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  1. [17:04] -->| Conny (~ConArtist@pool-71-127-228-139.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) has joined #sw
  2. [17:17] =-= JamesHeart is now known as HeartAway
  3. [17:18] Conny o‿O
  4. [17:27] Scr7 o‿O
  5. [17:27] -->| Mariao (~chatzilla@96-35-20-129.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) has joined #sw
  6. [17:27] =-= Mariao is now known as OrangeBooloon
  7. [17:29] Conny o‿O
  8. [17:29] OrangeBooloon i had to put everything the way it was
  9. [17:30] OrangeBooloon my computer reset all my prefs after I disguised it
  10. [17:31] Conny why disguise it? o‿O
  11. [17:47] =-= HeartAway is now known as JamesHeart
  12. [17:59] -->| Toomai (~SmashHQ@Toomai.engineer.gamesurge) has joined #sw
  13. [17:59] =-= Mode #sw +o Toomai by ChanServ
  14. [17:59] =-= Toomai has changed the topic to “The previous topic was old.”
  15. [18:04] Conny LOL
  16. [18:04] Conny pls +o (`･ω･´)
  17. [18:05] |<-- Scr7 has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: )
  18. [18:14] |<-- Icemario has left irc.gamesurge.net (Ping timeout)
  19. [18:32] -->| turb (~turb@97-117-225-62.phnx.qwest.net) has joined #sw
  20. [18:35] |<-- JamesHeart has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 32.0.3/20140923175406])
  21. [18:38] -->| Blazeth (~Blazeth@ip68-103-28-138.ks.ok.cox.net) has joined #sw
  22. [18:51] |<-- StarCraft has left irc.gamesurge.net (Ping timeout)
  23. [18:51] |<-- turb has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: ')
  24. [18:54] -->| StarCraft (~chatzilla@h225.219.130.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net) has joined #sw
  25. [18:58] =-= Toomai has changed the topic to “http://www.ssbwiki.com/SmashWiki_talk:IRC#Recent_activity”
  26. [19:07] -->| NOTtoast (mibbit@c-68-61-52-94.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #sw
  27. [19:08] -->| Rtzxy (mibbit@104.139.57.233) has joined #sw
  28. [19:08] Rtzxy Hello.
  29. [19:08] NOTtoast Hello, people
  30. [19:09] NOTtoast This is peppy. All systems go.
  31. [19:10] NOTtoast Keep in mind, I am not anyone by the name of toast.
  32. [19:10] Rtzxy …OK…
  33. [19:10] NOTtoast (( _ _ ))..zzzZZ
  34. [19:10] |<-- NOTtoast has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  35. [19:11] Rtzxy
  36. [19:11] Rtzxy Imma go now.
  37. [19:11] |<-- Rtzxy has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  38. [19:30] Conny sup
  39. [19:30] -->| MeatBall104 (mibbit@99-5-233-244.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net) has joined #sw
  40. [19:34] Brightvola See topic.
  41. [19:35] Conny nice (`･ω･´)
  42. [19:48] |<-- MeatBall104 has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  43. [19:50] Brightvola He didn't answer my inquiry.
  44. [19:51] StarCraft Toomai: Ok I know that yes, I have been kinda mean to Brian when he's on this channel.
  45. [19:51] StarCraft But he's not so nice back.
  46. [19:52] StarCraft I... I can't really stand his attitude.
  47. [19:52] Toomai Then simply ignore him.
  48. [19:52] Brightvola From what I see, Brian usually starts off conversations on a negative note and diverts it into an argument. That being said, you shouldn't be turning on autopilot and harassing him every time he comes on the channel.
  49. [19:53] Brightvola (That goes for you spamming "raise your dongers" yesterday until he left.)
  50. [19:54] DoctorPain99 If you spam raise your dongers on this chat, you will be in ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ ᵗʳᵒᵘᵇᶫᵉ
  51. [19:56] Toomai StarCraft: The main problem you seem to have is that you haven't yet fully learned when to leave a discussion be. Brian dislikes how you historically choose bad times to enter or interrupt conversations. You just need to try and keep that in check.
  52. [19:58] StarCraft Toomai: The other thing I don't like is that he seems to talk on hating Brawl/SSB4 more than he talks about Melee.
  53. [19:59] StarCraft Seeing how the former is one of my favorite games and the second former to be one of my favorite game.
  54. [19:59] Toomai Nobody likes that, but angering him isn't going to help.
  55. [19:59] Conny sup
  56. [20:00] StarCraft While I don't mind him criticizing a game, he just goes so extreme about it.
  57. [20:00] StarCraft And even says some untrue stuff some times.
  58. [20:01] Toomai If everyone ignores him, he'll eventually go away.
  59. [20:01] DoctorPain99 LOL
  60. [20:01] DoctorPain99 LMFAO
  61. [20:02] DoctorPain99 You have got to be really naive to think that
  62. [20:02] Toomai Well either he goes away himself, or "If you keep bringing the topic back up, especially to other users who came on after the initial turn down of the topic, you will be kicked from the channel".
