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8:49 PM <MightierYet> so you're saying that people self-report other motivations, and don't seem to be succesful in that motivation if it in fact is their underlying motivation, so in what sense is it actually their motivation?
8:49 PM <lunastar1> Hi
8:50 PM <•Tyler> hey lunastar1
8:50 PM <lunastar1> Morality, eh.
8:50 PM <•Tyler> fllwthewolves09, I am all right, though a little tired today
8:50 PM <lunastar1> I'd like to argue a position about that
8:50 PM <•Tyler> then again who isn't
8:50 PM <lunastar1> Anyone willing to engage?
8:50 PM <MightierYet> probably!
8:50 PM <lunastar1> Well, here it goes...
8:51 PM <lunastar1> Morality doesn't exist. It's just a system used to control stupid and/or weak people under a master/slave system. It's strongest form is taxation.
8:51 PM <lunastar1> Any disagreements?
8:51 PM <•Tyler> ye
8:51 PM <•Broolucks> MightierYet: to me it looks like you are saying maximizing pleasure is what the brain's decision algorithm does, no matter what it does
8:52 PM <TGB> Yes, I disagree with that.
8:52 PM <MightierYet> no matter what it does?  no, that is what it does
8:52 PM <•Tyler> I'd say its strongest form is probably slavery, not taxation
8:52 PM <•Tyler> also your premise isn't something I agree with, anyhow
8:52 PM <lunastar1> I base this mainly off Nietzsche's philosophy and my studies of Political Science. I currently hold a Bachelors in Science on Political Science and took some business classes in undergrad. Currently studying for my Masters in Political Science and taking a non-matriculated class in Business.
8:53 PM <lunastar1> I fail to see how the premise is false after studying politics, and certain philosophies, in-depth.
8:53 PM <MightierYet> that sounds largely like my position so far, yes, Broolucks
8:53 PM <•Broolucks> and I think that's at best vacuous or misleading
8:53 PM <•Broolucks> it trivializes the concept of pleasure basically
8:53 PM <lunastar1> Something I learned in my Masters classes, and something I'm sure many will be disturbed and valiently try to disagree with, is that
8:54 PM <lunastar1> History taught by a nation-state is skewed so you feel loyal to that nation-state
8:54 PM <lunastar1> it becomes part of your personal identity psychologically
8:54 PM <•Tyler> historical revisionism isn't that contentious of a concept
8:54 PM <lunastar1> and you're not told the full extent of the war crimes by certain leaders of your country
8:55 PM <•Tyler> although thanks to democratized hubs like say, the internet, you can still learn that stuff
8:55 PM <lunastar1> But it can be, and is, when it effects the lives of people today
8:55 PM <•Rinsaikeru> by that logic, no rich persons should have any kind of morality
8:55 PM <•Broolucks> I could say "decision procedure", or I could say "pleasure optimizer"
8:55 PM <•Broolucks> the former is a lot clearer than the latter
8:55 PM <•Tyler> lunastar1, do you think that making moral statements is impossible, then?
8:55 PM <•Broolucks> much less likely to be misunderstood
8:55 PM <lunastar1> rich people don't have any kind of morality beyond their personal beliefs
8:55 PM <lunastar1> and continue to get away with more
8:55 PM <•Tyler> nobody has morality beyond their beliefs
8:55 PM <lunastar1> Tyler
8:55 PM <lunastar1> Yes
8:56 PM <lunastar1> Rich people still get away with far more
8:56 PM <lunastar1> Because they're rich
8:56 PM <•Rinsaikeru> that is a far weaker statement than your initial claim
8:56 PM <•Tyler> right
8:56 PM <•Tyler> but like
8:56 PM <•Tyler> that's a criticism of authority and power structures
8:56 PM <•Tyler> not morality
8:56 PM <•Rinsaikeru> ^
8:56 PM <TGB> Right
8:56 PM <lunastar1> Morality creates power structures and authority
8:56 PM <TGB> Like, here's a moral claim I endorsed earlier: "I ought not to hurt people for fun"
8:56 PM <TGB> If "morality doesn't exist" then this statement, I take it, can't be true.
8:57 PM <•Tyler> lunastar1, other way around
8:57 PM <TGB> So what is the argument that starts with "Rich people get away with more things"
8:57 PM <TGB> and leads to the conclusion "'I ought not to hurt people for fun' isn't true"?
8:57 PM <lunastar1> The bailout, War corporations, presidents getting away with bombing civilian areas, etc, etc.
8:57 PM <•Rinsaikeru> still not really about morality
8:57 PM <TGB> No.
8:57 PM <•Tyler> I agree that it's all quite bad stuff
8:58 PM <TGB> Those things are support for the premise "Rich people get away with more things."
8:58 PM <•Tyler> but it isn't saying a single thing about the coherency of morality as a thing
8:58 PM <lunastar1> Then what is morality if not used in practical application?
8:58 PM <TGB> I'm asking what other premises get you from there to the conclusion
8:58 PM <MightierYet> the root of unrest?
8:58 PM <•Tyler> a system to measure right and wrong, lunastar1
8:58 PM <•Tyler> which is what you're doing
8:58 PM <•Broolucks> people don't have to think that modern society is moral in order to claim morality exists
8:58 PM <lunastar1> Then on what basis does morality exist?
8:58 PM <•Tyler> that's what people usually end up trying to figure out
8:58 PM <•Broolucks> I don't know, I'm not a moral realist
8:59 PM <•Tyler> brb, just assume anything TGB says I agree with though
8:59 PM <lunastar1> If morality has no practical application
8:59 PM <lunastar1> then it's useless
8:59 PM <•redfog> what makes you think it doesnt?
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8:59 PM <TGB> lunastar1, that much is tautological
8:59 PM <lunastar1> It would be no better than arguing fiction.
8:59 PM <•Broolucks> typical justifications range from divine command to core principles like "equality of opportunity" or "maximizing happiness"
8:59 PM <MightierYet> it has practical application, but that doesn't mean it's all-powerful
8:59 PM <lunastar1> But it has to have a degree of effect
9:00 PM <lunastar1> otherwise, how can it even be worthwhile to use or argue?
9:00 PM <MightierYet> I think it does, and the fact that you're complaining about the rich and powerful is evidence of that
9:00 PM <TGB> Because it tells you what you ought to do.
9:00 PM <lunastar1> Oh no
9:00 PM <•Broolucks> you can argue their future application, lunastar1
9:00 PM <•redfog> and, how did you get from question its existance to questioning its purpose (did you just give u pthe formner question and grant is existance)?
