Psychonauts' Reading Club 6/24 Discussion Log

[19:32] <ipanman92> so, should we just start with circuit 1 and go from there?
[19:32] <dprzilk> yeah that's fine with me
[19:32] <ipanman92> ok
[19:32] <Hachiiiko> we could, but can I ask you guys first whether you liked it?
[19:32] <Hachiiiko> or are liking it
[19:32] <dprzilk> i'm loving it
[19:32] <ipanman92> yeah i really liked it
[19:32] <dprzilk> you?
[19:32] <Hachiiiko> I hated it at first
[19:33] <Hachiiiko> felt like my mind was being raped
[19:33] <dprzilk> ha
[19:33] <ipanman92> haha
[19:33] <Hachiiiko> I'm not really a psychonaut, haven't used any psychedelics, haven't gone in depth with this stuff
[19:33] <Hachiiiko> so it was a bit intense
[19:33] <Hachiiiko> haha
[19:34] <Hachiiiko> it was a lot of new information and I think the warning before the first chapter is VERY TRUE
[19:34] <ipanman92> oh yeah, i don't think i would have understood this book to the level i did if i had not taken psychedelics previously
[19:34] <ipanman92> especially the last few chapters
[19:35] <ipanman92> it kind of gave me something to realte to when reading
[19:35] <dprzilk> i think it has just put me in the right mindset
[19:35] <dprzilk> idk about the last few chapters tho
[19:36] <Hachiiiko> yeah, I fully understand the words and what he is saying, but only in a very.... "flat" sense I guess
[19:37] <dprzilk> well, do you guys have anything to say about the first circuit?
[19:37] <dprzilk> that one's pretty straight forward i guess
[19:37] <ipanman92> I like how he starts the book by saying "what the thinker thinks, the prover proves", it really sets up the mindset of the rest of the book
[19:37] <Hachiiiko> yeah, definitely
[19:38] <dprzilk> i did like how he said we need to exercise them
[19:38] <dprzilk> each circuit i mean
[19:38] <dprzilk> exercise the first by playing with oneself, others, the environment..
[19:39] <ipanman92> haha yeah
[19:39] <ipanman92> i think it lets you become way more aware of these different circuits that your mind uses
[19:39] <dprzilk> yeah
[19:41] <ipanman92> oh and that "what the thinker thinks, the prover proves" idea is called Confirmation Bias in social psychology
[19:41] <dprzilk> oh okay
[19:41] <dprzilk> i've heard that before but i didn't connect the two
[19:41] <Hachiiiko> same here
[19:42] <Hachiiiko> (I'm a tiny bit absent, have some stuff to take care of, 5 minutes tops)
[19:42] <dprzilk> sure
[19:43] <ipanman92> So what do you guys think is your "dominant" circuit?
[19:43] <dprzilk> mostly 3, partly 1
[19:43] <dprzilk> you?
[19:43] <ipanman92> id go with 3 also
[19:44] <ipanman92> especially when i was in high school
[19:44] <ipanman92> i think it's become a little more flexible since then, but still mainly circuit 3
[19:44] <dprzilk> oh yeah same
[19:45] <Hachiiiko> I think I'm fully in 3. Starting to understand the higher levels and feel comfortable with them, but I don't believe I'm experiencing the neurogenetic level and higher
[19:47] <ipanman92> well i think the fact that you can be accepting of 5th and above circuit ideas implies somewhat that you are not just the "dogmatic rationalist" that the author describes as circuit 3 people in the book
[19:47] <dprzilk> right
[19:47] <Hachiiiko> hmm
[19:47] <Hachiiiko> good point
[19:47] <ipanman92> so give yourself more credit :)
[19:47] <dprzilk> honestly only lately i've begun to see outside that rationalist view
[19:48] <Hachiiiko> yup, same here
[19:48] <dprzilk> it's so liberating
[19:48] <dprzilk> being open to spirituality
[19:48] <Hachiiiko> but I've been "liberated" from the fourth one for a very long time
[19:49] <ipanman92> i dont think i fully understood the 4th circuit in the book. Is it simply a sexuality/reproduction thing?