  63. [20:02] DoctorPain99 He was
  64. [20:03] DoctorPain99 and OT temp banned him
  65. [20:03] DoctorPain99 and then he came back
  66. [20:03] DoctorPain99 and did the same shit
  67. [20:03] StarCraft Did the same things again.
  68. [20:03] DoctorPain99 just when OT wasn't looking
  69. [20:03] Toomai Well I intend to actually do something about it next time it happens, to people on both sides of the argument.
  70. [20:03] DoctorPain99 because no one else will ban him
  71. [20:05] Brightvola Meatball not going to address what he did yesterday...?
  72. [20:06] =-= Toomai is now known as IAmOot
  73. [20:08] StarCraft Even Sage kinda once gave a warning.
  74. [20:08] Conny ^ this
  75. [20:14] -->| scr7 (mibbit@thejoneshome.plus.com) has joined #sw
  76. [20:16] =-= IAmOot is now known as Toomai
  77. [20:18] |<-- scr7 has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: l)
  78. [20:18] -->| UnknownHedgehog (mibbit@208.118.153.191) has joined #sw
  79. [20:28] |<-- UnknownHedgehog has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  80. [20:32] |<-- Toomai has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: σοιξαντε)
  81. [20:37] -->| |3rian (mibbit@CMU-882826.WV.CC.CMU.EDU) has joined #sw
  82. [20:47] DoctorPain99 Toomai's gone ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  83. [20:47] DoctorPain99 Let's riot ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  84. [20:48] StarCraft This time I'm going to stay back. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  85. [20:49] StarCraft I don't want someone to report me for my behavior.
  86. [20:49] DoctorPain99 Conny: ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ GOYBALL ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  87. [20:49] Conny LOL
  88. [20:49] Conny ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ GOYBALL OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  89. [20:49] DoctorPain99 ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ LET'S GET BANNED ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  90. [20:50] DoctorPain99 >GE
  91. [20:50] Conny >GE
  92. [20:50] StarCraft Okay if you wish. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  93. [20:50] Conny ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ +o OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  94. [20:50] DoctorPain99 I blame Scr7 for this ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  95. [20:51] DoctorPain99 He went :|O on mariowiki IRC ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  96. [21:03] StarCraft Good thing OT left.
  97. [21:04] StarCraft Otherwise he might be on our case.
  98. [21:07] DoctorPain99 yeah lol
  99. [21:07] DoctorPain99 now we only have to worry about Toomai
  100. [21:07] Conny ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  101. [21:07] Conny why is toomai always so like
  102. [21:07] |3rian Brightvola
  103. [21:07] |3rian Falcon's f smash
  104. [21:08] Conny mad when he's here LOL
  105. [21:08] |3rian can outspace Marth's
  106. [21:08] DoctorPain99 Toomai goes :|O
  107. [21:09] DoctorPain99 He really doesn't know how to handle user situations
  108. [21:09] DoctorPain99 at all
  109. [21:09] DoctorPain99 ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  110. [21:15] Brightvola Yes?
  111. [21:15] |3rian Brightvola
  112. [21:15] |3rian falcon's f smash
  113. [21:15] |3rian outspaces Marth's
  114. [21:15] Brightvola I find that very hard to believe.
  115. [21:16] |3rian that's hilarious, but also indicative how much work was made to ensure Marth is bad
  116. [21:16] |3rian brightvola in smash 4
  117. [21:16] |3rian not in Melee
  118. [21:16] |3rian NEVER
  119. [21:16] |3rian in melee
  120. [21:16] Brightvola Oh.
  121. [21:16] |3rian Marth is good in melee
  122. [21:16] |3rian like in sash 4
  123. [21:16] Brightvola I thought you were talking about Melee and I was like "new technology?!"
  124. [21:16] |3rian you can disrespect Marth's reach now
  125. [21:16] |3rian Marth's whole game design is that if you disrespect his reach
  126. [21:16] |3rian you lose
  127. [21:17] =-= Conny was booted from #sw by Brightvola (You have played goyball incorrectly. :|O)
  128. [21:17] =-= Brightvola was booted from #sw by ChanServ (That user is protected.)
  129. [21:17] -->| Conny (~ConArtist@pool-71-127-228-139.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) has joined #sw
  130. [21:17] Conny toomai gets 2mad ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  131. [21:17] Conny LOL
  132. [21:17] -->| Brightvola (znc@ridley.fastlizard4.org) has joined #sw
  133. [21:17] Brightvola And this is why I don't do anything to people.
  134. [21:17] Brightvola Because ChanServ kicks me every time.
  135. [21:17] Brightvola !8 Why do you have no tech skill because you are Nintendo?
  136. [21:17] ChanServ Brightvola: Are you mad?!
  137. [21:18] Brightvola |3rian: Can I see a gif or something at least?
  138. [21:18] Brightvola Then I'll go back to not playing Marth.