9:00 PM <lunastar1> I'm not complaining about the rich and powerful
9:00 PM <•Broolucks> you can rant about institutions
9:00 PM <TGB> If I'm trying to decide whether to cheat on a test, and it turns out that I ought not to, that seems like the sort of thing I should know.
9:00 PM <lunastar1> I'm just pointing out the holes in standard moral precepts
9:01 PM <MightierYet> so, when you say that the rich can get away with anything, and presidents can bomb civilian areas with impunity - how does that make you feel?
9:01 PM <•Broolucks> envious?
9:01 PM <•Broolucks> :)
9:01 PM <lunastar1> Also, morality has to be what drives power structures and laws. Otherwise, why else did humans fight against slavery? Or for womens rights? or any change in lawful institutions?
9:01 PM <•Rinsaikeru> if that's all your doing, why come in bursting out bombastic claims about there being no morality for the rich? :/
9:01 PM <•redfog> how about you let people answer/discuss one question before jumping to another?
9:01 PM <•Rinsaikeru> you're*
9:01 PM — •Rinsaikeru sighs
9:02 PM <lunastar1> MightierYet: Pretty depressed. Basically learned humanity has no desire for peace.
9:02 PM <fllwthewolves09> So, does morality only apply when there are repercussions to your actions?
9:02 PM <MightierYet> it sounds like you're complaining about things
9:02 PM <lunastar1> Rinsaikeru: Because, under the current state of affairs, it IS a true claim.
9:02 PM <MightierYet> maybe your morality might cause you to try to convince other people to *change* things?
9:02 PM <•Rinsaikeru> no it isn't
9:03 PM <•Rinsaikeru> the rich just have the ability to pay for defense lawyers and avoid law---it's got no bearing on morality, nor do all rich persons abuse their ability to buy their way out of difficulty or act without morality
9:03 PM <•Rinsaikeru> it's a silly statement
9:04 PM <•Broolucks> so you have a conception of morality, you're just jaded about its application
9:04 PM <•Broolucks> that's a different problem I think
9:04 PM <lunastar1> It really and truly is. A corporation can be totally irresponsible with safety protocals in factories, the factories can blow-up and kill a bunch of senior citizens in a old folks home nearby, and there won't be much in terms of ramifications besides paying a few million in fines.
9:04 PM <TGB> Yeah, but that has nothing to do with morality.
9:04 PM <lunastar1> Okay, so let me ask this, if morality has NO APPLICATION
9:04 PM <lunastar1> then what use is it?
9:05 PM <•Broolucks> guidance for the future
9:05 PM <TGB> again, this is tautologous
9:05 PM <•Broolucks> pressure so that it doesn't get worse
9:05 PM <TGB> But
9:05 PM <TGB> I don't accept that morality has "no application"
9:05 PM <TGB> I think we apply moral reasoning quite frequently
9:05 PM <TGB> For example, in deciding whom to vote for
9:05 PM <TGB> Or whether to buy cage-free eggs
9:05 PM <TGB> and lots of stuff like that
9:06 PM <•Broolucks> I agree
9:06 PM <•Broolucks> morality is how you evaluate things
9:06 PM <lunastar1> That can certainly affect personhood
9:06 PM <lunastar1> but not society
9:06 PM <•Broolucks> right now your evaluation is that corporations act immorally and the system lets it slide
9:06 PM <TGB> Well then it sounds like you are conceding that morality does have an application and a use
9:06 PM <fllwthewolves09> TGB but doesn't this only occur with our own selfess ideologies,and what is in our intrest?
9:06 PM <•Broolucks> you need a moral system to make such a claim
9:06 PM <zamabe> morality is a function of society, it's the code which governs the interactions in a society
9:06 PM <MightierYet> sounds like you're saying "we haven't succeeded in enacting our morality perfectly.  We should forget about trying."
9:06 PM <zamabe> :/
9:06 PM <TGB> namely, its application in influencing individual decisions
9:07 PM <lunastar1> Fine, if morality is relegated specifically to personhood then Zamabe's statement is incorrect?
9:07 PM <zamabe> :/
9:08 PM <zamabe> the interactions of a society are driven by persons
9:08 PM <TGB> Well I don't actually concede that morality is "relegated to personhood"
9:08 PM <TGB> Largely for the reason that zamabe just stated
9:08 PM <TGB> There are many facts about society which are driven by the moral judgments of individuals
9:08 PM <lunastar1> then it is a societal application and my points about our current "moral" system are correct?
9:08 PM <TGB> For example, the fact that overt racism is widely condemned.
9:09 PM <•Broolucks> laws and regulations are not always in line with common morality
9:09 PM <•Broolucks> they are distinct things
9:09 PM <lunastar1> Yes
9:09 PM <TGB> No, because in that case your statements are obviously *incorrect*
9:09 PM <•Broolucks> few people would say corporations act morally
9:09 PM <TGB> There are many things in our society which can be traced to moral reasoning
9:09 PM <lunastar1> How are my statements incorrect when that is how society functions today?
9:09 PM <TGB> Your argument seems to be that, since society doesn't object to *some* immoral things, society must not care about morality *at all*
9:10 PM <zamabe> lunastar1, the justice code is not an accurate representation of the society's moral code, though it tends towards a representation of it.
9:10 PM <fllwthewolves09> TGB but some people are racist so does that mean that morality is confined to the individual and not to the community
9:10 PM <keito> It really and truly is. A corporation can be totally irresponsible with safety protocals in factories, the factories can blow-up and kill a bunch of senior citizens in a old folks home nearby, and there won't be much in terms of ramifications besides paying a few million in fines.
9:10 PM <fllwthewolves09> Surely even racist people have morals
9:10 PM <zamabe> lunastar1, the moral code of a whole society changes over time :/
9:10 PM <TGB> fllwthewolves09, I'm not sure what you're asking
9:11 PM <zamabe> keito, I just jumped in here, can you tell me what point that's supposed to make since you're repeating it?
9:11 PM <lunastar1> He was agreeing with me.
9:11 PM <lunastar1> He or she
9:11 PM <lunastar1> sorry, shouldn't assume.
9:11 PM <zamabe> "Ze"
9:11 PM <lunastar1> xD
9:11 PM <keito> shit. well lunstar1, in regards to this, corporations are not people (regardless of what the courts say). And as a corporation, they have different goals than people. That skews their morality. It doesn't make them evil or bad, but it does mean we have to aware of the limitations of such companies
9:12 PM <MightierYet> 'it' works fine, dammit...
