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Str/Mag Split Chatlog 1/14

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  1. [2:27:35 PM] Arch: also sorta in line with gaiden but also thinking about str/mag split too: what if tomes didn't have weapon weight but cost MP instead and mana points was equivalent to str?
  2. [2:27:49 PM] Arch: so mages have a use for the stat, the more physically able you are the more adept at casting spells repeatedly
  3. [2:28:55 PM] BwdYeti: idk
  4. [2:29:00 PM] BwdYeti: it's not FE
  5. [2:29:10 PM] BwdYeti: re: one of the cool things in FE is magic works like normal weapons
  6. [2:29:35 PM] BwdYeti: which both deals with 'linear warriors/quadratic wizards', and is very unique flavorwise
  7. [2:30:02 PM] BwdYeti: and also con is less important for mages, there's not much reason for them to not want super low con so they can be easily rescue dropped onto things to murder them
  8. [2:30:06 PM] BwdYeti: otherwise a neat idea
  9. [2:30:10 PM] Arch: [s]we'll never win[/s]
  10. [2:30:23 PM] Arch: well then keep weight then
  11. [2:30:38 PM] BwdYeti: the first issue still exists but yeah
  12. [2:30:40 PM] BwdYeti: neat idea at least
  13. [2:31:08 PM] BwdYeti: [s]tomes have uses and mp costs hue hue[/s]
  14. [2:32:07 PM] BwdYeti: in the realm of straight up stupidly complex ideas, units have hp many mp, or hp/2, or something
  15. [2:32:12 PM] BwdYeti: and each turn you regen str many mp
  16. [2:32:25 PM] BwdYeti: /maybe hp*2 mp
  17. [2:32:29 PM] BwdYeti: whatever works out with the math
  18. [2:32:43 PM] Arch: lol
  19. [2:32:57 PM] BwdYeti: let's try some math, just a moment
  20. [2:33:19 PM] zahlman: >which both deals with 'linear warriors/quadratic wizards', and is very unique flavorwise‏
  21.  
  22. >implying that quadratic wizards aren't generally intentional
  23. [2:33:40 PM] BwdYeti: idk I don't generally intend for the balance to slowly shatter
  24. [2:33:42 PM] BwdYeti: that might just be me
  25. [2:35:43 PM] Vennobennu: quadratic wizards would tend to make the usefullness gap between early joining mages and late joining sages even wider
  26. [2:36:04 PM] BwdYeti: alright so this is reusing a ton of numbers for other things, which feels like terrible design but at least keeps things simple
  27.  
  28. tomes cost wgt mp to cast
  29. units have mp many hp (or maybe it works the other way, you can cast spells until your negative mp is higher than your current hp, idea)
  30. each turn you regen str/2 mp
  31. [2:36:51 PM | Edited 2:37:06 PM] BwdYeti: (or maybe it works the other way, you can cast spells until your negative mp is higher than your current hp, idea)this would be a bit easier to display too, I think, and somewhat hides that you have hp much mp *which is good because mp=hp feels stupid
  32. [2:37:17 PM] Arch: if it does the negative thing can it be HP/2?
  33. [2:37:29 PM] BwdYeti: there's no reason to I think
  34. [2:37:35 PM] BwdYeti: if you do that you can barely use S rank tomes
  35. [2:37:53 PM] BwdYeti: and you regen all your mp in two turns
  36. [2:38:42 PM] BwdYeti: I mean maybe idk, you have to actually test the balance
  37. [2:39:12 PM] BwdYeti: and again this is all
  38. [2:32 PM] BwdYeti:
  39.  
  40. <<< straight up stupidly complex ideas
  41. [2:42:37 PM] Arch: I mean it's not that bad
  42. [2:43:20 PM] BwdYeti: it could be worse
  43. [2:44:25 PM] Arch: yeah the mana thing is tricky to add
  44. [2:44:42 PM] Arch: the regen based on str is simple enough
  45. [2:44:50 PM] BwdYeti: does this actually make any positive changes to the game, if there were no units that had weapons and magic
  46. [2:45:20 PM] BwdYeti: like magic for physical units with mweapons is more correct for the flavor but it's not particularly an improvement over using res for them
  47. [2:45:36 PM] Arch: I mean that's one of the main design points of the split is hybrid classes
  48. [2:45:37 PM] BwdYeti: and do magic users need the nerf/does it impact the game
  49. [2:45:44 PM] Arch: IS just does it wrong
  50. [2:45:50 PM] BwdYeti: yeah but hybrid classes will be like 10% of classes, more or less
  51. [2:46:06 PM | Edited 2:46:07 PM] BwdYeti: any change to accomodate them should be more a plus than a minus for the normal classes
  52. [2:46:29 PM] BwdYeti: and not interfere with their gameplay unduely, nor make them useless compared to the split units
  53. [2:47:17 PM] Arch: I mean so what you mentioned in the design topic about giving magic users stats equivalent to melee units
  54. [2:47:26 PM] Arch: magic is already overpowered when at parity
  55. [2:47:41 PM] BwdYeti: a bit yeah
  56. [2:48:09 PM] BwdYeti: it's not broken but it's significant
  57. [2:48:19 PM] Arch: so a nerf to the frequency of their ability to cast more powerful spells would even things out a bit more so that mages could be more like everybody else
  58. [2:48:22 PM] BwdYeti: and at least at the moment 3 stats of nerfs seems to be enough to handle it
  59. [2:48:35 PM] BwdYeti: (and to increase magic user base con by subtracting from one of their other stats)
  60. [2:48:45 PM] BwdYeti: (which reduces their stats more and means they aren't stupidly skinny)
  61. [2:49:10 PM] BwdYeti: [2:48 PM] Arch:
  62.  