  139. [21:20] |3rian Brightvola
  140. [21:20] |3rian http://www.gfycat.com/ReasonableSlimyCopperbutterfly
  141. [21:20] |3rian how can this
  142. [21:20] |3rian be a good character?
  143. [21:21] Brightvola Falcon moves forward during the forward smash.
  144. [21:21] Brightvola Like an entire step.
  145. [21:21] Brightvola Check to see if it's not a customization.
  146. [21:21] |3rian Brightvola doesnt matter
  147. [21:22] |3rian Marth leans his body forward too
  148. [21:22] |3rian reach is reach
  149. [21:26] |<-- Blazeth has left irc.gamesurge.net (EOF from client)
  150. [21:35] |<-- FastLizard4 has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: Look at me still talking when there's science to do!)
  151. [21:36] -->| FastLizard4 (fastlizard@ridley.fastlizard4.org) has joined #sw
  152. [21:41] DoctorPain99 FASTLIZARD4?!??!?!?!?!?!?
  153. [21:42] FastLizard4 Didn't mean to kill irssi
  154. [21:49] -->| Toomai (~SmashHQ@Toomai.engineer.gamesurge) has joined #sw
  155. [21:49] =-= Mode #sw +o Toomai by ChanServ
  156. [21:49] |3rian Toomai
  157. [21:49] |3rian something
  158. [21:49] |3rian inside my body
  159. [21:49] |3rian has exploded and died
  160. [21:49] |3rian http://www.gfycat.com/ReasonableSlimyCopperbutterfly
  161. [21:50] |3rian this makes no sense
  162. [21:51] Toomai From a non-biased person's standpoint, it makes complete sense visually. Conceptually, it could go either way.
  163. [21:51] -->| Littlesquirtle (mibbit@c-68-61-52-94.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #sw
  164. [21:52] Littlesquirtle Wait, why does it say I'm chatting?
  165. [21:52] Littlesquirtle ?
  166. [21:53] |<-- Littlesquirtle has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  167. [21:53] |3rian no it doesnt toomai
  168. [21:53] |3rian dont u understand marth by now
  169. [21:53] |3rian given how im here
  170. [21:54] Toomai A move does not hit when it does not look like it should hit. What's the problem?
  171. [21:56] |3rian toomai no one should be able to disrespect marth's reach
  172. [21:56] |3rian it's bad game design
  173. [21:57] Toomai As a Marth main, you are biased.
  174. [21:57] Toomai I'm not trying to imply I'm not biased, but I'd think it would be a bit less.
  175. [21:58] |3rian Toomai as a game designed
  176. [21:58] |3rian designer
  177. [21:58] |3rian you should understand just as well
  178. [21:58] |3rian given what Marth is supposed to be
  179. [21:58] Toomai As a game designer, I would put hitboxes to match animation.
  180. [21:58] Toomai And things just happen from there.
  181. [21:59] |3rian No no no Toomai
  182. [21:59] |3rian if you are desiging a fighting game
  183. [21:59] |3rian ur supposed to make ur character actually work
  184. [21:59] |3rian If Marth is a character that should outspace everyone
  185. [21:59] |3rian and someone outspaces him
  186. [21:59] |3rian you failed
  187. [21:59] Conny LOL
  188. [21:59] Toomai Then maybe your first assumption is incorrect.
  189. [22:00] Toomai Besides, should not every character have at least one tool to deal with an outspacer?
  190. [22:00] |3rian Toomai well that's what Marth's thing has been
  191. [22:00] |3rian since
  192. [22:00] |3rian Melee
  193. [22:00] |3rian so i fail to see how i could be wrong
  194. [22:00] |3rian Toomai yes
  195. [22:00] |3rian it's called player ability
  196. [22:00] Toomai Well, SSB4 is not Melee, that's your first problem.
  197. [22:00] |3rian Marth's moves have low duration
  198. [22:01] |3rian and considerable endlag
  199. [22:01] |3rian so the way to deal with Marth has been defined since day 1:
  200. [22:01] |3rian wait for him to miss
  201. [22:01] |3rian then hit him
  202. [22:01] |3rian unfortunately
  203. [22:01] |3rian people are SUPER DUMB
  204. [22:01] |3rian and try to challenge it outright
  205. [22:01] Toomai Relying on your opponent to make a mistake is bad game design.
  206. [22:01] |3rian toomai no it isnt
  207. [22:02] |3rian because it's like rock paper scissors
  208. [22:02] |3rian can you assume that I will always pick the option that will beat yours?
  209. [22:02] |3rian no
  210. [22:02] Toomai Yes.
  211. [22:02] |3rian you cannot toomai
  212. [22:02] |3rian how is it possible I will be able to read someone just as good as me
  213. [22:02] |3rian 100% of the time?
  214. [22:02] Toomai The optimal way to play any game is to assume your opponent will always make the perfect move.
  215. [22:03] Toomai There are exceptions of course.
