[9:23pm] ChanServ: [#bwf] The official channel for Better With Forge (BWF). Feel free to ping Andrew2448 at any time for help
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[9:34pm] Noir: <crickets>
[9:35pm] Andrew2448: you can feel free to leave
[9:35pm] Noir: I'm just wondering why nobody wants to talk about it?
[9:35pm] Andrew2448: well i know exactly who you are
[9:36pm] Andrew2448: i watch #btw you know
[9:36pm] Andrew2448: so you can feel free to escort yourself out
[9:38pm] Noir: I'll just wait. A two line ban would be the most amusing thing I've seen all day, though with this I suppose it would be three.
[9:38pm] Andrew2448: I have no reason to ban you
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[9:39pm] Andrew2448: only if you start acting as ridiculous as he who you love
[9:39pm] Noir: Care to explain the "escort yourself out" in that case? I'm curious as to what reason I would have to want to leave.
[9:39pm] Andrew2448: By your actions and words in #btw, you clearly have no desire to support BWF or look forward to the future success of BWF
[9:40pm] Andrew2448: If you want to sit here and spy on BWF then feel free, but you wont figure out much
[9:40pm] Andrew2448: We dont do our real discussions in public irc channels
[9:41pm] Noir: Does that mean I'm here to stir up trouble by default? I'm just here to observe and chime in when something catches my interest; I've got no desire to cause a ruckus.
[9:41pm] Andrew2448: Then fair enough, and I hope it stays like that for both sides
[9:42pm] Andrew2448: Which, when minecraft modding is involved, it normally doesn't.
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[9:43pm] Noir: Were you watching on wednesday?
[9:43pm] Noir: You should know by now, that line has already been crossed and trampled.
[9:43pm] Andrew2448: I only watched during both trollfests
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[9:44pm] Andrew2448: those filled with drunken statements and ridiculous accusations
[9:44pm] Noir: Definite "trollfest"
[9:44pm] Noir: define*
[9:44pm] Andrew2448: monday night: FC runs into #minecraft forge and insults everyone, and last night, same thing again but instead directed again slowpoke
[9:44pm] Andrew2448: against*
[9:45pm] Noir: You're not being very transparent in this issue, are you now?
[9:45pm] Andrew2448: I try to keep an unbiased view on it.
[9:45pm] Andrew2448: But when FC refuses to even acknowledge the statement of the other side it kinda bothers me
[9:45pm] Noir: Let me ask you something, what do you cherish most in your life, that is of things you have made?
[9:46pm] Andrew2448: You could say as much
[9:47pm] Noir: But what is it?
[9:47pm] Andrew2448: I have no problem with his desire for BWF to not exist, nor even for his desire to stay away from forge. It is his actions against others that bother me
[9:47pm] Andrew2448: It would help his cause a lot if he were to havent his arguments while sober
[9:47pm] Noir: Do you understand the concept of consequence?
[9:48pm] Andrew2448: Depends on the situation
[9:48pm] Noir: As a general term, what does it mean to you?
[9:49pm] Andrew2448: Punishment or bad happening caused by the actions of wrongdoing
[9:49pm] Noir: In that case, from where I stand, I see an action made by forge, and it's subsequent consequence coming from FC.
[9:49pm] Andrew2448: I do hope you realize that the forge team has nothing to do with BWF
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[9:49pm] TheDrunkenHobo: Now now...
[9:50pm] Andrew2448: TheDrunkenHobo: we are having a civilized conversation, dont ruin it
[9:50pm] Noir: I'd like to ask why it is called "better with forge" if the forge team has nothing to do with it?
[9:50pm] TheDrunkenHobo: Righto.
[9:50pm] Andrew2448: It was a play at the name at BTW
[9:50pm] Andrew2448: a piece of amusement by its author
[9:50pm] You were granted voice by Andrew2448.
[9:50pm] Andrew2448 made this room moderated for normal users.
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[9:51pm] Noir: So I'd like to ask you another question, in terms of morality, do you not find it wrong to take from someone that which they cherish more than anything else in life?
[9:52pm] Andrew2448: He is not taking it from him. FC still has full possesion. He is simply adapting the ideas to another standard
[9:52pm] Noir: And going back to similar questions, what does it mean to when someone "takes" something?
[9:53pm] Andrew2448: Removes from the possesion of another
[9:55pm] Noir: Then I suppose you would be right, at least in your understanding; however, I see this far differently. I see this as an act of totalitarianism. As so many have phrased it "it's your way or the highway" FC did not receive a choice, in any form or fashion. I find that not only intrusive and upsetting, but outright disturbing.
[9:55pm] Andrew2448: That is quite true
[9:55pm] Andrew2448: No one with sense will deny it
[9:55pm] Andrew2448: But, as I have stated before
[9:56pm] Andrew2448: if FC were to formulate a sensible argument rather than throwing cuss words at everyone and insulting them 24/7, then I myself would stop supporting BWF
[9:56pm] Andrew2448: as would many others
[9:56pm] Noir: Then shall I be the one to stop the fire here?