[19:49] <dprzilk> parental?
[19:49] <dprzilk> here's this
[19:49] <dprzilk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness
[19:49] <dprzilk> Timothy Leary's
[19:50] <dprzilk> for a quick reference
[19:50] <ipanman92> cool thanks
[19:50] <ipanman92> oooh right i remember now
[19:51] <Hachiiiko> I mean, I've felt that "morality" is pretty much an illusion
[19:51] <ipanman92> how he said that while every society has different morals towards sex, every society does indeed have morals regarding sex
[19:51] <dprzilk> mhm
[19:51] <ipanman92> yeah i agree
[19:52] <ipanman92> im still not sure i see it as a part of the brain
[19:52] <Hachiiiko> could you elaborate on that?
[19:52] <Hachiiiko> what do you mean exactly?
[19:52] <dprzilk> i don't know much about the parts of the brain
[19:52] <ipanman92> just societal rules to produce offspring that can properly "function in that society
[19:53] <dprzilk> but they are created without fail
[19:53] <dprzilk> remember about how every tribe has at least 1 taboo
[19:53] <ipanman92> sorry, i just meant i dont fully understand it as being one of the "circuits"
[19:53] <ipanman92> right
[19:54] <ipanman92> ok so the people in the tribes who create these taboos are primarily tuned to circuit 4?
[19:55] <Hachiiiko> imagine a Christian pastor telling everyone that sodomy is bad, that they should repent
[19:55] <dprzilk> i think the idea is that shamans do
[19:55] <Hachiiiko> that's mainly fourth circuit
[19:56] <dprzilk> a fourth-circuit taboo
[19:56] <ipanman92> ok, i think i just worked it out in my own head haha
[19:57] <Hachiiiko> it's one of those books you don't entirely get the first time you read it anyway
[19:57] <Hachiiiko> I'm pretty sure I'm going to re-read this a lot of times in my life, and I'm positive I'll learn something new everytime I do
[19:57] <ipanman92> true
[19:57] <dprzilk> yeah i think so too
[19:57] <dprzilk> here's a quote that i made a reference  to
[19:57] <dprzilk> about taboo
[19:57] <dprzilk> 'Amid all these unknowns—of sexual attraction, mating reproduction, inheritance, genetic drift, future evolution—the shamans of every tribe try to establish guide-posts to tribal (gene-pool) survival. Thus "morality" is invented.'
[19:59] <dprzilk> i've traditionally seen morality as a lie
[19:59] <dprzilk> but it's basically a tool
[19:59] <dprzilk> an evolutionary tool
[19:59] <ipanman92> right, the shaman creates the taboos in order to continue the existence of the tribe, and then these taboos are regarded as "right and wrong"
[19:59] <dprzilk> yeah
[19:59] <Hachiiiko> yeah, that was a "woahh dude" moment for me to
[19:59] <ipanman92> cool
[19:59] <Hachiiiko> too*
[20:00] <Hachiiiko> but also for the lower levels
[20:01] <Hachiiiko> it never really (consciously) struck me that these "games" we play in our societies, are really (now redundant) evolutionary methods of survival
[20:01] <dprzilk> yeahhh
[20:01] <dprzilk> exactly
[20:01] <ipanman92> exactly
[20:01] <dprzilk> ha
[20:01] <ipanman92> haha
[20:02] <Hachiiiko> nice synchronicity there guys
[20:02] <dprzilk> does it make you want to continue playing them, knowing what they are?