  216. [22:04] |3rian Toomai except people will never know what the right choice is
  217. [22:04] |3rian because of 50/50 situations
  218. [22:04] |3rian fighting games
  219. [22:04] |3rian FORCE YOU to guess
  220. [22:05] |3rian But anyways back to the discussion
  221. [22:05] Toomai That was the discussion.
  222. [22:05] |3rian Marth's design is supposed to have him win
  223. [22:05] |3rian anytime someone tries to challenge his range outright
  224. [22:05] |3rian Marth LOSES
  225. [22:05] |3rian whenever he does his attack too early
  226. [22:05] |3rian or too late
  227. [22:06] Toomai You are complaining about your favourite character being nerfed in terms that I believe the developers hold little if any interest in.
  228. [22:07] |3rian Toomai
  229. [22:07] |3rian under what terms do they view marth with then?
  230. [22:07] |3rian because his actual toolset now
  231. [22:07] |3rian is so bad
  232. [22:07] Toomai I think they view Marth as "has tippers". Nothing more.
  233. [22:07] |3rian for what he is designed to do
  234. [22:07] |3rian Toomai well they made it super hard
  235. [22:08] |3rian and super unrewarding to land tippers
  236. [22:08] |3rian so
  237. [22:08] |3rian even by those terms
  238. [22:08] |3rian (which are just simpler ways to state the terms i presented btw)
  239. [22:08] |3rian Marth is poorly designed
  240. [22:09] Toomai I'm not attempting to defend any changes made to characters. (Many of them I dislike.) I'm just saying that they simply have a completely different thought process than you do, and so moaning about it is kind of pointless.
  241. [22:11] |3rian but toomai if those changes are stupid
  242. [22:11] |3rian what's the motivation for doing stupid things
  243. [22:11] Toomai They're stupid from your point of view, but apparently not theirs.
  244. [22:12] |3rian Toomai it's in the definition of stupid
  245. [22:12] |3rian that a stupid person thinks he's so smart
  246. [22:12] |3rian so we cant use their own opinions of themselves
  247. [22:12] |3rian to judge their stupidity
  248. [22:13] Toomai No, but we can assume that the more feedback is given during development (playtesters etc), the less likely that we can attribute changes to "stupidity".
  249. [22:13] Toomai The problem is we don't know how much feedback was given.
  250. [22:16] |3rian Toomai someone was inevitably stupid though no?
  251. [22:16] |3rian like I see
  252. [22:16] |3rian 0
  253. [22:16] |3rian rational thought
  254. [22:16] |3rian behind Marth's changes
  255. [22:16] |3rian like even why i try to be as unbiased as possible
  256. [22:17] |3rian i see 0 reason
  257. [22:17] Toomai We cannot know what the developer's metagame was like, and that would be a significant factor in everything.
  258. [22:18] Toomai Maybe just being a developer and knowing the hitboxes without having to learn made people too good at Marth.
  259. [22:18] Toomai (just putting ideas out of nowhere here)
  260. [22:19] |3rian Toomai Marth is a scrub slayer you know that right?
  261. [22:19] Toomai Personally, what I think is most likely is that they redid Marth's model and thought "hmm, his sword's a bit shorter, oh well".
  262. [22:20] |3rian how can they pass that shit off?
  263. [22:20] |3rian that's literally
  264. [22:20] |3rian not
  265. [22:20] |3rian doing
  266. [22:20] |3rian your job
  267. [22:20] Toomai Their job was not "make a balanced fighting game". Their job was "make a Smash Bros. game".
  268. [22:20] |3rian Toomao
  269. [22:20] Toomai That's how I see it.
  270. [22:20] |3rian toomai
  271. [22:21] |3rian "for both casual and hardcore players"
  272. [22:21] |3rian no?
  273. [22:21] |3rian this means
  274. [22:21] |3rian you MUST commit to making a workable fighting game
  275. [22:21] |3rian otherwise you have lied to your customers
  276. [22:21] =-= Sage is now known as Starman
  277. [22:22] Toomai One character being not what you want doesn't make it not a "workable fighting game".
  278. [22:22] -->| MeatBall104 (mibbit@99-5-233-244.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net) has joined #sw
  279. [22:22] Starman Smash 4 can still be played at a competitive level
  280. [22:22] Starman MeatBall104: fyi, saying "uwu" is not "spam"
  281. [22:23] MeatBall104 Sorry. I pretty much construed it as such since I was hearing it a lot.
  282. [22:23] MeatBall104 I stand corrected then...
  283. [22:23] |3rian yea Starman but it looks really bad
  284. [22:23] Toomai It can however be considered part of the spammy faces package.
  285. [22:23] |3rian not to mention it lacks depth
  286. [22:23] Toomai (I think "uwu" is a face, right?)
  287. [22:23] |3rian compared to what other fighting games
  288. [22:23] |3rian Also toomai Marth is an example
  289. [22:23] Starman i only ever use it in response to something
  290. [22:23] Toomai Okay.
  291. [22:24] |3rian but plenty of other characters have similar changes
  292. [22:24] Toomai If you think Smash Bros. lacks depth, your opinion is invalid.
