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  1. 1[20:25] <SilentVerse> tho seriously texas
  2. 01[20:25] <SilentVerse> gimme some counters to queen
  3. 01[20:25] <SilentVerse> that beat a lot of other pokes
  4. 01[20:25] <SilentVerse> :)
  5. [20:25] <Texas> fable, uxie, offensive teams
  6. [20:25] <Texas> !
  7. [20:26] <Texas> and druddi/tomb as checks
  8. 01[20:27] <SilentVerse> tomb
  9. 01[20:27] <SilentVerse> is a pretty shitty check
  10. 01[20:27] <SilentVerse> because it's only avoids being 2hkoed if it's sdef
  11. 01[20:27] <SilentVerse> and can only burn in return :(
  12. 01[20:27] <SilentVerse> fable doesn't really check that much
  13. [20:28] <Texas> sucker does a lot
  14. 01[20:28] <SilentVerse> and has to use softboiled to beat queen, which means that
  15. 01[20:28] <SilentVerse> it can't beat moltres
  16. [20:28] <Texas> and most tomb i see switch in take like 40
  17. 01[20:28] <SilentVerse> o.o
  18. [20:28] <Texas> i think ghost resists poison does it not?
  19. 01[20:28] <SilentVerse> 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Spiritomb: 168-199 (55.26 - 65.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  20. 01[20:28] <SilentVerse> well i guess
  21. 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> it's a decent check
  22. 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> but you can't really afford just checks on stall
  23. 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> especially when you're up against nidoqueen who's so difficult to wear down
  24. [20:29] <Texas> why are you using just a spiritomb to check queen if you;re running stall >_>
  25. 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> ok OBviously you can  use
  26. 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> other mons
  27. 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> i suppose cryo / slowking / spiritomb can CHECK queen
  28. 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> but that's still a mediocre at best answer to queen
  29. [20:30] <Texas> use like lickilicky, uxie and sdef slowking
  30. [20:30] <Texas> if you want to stall
  31. 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> what does
  32. 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> lickilicky beat other than nidoqueen
  33. [20:30] <Texas> sdef slowking is a p strong answer to queen i think
  34. [20:30] <Texas> moltres
  35. 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> sdef slowking is ok i guess
  36. [20:30] <Texas> other special attackers
  37. 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> nah licki loses to that too
  38. 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> >.>
  39. [20:30] <Texas> sdef slowking takes what
  40. 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> and it suffers from the same problem as clefable
  41. [20:30] <Texas> 50ish from lo tbolt?
  42. [20:30] <Texas> and nothing from anything else
  43. 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> in that it's forced to wish + protect every time it comes in on queen
  44. 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> troo
  45. 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> sdef slowking is ok
  46. 01[20:31] <SilentVerse> though that means that you'll need another answer to stuff like entei
  47. [20:31] <Texas> qwilfish strong
  48. 01[20:31] <SilentVerse> uxie tho
  49. [20:31] <Texas> since spikes wears down queen too
  50. 01[20:31] <SilentVerse> is not a mon that i'd personally use on stall
  51. 01[20:31] <SilentVerse> idk, i've just never seen it work on a successful stall team tbh
  52. 01[20:31] <SilentVerse> so basically there's like
  53. [20:32] <Texas> i think that uxie is stuck a lot in traditional roles
  54. 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> sdef slowking and gardevoir
  55. [20:32] <Texas> and its rarely adapted for stall
  56. 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> and a bunch of checks
  57. [20:32] <Texas> no silentverse
  58. [20:32] <Texas> uxie is in there too
  59. 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> i suppose
  60. [20:32] <Texas> just because you wnt use it doesnt mean it isnt legi
  61. 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> ok, sdef slowking, gardevoir, and uxie
  62. [20:32] <Texas> aside from that more or less yes
  63. [20:32] <Texas> licky and fable are stronger checks
  64. 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> eh
  65. [20:32] <Texas> bulky psychics etc
  66. 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> licky and fable
  67. 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> can't really do much back to queen t ho
  68. [20:33] <Texas> heal+stoss
  69. 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> they can't toxic, so they can only whittle it down with stoss or slam
  70. 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> that's pretty risky tho
  71. [20:33] <Texas> although
  72. [20:33] <Texas> if it body slams
  73. [20:33] <Texas> and queen gets para'd
  74. 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> because you're like 4hkoing queen
  75. [20:33] <Texas> !
  76. 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> and you gotta hope that it doesn't get a crit
  77. 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> which is very likely to happen
  78. [20:33] <Texas> sheer forc enegates crits
  79. [20:33] <Texas> !
