Advertisement
Not a member of Pastebin yet?
Sign Up,
it unlocks many cool features!
- 1[20:25] <SilentVerse> tho seriously texas
- 01[20:25] <SilentVerse> gimme some counters to queen
- 01[20:25] <SilentVerse> that beat a lot of other pokes
- 01[20:25] <SilentVerse> :)
- [20:25] <Texas> fable, uxie, offensive teams
- [20:25] <Texas> !
- [20:26] <Texas> and druddi/tomb as checks
- 01[20:27] <SilentVerse> tomb
- 01[20:27] <SilentVerse> is a pretty shitty check
- 01[20:27] <SilentVerse> because it's only avoids being 2hkoed if it's sdef
- 01[20:27] <SilentVerse> and can only burn in return :(
- 01[20:27] <SilentVerse> fable doesn't really check that much
- [20:28] <Texas> sucker does a lot
- 01[20:28] <SilentVerse> and has to use softboiled to beat queen, which means that
- 01[20:28] <SilentVerse> it can't beat moltres
- [20:28] <Texas> and most tomb i see switch in take like 40
- 01[20:28] <SilentVerse> o.o
- [20:28] <Texas> i think ghost resists poison does it not?
- 01[20:28] <SilentVerse> 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Spiritomb: 168-199 (55.26 - 65.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 01[20:28] <SilentVerse> well i guess
- 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> it's a decent check
- 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> but you can't really afford just checks on stall
- 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> especially when you're up against nidoqueen who's so difficult to wear down
- [20:29] <Texas> why are you using just a spiritomb to check queen if you;re running stall >_>
- 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> ok OBviously you can use
- 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> other mons
- 01[20:29] <SilentVerse> i suppose cryo / slowking / spiritomb can CHECK queen
- 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> but that's still a mediocre at best answer to queen
- [20:30] <Texas> use like lickilicky, uxie and sdef slowking
- [20:30] <Texas> if you want to stall
- 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> what does
- 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> lickilicky beat other than nidoqueen
- [20:30] <Texas> sdef slowking is a p strong answer to queen i think
- [20:30] <Texas> moltres
- 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> sdef slowking is ok i guess
- [20:30] <Texas> other special attackers
- 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> nah licki loses to that too
- 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> >.>
- [20:30] <Texas> sdef slowking takes what
- 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> and it suffers from the same problem as clefable
- [20:30] <Texas> 50ish from lo tbolt?
- [20:30] <Texas> and nothing from anything else
- 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> in that it's forced to wish + protect every time it comes in on queen
- 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> troo
- 01[20:30] <SilentVerse> sdef slowking is ok
- 01[20:31] <SilentVerse> though that means that you'll need another answer to stuff like entei
- [20:31] <Texas> qwilfish strong
- 01[20:31] <SilentVerse> uxie tho
- [20:31] <Texas> since spikes wears down queen too
- 01[20:31] <SilentVerse> is not a mon that i'd personally use on stall
- 01[20:31] <SilentVerse> idk, i've just never seen it work on a successful stall team tbh
- 01[20:31] <SilentVerse> so basically there's like
- [20:32] <Texas> i think that uxie is stuck a lot in traditional roles
- 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> sdef slowking and gardevoir
- [20:32] <Texas> and its rarely adapted for stall
- 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> and a bunch of checks
- [20:32] <Texas> no silentverse
- [20:32] <Texas> uxie is in there too
- 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> i suppose
- [20:32] <Texas> just because you wnt use it doesnt mean it isnt legi
- 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> ok, sdef slowking, gardevoir, and uxie
- [20:32] <Texas> aside from that more or less yes
- [20:32] <Texas> licky and fable are stronger checks
- 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> eh
- [20:32] <Texas> bulky psychics etc
- 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> licky and fable
- 01[20:32] <SilentVerse> can't really do much back to queen t ho
- [20:33] <Texas> heal+stoss
- 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> they can't toxic, so they can only whittle it down with stoss or slam
- 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> that's pretty risky tho
- [20:33] <Texas> although
- [20:33] <Texas> if it body slams
- [20:33] <Texas> and queen gets para'd
- 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> because you're like 4hkoing queen
- [20:33] <Texas> !
- 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> and you gotta hope that it doesn't get a crit
- 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> which is very likely to happen
- [20:33] <Texas> sheer forc enegates crits
- [20:33] <Texas> !