  293. [22:24] |3rian so the philosophy applies to the game
  294. [22:24] Toomai Period.
  295. [22:24] |3rian Toomai
  296. [22:24] |3rian smash 4 lacks depth compared to fighting games
  297. [22:24] |3rian Melee has depth
  298. [22:24] |3rian comparable to other fighting games
  299. [22:24] Toomai Well it's a good thing it's not supposed to be compared to normal fighting games then, eh?
  300. [22:25] Brightvola MeatBall104: Please answer my inquiry.
  301. [22:25] StarCraft
  302. [22:25] |3rian Brawl has more depth than smash 4, but that depth is in areas that require skill sets most fighting game players dont have
  303. [22:25] MeatBall104 What inquiry?
  304. [22:25] |3rian Toomai ive played enough smash 4 and seen the sets
  305. [22:25] |3rian and I see even alot of the good competitive elements of brawl (like glide tossing) has been removed
  306. [22:25] Brightvola I asked you why you contributed to a part of the spam yesterday by saying "ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ" even though you denounced it today.
  307. [22:26] Toomai See this is part of the problem. Glitches get removed and players complain depth is gone.
  308. [22:26] MeatBall104 Oh that? That was only once.
  309. [22:26] Brightvola Twice.
  310. [22:26] Brightvola Well, one scenario.
  311. [22:26] Starman MeatBall104: that doesn't change the fact that you did it
  312. [22:26] MeatBall104 Yeah, but most of the time I'm not a part of it.
  313. [22:26] Brightvola Wait, Smash 4 has less depth than Brawl? Did I hear that right?
  314. [22:27] |3rian Brightvola so far I think so
  315. [22:27] Brightvola Why?
  316. [22:27] Toomai Because all the exploits so far don't help you win.
  317. [22:27] |3rian because it's still defensive as fuck
  318. [22:27] Brightvola So doesn't that indicate equal depth?
  319. [22:27] |3rian and removes alot of cross ups
  320. [22:28] DoctorPain99 man y'all are going all sorta of :|O
  321. [22:28] |3rian Brightvola approaches are HARDER
  322. [22:28] |3rian to do in smash 4
  323. [22:28] Brightvola Not if you have projectiles.
  324. [22:28] |3rian and the characters are worse
  325. [22:28] |3rian no Brightvola
  326. [22:28] Brightvola At least, that's my own experience.
  327. [22:28] |3rian if you have a projectile
  328. [22:28] |3rian you use it to keep people out
  329. [22:28] |3rian no one has Falco's lasers
  330. [22:28] |3rian so no projectile can be used aggressively
  331. [22:28] Brightvola Mario's fireballs?
  332. [22:29] |3rian no Brightvola
  333. [22:29] |3rian they arent even close to PM pills
  334. [22:30] Toomai Would you say that part of the problem is the bad selection of stages?
  335. [22:30] Toomai In which case the Wii U version may be slightly better?
  336. [22:30] |3rian Toomai that too most defintiely
  337. [22:30] |3rian FD only
  338. [22:30] |3rian takes away
  339. [22:30] |3rian alot of depth
  340. [22:30] Brightvola Approaches are harder. I fireball out of a full hop, and keep them in shield, or force them to roll at me.
  341. [22:31] |3rian Yea Brightvola
  342. [22:31] |3rian that proves my point
  343. [22:31] |3rian but you arent the 1 approaching
  344. [22:31] Brightvola Really? I usually move at them while doing it unless they're being campy.
  345. [22:31] Toomai It doesn't matter who's approaching if the result is two players near each other.
  346. [22:31] |3rian Toomai yes it does
  347. [22:32] |3rian because 1 player ends up having better positioning
  348. [22:32] |3rian I think you guys have the wrong idea of approaching
  349. [22:32] |3rian Approaching =/= go closer
  350. [22:32] Toomai That is literally what the term means.
  351. [22:33] |3rian approaching means you put yourself in situations where you have better positioning
  352. [22:33] |3rian Toomai at a very very low simple level
  353. [22:33] Toomai So you actually mean "position improving".
  354. [22:33] |3rian toomai yes
  355. [22:33] |3rian you always want to optimize
  356. [22:33] |3rian the risk/reward of your options
  357. [22:33] Toomai Because by your definition you could approach by running away (if that's a better position), and that just makes no semantic sense.
  358. [22:33] |3rian and limit the number of options your opponent does
  359. [22:33] Brightvola So when I'm in the air throwing fireballs at some straggler on the other side, forcing them to do bad things that lead into huge punishes, that's not better positioning?