9:12 PM <lunastar1> mhm
9:12 PM <lunastar1> They basically operate on a different moral paradigm
9:12 PM <keito> the goal of a corporation is to make money for their shareholders. It is what they have been entrusted to do.
9:12 PM <zamabe> lunastar1, that sounds fair
9:12 PM <lunastar1> I spoke with lobbyists and one of my professor's who is a lobbyist...
9:12 PM <fllwthewolves09> TGB well obviously what people view as right and wrong will differ, but should we view what the majority of people see as right and wrong as the correct morality to have or should the individual just have their own moral code
9:12 PM <MightierYet> they are motivated by maximising *profit* rather than *pleasure*.  :D we're doing *philosophy*!
9:12 PM <lunastar1> and before I say anymore, please be reminded this is largely anecdotal
9:13 PM <•Broolucks> profits are pleasure
9:13 PM <zamabe> money is happiness
9:13 PM <keito> and zamabe I just fucked up is all. I was supposed to quote that
9:13 PM <lunastar1> but basically he regards the large swath of U.S. society as peasants. Not sure how largely this view is shared.
9:13 PM <MightierYet> I love an argument that starts with a qualification - "the following argument is based on BS"
9:13 PM <•Broolucks> :D
9:14 PM <lunastar1> Aren't most corporate executives generally basing their philosophical positions off Ayn Rand?
9:14 PM <lunastar1> Ayn Rand seems to be pretty popular in the view of most corporate CEOs
9:14 PM <•Broolucks> I don't know about most, but it'd be in line with their interests
9:14 PM <zamabe> lunastar1, if you're trying to make any point worth considering about the knowledge of the general populous (and mind you we mostly agree with the anecdote), this isn't the way to go about it :p
9:14 PM <TGB> fllwthewolves09, I'm still not sure I fully understand. I don't think the *correctness* of a moral theory is relative to society *or* relative to individuals.
9:14 PM <lunastar1> yup
9:14 PM <•Broolucks> people like philosophies that benefit them
9:14 PM <keito> and lunastar1 you may be interested in the 'type B' or whatever they're called companies. Basically Co-ops or companies that have ethical responsibility written into their business code.
9:14 PM <zamabe> Broolucks, ohai democracy, slavery
9:15 PM <lunastar1> This is gonna sound very horrible...
9:15 PM <zamabe> slavery is pleasure
9:15 PM <lunastar1> And I'll understand if y'all hate me for this but...
9:15 PM <zamabe> there, now you can't go lower
9:15 PM <•Broolucks> genocide is pleasure
9:15 PM <•Broolucks> there
9:15 PM <MightierYet> all people except for me are bad
9:15 PM <lunastar1> I'm seeing less and less reason not to be part of a corporation >_>
9:15 PM <zamabe> hitler is god
9:15 PM <TGB> fllwthewolves09, You might try replacing "morality" with "mathematics" in the question. Should we accept the mathematical beliefs of society? No, we should accept what can be proved - society might be mistaken about that. Is mathematics up to the invidual? No, because again it's a matter of what the mathematical facts are (as seen through things like mathematical proof) and not a matter of individual belief.
9:16 PM <lunastar1> Mathematics is absolutely integral to the welfare of a society
9:16 PM <lunastar1> it's how we compute crime statistics
9:16 PM <MightierYet> I think societies existed before mathematics.
9:16 PM <TGB> But it is true that people should have individual mathematical beliefs, in the sense that individuals are responsible for assessing proofs and authorities in order to come to their mathematical beleifs.
9:16 PM <lunastar1> No.
9:16 PM <zamabe> lunastar1, well yeah, a corporation is a shield. Your obligation to abide by a common moral code is less imposed upon you when you can offload your actions as the responsibility of someone else when they're not so savory.
9:16 PM <lunastar1> Math is based on real life
9:17 PM <MightierYet> *based on*
9:17 PM <TGB> I.e. if I want to know whether Fermat's Last Theorem is correct, it's up to me to teach myself the proof, or to look to mathematicians who say that it's been proved and decide whether I trust them.
9:17 PM <lunastar1> Math IS real life
9:17 PM <MightierYet> hit me, sugar
9:17 PM <lunastar1> You can't make-up assumptions with math
9:17 PM <•redfog> sure you can
9:17 PM <•redfog> you just cant prove them sound
9:17 PM <TGB> But I don't get to have my own personal mathematics. If I decide that I don't trust professional mathematicians, and I conclude that FLT is wrong, then *I'm* wrong.
9:17 PM <lunastar1> then it's faulty math
9:17 PM <lunastar1> and thus untrue
9:18 PM <fllwthewolves09> TGB do you get to have your own personal moral beliefs?
9:18 PM <MightierYet> I think that's wrong, TGB.  You might be a pioneer.
9:18 PM <•redfog> depends on how you define true
9:18 PM <TGB> MightierYet, in the specific case of FLT I'd just be wrong
9:18 PM <•Broolucks> eh, people manage to make up science and get wide acceptance for it
9:18 PM <MightierYet> well, that's only if you accept that FLT is true
9:19 PM <•Broolucks> math's just a harder challenge
9:19 PM <zamabe> lunastar1, "math is based on real life" lolololololololololol
9:19 PM <lunastar1> I'm using the scientific method in this regard, if you're just applying the argument from ignorance fallacy, redfog, then your stance is moot.
9:19 PM <TGB> MightierYet, it doesn't depend on whether *I accept* that FLT is true. It just depends on whether it's actually true.
9:19 PM <MightierYet> maybe the 'proof' will be debunked at some point.  Maybe not of course.  But we can't know for certain.  At the moment, we think FLT is true, and have good reasons to do so.  But that's been true of other theories too.
9:19 PM <TGB> In the same way that the boiling point of water depends on chemistry, not on what I accept about chemistry.
9:20 PM <zamabe> math is useful for accurately representing things due to its rigor, but it's not inherently only useful for "reality"
9:20 PM <zamabe> @ lunastar1
9:20 PM <MightierYet> you don't *know* that FLT is true or not
9:20 PM <TGB> Like, if I decide to believe that water boils at 150 degrees fahrenheit, that won't make my water boil any faster
9:20 PM <lunastar1> What do you all mean by "FLT"?
9:20 PM <TGB> Fermat's Last Theorem, lunastar1
9:20 PM <MightierYet> Faster than Light Travel OFC
9:20 PM <TGB> :P
9:20 PM <•redfog> lunastar1> fauly math is math that does not compute...  models based on math can compute and fail to be conistant with reality as sicnce requires
9:20 PM <zamabe> FTL!
