.
TwitterYesterday at 8:30 PM

HermitPy [10:01 AM]
I feel no cloud of tarnish

Russ Anderson [10:01 AM]
well, I appreciate all your hard work and you have the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these decisions

Wes Mangum [10:01 AM]
why: to help make the conference a comfortable environment for all.

Josh Crews [10:01 AM]
what’s lacking in "We will also be removing Douglas Crockford “… is that you need to say what changed between inviting him and disinviting him

HermitPy [10:02 AM]
left #javascript

William Golden [10:02 AM]
I’ll think about a way to put it eloquently @joshcrews

HermitPy [10:03 AM]
joined #javascript

Josh Crews [10:04 AM]
do you like the suggested statment i gave?  i think a gracious resolution

William Golden [10:05 AM]
There is more nuance required, I think, but overall, yes.

Josh Crews [10:05 AM]
thanks, I’ll bow out, @jasonmyers you are doing great work, please don’t let me discourage

William Golden [10:06 AM]
thanks for trying to help though @joshcrews I appreciate it

Paul McNeely [10:07 AM]
I think the problem here is that a few people don't like his talks, for whatever reason, and isn't of just not attending his talks, they won't tolerate his views and opinions anymore, which is the definition of bigotry BTW. So they're doing their best to submarine this guy.

Banks Humphreys [10:08 AM]
joined #javascript

Wes Mangum [10:09 AM]
He has a history (with accounts to prove it) of making spaces uncomfortable/hostile for women and other minorities. Those people voicing their opinions and being heard is not bigotry.

Terrence Jones [10:09 AM]
I can of see it as him _submarining_ himself

HermitPy [10:09 AM]
left #javascript

Terrence Jones [10:10 AM]
You can’t treat people and the community like crap and expect to remain relevant and be invited to activities

Paul McNeely [10:10 AM]
Two people on twitter/medium both starting with Mx in their name?

Terrence Jones [10:10 AM]
I think your argument is like _were not dating until were Facebook official_ (edited)

[10:11]
you don’t need proof on the internet for it to be _real_ (edited)

[10:11]
I hope that this gives a voice to others who had negative experiences

[10:11]
to speak up

Wes Mangum [10:11 AM]
I don’t see how the Mx has relevance, but two seemingly-feminine people voicing their opinions is representative of other people who are afraid to speak up.

Terrence Jones [10:12 AM]
:point_up:

William Golden [10:13 AM]
y’all the bottom line is it’s going to be a great conference

[10:13]
and i hope you all still consider attending

Russ Anderson [10:13 AM]
damn right!

Terrence Jones [10:14 AM]
@wgolden won’t miss it!

Matt [10:16 AM]
@wgolden I don't know. The past two years I seemed to always get the swag bag that doesn't have the macbook pro in it

William Golden [10:16 AM]
you gotta get there earlier! :stuck_out_tongue:

justin mahon [10:17 AM]
I would love to get swag that fits

[10:17]
Darn sugar is just too addicting...

William Golden [10:18 AM]
we asked the vendor to have larger/taller shirts — they dont have a ton in stock, but will provide us with a few options for taller folks

Paul McNeely [10:18 AM]
@terrenceljones You haven't show any valid evidence that he has done anythign wrong. just hearsay. And to make decisions without solid evidence is just wrong.

William Golden [10:18 AM]
We can do up to 3-4XL I think

[10:19]
@mcneely I didn’t make any decision based on what folks said he did. I made a decision that real people said they didn’t want to attend/speak if he was there

Jake Radakovich [10:21 AM]
joined #javascript

Paul McNeely [10:21 AM]
So, I won't speak or attend because or attend because all the nodevember staff will be there. You guys going to remove yourselves from the event? (edited)

William Golden [10:22 AM]
I’d love to :stuck_out_tongue:

Paul McNeely [10:22 AM]
That's way flawed logics.

William Golden [10:22 AM]
this shit sucks and is hard

Katye Russell [10:23 AM]
I certainly appreciate the conscientious thought and effort that @jasonmyers and @wgolden and the rest of the Nodevember team put into making sure it’s a conference that’s inclusive and comfortable for everyone.

Paul McNeely [10:23 AM]
Your pandering to a few people that probably would have never attended or spoken anyway.

Katye Russell [10:23 AM]
No, they’re not, actually.

[10:27]
It _*IS*_ possible to talk about programming concepts without explaining that folks who use built in tools are “kindergarteners” or to suggest that the only way to write solid code is to have “balls”.

Pablo Quesadilla [10:28 AM]
joined #javascript

Katye Russell [10:29 AM]
He doesn’t have to talk about programming in a less... _— oh, what’s the right word?  hurtful?  demeaning?  offensive? condescending? patronizing? unnecessarily gendered? _ — way, but it sure would make it easier for me to listen if he did.

Paul McNeely [10:30 AM]
@complikatyed If don't like how he presents his talk, then don't attend his talk.

Katye Russell [10:30 AM]
I didn’t last year, though I enjoyed the rest of the conference immensely.

Matt Trask [10:31 AM]
thats not a fair opinion if you pay 300+ for a conference and he is a keynote.

Katye Russell [10:31 AM]
The point is that by asking him to be there, Nodevember (and other conferences) tacitly endorse his way of speaking

Paul McNeely [10:32 AM]
@matthewtrask What about the people who payed 300+ and wanted to see his keynote?

joshmock [10:32 AM]
The problem with that is that other people who _aren't_ speaking up are going to not even want to attend the conference. We're already an industry that's disproportionally made up of straight white dudes. The Nodevember team is making a valiant effort to help move that needle back in the right direction by making sure that those non straight white dudes who might feel uncomfortable going to a tech event are going to be comfortable at Nodevember.