  360. [22:34] |3rian Brightvola that is called counter commiting
  361. [22:34] |3rian also called "bait and wait"
  362. [22:34] |3rian toomai i suppose so
  363. [22:34] |3rian but that situation is when you already approached poorly
  364. [22:34] |3rian the underlying principle
  365. [22:34] |3rian is the approaching means you do proactive actions
  366. [22:35] |3rian FORCING an approach means you are doing REACTIVE actions
  367. [22:35] |3rian (also Marth is TERRBLE) at both things i have described
  368. [22:35] |3rian that automatically makes him bad
  369. [22:35] |3rian since those are technically the only 2 choices you have in neutral
  370. [22:36] |<-- Toomai has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: Ping timeout)
  371. [22:40] DoctorPain99 |3rian are you having fun being in ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ ᵗʳᵒᵘᵇᶫᵉ?
  372. [22:40] |3rian I have no idea what that means
  373. [22:40] |3rian in this context
  374. [22:40] DoctorPain99 It means that you are in ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ ᵗʳᵒᵘᵇᶫᵉ
  375. [22:41] Conny LOL
  376. [22:41] |3rian why?
  377. [22:41] DoctorPain99 Because
  378. [22:41] DoctorPain99 you didn't go goy
  379. [22:41] Starman |3rian: i'm pretty sure nintendo wasn't thinking of comparing smash 4 to other fighting games when they made it
  380. [22:41] Conny ^ this
  381. [22:41] |3rian well that has nothing to do
  382. [22:42] Conny ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ ᵗʳᵒᵘᵇᶫᵉ
  383. [22:42] |3rian with my discussion conny doctorpain99
  384. [22:42] |3rian so i suggest you shut up
  385. [22:42] |3rian Starman I suppose
  386. [22:42] Conny LOL
  387. [22:42] |3rian but their target audience
  388. [22:42] DoctorPain99 |3rian It's the truth though
  389. [22:42] |3rian was "inbetween casual and hardcore"
  390. [22:42] DoctorPain99 ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  391. [22:42] |3rian so assuming they werent lying
  392. [22:43] Starman I think they did fine; it might not be on Melee's level, but it's still servicable
  393. [22:43] |3rian they had to design a real fighting game Starman
  394. [22:43] |3rian Starman no
  395. [22:43] Conny >real fighting game
  396. [22:43] Conny smash is a party game
  397. [22:43] |3rian No it's a fighting game
  398. [22:43] DoctorPain99 ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ PARTY OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  399. [22:43] Conny it's a party game
  400. [22:44] Conny ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ ᵗʳᵒᵘᵇᶫᵉ
  401. [22:44] |3rian no it's not
  402. [22:44] Conny yes it is
  403. [22:44] |3rian no
  404. [22:44] Conny yes
  405. [22:44] DoctorPain99 Yeah it is ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  406. [22:44] Starman |3rian: well, that's your opinion
  407. [22:44] DoctorPain99 It's a fighting game
  408. [22:44] |3rian Starman
  409. [22:44] Starman it's not my fault you only see things from melee's perspective
  410. [22:44] DoctorPain99 but it's also a party game ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  411. [22:44] |3rian it is not
  412. [22:44] Conny LOL http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-/62652848
  413. [22:44] Conny it's a party game
  414. [22:44] |3rian There are objective things
  415. [22:44] DoctorPain99 Even Cosmo said it's a party game ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  416. [22:44] |3rian you can use
  417. [22:44] DoctorPain99 and I'm sorry
  418. [22:44] Conny http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/jun/21/sakurai-says-smash-bros-isnt-fighting-game-completely-different-label-talks-game-development-fighting-genre-and-value-unpredictability/
  419. [22:44] |<-- OrangeBooloon has left irc.gamesurge.net (Ping timeout)
  420. [22:44] Conny ^ here are your sources
  421. [22:44] DoctorPain99 I'm taking his word over yours ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  422. [22:45] |3rian to judge whether something is a competitive fighting game or not
  423. [22:45] |3rian and 1 such standard
  424. [22:45] |3rian is David Sirlin's Playing to Win
  425. [22:45] Conny melee was never made to be competitive
  426. [22:45] Conny so it's a party game LOL
  427. [22:45] DoctorPain99 ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  428. [22:45] |3rian Well Doctorpain99 Conny
  429. [22:45] |3rian here's the problem
  430. [22:45] StarCraft .
  431. [22:45] Conny ,
  432. [22:45] DoctorPain99 !