9:20 PM <TGB> MightierYet, I'm not saying that I know with certainty that FLT is true
9:21 PM <fllwthewolves09> TGB so replace FLT with "racism being bad", and apply that to morality. Are you still just wrong?
9:21 PM <TGB> I'm just using it as an example of a mathematical truth
9:21 PM <TGB> fllwthewolves09, I think so.
9:21 PM <lunastar1> oh
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9:21 PM <MightierYet> I think you're wrong to say then that you would be *wrong* to say FLT is wrong, if you don't know that FLT is true.
9:21 PM <fllwthewolves09> TGB how come? (I'm not making an argument here, I'm just asking hopfully thought provoking questions)
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9:22 PM <MightierYet> you can certainly say that you'd be wrong, to those of us who agree that FLT is true.  But to frame that as being 'objectively wrong' is pushing it.
9:22 PM <TGB> MightierYet, I do know that it's true. Which is different from saying that I know with certainty that it's true.
9:22 PM <lunastar1> so
9:22 PM <lunastar1> out of curiosity
9:22 PM <lunastar1> what personal philosophies do you all live by? I'm asking for the short version.
9:23 PM <MightierYet> I think you're using 'know' badly.  *shrug* words.
9:23 PM fllwthewolves09 → easy
9:23 PM <easy> changed my name so it's easier to type
9:24 PM <TGB> oh, I was just using tab-completion
9:24 PM <•redfog> lol
9:24 PM <lunastar1> So... you're an "easy" person to get with? :P
9:24 PM <Fatalstryke> What's the discussion at hand?
9:24 PM <lunastar1> <.<
9:24 PM <lunastar1> what personal philosophies do you all live by? I'm asking for the short version.
9:24 PM <easy> oh well
9:25 PM <MightierYet> what is a personal philosophy?  what does one look like?
9:25 PM <easy> i did not know that was a thing lol
9:25 PM <•Broolucks> yeah this is too vague
9:25 PM <lunastar1> Okay, feel free to describe it as lengthy as possible then
9:25 PM <MightierYet> describe *what*?
9:25 PM <lunastar1> ........
9:26 PM <lunastar1> Your personal life philosophy
9:26 PM <lunastar1> that you live by
9:26 PM <•redfog> with regard to what aspect of life?
9:26 PM <MightierYet> ...?  What is one of those?
9:26 PM <lunastar1> You all have one, right?
9:26 PM <•Broolucks> why don't you start?
9:26 PM <MightierYet> Can you give an example?
9:26 PM <lunastar1> Okay, sure...
9:26 PM <lunastar1> After reading Thus spake; Zarathustra and Geneology of Morals
9:26 PM <easy> Well, I think that the existence of anything is a little too abstract to be just chance.
9:26 PM <lunastar1> along with several other material from my own personal life
9:27 PM <MightierYet> you're so well educated, lunastar1
9:27 PM <lunastar1> I decided to create my own philosophy to live by
9:27 PM <easy> MightierYet: don't be rude
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9:27 PM <lunastar1> Nietzsche proposed the Ubermensch philosophy as a moral guidepost
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9:27 PM <lunastar1> Basically his replacement for religion
9:27 PM <•Madplatypus> I'm a collectivist humanist, lunastar1.
9:27 PM <lunastar1> ah
9:28 PM <lunastar1> so, more on the socialist spectrum, Madplatypus?
9:28 PM <•Madplatypus> And I'm awfully sympathetic with Communism.
9:28 PM <lunastar1> Knew it XD
9:28 PM <•Madplatypus> Deeply inside it.
9:28 PM <•Madplatypus> Collectivists tend to be. :P
9:28 PM <lunastar1> Which communist system is most like what you would live by?
9:28 PM <•redfog> in soviet russia, its deeply inside you!
9:29 PM <•Madplatypus> I'm not sure, lunastar1. There are a lot of questions that need to be asked and a lot of things that were never properly tried.
9:29 PM <lunastar1> yup
9:29 PM <lunastar1> ever heard the international socialist anthem?
9:29 PM <•Madplatypus> No nation-state has ever really implemented Communism - Stalin and Mao used it as a watch-word but they were functionally facists.
9:29 PM <•Madplatypus> Once or twice.
9:30 PM <lunastar1> yeah, the problem might be nation-states themselves
9:30 PM <•Madplatypus> I would probably agree to that.
9:30 PM <lunastar1> you can't have collective humanism if you create racial, cultural, and political differences
9:30 PM <•Madplatypus> Well, you can have cultural differences imo. :-/
9:30 PM <lunastar1> they generally lead to collective narcissism
9:31 PM <lunastar1> that's the problem with culture
9:31 PM <MightierYet> I still don't get what humanism is all about...
9:31 PM <lunastar1> Believing in human rights for all humans
9:31 PM <lunastar1> everywhere
9:31 PM <lunastar1> no exceptions
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9:31 PM <•Rinsaikeru> hello ehh
9:31 PM <ehh> hi
9:31 PM <•Madplatypus> MightierYet, generally speaking, eschewing placing ideologies, nations, religions, etc. before the needs and rights of humankind.
9:31 PM <lunastar1> Yeah
9:32 PM <•Madplatypus> Often involves place symbolic/pseudo-religious value on humanity itself.
9:32 PM <•Madplatypus> We are our own purpouse, etc. :P
9:32 PM <lunastar1> Because religions, nations, and ethnic centrism create radical divisions
9:32 PM <MightierYet> so it's just atheism, but stated in an 'ethical' way?
9:32 PM <•Madplatypus> You can be an atheist and not give a shit about humanity.
9:32 PM <•Madplatypus> You can be an atheist and radically nationalistic.
9:33 PM <•Madplatypus> I'd say some people who are religious are much more humanistic than a decent number of atheists I've met.
9:33 PM <•Rinsaikeru> atheism is really only about the one thing, the rest of your worldview is really unrelated
9:34 PM <•Broolucks> yeah atheism doesn't entail much at all
9:34 PM <lunastar1> Atheism has become a militarized nonsensical patriotic campaign thanks to Sam Harris
9:34 PM <•Broolucks> just that you don't believe in gods
9:34 PM <MightierYet> hmm...  needs of people above ideology...  so it's like pragmatism?
9:34 PM <•Rinsaikeru> not all, or even most of atheism can be typified like that lunastar1
9:34 PM <lunastar1> It's because atheism is a non-belief
9:34 PM <•Tyler> lunastar1, political and social campaign thanks to Harris and co, sure
9:34 PM <•Broolucks> lunastar1: let's not generalize the behavior of a subset to atheists to all of them
9:34 PM <•Madplatypus> I'd certainly say that it *is* pragmatic MightierYet.