- 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> considering how many times it's hitting your mons
- 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> f'naaa
- 01[20:33] <SilentVerse> x)
- 01[20:34] <SilentVerse> so yeah, i mean
- 01[20:34] <SilentVerse> licki and clefable are ok
- 01[20:34] <SilentVerse> but having used them, idk i just hate how they basically only beat queen
- 01[20:34] <SilentVerse> and not much else :/
- 01[20:34] <SilentVerse> + the bulky psychics are really really vulnerable to pursuit
- [20:34] <Texas> so we're saying it has 3 good and viable queen counters, a few strong checks and a bunch of weaker checks
- [20:34] <Texas> in terms of stall
- 01[20:35] <SilentVerse> yes
- [20:35] <Texas> queen + pursuit i dont think is worth banning though
- [20:35] <Texas> thats almost the same concept as dragmag
- 01[20:35] <SilentVerse> well
- 01[20:35] <SilentVerse> perhaps not
- 01[20:35] <SilentVerse> but it does show how easy
- 01[20:35] <SilentVerse> it can be to support queen
- 01[20:36] <SilentVerse> and remove it's counters
- [20:36] <Texas> certainly, and if you are dedicated to creating a full stall team such things must be considered when teambuilding
- 01[20:36] <SilentVerse> idk queen is a tough pickle
- 01[20:36] <SilentVerse> troo
- 01[20:36] <SilentVerse> except it's very difficult
- 1[20:36] <SilentVerse> to counter queen + pursuit
- 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> and considering how widely it's used
- [20:37] <Texas> i would imagine that to be true
- 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> it's a very big problem imo
- [20:37] <Texas> stuff like reflect cryo can handle it tho
- 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> reflect cryo is ok
- [20:37] <Texas> and cryo is now ev'd to beat queen
- [20:37] <Texas> so it can reflect stall
- 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> it still checks
- [20:37] <Texas> for misses/pp
- 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> queen
- 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> :/
- [20:37] <Texas> *recover
- 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> fire blast does a shitton tho
- [20:37] <Texas> like 65ish
- 01[20:37] <SilentVerse> yeah
- 01[20:38] <SilentVerse> which is more than cryo can recover
- [20:38] <Texas> so its netting 9% each recover+lefites
- 01[20:38] <SilentVerse> + the 25% from sr
- [20:38] <Texas> and FB only has 8 PP
- 01[20:38] <SilentVerse> it's dying really quick still tho
- [20:38] <Texas> so it has to predict the switch with FB
- [20:38] <Texas> and then then hit two more
- [20:38] <Texas> without getting killed by IB
- 01[20:38] <SilentVerse> not necessarily
- 01[20:38] <SilentVerse> tbolt / sludge wave on the switch work just fine
- [20:38] <Texas> 9% net, three=37
- [20:38] <Texas> *27
- [20:39] <Texas> ah, but then you're starting from a 100%ish cryo
- [20:39] <Texas> after attack, rocks, and recover
- [20:39] <Texas> before you hit FB
- [20:39] <Texas> the same turn
- 01[20:39] <SilentVerse> true
- 01[20:39] <SilentVerse> the cryo still has to basically fish for a miss tho
- 01[20:39] <SilentVerse> since fb still kos before it runs out of pp
- [20:39] <Texas> if its the latter scenario it generally beats out queen though
- 1[20:39] <SilentVerse> not in my experience :/
- [20:40] <Texas> since it would take 6 consecutive i think to KO
- [20:40] <Texas> disregarding damage variation
- [20:40] <Texas> anda gain, without getting KOd by ice beam itself
- 01[20:40] <SilentVerse> cryo only does like 50% with ice beam iirc
- 01[20:40] <SilentVerse> maybe like 60%
- [20:41] <Texas> gotta be more than 50 lol
- 01[20:41] <SilentVerse> ok fine :p
- 01[20:41] <SilentVerse> 76%~
- 01[20:42] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen still usually comes out on top though in my experience
- [20:42] <Texas> at the very least cryo will have crippled queen before going down
- 01[20:42] <SilentVerse> troo
- [20:42] <Texas> so saying the reflect cryo can handle pursuit+queen
- 01[20:42] <SilentVerse> but then nidoqueen still gets a very valuable kill
- [20:43] <Texas> is not fallacious
- 01[20:43] <SilentVerse> reflect cryo beats pursuit+queen
- [20:43] <Texas> thats where teambuilding comes into play though
- 01[20:43] <SilentVerse> and loses to a lot of other things cryo is good at beating
- [20:43] <Texas> stall is built on redundancies ofc
- 01[20:43] <SilentVerse> please don't lecture me on teambuilding lol
- [20:43] <Texas> wouldnt a lecture imply multiple statements .-.
- 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> troo
- 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> x)
- 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> i also believe
- 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> that nidoqueen is incredibly centralizing too
- 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> i mean, look at the current metagame
- [20:44] <Texas> thats a reasonable argument but I dont think i agree with it for the following reasons
- 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> almost every competant team that i've seen
- 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> uses uxie
- 01[20:44] <SilentVerse> because the NEED that queen counter
- 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> for consistency
- [20:45] <Texas> as we've seen, RU is consistently at around 60 mons, and the recent shifts only increased these
- 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> furthermore
- [20:45] <Texas> and while queen is the #1 mon by a 5% margin
- 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen has made so many pokemon liabilities
- [20:45] <Texas> the fact that the other stuff is much lower
- [20:45] <Texas> demonstrates greater diversity
- 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> still
- 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> remember manectric?