[9:56pm] Andrew2448: To most people, the problem people have with BTW is FC himself
[9:57pm] Andrew2448: Maybe you should become his spokesperson
[9:57pm] Andrew2448: Because so long as he continues to act as he does now, he will not rejoin those who have left
[9:58pm] Noir: Who in specific are you referring to?
[9:58pm] Andrew2448: oops, change rejoin to regain
[9:58pm] Andrew2448: and the he is FC
[9:58pm] Noir: "he will not regain those who have left"
[9:59pm] Noir: My question is "who" not "he"
[9:59pm] Andrew2448: The people who at one time supported him but then began to instead support the BWF project
[9:59pm] Noir: Care to form a list?
[9:59pm] Andrew2448: I would rather not
[9:59pm] Andrew2448: That would take quite a while
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[10:00pm] Noir: Then in that case, I feel we've hit a bit of a dead point in this arc of conversation, so let me ask another question: How do you see the BTW community in all of this?
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[10:01pm] Andrew2448: The majority of them come off as "religious zealots" so to say, who will believe in anything that FC says
[10:01pm] Andrew2448: not all, but a lot do
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[10:03pm] Noir: I'd like to know where you get that from, what makes you think we are some sort of cult group?
[10:03pm] Andrew2448: It is common word among places outside of BTW, you could ask others if you would like
[10:03pm] Andrew2448: especially those who act like he is "kicking ass" in his trollfests in #mineforge
[10:04pm] Noir: That is, to put it lightly, a gross misconception.
[10:04pm] Andrew2448: Btw to all the non-voices in here, this channel is +m, she cant see what you are saying
[10:04pm] Andrew2448: I wouldnt doubt it
[10:05pm] Pichugames is now known as Pichugames[A].
[10:05pm] Andrew2448: There is a reason I'm not letting the rest of you talk. You simply fight with anger and thats not how dicussions roll along nicely
[10:06pm] Noir: For the most part in the BTW community, people respect FC, people understand where he comes from, and people connect with him. As a result it would only be natural that there would be those who want to "take a side." Though I would like to have it be known that there are a large many people in the BTW community that take no issue with forge itself, this being the largest exception.
[10:06pm] Andrew2448: That i could quite understand as well
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[10:07pm] Noir: One of the operators in the BTW irc is a fan of both BTW and of many forge mods.
[10:07pm] Andrew2448: Phrost shut up, she cant see what you are saying
[10:07pm] Andrew2448: As are many people
[10:07pm] Pichugames[A] is now known as Pichugames.
[10:08pm] Andrew2448: which is simply why most people want them to work together
[10:09pm] Noir: I can understand that, in fact to some extent I would agree with it, though knowing it is hindering FC in his endeavors, I cannot simply sit and nod my head in agreement.
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[10:09pm] Andrew2448: I myself don't see how it hinders his endeavors in any way.
[10:10pm] Andrew2448: Please explain
[10:10pm] Noir: I'd like to direct you to this thread http://sargunster.com/btwforum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6433&start=150
[10:11pm] Noir: http://puu.sh/1BoNn and more specifically this post.
[10:12pm] Andrew2448: He could have simply ignored it all along and nothing negative would have come to either himself or BTW
[10:12pm] Andrew2448: But instead he decided to declare a "war" which cant be won by either side
[10:13pm] Andrew2448: No matter what either side does or says, they cant stop the other side from developing their mod
[10:13pm] Andrew2448: And because there are no broken laws or such, this can never be truly ended
[10:13pm] Noir: I'd like to bring up an earlier point I made about that which is cherished above all else in life, and what it would feel like to have it being snatched up, copied, mutilated, or whatever you wish to call this.
[10:13pm] Noir: Would you be willing to take it on the chin?
[10:14pm] Andrew2448: Who knows, it has never happened to me
[10:14pm] Noir: Then why do you feel the right to pass judgement?
[10:14pm] Andrew2448: How can you agree with it if it has never happened. You have no idea how you would feel so you take neither side
[10:16pm] Noir: But you've obviously taken a side, and things are not cut and dry black and white, there are more sides than just "stop making bwf" and "stop trying to make people stop making bwf"
[10:16pm] Andrew2448: and what are these other sides?
[10:18pm] Noir: People like myself, people who wish for both sides to find an equal opportunity resolution, make a mechanical automation mod like BTW in forge, it would be great for the community, but don't try to leech off of one that is already developed and in its final stages.
[10:18pm] Andrew2448: That has been attempted multiple times. (BTB) Each time though, FC has refused to do such things.
[10:19pm] Andrew2448: For some unknown reason, he has a vehement anger against forge that most of us dont understand
[10:19pm] Noir: Better than buildcraft was better than wolves.