9:34 PM <•Rinsaikeru> also I haven't seen them to take up weapons very often either, this is looking like a pile of hyperbole
9:34 PM <•Tyler> but that's not representative of all atheism, just New Atheism
9:34 PM <•Madplatypus> Rinsaikeru would probably disagree. :P
9:34 PM <•Broolucks> we don't even have a book to draw from
9:34 PM <easy> lunastar1: that's like grouping IS with Catholics. It doesn't work that way.
9:35 PM <lunastar1> Rinsaikeru, it's becoming less and less true, unfortunately
9:35 PM <•Rinsaikeru> can you offer any proof of that claim?
9:35 PM <lunastar1> Look at military statistics
9:35 PM <•Rinsaikeru> what about them?
9:35 PM <lunastar1> Or Harris's campaign in the Netherlands
9:35 PM <lunastar1> Dude, that guy needs to be stopped
9:35 PM <•Rinsaikeru> atheists in the military isn't the same as militant atheists....
9:35 PM <•Madplatypus> There are a fuckton of military statistics lunastar1.
9:35 PM <•Rinsaikeru> one lunatic now?
9:36 PM <•Madplatypus> Which military specifics specifically?
9:36 PM <•Rinsaikeru> how many crazy theists have there been? :/
9:36 PM <•Madplatypus> A lot.
9:36 PM <•Broolucks> what did Harris say in the Netherlands?
9:36 PM <lunastar1> It's on the increase, and it's all Harris's doing.
9:36 PM <•Madplatypus> We want proof, lunastar1
9:36 PM <•Broolucks> what?
9:36 PM <•Rinsaikeru> prove an increase
9:36 PM <•Madplatypus> You've already said as much already
9:36 PM <lunastar1> Harris has been campaigning hard in the Netherlands
9:36 PM <•Madplatypus> You're just making baseless asserations at this point.
9:36 PM <•Rinsaikeru> yep
9:36 PM <lunastar1> He donated extensively to certain racist anti-islamic campaigns
9:37 PM <•Madplatypus> Being anti-islamic doesn't make you a racist.
9:37 PM <•Tyler> I would really like to see that
9:37 PM <•Madplatypus> But you can post evidence lunastar1
9:37 PM <•Tyler> I mean I hate the shit out of Sam Harris
9:37 PM <•redfog> Madplatypus> dont think that just started
9:37 PM <•Broolucks> what campaigns?
9:37 PM <•Tyler> which is why I'd like to see it
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9:37 PM <•Broolucks> I mean there are atheists who really hate religion, especially Islam
9:37 PM <•Broolucks> but let's not blow things out of proportion
9:37 PM <easy> lunastar1: and you think the rise of the point of view has to do with atheists and not the ISIS beheadings and campaign?
9:38 PM <•Madplatypus> That there are plenty of good people who are also muslim I would not deny.
9:38 PM <•Tyler> like Yusuf Islam
9:39 PM <lunastar1> Easy
9:39 PM <•Broolucks> muslims did great things in their golden age too
9:39 PM <lunastar1> I have quite an interesting bit of info to tell you regarding that
9:39 PM <•Madplatypus> But there are hundreds of thousands if not more of people who are hostile(Actively and passively) to percieved non-islamic things.
9:39 PM <•Broolucks> gotta be respectful of that at least
9:39 PM <•Madplatypus> And it's giving Islam an awful rap
9:39 PM <lunastar1> but I think you'll all severely hate me, if I do
9:39 PM <•Tyler> their culture and history is important
9:39 PM <lunastar1> because it's anti-patriotic, but the truth... >_>
9:39 PM <•Broolucks> lunastar1: can't be worse than not providing it
9:39 PM <•Madplatypus> You're assuming we already don't lunastar1. ;)
9:39 PM <lunastar1> hang on
9:39 PM <lunastar1> trying to find the source of where I read it
9:39 PM <•Tyler> I don't hate you lunastar1, I think Sam Harris is pretty lame just as much as the next guy
9:39 PM <easy> I don't judge
9:40 PM <MightierYet> anti-patriotic to where?
9:40 PM <lunastar1> Harris is known to have given donations to campaigns in the Netherlands
9:40 PM <•Rinsaikeru> even if Sam Harris is absolutely evil, what does that have to do with the rest of the atheists out there?
9:40 PM <•Madplatypus> Which campaigns?
9:40 PM <•Rinsaikeru> I can't say I've ever paid any attention to him.
9:41 PM <•Broolucks> me neither
9:41 PM <keito> neither
9:41 PM <•Broolucks> I might pick up one of his books at some point to see what the fuss is about though
9:41 PM <•Tyler> it's pretty bad
9:41 PM <keito> some people seem to think that atheists have a collective conscious
9:41 PM <•Tyler> as in bad writing
9:41 PM <lunastar1> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/losing-our-spines-to-save_b_100132.html
9:41 PM <lunastar1> here we go
9:41 PM <•Broolucks> what about the ideas?
9:41 PM <keito> or gather in a single place one day a week
9:41 PM <•Tyler> pretty meh ideas
9:42 PM <•Tyler> he tries to construct an objective morality that is kind of whack
9:42 PM <easy> I just drank my dip spit
9:42 PM <easy> fml
9:42 PM <•Tyler> easy, :(
9:42 PM <•Tyler> "the world's most important culture war: the zero-sum conflict between civil society and traditional Islam. "
9:42 PM <•Tyler> what kind of sensational bullshit is this
9:42 PM <MightierYet> Geert Wilders under death threats?  This is an ancient article?
9:42 PM <lunastar1> New Atheism lol
9:42 PM <lunastar1> Yes
9:42 PM <lunastar1> It's old
9:43 PM <lunastar1> anyway, Harris donated to his campaign
9:43 PM <keito> grr I dislike how that label is used
9:43 PM <lunastar1> that was the point
9:43 PM <lunastar1> Well yeah, that's New Atheism for ya
9:44 PM <•Broolucks> who are a small minority of atheists
9:44 PM <•Tyler> keito, it's one of those could-be good titles that's been tarnished
9:44 PM <•Tyler> like uh
9:44 PM <•Tyler> National Socialism
9:44 PM <keito> it's used to lump people together, and then dismiss their opinions
9:44 PM <•Broolucks> similar to fundamentalists of any religion
9:44 PM <lunastar1> anyway
9:44 PM <lunastar1> about Islam and the USA...