  80. 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> considering how many times it's hitting your mons
  81. 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> f'naaa
  82. 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> x)
  83. 01[20:34] <SilentVerse> so yeah, i mean
  84. 01[20:34] <SilentVerse> licki and clefable are ok
  85. 01[20:34] <SilentVerse> but having used them, idk i just hate how they basically only beat queen
  86. 01[20:34] <SilentVerse> and not much else :/
  87. 01[20:34] <SilentVerse> + the bulky psychics are really really vulnerable to pursuit
  88. [20:34] <Texas> so we're saying it has 3 good and viable queen counters, a few strong checks and a bunch of weaker checks
  89. [20:34] <Texas> in terms of stall
  90. 01[20:35] <SilentVerse> yes
  91. [20:35] <Texas> queen + pursuit i dont think is worth banning though
  92. [20:35] <Texas> thats almost the same concept as dragmag
  93. 01[20:35] <SilentVerse> well
  94. 01[20:35] <SilentVerse> perhaps not
  95. 01[20:35] <SilentVerse> but it does show how easy
  96. 01[20:35] <SilentVerse> it can be to support queen
  97. 01[20:36] <SilentVerse> and remove it's counters
  98. [20:36] <Texas> certainly, and if you are dedicated to creating a full stall team such things must be considered when teambuilding
  99. 01[20:36] <SilentVerse> idk queen is a tough pickle
  100. 01[20:36] <SilentVerse> troo
  101. 01[20:36] <SilentVerse> except it's very difficult
  102. 1[20:36] <SilentVerse> to counter queen + pursuit
  103. 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> and considering how widely it's used
  104. [20:37] <Texas> i would imagine that to be true
  105. 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> it's a very big problem imo
  106. [20:37] <Texas> stuff like reflect cryo can handle it tho
  107. 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> reflect cryo is ok
  108. [20:37] <Texas> and cryo is now ev'd to beat queen
  109. [20:37] <Texas> so it can reflect stall
  110. 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> it still checks
  111. [20:37] <Texas> for misses/pp
  112. 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> queen
  113. 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> :/
  114. [20:37] <Texas> *recover
  115. 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> fire blast does a shitton tho
  116. [20:37] <Texas> like 65ish
  117. 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> yeah
  118. 01[20:38] <SilentVerse> which is more than cryo can recover
  119. [20:38] <Texas> so its netting 9% each recover+lefites
  120. 01[20:38] <SilentVerse> + the 25% from sr
  121. [20:38] <Texas> and FB only has 8 PP
  122. 01[20:38] <SilentVerse> it's dying really quick still tho
  123. [20:38] <Texas> so it has to predict the switch with FB
  124. [20:38] <Texas> and then then hit two more
  125. [20:38] <Texas> without getting killed by IB
  126. 01[20:38] <SilentVerse> not necessarily
  127. 01[20:38] <SilentVerse> tbolt / sludge wave on the switch work just fine
  128. [20:38] <Texas> 9% net, three=37
  129. [20:38] <Texas> *27
  130. [20:39] <Texas> ah, but then you're starting from a 100%ish cryo
  131. [20:39] <Texas> after attack, rocks, and recover
  132. [20:39] <Texas> before you hit FB
  133. [20:39] <Texas> the same turn
  134. 01[20:39] <SilentVerse> true
  135. 01[20:39] <SilentVerse> the cryo still has to basically fish for a miss tho
  136. 01[20:39] <SilentVerse> since fb still kos before it runs out of pp
  137. [20:39] <Texas> if its the latter scenario it generally beats out queen though
  138. 1[20:39] <SilentVerse> not in my experience :/
  139. [20:40] <Texas> since it would take 6 consecutive i think to KO
  140. [20:40] <Texas> disregarding damage variation
  141. [20:40] <Texas> anda gain, without getting KOd by ice beam itself
  142. 01[20:40] <SilentVerse> cryo only does like 50% with ice beam iirc
  143. 01[20:40] <SilentVerse> maybe like 60%
  144. [20:41] <Texas> gotta be more than 50 lol
  145. 01[20:41] <SilentVerse> ok fine :p
  146. 01[20:41] <SilentVerse> 76%~
  147. 01[20:42] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen still usually comes out on top though in my experience
  148. [20:42] <Texas> at the very least cryo will have crippled queen before going down
  149. 01[20:42] <SilentVerse> troo
  150. [20:42] <Texas> so saying the reflect cryo can handle pursuit+queen
  151. 01[20:42] <SilentVerse> but then nidoqueen still gets a very valuable kill
  152. [20:43] <Texas> is not fallacious
  153. 01[20:43] <SilentVerse> reflect cryo beats pursuit+queen
  154. [20:43] <Texas> thats where teambuilding comes into play though
  155. 01[20:43] <SilentVerse> and loses to a lot of other things cryo is good at beating
  156. [20:43] <Texas> stall is built on redundancies ofc
  157. 01[20:43] <SilentVerse> please don't lecture me on teambuilding lol
  158. [20:43] <Texas> wouldnt a lecture imply multiple statements .-.