[20:02] <dprzilk> or avoid them
[20:02] <ipanman92> that really struck me the second time i took acid, how many things we do as a species are all just primitive "games", as morbid as they may be
[20:03] <Hachiiiko> I've come to realize that too
[20:03] <Hachiiiko> quite a few years ago actually
[20:03] <Hachiiiko> and I've always wanted to step back and refuse to play the games
[20:03] <dprzilk> yeahh
[20:03] <ipanman92> right
[20:04] <dprzilk> i've never understood them at quite this level though
[20:04] <Hachiiiko> but now that I become more acquainted with the games, (understand them at this level, exactly), I'm actually more keen on playing
[20:04] <Hachiiiko> because, you know, it's fun
[20:04] <dprzilk> ha right
[20:04] <Hachiiiko> I can now, literally, PLAY
[20:04] <ipanman92> just enjoy it haha
[20:04] <dprzilk> hahaha
[20:04] <Hachiiiko> I'm not conforming, I'm not becoming a robot, I'm just PLAYING
[20:04] <Hachiiiko> and no one has to know
[20:05] <dprzilk> haha yeah
[20:05] <ipanman92> well now we know
[20:05] <ipanman92> and the gig is up
[20:05] <Hachiiiko> it's a pretty good feeling
[20:05] <Hachiiiko> haha yeah
[20:05] <dprzilk> makes me wonder though, what kind of games we could be playing if everyone could just give up on the old games
[20:05] <Hachiiiko> woahh
[20:06] <dprzilk> hopefully that's where we're headed
[20:06] <Hachiiiko> I'm not entirely buying the Utopia in our lifetimes though
[20:06] <dprzilk> yeah same
[20:06] <ipanman92> yeah, i agree with you there
[20:06] <dprzilk> especially if something crazy doesn't happen this year
[20:06] <dprzilk> 2012!
[20:06] <Hachiiiko> -_-
[20:06] <Hachiiiko> haha
[20:07] <ipanman92> whenever someone predicts things in the future, they usually predict it to happen in their lifetime
[20:07] <dprzilk> yeah
[20:08] <Hachiiiko> RAW said himself that this is what he chooses to believe because it's more fun
[20:08] <Hachiiiko> can't blame him, really
[20:08] <ipanman92> near the endof the book he makes a lot of predictions
[20:08] <dprzilk> oh really?
[20:08] <Hachiiiko> yeah, the final chapter is prediction mania
[20:08] <dprzilk> i'm excited
[20:09] <ipanman92>  he preicted that in 2004, "every type of genetic engineering should be  as routine as electronic engineering"
[20:09] <Hachiiiko> haha, yeah
[20:09] <Hachiiiko> and that by now, we should have life extension pills in all the grocery stores
[20:09] <ipanman92> yeah
[20:10] <ipanman92> so im gonna take all his predictions with a grain of salt
[20:10] <dprzilk> that seems really generous considering that it was publish in 83
[20:10] <dprzilk> published
[20:10] <ipanman92> or just see them as very likely futures, without trying to predict exactly when theywill happen
[20:11] <Hachiiiko> I think it really all boils down to him actively choosing to believe that this stuff will happen, and soon
[20:11] <ipanman92> true
[20:12] <dprzilk> yeah
[20:12] <ipanman92> he's just being optomistic
[20:12] <Hachiiiko> I'm convinced by the general direction, I just don't see us shaking the generation-problem
[20:12] <ipanman92> "having fun"
[20:12] <Hachiiiko> there's too many Newt Gingriches on this planet and they'll die before they change their mind
[20:12] <Hachiiiko> and they're getting older too :(
[20:14] <Hachiiiko> maybe it's time for us to spike the tapwater with acid
[20:14] <Hachiiiko> ( say hi to the CIA-agent that just joined our convo )
[20:14] <ipanman92> HI!
[20:15] <ipanman92> but yeah, it seems like hummans are too stubborn to be moved from their own "reality tunnels" at this point
[20:15] <dprzilk> hahaha
[20:15] <ipanman92> thus needing a whole new generatio to get the ball rolling again
[20:16] <dprzilk> yep
[20:16] <Hachiiiko> yeah, but our generation has so many of them as well!
[20:16] <Hachiiiko> the vast vast vast majority of them still
[20:16] <ipanman92> then again like RAW said, that perspective of humanity will itself seem conservative some time in the future
[20:17] <Hachiiiko> perhaps, I hope so
[20:17] <dprzilk> i think i didn't read that yet?