  433. [22:45] Conny
  434. [22:46] |3rian Sakurai says it's purely a party game
  435. [22:46] |3rian ok
  436. [22:46] StarCraft \
  437. [22:46] DoctorPain99 /
  438. [22:46] DoctorPain99 / > \
  439. [22:46] |3rian but he also said he intended the game for "inbetween casuals and hardcore"
  440. [22:46] =-= Mode #sw +m by Starman
  441. [22:46] DoctorPain99 He also goes :|O
  442. [22:46] =-= Mode #sw +irDc by Starman
  443. [22:46] Starman what
  444. [22:46] DoctorPain99 LOL
  445. [22:46] =-= Mode #sw -irDc by Starman
  446. [22:47] DoctorPain99 remove those lol
  447. [22:47] DoctorPain99 kk
  448. [22:47] =-= Mode #sw -v DoctorPain99 by Starman
  449. [22:47] =-= Mode #sw +v |3rian by Starman
  450. [22:47] <--| DoctorPain99 has left #sw
  451. [22:47] =-= Mode #sw +v Brightvola by Starman
  452. [22:47] -->| DoctorPain99 (doctorpain@phazon.fastlizard4.org) has joined #sw
  453. [22:47] =-= Mode #sw +v DoctorPain99 by ChanServ
  454. [22:47] Starman |3rian: go on
  455. [22:47] |3rian Starman Doctorpain99 bascially
  456. [22:47] |3rian if you want to take sakurai's words over mind
  457. [22:47] |3rian mine*
  458. [22:47] |3rian you have to accept he's a liar
  459. [22:48] |3rian since calling it "a party games"
  460. [22:48] |3rian limits the audience to casuals
  461. [22:48] |3rian but he also said he would make the game for both casuals and competitive players like me
  462. [22:48] |3rian so he lied
  463. [22:48] |3rian liars are not dependable people
  464. [22:49] Starman The thing is
  465. [22:49] Starman Melee was *intended* to be a party game
  466. [22:49] |<-- StarCraft has left irc.gamesurge.net (Signed off)
  467. [22:50] |3rian Starman but it ended up being a competitive game as well
  468. [22:50] |3rian it's very possible to have a game be both competitive
  469. [22:50] Starman due in part to people finding exploits and setting up certain rulesets
  470. [22:50] |3rian and for parties
  471. [22:50] -->| StarCraft (~chatzilla@h225.219.130.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net) has joined #sw
  472. [22:50] |3rian Melee is 1 such example
  473. [22:51] Starman Later Smash Bros. games don't have those same exploits because they're built differently
  474. [22:51] |3rian Starman sure
  475. [22:51] |3rian with the intent
  476. [22:51] |3rian to ENSURE
  477. [22:51] |3rian the game is not competitive
  478. [22:52] |3rian but we were told the game was supposed to be competitive
  479. [22:52] |3rian and my claim is that
  480. [22:52] |3rian by objective standards
  481. [22:52] |3rian set by a party that isnt affliated with Melee
  482. [22:52] |3rian smash 4 fails
  483. [22:52] -->| Sunscreen (~AndChat35@66.87.128.116) has joined #sw
  484. [22:52] |<-- MeatBall104 has left irc.gamesurge.net (Signed off)
  485. [22:53] Starman The problem with that is that they only considered the speed of Melee, rather than the engine
  486. [22:54] Starman And as for competitive standards
  487. [22:54] Starman people have different standards
  488. [22:55] Starman All they were trying to do is strike a healthy balance between casual players and competitive players, like they say
  489. [22:56] |3rian Starman no you cant have different standards
  490. [22:56] |3rian otherwise
  491. [22:56] |3rian every thing is good
  492. [22:56] |3rian and everything cant be good
  493. [22:56] |3rian and speed is not what makes Melee competitive
  494. [22:56] |3rian it's the options and interactions that make a game competitive
  495. [22:56] Starman It doesn't matter to them if they didn't satisfy the standards of some people, as long as the majority of buyers enjoy the game
  496. [22:57] |3rian Starman read this
  497. [22:57] |3rian http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2gi37q/smash_4_compared_to_melee_or_brawl/ckjcfod
  498. [22:58] |3rian and Starman
  499. [22:58] |3rian the fact that they still lied
  500. [22:58] Starman and i don't think they built it differently to ensure it "wasn't competitive"
  501. [22:58] |3rian Starman it is
  502. [22:58] Starman They just didn't think about the exploits that were in Melee
  503. [22:58] |3rian you cant approach
  504. [22:58] |3rian you cant interact with people
  505. [22:58] |3rian interaction with people
  506. [22:58] |3rian IS DISCOURAGED
  507. [22:59] |3rian in brawl and smash 4
  508. [22:59] |3rian because defensive options are too strong
  509. [23:03] Starman We still have offensive options
  510. [23:03] |3rian yea but they suck
  511. [23:03] |3rian Starman the number doesnt matter
  512. [23:04] |3rian THE EFFECTIVENESS matter
  513. [23:04] Starman Well, I have trades to get to, so I'll end this discussion for now
  514. [23:04] =-= Mode #sw -m by Starman
  515. [23:04] =-= Mode #sw -vv |3rian Brightvola by Starman
  516. [23:05] |<-- |3rian has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  517. [23:05] StarCraft FINALLY
  518. [23:06] StarCraft
  519. [23:06] Starman I was trying to have a serious discussion
  520. [23:06] DoctorPain99 ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ MOD STARCRAFT OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
  521. [23:06] Starman you guys weren't helping that
  522. [23:06] DoctorPain99 >serious discussion
  523. [23:06] DoctorPain99 >with |3rian
  524. [23:06] Starman i know it may sound farfetched, but still
  525. [23:06] Brightvola Tell Toomai to give me access level 250.
  526. [23:07] StarCraft Now the only thing to do is to GET DAD TO FIX THE :|OING PRINTER.