  159. 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> troo
  160. 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> x)
  161. 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> i also believe
  162. 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> that nidoqueen is incredibly centralizing too
  163. 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> i mean, look at the current metagame
  164. [20:44] <Texas> thats a reasonable argument but I dont think i agree with it for the following reasons
  165. 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> almost every competant team that i've seen
  166. 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> uses uxie
  167. 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> because the NEED that queen counter
  168. 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> for consistency
  169. [20:45] <Texas> as we've seen, RU is consistently at around 60 mons, and the recent shifts only increased these
  170. 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> furthermore
  171. [20:45] <Texas> and while queen is the #1 mon by a 5% margin
  172. 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen has made so many pokemon liabilities
  173. [20:45] <Texas> the fact that the other stuff is much lower
  174. [20:45] <Texas> demonstrates greater diversity
  175. 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> still
  176. 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> remember manectric?
  177. 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> bad because of queen
  178. [20:45] <Texas> it used to be good
  179. 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> galvantula?
  180. [20:45] <Texas> queen makes it bad
  181. 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> bad because of queen
  182. 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> steelix / tangrowth?
  183. [20:46] <Texas> this is part of the cycle of tiering lol
  184. 01[20:46] <SilentVerse> bad because of queen and the offensive shift
  185. [20:46] <Texas> also galvy isnt bad per se
  186. [20:46] <Texas> giga does like 30 i think
  187. [20:46] <Texas> hp ice like 45ish
  188. [20:46] <Texas> and i think the offensive shift has more to do with it than queen does
  189. [20:46] <Texas> queen was just part of the catalyst
  190. [20:46] <Texas> int erms of uxie
  191. 01[20:46] <SilentVerse> a very big part of the catalyst imo
  192. [20:46] <Texas> i think its just the best queen option
  193. [20:46] <Texas> and this the most used
  194. [20:46] <Texas> offensive teams for example
  195. [20:47] <Texas> dont necessarily need the queen check
  196. 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> yes
  197. [20:47] <Texas> but uxie provides other functions
  198. 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> but literally every other team archetype
  199. 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> needs queen
  200. [20:47] <Texas> so the queen checking is a bonus
  201. 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> err
  202. 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> *uxie
  203. 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> and idk, all the balance teams that i've seen
  204. 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> are really just offense with
  205. [20:47] <Texas> for balance either that or a combination of mons including slowking that can collectively resist its attacks, yes i agree
  206. 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> uxie / maybe another pivot
  207. [20:47] <Texas> for stall, we've discussed that avenus already
  208. 01[20:48] <SilentVerse> mmhmm
  209. 1[20:48] <SilentVerse> except
  210. 01[20:48] <SilentVerse> honestly i haven't seen successful balance
  211. 01[20:48] <SilentVerse> that uses the latter part of your suggestion
  212. [20:48] <Texas> the team i used vs windsong did i think
  213. [20:48] <Texas> windsongs team too if i recall correctly
  214. [20:49] <Texas> cant check atm tho :(
  215. 01[20:49] <SilentVerse> :(
  216. [20:49] <Texas> ps being down and all
  217. [20:49] <Texas> i usedd something along the lines of
  218. [20:49] <Texas> drudd, slowking, kabu and a couple gorund immunities
  219. [20:49] <Texas> hich made it hard for queen to predict
  220. [20:49] <Texas> with drudd and king often being safe switch ins
  221. [20:50] <Texas> because if queens tries to predict it can easily die
  222. 01[20:50] <SilentVerse> that team
  223. 01[20:50] <SilentVerse> is still fairly offensive in nature tho
  224. 01[20:50] <SilentVerse> all of your mons have offensive presence to threaten queen
  225. [20:50] <Texas> it is, but the slower mons that were used
  226. [20:50] <Texas> yes exactly
  227. [20:50] <Texas> and thats something that balance has to keep in min di think
  228. 01[20:50] <SilentVerse> and that's not a good thing imo
  229. [20:51] <Texas> not being fodder for one of the most dangerous mons int he tier
  230. 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> because that's not balance anymore
  231. 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> that's basically
  232. [20:51] <Texas> if you dont otherwise have a counter
  233. 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> bulky offense lol
  234. [20:51] <Texas> the thing is I could say the same for moltres in a different scenario
  235. [20:51] <Texas> if i dont carry a hard counter
  236. [20:51] <Texas> my slow mons have to be able to threaten tres
  237. 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> yes, and that's why
  238. 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> i do sorta feel that moltres may be banworthy in the future
  239. 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> :p
  240. [20:51] <Texas> oh
  241. [20:52] <Texas> well then i think we fundamentally disagree on bans then lol
  242. 01[20:52] <SilentVerse> but the thing about moltres
  243. 01[20:52] <SilentVerse> is that it is also significantly less consistent
  244. [20:52] <Texas> yea i know, hazards and status
  245. 1[20:52] <SilentVerse> due to sr and inaccurate moves
  246. [20:52] <Texas> either way i dont think queen is banworthy :p
  247. 01[20:52] <SilentVerse> that's fair enough
  248. 01[20:52] <SilentVerse> i do trust that you do understand why i feel it's banworthy tho :p
  249. [20:53] <Texas> i do, i dont agree with your position but i do understand your position of beliefs
  250. 01[20:53] <SilentVerse> excellente
  251. [20:54] <Texas> think it might be worth copying this log into the suspect thread?