[20:17] <dprzilk> what does he mean
[20:18] <ipanman92> he basically means that ideas tht seem liberal and outlandish now will one day be viewed as conservative by the vast majority
[20:18] <dprzilk> ohhhh okay
[20:18] <Hachiiiko> also, the idea itself, that we need a generation to die out for the next quantum leap in human consciousness to occur, will be an archaic concept
[20:19] <dprzilk> evolution will be much faster paced?
[20:20] <Hachiiiko> not sure if it's literally evolution, but he says that human intelligence is doubling at an exponential rate
[20:20] <ipanman92> right, he just talks about "intelligence"
[20:20] <dprzilk> yeah not scrictly biological evolution
[20:21] <Hachiiiko> it took billions of years for the second circuit to "begin", then hundreds of thousands for the third one, then a few centuries for the fourth, and only a hundred years for the fifth, etc.
[20:21] <Hachiiiko> we need less and less time, to gain more and more "intelligence"
[20:21] <ipanman92> the speed at which it is happening is increasing exponentially
[20:21] <Hachiiiko> exactly
[20:21] <dprzilk> yeahh
[20:22] <Hachiiiko> makes sense, snowball effect and all
[20:22] <ipanman92> i like to think of it in terms of the fibonnacci spiral
[20:22] <dprzilk> yeah population growth
[20:23] <ipanman92> the next number is increased exponentially more than the previous number increase
[20:23] <Hachiiiko> I don't think I'm familiar with it enough to assess whether it applies, haha
[20:25] <ipanman92> yeah im not sure whether it applies EXACTLY, but i think the basic concept is the same
[20:25] <Hachiiiko> true
[20:26] <dprzilk> mhm
[20:26] <ipanman92> exponential growth, encompassing a greater amount of intelligence or space-time
[20:27] <Hachiiiko> guys, I'm gonna call it a night already
[20:27] <Hachiiiko> it's 2:27 am here
[20:27] <ipanman92> oh damn
[20:27] <Hachiiiko> I'm definitely showing up for the second discussion, hope there will be some more people
[20:27] <ipanman92> i keep forgetting not everyone on the internet lives in the US haha
[20:27] <dprzilk> is that tomorrow?
[20:27] <dprzilk> exactly ipanman
[20:27] <Hachiiiko> I think someone suggested thursday?
[20:27] <Hachiiiko> definitely not tomorrow though
[20:28] <Hachiiiko> sometimes I forget I don't live in the US
[20:28] <Hachiiiko> haha
[20:28] <dprzilk> hahahaha
[20:28] <ipanman92> haha
[20:28] <Hachiiiko> follow the news and politics of the US at least as much as I follow Dutch news and politics
[20:29] <dprzilk> oh wow
[20:29] <ipanman92> im curious, how do US politics seem to someone not living here?
[20:29] <Hachiiiko> it's ridiculous
[20:30] <ipanman92> haha yeah
[20:30] <dprzilk> hahaha
[20:30] <dprzilk> it is
[20:30] <Hachiiiko> it's very obvious how the two party system is limiting your choices enormously
[20:30] <Hachiiiko> and then the Republican delegates, my goodness
[20:31] <Hachiiiko> and a lot of democrats too, for that matter
[20:31] <ipanman92> at this point it just feels like a goddam circus
[20:31] <dprzilk> it really is
[20:31] <dprzilk> i can't stand it
[20:31] <ipanman92> so i cant even imagine what it must look like to an outsider
[20:32] <dprzilk> how do Dutch politics compare?
[20:32] <Hachiiiko> but then again, we decriminalized cannabis in the '70s and most people still think it kills ya
[20:32] <dprzilk> hahahaha
[20:32] <ipanman92> haha yes
[20:33] <Hachiiiko> the public isn't interested in cannabis, because it's kind of a non-issue here
[20:34] <Hachiiiko> so all the new knowledge (relative safety, etc.) isn't being distributed by anyone
[20:34] <dprzilk> oh interesting
[20:34] <dprzilk> is there a social stigma
[20:34] <dprzilk> to using it?
[20:34] <Hachiiiko> yes, very much so
[20:34] <dprzilk> relative to alcohol?