Katye Russell [10:32 AM]
By disinviting him, @wgolden and @jasonmyers are actively saying “this is not who we _(the conference organizers)_ are — this is not what we stand for" (edited)

[10:33]
@mcneely:  I’ll happily buy your ticket from you, if you’re disappointed enough to boycott the conference.

joshmock [10:33 AM]
also, if you're paying $300 just to see one person give a talk, I can pass you multiple youtube links to the same talk he's been giving for 2 years and you can save a lot of money.

Sam Scarsella [10:34 AM]
also that _this is not what we want Nashville’s tech community to become/keep being_ (if he is representative)

Jonathan Ray [10:35 AM]
I'm a "straight white dude" and have never approved of his generally condescending personality.

joshmock [10:35 AM]
ditto

Wes Mangum [10:35 AM]
The point is: non-white, non-man, and non-hetero programmers exist, and literally every other space in our field is implicitly catered to the majority. Moves like this are an effort to create spaces that minorities can be themselves in. (edited)

[10:37]
(yikes that could’ve sounded bad)

Katye Russell [10:38 AM]
And to create more spaces where “WE” gets expanded so there’s less “THEY”-ing (edited)

joshmock [10:38 AM]
clear enough for me @wes :smile:

Katye Russell [10:39 AM]
(not a knock on your comment, @wes — just an addition to it)

Pablo Quesadilla [10:41 AM]
I am offended that you crybabies get offended because someone is a little brash.

[10:41]
Mommy, my feelings are hurt.

[10:41]
Mommy, that white man is mean

Spencer Sharpe [10:42 AM]
@bigburrito I don’t find these comments productive.

Pablo Quesadilla [10:42 AM]
Mommy, that white man talks to me in a weird tone.

Sam Scarsella [10:42 AM]
As a fairly recent arrival to Nashville, I’m completely blown away by the tech community here. So supportive and energetic. From Hackathons to meetups… it’s so cool to be in a place where people give a shit about what they do and want to get better, not to mention want to _make everyone else better too_. This is just a necessary part of that.

Pablo Quesadilla [10:42 AM]
@jspencersharpe  got eat a burrito

[10:42]
even better suck on my burrito

Joe Kane [10:42 AM]
`troll alert`

Sam Scarsella [10:42 AM]
and banned.

Pablo Quesadilla [10:42 AM]
yall are a bunch of crybabies

Jonathan Ray [10:42 AM]
This just got weird

Spencer Sharpe [10:43 AM]
@bigburrito http://nashjs.org/about

joshmock [10:43 AM]
@bigburrito that's exactly the kind of language that is making people feel uncomfortable, and is actually a violation of this Slack network's code of conduct.

gregmkorte [10:43 AM]
joined #javascript

Pablo Quesadilla [10:43 AM]
they are words

Carter Harris [10:43 AM]
joined #javascript

Pablo Quesadilla [10:44 AM]
sorry words make you feel weak

Russ Anderson [10:44 AM]
dude the whole sticks and stones thing that children say is not a reflection on reality

[10:45]
words make you feel weak as well. Words like accountable, gracious, empathetic.

Pablo Quesadilla [10:45 AM]
i got two stones between my legs

Wes Mangum [10:45 AM]
Please do not feed the troll until admins can take care of it

Pablo Quesadilla [10:45 AM]
left #javascript

Russ Anderson [10:45 AM]
yeah sorry

Wes Mangum [10:46 AM]
No worries :heart:

Russ Anderson [10:46 AM]
sad too because I actually really like burritos

[10:47]
and quesadillas

Sam Scarsella [10:47 AM]
Guys, I don't think ‘Pablo Quesadilla’ is even his real name

Wes Mangum [10:47 AM]
WHAT

Russ Anderson [10:47 AM]
really a lot of varieties of Mexican Food

Jason Orendorff [10:47 AM]
I kicked @bigburrito from this channel for code of conduct violations

Katye Russell [10:48 AM]
Thanks @jorendorff  — I love this space!

Jason Orendorff [10:48 AM]
Probably a troll account; I don't remember seeing the nick before (edited)

Wes Mangum [10:48 AM]
Thank you @jorendorff, it’s appreciated :slightly_smiling_face:

William Golden [10:49 AM]
Thanks Jason, im driving can't follow along just yet (red light) (edited)

Andrew Albright [10:49 AM]
Considering the fact that he/she misspelled Quesadilla, I had a feeling they don't have respect for Mexican food

[10:49]
Those comments confirmed my fear

joshmock [10:49 AM]
I feel like I'd seen that account in here a bit the past few weeks, but no matter.

HermitPy [10:50 AM]
joined #javascript

HermitPy [10:50 AM]
disabled that account (but they'll be back I'm sure)

charliemac [10:50 AM]
I’m hungry now

Russ Anderson [10:50 AM]
I do feel like we’ve all bonded over that whole thing though

William Golden [10:50 AM]
Jason Myers i'll disable the auto invite until all the stuff calms down

Russ Anderson [10:50 AM]
I feel closer to you all, at least

William Golden [10:50 AM]
Won't be back into the office for another hour or so though

HermitPy [10:51 AM]
left #javascript

Sam Scarsella [10:51 AM]
@charliemac: I think I’m _hangry_.