9:44 PM <lunastar1> eh...
9:44 PM <•Broolucks> except atheists don't even have a sizable common thread like a book
9:44 PM <lunastar1> You all might hate me for saying this, learned it via independent research >_>
9:44 PM <•Broolucks> we don't hate anyone
9:45 PM <•Rinsaikeru> why do you keep saying we're going to hate you? :/
9:45 PM <easy> Broolucks: that's not going to stop groups forming with atheism as the only common denominator though
9:45 PM <lunastar1> It's extremely unpatrioitic to the USA
9:45 PM <•Broolucks> don't make us look for reasons
9:45 PM <lunastar1> and doesn't paint a positive light
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9:45 PM <•Rinsaikeru> not all of us are even american
9:45 PM <•Broolucks> I'm Canadian, I don't care
9:45 PM <•Tyler> I don't think any of us are patriotic particularly
9:45 PM <•Rinsaikeru> and those that are aren't particularly patriotic
9:45 PM <•Broolucks> even if it was about Canada
9:45 PM <•Tyler> what if it was about glorious Quebec
9:45 PM <•redfog> still not sure what hes trying to say... and im certaintly not going to read a 3k word article to find out what he wants to sa :p
9:45 PM <•Rinsaikeru> I'm down with Canada criticism (I'm also Canadian)
9:45 PM <TGB> "Philosophers hate him"
9:45 PM <MightierYet> humanists, humanists, everywhere
9:45 PM <•Broolucks> easy: sure, but that's rare
9:45 PM <•Tyler> I'm not a humanist
9:45 PM <TGB> "undermine moral raelism with this one weird trick"
9:46 PM <•Tyler> TGB, hahaha
9:46 PM <•Rinsaikeru> TGB if you wrote these articles, I would read them
9:46 PM <lunastar1> well okay
9:46 PM <•Broolucks> moral raelism
9:46 PM <•Rinsaikeru> I would read them all
9:46 PM <•Broolucks> haha
9:46 PM <•Tyler> rael as fuck
9:46 PM <MightierYet> don't do it, lunastar1, I'll hate you for it
9:46 PM <lunastar1> So, about why the U.S. continues to go to war with Middle Eastern countries...
9:46 PM <•Broolucks> I like rael he's chill
9:46 PM <MightierYet> oil?
9:46 PM <lunastar1> Like, the real reason
9:46 PM <•Tyler> rael's a little whacky but he's got a good head on his shoulders
9:46 PM <MightierYet> oil?
9:46 PM <lunastar1> More than that
9:46 PM <•Rinsaikeru> yeah mostly oil
9:46 PM <•Tyler> lunastar1, diplomatic power
9:47 PM <lunastar1> More than just oil
9:47 PM <MightierYet> oil and gas?
9:47 PM <easy> Broolucks: I would agree it's rare in the ratio of atheists to atheist groups, but not int the sense that it's rare to run into atheist groups.
9:47 PM <•Tyler> hhaaa
9:47 PM <•Broolucks> the Atheist Illuminati
9:47 PM <•Broolucks> of course
9:47 PM <•Tyler> it's not even really about oil
9:47 PM <lunastar1> During Nixon's administration
9:47 PM <•Rinsaikeru> "oil" ?
9:47 PM <lunastar1> the U.S. was in terrible straits
9:47 PM <•Tyler> I mean it's about oil but only control of it, we aren't gonna just grab the oil there so much as stop China from having it
9:47 PM <lunastar1> and close to collapse
9:47 PM <•redfog> lunastar1> your not very good at leading people to what you want to say... you should probably just say it
9:47 PM <•ConShaunnery> draaaainage
9:47 PM <easy> Broolucks: We have them here, and I live in a terribly small town
9:47 PM <•Tyler> drainage eli you boy
9:47 PM <lunastar1> it's a long story
9:47 PM <lunastar1> so bear with it
9:47 PM <•Broolucks> easy: I think it depends on location
9:47 PM <•ConShaunnery> I drink your milkshake
9:47 PM <•Tyler> I'll bare with it
9:48 PM <•Broolucks> where I live atheism is rampant
9:48 PM — •Tyler slips off socks
9:48 PM <•Broolucks> it'd be silly to form groups about it
9:48 PM <•ConShaunnery> I drink it up!
9:48 PM <•Tyler> <lunastar1> During Nixon's administration
9:48 PM <easy> people are silly lol
9:48 PM <•Tyler> <lunastar1> the U.S. was in terrible straits
9:48 PM — •Tyler giggles
9:48 PM <MightierYet> so Nixon wanted more oil, and wasn't a crook, got it.
9:48 PM <lunastar1> anyway, Nixon nearly led the U.S. to collapse until he and Kissinger made an emergency deal with Saudi Arabia
9:48 PM <MightierYet> "you invade us in 30 years' time and we will save your nation"
9:49 PM <lunastar1> They would protect Saudi Arabia from any and all foreign challenges
9:49 PM <•Tyler> definitely it was Nixon that led to the decades coming civil unrest and unrelated proxy wars ongoing by the Cold War
9:49 PM <lunastar1> and all Saudi Arabia would have to do
9:49 PM <lunastar1> is sell their oil with U.S. dollars only
9:49 PM <MightierYet> petrodollars?
9:49 PM <lunastar1> yup
9:49 PM <lunastar1> Petrodollar
9:49 PM <MightierYet> well, it's a new one on me.  Do continue.
9:49 PM <lunastar1> After Nixon, several other U.S. presidents made deals with oil-rich nations
9:50 PM <lunastar1> the same agreement
9:50 PM <lunastar1> Protection from foreign invaders so long as you sold your oil on U.S. dollars
9:50 PM <MightierYet> mm-mmm, this is some goooood popcorn.
9:50 PM <lunastar1> three important things were caused by this
9:50 PM <•Tyler> (1) me being born
9:51 PM <lunastar1> 1.) Foreign countries had to purchase U.S. monies and enter into U.S. debt securities to get oil for their own nation-states.
9:51 PM <•ConShaunnery> wait shouldn't that be number two
9:51 PM <MightierYet> (2) Hitler came to power
9:51 PM <•ConShaunnery> why are there two 1s
9:51 PM <lunastar1> 2.) Oil was sold at a reduced price for all Americans and thanks to #1, they no longer had to work in factories.
9:51 PM <easy> rude
9:52 PM <MightierYet> (1) They all bought Mercedez-Benzes. Prince Charles started wearing all of lady Di's clothes - I couldn't believe it...