[20:34] <Hachiiiko> nope
[20:35] <Hachiiiko> alcohol is a-ok
[20:35] <dprzilk> shittt
[20:35] <ipanman92> damn
[20:35] <Hachiiiko> yup
[20:35] <Hachiiiko> we get to drink at 16 too, legally
[20:35] <dprzilk> what about cannabis?
[20:35] <Hachiiiko> drunk 14 year olds don't get arrested or anything
[20:35] <Hachiiiko> cannabis is from 18 years I think
[20:36] <Hachiiiko> but some coffeeshops say you have to be 21
[20:36] <Hachiiiko> never had an issue though, and I'm 20 now
[20:37] <ipanman92> well im jealous of the drinking age haha
[20:37] <Hachiiiko> but to get back to our entire political system: it's better, it's more fair, but we have our fair share of stupid people too and hence the "wrong" parties are in the majority
[20:37] <Hachiiiko> yeah, that's pretty chill
[20:37] <Hachiiiko> but it's sending the wrong message in my opinion
[20:38] <Hachiiiko> I'm not sure actually
[20:39] <Hachiiiko> we don't have teens binge drinking themselves to death as much as the UK or Scandinavia, the public is very well informed about the dangers of alcohol
[20:39] <ipanman92> i think the idea of having a specific age where it becomes ok to do something causes more problems
[20:39] <Hachiiiko> hmm, good point
[20:39] <Hachiiiko> but what else, you know?
[20:40] <ipanman92> yeah true
[20:40] <dprzilk> yeah..
[20:40] <Hachiiiko> the thing that sucks about drugs in the Netherlands
[20:40] <Hachiiiko> there's a VERY WELL informed minority
[20:41] <Hachiiiko> you can get your xtc, mdma, ketamine, ghb, pretty much anything checked legally, by government labs
[20:41] <Hachiiiko> you give them one pill, they send you a letter one week later exactly what is in it
[20:41] <Hachiiiko> it's amazing
[20:41] <ipanman92> oh wow
[20:41] <Hachiiiko> and then the other 98% of the people think an xtc pill will kill you, without fail
[20:41] <Hachiiiko> it's retarded
[20:42] <ipanman92> that actually seems like a much better system
[20:42] <ipanman92> on the governemt's part
[20:42] <ipanman92> keeping people safe without removing civil lierties
[20:42] <Hachiiiko> yeah, not sure if it is actually the government itself, or government sanctioned
[20:42] <ipanman92> ah ok
[20:42] <dprzilk> either way that's definitely good
[20:42] <dprzilk> i want to try so many things but i'm very prudent
[20:43] <Hachiiiko> well, that's very understandable
[20:43] <Hachiiiko> a friend of mine said: "Maybe I'm gonna try xtc tonight, a friend has a pill for me."
[20:44] <Hachiiiko> I said: "What do you know about xtc."
[20:44] <Hachiiiko> he knew nothing whatsoever
[20:44] <Hachiiiko> that's incredibly disappointing
[20:44] <Hachiiiko> please be prudent
[20:44] <ipanman92> yeah you gotta do some research before you put anything in your body
[20:44] <dprzilk> haha jeez
[20:44] <Hachiiiko> read all the info you can read about something before you use it
[20:45] <ipanman92> exactly
[20:45] <dprzilk> yeah
[20:46] <Hachiiiko> okay, I'm leaving for real now, haha
[20:46] <dprzilk> alright. i'm off too
[20:46] <dprzilk> it's been good guys
[20:46] <ipanman92> indeed
[20:46] <Hachiiiko> it was a little different, but then again, the book had so much more information to process than DoP
[20:47] <Hachiiiko> oh, a question!
[20:47] <Hachiiiko> I was thinking
[20:47] <Hachiiiko> about the selection of future books
[20:48] <Hachiiiko> I'd really like to read books that are not about psychonautical subjects per se, but classic fiction that poses interesting questions
[20:48] <Hachiiiko> but then I thought
[20:49] <Hachiiiko> maybe it's nicer to read some informative books first
[20:49] <Hachiiiko> so we have some common ground
[20:49] <Hachiiiko> so we can say: "Like what RAW mentioned about the sixth circuit"
[20:49] <Hachiiiko> instead of "Like it makes you like, feel, what other people are doing, even when you're not there, you know?"