  63. <<< so a nerf to the frequency of their ability to cast more powerful spells would even things out a bit more so that mages could be more like everybody elsenone of the magic users causing problems so far in 7x have powerful spells though
  64. [2:49:16 PM] BwdYeti: oh I didn't consider this before now
  65. [2:49:25 PM] BwdYeti: it would only affect PCs, and maybe bosses
  66. [2:49:36 PM] BwdYeti: generic enemies will all die before they run out of mp
  67. [2:49:38 PM] Arch: long-rangers
  68. [2:49:48 PM] BwdYeti: and it doesn't matter when their str is to regen
  69. [2:49:53 PM] BwdYeti: `~I guess~
  70. [2:50:04 PM] Jesus-Gandalf: How about like, some kind of bitmap in the unit data
  71. [2:50:12 PM] BwdYeti: that's like 3% of total enemies but yes that is correct
  72. [2:50:12 PM] Jesus-Gandalf: And some spells have a cooldown or something
  73. [2:50:17 PM] Arch: lol
  74. [2:50:33 PM] Arch: TRS did that
  75. [2:50:36 PM] Arch: I think
  76. [2:50:36 PM] BwdYeti: basically to digress, the problem with the FE7x magic users was
  77. [2:50:44 PM] BwdYeti: because all enemy units take more hits to kill compared to IS FE
  78. [2:50:54 PM] BwdYeti: magic users are more likely to survive to enemy phase
  79. [2:51:00 PM] BwdYeti: and then they get to attack you without taking a counter attack
  80. [2:51:15 PM] BwdYeti: physical units it's no problem that they attack you on their turn because you hit them back and they die faster
  81. [2:51:33 PM] BwdYeti: /they have bows so they only attack that one time and then you have WTA against them when it's your turn again
  82. [2:51:50 PM] BwdYeti: so they can't have good stats on top of that advantage
  83. [2:52:32 PM] BwdYeti: so yeah mp 85% of the time affects PCs
  84. [2:52:37 PM] BwdYeti: 13% bosses, maybe
  85. [2:52:43 PM] BwdYeti: 2% siege tome generics :u
  86. [3:05:36 PM] Arch: [s]that's what you get for surviving, silly PC mages[/s]
  87. [3:06:29 PM] Arch: what if you had a weapon that hit MP instead
  88. [3:06:33 PM] BwdYeti: inorite
  89. [3:06:38 PM] BwdYeti: um
  90. [3:06:39 PM] Arch: so if you hit them oops enemy mage can't attack now
  91. [3:07:03 PM] Arch: or like a neutral any magic type spell that did that
  92. [3:07:08 PM] Arch: so mages could shut other mages down
  93. [3:07:09 PM] BwdYeti: well if you're using the 'can't cast magic when used mp > current hp' system
  94. [3:07:17 PM] BwdYeti: then a weapon that hits mp is called 'iron sword'
  95. [3:07:33 PM] Arch: I was just going off of it for totals
  96. [3:07:53 PM] Arch: er wait
  97. [3:08:15 PM] Arch: I didn't consider the current vs total thing for can't cast
  98. [3:08:27 PM] BwdYeti: it's kind of a neat idea
  99. [3:08:32 PM] BwdYeti: I don't know if it's a good idea but it's neat
  100. [3:08:38 PM] BwdYeti: and like the thing I said above
  101. [3:08:47 PM] BwdYeti: it hides that your mp count is actually your hp count
  102. [3:09:35 PM] Arch: the good thing about ideas is that they can be refined into better ideas
  103. [3:09:49 PM] BwdYeti: idk
  104. [3:09:56 PM] BwdYeti: they can be refined into less bad ideas
  105. [3:10:42 PM] Arch: idk I just wanna solve the str/mag split thing
  106. [3:10:56 PM] BwdYeti: [s]it can't be solved[/s]
  107. [3:11:15 PM] BwdYeti: well among all ideas I like this one the most but that doesn't mean it's good yet
  108. [3:11:22 PM] Arch: lol
  109. [3:14:44 PM] BwdYeti: [2:45 PM] BwdYeti:
  110.  
  111. <<< like magic for physical units with mweapons is more correct for the flavor but it's not particularly an improvement over using res for themthis is one of the biggest issues with any split forever, kind of
  112. [3:14:49 PM] BwdYeti: it's not insurmountable
  113. [3:15:11 PM] BwdYeti: but it makes res more useful for physical guys, like res for healing makes it more useful for mages
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