[10:20pm] Noir: Better than wolves was originally a forgemod.
[10:20pm] Andrew2448: <Noir> I'm already doing something stupid
[10:20pm] Andrew2448:  <Noir> It's something I'm passionate about though so fuck it
[10:20pm] Andrew2448: if you dont want to do this, then you dont need to
[10:21pm] Andrew2448: I feel that we are actually having a civilized conversation for once
[10:21pm] Noir: I do want to do it, otherwise I wouldn't be here.
[10:21pm] Andrew2448: And back to the point, yes indeed BTW was a forgemod
[10:21pm] Andrew2448: and for reasons that everyone I have talked to doesnt find valid, FC decided to remove forge compatiblity
[10:22pm] Noir: I'm here of my own accord, and with that said there is a very long history behind why FC is so spiteful towards the forge community.
[10:22pm] Andrew2448: Has he been public about it
[10:22pm] Andrew2448: The "real" reason why
[10:22pm] Noir: Then what is your point here, do you find that to be so obsurd?
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[10:24pm] Andrew2448: Why did he remove compatiblity? what is so bad about forge?
[10:24pm] Andrew2448: hundreds of other mods seem to think it has the right idea, so whats wrong with it?
[10:24pm] Noir: Nothing is bad about forge, and you didn't bother to correct me either, FC is, in fact, not hateful towards forge as a whole.
[10:24pm] Andrew2448: If both sides want a middle ground compatibility, then why doesnt FC go back to forge?
[10:25pm] Andrew2448: Because you cant go the other way around
[10:25pm] Andrew2448: Forge is willing to work with Fc, but not vice versa
[10:25pm] Noir: I'll play devils advocate on this one, why would an abused child go back to their abusive parent?
[10:25pm] Andrew2448: an abused child...are you kidding me?
[10:25pm] Andrew2448: FC is in no way an abused child
[10:25pm] TheAJGman: lol
[10:25pm] Andrew2448: he was mad that elo was adding things to forge that only she wanted, and so he quit
[10:26pm] Andrew2448: if anything, he was a teenager mid puberty that cant control his actions
[10:26pm] Andrew2448: and eventually, those teenagers grow up
[10:26pm] Noir: Or maybe just someone who wanted to have something of their own independent of the actions of others.
[10:27pm] ezekielelin was granted voice by MineBot.
[10:27pm] Andrew2448: "people who wish for both sides to find an equal opportunity resolution, make a mechanical automation mod like BTW in forge, it would be great for the community, but don't try to leech off of one that is already developed and in its final stages."
[10:27pm] Andrew2448: if everyone wants a middle ground
[10:27pm] Noir: Don't get BTW involved in it then
[10:27pm] Andrew2448: then why are you supporting FC when he refuses to do so
[10:28pm] Noir:  make a mechanical automation mod like BTW in forge, it would be great for the community, but don't try to leech off of one that is already developed and in its final stages.
[10:28pm] Noir: like ≠ the same as
[10:28pm] Noir: He doesn't need to have any involvement in it
[10:28pm] Andrew2448: But everyone wants BTW, not some mod with a similar idea
[10:29pm] Andrew2448: No he sure doesnt
[10:29pm] Noir: Then they should play BTW
[10:29pm] Andrew2448: which returns to my point of how he should have just ignored it in the first place and both side live happily ever after
[10:29pm] Andrew2448: But they want both
[10:29pm] Andrew2448: Forge mods AND BTW
[10:29pm] Andrew2448: because thats what they find most fun
[10:29pm] Andrew2448: and so why should they be denied this?
[10:29pm] Noir: So you're now the spoiled child who takes what he wants despite being told no.
[10:30pm] Andrew2448: If you insist then sure
[10:30pm] Andrew2448: Saying that wont change anything
[10:30pm] Noir: Because they should respect the wishes of others, it's morally reprehensible not to.
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[10:31pm] Andrew2448: Wouldnt you say its also morally wrong to hold that which would be simple to release?
[10:32pm] Noir: Not in the slightest.
[10:32pm] Andrew2448: Makeing everyone angry because its "yours" and you dont want to share it with others
[10:32pm] Andrew2448: When then there is the definite seperation between the forge and BTW communities
[10:32pm] Andrew2448: Well*
[10:33pm] Noir: I've heard what I came here to hear, I'll escorting myself out now.
[10:33pm] Andrew2448: And it makes conversations like this pointless, because both people are definitely not going to change the viewpoints of others
[10:33pm] Andrew2448: As have I
[10:33pm] Noir: It was refreshing to have a civil conversation rather than what has become the norm, and I thank you.
[10:34pm] Andrew2448: Same to you
[10:34pm] TheAJGman: likewise
[10:34pm] Noir: Good night.
[10:34pm] You left the room.