9:52 PM <lunastar1> 3.) U.S. economic prosperity increased exponentially and wealth swept across the entire country, such as the housing mortgage inflation.
9:52 PM <lunastar1> .....eh
9:52 PM <lunastar1> If you all don't care
9:52 PM <lunastar1> then I'll stop
9:53 PM <MightierYet> I'm just a dick, man, you go on.
9:53 PM <•redfog> well, its not like this is new discussion :p
9:53 PM <lunastar1> Well, the problem with the deal was
9:53 PM <•Rinsaikeru> the ones who are patiently reading what you're saying aren't the ones posting the silliness lunastar1
9:53 PM <•Rinsaikeru> don't mind them
9:53 PM <lunastar1> The U.S. made agreements with dictatorships in several of these countries for this system to exist
9:54 PM <•Tyler> <lunastar1> 3.) U.S. economic prosperity increased exponentially and wealth swept across the entire country, such as the housing mortgage inflation.
9:54 PM <lunastar1> more than that, the system requires CHEAP oil, meaning their workers can't be given more wages
9:54 PM <•Tyler> > post-nixon wealth
9:54 PM <•Tyler> > post-nixon country-wide prosperity not attributed to Clinton
9:54 PM <•Tyler> what is this some kind of republican propoganda
9:54 PM <lunastar1> As a result, we protect dictators, like the Saudi Monarchy, who rape and kill their own people.
9:55 PM <•Tyler> (I do care about what you're saying btw lunastar1 I don't mean to sound like I'm being disingenuous)
9:56 PM <lunastar1> The Saudi Monarch, an absolute monarch whose nation exists under Sharia Law, buys the most U.S. weapons up to 9.1 billion dollars and can get away with any crimes at all by virtue of being a monarch.
9:56 PM <lunastar1> He's known to jail his own citizens for the crime of public opinion
9:56 PM <MightierYet> as a Brit, I must protest.
9:56 PM <lunastar1> and he's the U.S.'s #1 ally
9:56 PM <lunastar1> Israel is #1
9:56 PM <MightierYet> Monarchs are awesome, and totally not dicks.
9:56 PM <lunastar1> *#2
9:56 PM <lunastar1> so the relationship is actually
9:57 PM <lunastar1> Saudi Arabia #1, Israel #2.
9:57 PM <•Tyler> monarchies are pretty awful when they're absolute, MightierYet
9:57 PM <•Tyler> :P
9:57 PM <•Rinsaikeru> As a Canadian, the queen's on the money and HRH doesn't bug us
9:57 PM <lunastar1> Not only that, Israel is more than likely a proxy used to manipulate the Middle East.
9:57 PM <•Rinsaikeru> so I'm down with constitutional monarchy
9:57 PM <easy> lunastar1: if israel is #1 why are we giving all our most powerful weapons to Canada?
9:57 PM <lunastar1> sorry
9:57 PM <•Tyler> lunastar1, maybe Wahhabism
9:57 PM <MightierYet> sounds like the awfulness is independent of the monarchiness, Tyler
9:57 PM <lunastar1> meant #2
9:57 PM <lunastar1> Israel is #2
9:57 PM <•Tyler> MightierYet, I would agree with that
9:57 PM <lunastar1> Saudi Arabia is #1
9:57 PM <easy> lunastar1: doesn't change my question
9:58 PM <•redfog> ^
9:58 PM <lunastar1> money
9:58 PM <lunastar1> also Canada is strategic to our defense
9:58 PM <easy> ok
9:58 PM <lunastar1> The reason the U.S. attacked Iraq in 2003
9:58 PM <lunastar1> was because Saddam wanted to change his money system to the Euro
9:58 PM <easy> so if canada is apparently giving us more money, and more strategic to our own homeland security, what constitutes an ally
9:58 PM <MightierYet> lol
9:59 PM <MightierYet> the idea of Saddam Hussein entering the Euro...  that is *precious* lol
9:59 PM <lunastar1> if the U.S. allowed that,  then it could mean that the entire Middle East could shift into the Euro
9:59 PM <lunastar1> instead of selling U.S. monies cheaply
9:59 PM <lunastar1> He was under the dollar before he wanted to change
9:59 PM <lunastar1> that should tell you something
10:00 PM <lunastar1> Now, for al Qaeda...
10:00 PM <MightierYet> that the Gulf War was long before Saddam died?
10:00 PM <lunastar1> It began in Egypt in the 1970s
10:00 PM <•Tyler> I think it began a long time before that
10:01 PM <lunastar1> Anwar Sadat, Egyptian leader at the time, was afraid the other political parties would overthrow him
10:01 PM <lunastar1> so he did the stupidest thing ever
10:01 PM <•ConShaunnery> In the land between the Tigris and Euphrates...
10:01 PM <•Tyler> Ride ride ride ride ride ride ride ride
10:01 PM <lunastar1> It's the reason Israel was revealed to have secretly assassinated him
10:01 PM <lunastar1> because fuck that idiot, he deserved it
10:02 PM <•ConShaunnery> a big big love
10:02 PM <lunastar1> He wanted to create his own political party
10:02 PM <•Tyler> here comes your man
10:02 PM <lunastar1> to have more stabilized power
10:02 PM <•Tyler> how's tat stupid?
10:02 PM <lunastar1> so he let out all the criminals in Egypt
10:02 PM <lunastar1> rapists, murderers, insane lunatics, etc.
10:02 PM <•Tyler> is an insane lunatic a double-negative
10:03 PM <•Tyler> are we, by extension, all insane lunatics?
10:03 PM <•Tyler> (sorry, continue)
10:03 PM <lunastar1> He had them begin preaching in college seminars, in public, on radios, etc.
10:03 PM <lunastar1> Egypt was widely regarded as the centerpiece of islamic culture and islamic discourse at the time
10:03 PM <•redfog> Tyler> we're all just one insane lunatic dont ya know.
10:03 PM <lunastar1> So... you can see where this is going...
10:03 PM <lunastar1> They came-up with a sixth tenant of Islam
10:03 PM <MightierYet> not a clue
10:04 PM <MightierYet> oil?
10:04 PM <•Tyler> Caliphates?
10:04 PM <•Tyler> "oil"?
10:05 PM <lunastar1> Basically, the only true Muslims are those who do away with secular morality and commit to killing anyone who disagrees with a strict interpretation of the faith. Muslims who disagree with this are apostates and must be killed.
10:05 PM <•redfog> MightierYet> [22:00] <lunastar1> Now, for al Qaeda...