  527. [23:07] Brightvola I actually do a fair bit of learning from |3rian, to be honest.
  528. [23:07] DoctorPain99 :|OING
  529. [23:07] Starman and i almost typed farfetch'd
  530. [23:07] DoctorPain99 nice verb
  531. [23:07] Brightvola It's just his attitude that's the problem.
  532. [23:07] Conny >serious discussion
  533. [23:07] Conny LOOOOOL
  534. [23:07] DoctorPain99 LOL
  535. [23:07] Conny if believe you can have a serious discussion with brian, you must be insane
  536. [23:07] DoctorPain99 You must be :|Oing
  537. [23:07] Brightvola Access level 250?
  538. [23:07] Starman i can't take you guys seriously
  539. [23:08] Starman not when you do this
  540. [23:08] DoctorPain99 That makes us feel
  541. [23:08] DoctorPain99 like
  542. [23:08] DoctorPain99 we're in
  543. [23:08] DoctorPain99 ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ ᵗʳᵒᵘᵇᶫᵉ
  544. [23:09] Conny >Iinb4 serious trouble
  545. [23:09] DoctorPain99 ninja'd
  546. [23:09] Conny LOL YOU STOLEE MY JOKE ( `･ω･´)
  547. [23:09] DoctorPain99 LOL
  548. [23:09] DoctorPain99 I DID
  549. [23:09] StarCraft Starman: One thing I have to say in that discussion is that I think Brian was being mature this time.
  550. [23:09] Conny fucking bad ( `･ω･´)
  551. [23:09] DoctorPain99 I AM UNORIGINAL
  552. [23:09] Conny ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ ᵗʳᵒᵘᵇᶫᵉ
  553. [23:09] DoctorPain99 Conny: I steal all your jokes though
  554. [23:09] Conny lol
  555. [23:09] Conny but you make better ones :|O
  556. [23:09] DoctorPain99 X has no tech skill beacuse they are nintendo
  557. [23:09] DoctorPain99 X goes :|O
  558. [23:10] DoctorPain99 LOL
  559. [23:10] -->| MeatBall104 (mibbit@99-5-233-244.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net) has joined #sw
  560. [23:10] DoctorPain99 what is my joke?
  561. [23:10] DoctorPain99 source?
  562. [23:10] Conny yes
  563. [23:10] DoctorPain99 LOL
  564. [23:10] Conny we use source more than like
  565. [23:10] DoctorPain99 that joke is fucking bad
  566. [23:10] Conny every other joke LOL
  567. [23:10] DoctorPain99 as in bad-ass
  568. [23:10] DoctorPain99 as in :|O bad-ass
  569. [23:10] Conny more like
  570. [23:10] Conny @|O bad-ass
  571. [23:10] DoctorPain99 Did I come up with fucking bad as in bad-ass?
  572. [23:10] DoctorPain99 I think I did
  573. [23:10] Conny ( `･ω･´ )
  574. [23:10] Conny yes
  575. [23:10] Conny remember
  576. [23:10] DoctorPain99 because we had a war on the chesnaught page
  577. [23:10] Conny the gallery of fucking bad(ass)?
  578. [23:11] DoctorPain99 and that was my "compromise"
  579. [23:11] DoctorPain99 LOL
  580. [23:11] Conny LOL
  581. [23:11] DoctorPain99 Gallery of fucking bad was Scr7
  582. [23:11] Conny dude that was hilarious as shit
  583. [23:11] DoctorPain99 LOL IKR
  584. [23:11] Conny LOL
  585. [23:11] Conny i need to update that chesnaught page though
  586. [23:11] Conny pls remind me (`･ω･´ )
  587. [23:12] |<-- Conny has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: (`･ω･´ ))
  588. [23:14] |<-- MeatBall104 has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  589. [23:17] StarCraft I think everything is peace and quiet now.
  590. [23:17] StarCraft Good.
  591. [23:47] Sunscreen puts on the radio to full blast
  592. [23:54] -->| |3rian (mibbit@CMU-882826.WV.CC.CMU.EDU) has joined #sw
  593. [00:04] Brightvola |3rian: Yes, M@V is totally the campy non-interactive guy here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFzMdPgInyo&t=2m30s
  594. [00:05] |3rian Brightvola
  595. [00:05] |3rian we hate him so much
  596. [00:05] |3rian we want him to get frustrated by it
  597. [00:05] |3rian and he gives up
  598. [00:05] Brightvola
  599. [00:07] Brightvola Well, that's nice.
  600. [00:12] |3rian Brightvola m@v is ironically easy to frustrate though
  601. [00:12] |3rian like if you win
  602. [00:12] |3rian and he thinks he's better than you
  603. [00:12] |3rian win a game*
  604. [00:12] |3rian he's probably gonna lose game 3
  605. [00:12] |3rian that's how i did it
  606. [00:12] Brightvola That's me. :<
  607. [00:18] |<-- StarCraft has left irc.gamesurge.net (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 33.0/20141011015303])
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