[20:50] <ipanman92> haha yeah
[20:50] <ipanman92> there should be some books that set up the base for the other books we read
[20:50] == dprzilk [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[20:51] <ipanman92> i think it would actually be really good to read like the older "religious" books first, like Siddhartha and Tibetan Book of Life and Death
[20:51] <ipanman92> because al other books reference those havily
[20:52] <Hachiiiko> yeah, and I read somewhere that OP-spaceman is studying religion
[20:52] <Hachiiiko> and really into old religious texts
[20:52] <Hachiiiko> so I'm sure he'd like it if we can relate to that a little
[20:53] <Hachiiiko> I read Timothy Leary's 'The Psychedelic Experience' and that's a great read
[20:53] <Hachiiiko> it puts the Tibetan Book of Life and Death into a psychonautic perspective
[20:53] <ipanman92> oh yeah? i haven't gotten to reading any of Timothy Leary's work yet
[20:53] <ipanman92> oh awesome
[20:54] <ipanman92> well I guess we should try to ask OP Spaceman about it later
[20:54] <ipanman92> the order of the books i mena
[20:54] <ipanman92> *mean
[20:55] <Hachiiiko> yeah, I'm sure he'll make another post and we'll get to comment and discuss
[20:55] <ipanman92> cool cool
[20:55] <ipanman92> well i'll let you go to sleep
[20:55] <ipanman92> haha
[20:55] <Hachiiiko> although I wouldn't mind if we just went for the classics first
[20:55] <Hachiiiko> haha, my sis is watching a movie right next to me, so no hurry
[20:55] <ipanman92> yeah i would definitely prefer that
[20:55] <ipanman92> oh ok haha
[20:56] <ipanman92> what books would you consider classical?
[20:57] <ipanman92> like the older ones or the ones more well known?
[20:57] <Hachiiiko> Food of the Gods by McKenna, the Tao of Poo, Siddharta, Bardho Todol/Tibetan Book/Psychedelic Experience
[20:58] <Hachiiiko> I could think of some more but I'm not sure whether they're classics
[20:58] <Hachiiiko> hahahahahaa, Pooh* not Poo
[20:58] <ipanman92> yeah those are all ones that i really want to read haha
[20:59] <ipanman92> that would be awesome
[20:59] <ipanman92> a philisophical examination of pooh bear

[20:59] <Hachiiiko> yeah, maybe The Te of Piglett as well
[21:00] <ipanman92> hahaha
[21:00] <Hachiiiko> you know those are real books right?
[21:00] <ipanman92> what
[21:00] <Hachiiiko> hahahaha
[21:00] <Hachiiiko> the Tao of Pooh was actually one of the most upvoted suggestions!
[21:01] <Hachiiiko> and The Te of Piglett is the follow-up by the same other
[21:01] <Hachiiiko> google it!
[21:01] <Hachiiiko> I'm off to bed
[21:01] <ipanman92> i just did haha
[21:01] <Hachiiiko> for realsies now
[21:01] <ipanman92> i saw it
[21:01] <ipanman92> but i didnt think it meant the teddy bear
[21:01] <Hachiiiko> haha, it sure does
[21:01] <ipanman92> i just assumed some zen buddhist dudes name was pooh
[21:02] <ipanman92> well shit
[21:02] <ipanman92> now it sounds infinitely more interesting
[21:02] <Hachiiiko> haha, I can't wait to read it
[21:03] <Hachiiiko> although it's very specifically about Taoism, so maybe it's not directly a "Psychonaut classic"
[21:03] <Hachiiiko> ah well, we'll see where it goes
[21:03] <Hachiiiko> good night and talk to you soon@
[21:03] <Hachiiiko> !*
[21:03] <ipanman92> yup see you at the next convo hopefully!