10:05 PM <lunastar1> A young college kid by the name of Osama Binladen attended seminars, that college, and absorbed all that literature
10:06 PM <MightierYet> a good kid?
10:06 PM <lunastar1> No joke, that actually happened...
10:06 PM <MightierYet> into sports?
10:06 PM <lunastar1> He was attending Egyptian college at the time
10:06 PM <lunastar1> and embraced that interpretation of Islam
10:06 PM <lunastar1> Israel gets pissed off and kills Sadat
10:07 PM <lunastar1> Binladen is back in his home of Saudi Arabia by that time
10:07 PM <lunastar1> He becomes a spiritual leader for Islam, and becomes really popular in the Middle East thanks to his public works projects that he donates from his own personal wealth
10:08 PM <MightierYet> what a nice guy
10:08 PM <lunastar1> Saddam Hussein attacks Kuwait
10:08 PM <lunastar1> George H.W. Bush strikes back and puts U.S. military in the heart of the Islamic holy land of Saudi Arabia
10:08 PM <MightierYet> We didn't start the fire...
10:09 PM <lunastar1> And Binladen gets absolutely furious at what he considers sacrilege
10:09 PM ⇐ easy quit (~cgiirc@ChatSpiked6ofak.res.rr.com) Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client
10:09 PM <lunastar1> But more than that
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10:09 PM <lunastar1> this is a built-up hatred over time
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10:10 PM <lunastar1> Binladen was already furious at what he considered a genocide in Palestine
10:10 PM <lunastar1> and he thought the U.S. went way too far in their bombing campaigns of Iraq
10:10 PM <lunastar1> He tried to start a terrorist group in Saudi Arabia, the Saudis try to kill him right there
10:10 PM <lunastar1> and he flees to Afghanistan
10:11 PM <lunastar1> In Afghanistan, he joined up with the Taliban, re-began public works projects for the people there
10:11 PM <lunastar1> and began the terrorist group al Qaeda
10:11 PM <lunastar1> Also
10:11 PM <lunastar1> another history lesson, this time on the Taliban
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10:12 PM <lunastar1> The U.S. wanted to harm the Soviet Union in their war in Afghanistan in the 70s-80s
10:12 PM <lunastar1> So under Carter, Reagan, and then Bush Sr
10:12 PM <lunastar1> They had the Saudi monarchy campaign throughout the Middle East
10:12 PM <lunastar1> to fight the "Godless Soviets"
10:13 PM <lunastar1> Muslims from all across the world came to Afghanistan
10:13 PM <lunastar1> there, U.S. officials and Wahabi Muslims of Saudi Arabia
10:13 PM <lunastar1> put these revolutionaries
10:13 PM <lunastar1> in training camps, through UNICEF
10:13 PM <lunastar1> to teach them the extremist philosophy of Islam that Sadat helped create
10:14 PM <lunastar1> trained them to fight for their God. The thinking of the U.S. military brass at the time
10:14 PM <lunastar1> was that they were helping God-fearing peoples against the "Godless Soviets"
10:14 PM <lunastar1> after the war, the Taliban were completely rejected by their home countries in the Middle East
10:15 PM <lunastar1> because the Middle East countries said they became way too extreme and dangerous to allow back
10:15 PM <lunastar1> so the Taliban was formed in Afghanistan, where they raped, plundered, and destroyed the country
10:15 PM <lunastar1> which, before the Taliban arrived, was a pretty decent middle-class society
10:16 PM <•Madplatypus> lunastar1, can you type in larger groups please?
10:16 PM <lunastar1> they basically went from living in U.S.-like suburbs to huts
10:16 PM <lunastar1> oh sure
10:16 PM <•Madplatypus> Also, large parts of Afghanistan were still tribal
10:16 PM <•Madplatypus> That it was largely middle class is entirely false
10:16 PM <•Madplatypus> Kabul, maybeish
10:17 PM <lunastar1> Eh, middle class in terms of societal laws and benefits
10:18 PM <•Rinsaikeru> ...this is not a standard definition for middle class
10:21 PM <lunastar1> anyway, Binladen made it there and made his Fatwa in the early 90s, thanks to U.S. CIA giving them intelligence cables, they were able to hit U.S. embassies, U.S. bases, and U.S. soldiers. Binladen's specific contentions against the U.S. were the support for Israel's genocide of Palestine, the human rights violations of Iraq under Bush Sr and Clinton, the support for dictators who kill their
10:21 PM <lunastar1> own people which the U.S. sells weapons to, the purchase of black market drugs in the U.S., the protection of War criminals in the U.S., and the fact we're a hedonistic society and not Muslim
10:23 PM <lunastar1> Also, interesting fact, the Middle East was initially uncomfortable with the idea of U.S. citizens being killed but Binladen campaigned under the idea that because the U.S. citizens pay for the taxes of weapons used to kill civilians in the Middle East and the fact we elect leaders who order these killings; that, in his view, justifies the targeting of U.S. civilians.
10:25 PM <zamabe> Tyler, so I lied a bit. I'm going to binge The Malcontent's Gambit before Philosophize This :p
10:26 PM <•Tyler> hah, fair enough (I might need to listen to the former still)
10:26 PM <lunastar1> and yeah, rest his history. Binladen enacts 9/11 because the U.S. intelligence cables were compromised in Afghanistan. The U.S. uses that as justification for the war in Iraq. More religious fundamentalism and hatred as a result of civilian bombings, etc, etc.
10:27 PM <lunastar1> I believe this song is quite relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhAIyzjEzwM
10:27 PM <lunastar1> anyway, gotta go and study more poli sci and sleep early for work tomorrow. Night all
10:28 PM <lunastar1> hope the history lesson was either educational or entertaining
10:28 PM <•redfog> heard it all before
10:28 PM <lunastar1> even the petrodollar?
10:28 PM <zamabe> Sounds like Elvis
10:28 PM <•redfog> yes
10:28 PM <lunastar1> what do you think?
10:29 PM <•redfog> dicking around with other peoples countires is and has always been risky business
10:29 PM <lunastar1> yup >_>
10:29 PM <lunastar1> it's amazing how many people don't know about this
10:30 PM <lunastar1> since the U.S. education system largely makes you believe you live in the best country ever
10:30 PM <lunastar1> They still haven't admit the genocide in Iran
10:31 PM <lunastar1> anyway, going to bed
10:31 PM <lunastar1> Night all
10:31 PM ⇐ lunastar1 quit (GreatFelix@ChatSpikeuspk8j.dyn.optonline.net)