  252. 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> perhaps~
  253. 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> though to get this straight
  254. 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> you feel that bans
  255. 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> are for pokemon that are outright overpowering
  256. [20:54] <Texas> i cant tho, cause im cut off after :26
  257. 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> if they shift the metagame significantly that is fine?
  258. 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> :(
  259. [20:55] <Texas> thats a rather overarching statement to generalize i think
  260. 01[20:55] <SilentVerse> *and centralize
  261. 01[20:55] <SilentVerse> true
  262. 01[20:55] <SilentVerse> x)
  263. [20:55] <Texas> i prefer to take things in context lol
  264. 01[20:55] <SilentVerse> well it'd be great to have a summary of your opinion on banning :p
  265. [20:55] <Texas> like i suppose i could say yes cause cress did shift the meta but was also overpowering
  266. [20:55] <Texas> i think that if we were to lay out a series of planes
  267. [20:56] <Texas> like a political spectrum or w/e
  268. [20:56] <Texas> i would be like 90% for pokemon that are overpowered int eh metagame
  269. [20:56] <Texas> 10% for mons that shape the meta
  270. [20:56] <Texas> for example, i didnt agree with the garchomp or excadrill bans from the meta they were banned in
  271. [20:56] <Texas> nor torn-t
  272. [20:57] <Texas> blaze i was ambivalent
  273. 01[20:57] <SilentVerse> hmmm
  274. 01[20:57] <SilentVerse> i c
  275. 01[20:57] <SilentVerse> well i believe
  276. 01[20:57] <SilentVerse> that mons that put a significant strain on a certain playstyle
  277. [20:58] <Texas> im more towards the opinion of ban broken stuff then ban stuff for a more fun meta you could say
  278. 01[20:58] <SilentVerse> and shift the metagame to an incredible extent around them
  279. 01[20:58] <SilentVerse> are broken imo
  280. [20:58] <Texas> i.e. snow cloak/sand veil ban was dumb
  281. 1[20:58] <SilentVerse> yeah i agree with tha tlol
  282. [20:59] <Texas> well see when you get into defining it like that i dont think queen satisfies the second qualifier
  283. [20:59] <Texas> strain on teambuilding definitely
  284. [20:59] <Texas> shift the meta to an incredible extent?
  285. [20:59] <Texas> i dont think so
  286. 01[20:59] <SilentVerse> nah
  287. 01[20:59] <SilentVerse> i really think it does centralize the metagame ridiculously tho
  288. 01[20:59] <SilentVerse> i mean, like i said
  289. 01[20:59] <SilentVerse> the rise of uxie, really sudden drop
  290. 01[20:59] <SilentVerse> in slow, bulky mons
  291. [20:59] <Texas> uxie was always like #4 in usage lol
  292. 01[21:00] <SilentVerse> and rise of general ho smeargle offense
  293. 01[21:00] <SilentVerse> which were always good, but never so absurdly dominant
  294. 01[21:00] <SilentVerse> yeah, uxie was
  295. 01[21:00] <SilentVerse> but tbh i don't remember a lot of good players using it very much :s
  296. 01[21:00] <SilentVerse> + the usage stats have always been pretty suspect x)
  297. [21:00] <Texas> smeargle idk if you can say ho is the only reason its used
  298. [21:01] <Texas> you obviosuly know first hand
  299. [21:01] <Texas> that it works for stall too :p
  300. [21:01] <Texas> i.e. august
  301. 01[21:01] <SilentVerse> troo
  302. 01[21:01] <SilentVerse> x)