- 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> bad because of queen
- [20:45] <Texas> it used to be good
- 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> galvantula?
- [20:45] <Texas> queen makes it bad
- 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> bad because of queen
- 01[20:45] <SilentVerse> steelix / tangrowth?
- [20:46] <Texas> this is part of the cycle of tiering lol
- 01[20:46] <SilentVerse> bad because of queen and the offensive shift
- [20:46] <Texas> also galvy isnt bad per se
- [20:46] <Texas> giga does like 30 i think
- [20:46] <Texas> hp ice like 45ish
- [20:46] <Texas> and i think the offensive shift has more to do with it than queen does
- [20:46] <Texas> queen was just part of the catalyst
- [20:46] <Texas> int erms of uxie
- 01[20:46] <SilentVerse> a very big part of the catalyst imo
- [20:46] <Texas> i think its just the best queen option
- [20:46] <Texas> and this the most used
- [20:46] <Texas> offensive teams for example
- [20:47] <Texas> dont necessarily need the queen check
- 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> yes
- [20:47] <Texas> but uxie provides other functions
- 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> but literally every other team archetype
- 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> needs queen
- [20:47] <Texas> so the queen checking is a bonus
- 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> err
- 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> *uxie
- 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> and idk, all the balance teams that i've seen
- 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> are really just offense with
- [20:47] <Texas> for balance either that or a combination of mons including slowking that can collectively resist its attacks, yes i agree
- 01[20:47] <SilentVerse> uxie / maybe another pivot
- [20:47] <Texas> for stall, we've discussed that avenus already
- 01[20:48] <SilentVerse> mmhmm
- 1[20:48] <SilentVerse> except
- 01[20:48] <SilentVerse> honestly i haven't seen successful balance
- 01[20:48] <SilentVerse> that uses the latter part of your suggestion
- [20:48] <Texas> the team i used vs windsong did i think
- [20:48] <Texas> windsongs team too if i recall correctly
- [20:49] <Texas> cant check atm tho :(
- 01[20:49] <SilentVerse> :(
- [20:49] <Texas> ps being down and all
- [20:49] <Texas> i usedd something along the lines of
- [20:49] <Texas> drudd, slowking, kabu and a couple gorund immunities
- [20:49] <Texas> hich made it hard for queen to predict
- [20:49] <Texas> with drudd and king often being safe switch ins
- [20:50] <Texas> because if queens tries to predict it can easily die
- 01[20:50] <SilentVerse> that team
- 01[20:50] <SilentVerse> is still fairly offensive in nature tho
- 01[20:50] <SilentVerse> all of your mons have offensive presence to threaten queen
- [20:50] <Texas> it is, but the slower mons that were used
- [20:50] <Texas> yes exactly
- [20:50] <Texas> and thats something that balance has to keep in min di think
- 01[20:50] <SilentVerse> and that's not a good thing imo
- [20:51] <Texas> not being fodder for one of the most dangerous mons int he tier
- 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> because that's not balance anymore
- 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> that's basically
- [20:51] <Texas> if you dont otherwise have a counter
- 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> bulky offense lol
- [20:51] <Texas> the thing is I could say the same for moltres in a different scenario
- [20:51] <Texas> if i dont carry a hard counter
- [20:51] <Texas> my slow mons have to be able to threaten tres
- 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> yes, and that's why
- 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> i do sorta feel that moltres may be banworthy in the future
- 01[20:51] <SilentVerse> :p
- [20:51] <Texas> oh
- [20:52] <Texas> well then i think we fundamentally disagree on bans then lol
- 01[20:52] <SilentVerse> but the thing about moltres
- 01[20:52] <SilentVerse> is that it is also significantly less consistent
- [20:52] <Texas> yea i know, hazards and status
- 1[20:52] <SilentVerse> due to sr and inaccurate moves
- [20:52] <Texas> either way i dont think queen is banworthy :p
- 01[20:52] <SilentVerse> that's fair enough
- 01[20:52] <SilentVerse> i do trust that you do understand why i feel it's banworthy tho :p
- [20:53] <Texas> i do, i dont agree with your position but i do understand your position of beliefs
- 01[20:53] <SilentVerse> excellente
- [20:54] <Texas> think it might be worth copying this log into the suspect thread?
- 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> perhaps~
- 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> though to get this straight
- 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> you feel that bans
- 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> are for pokemon that are outright overpowering
- [20:54] <Texas> i cant tho, cause im cut off after :26
- 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> if they shift the metagame significantly that is fine?
- 01[20:54] <SilentVerse> :(
- [20:55] <Texas> thats a rather overarching statement to generalize i think
- 01[20:55] <SilentVerse> *and centralize
- 01[20:55] <SilentVerse> true
- 01[20:55] <SilentVerse> x)
- [20:55] <Texas> i prefer to take things in context lol
- 01[20:55] <SilentVerse> well it'd be great to have a summary of your opinion on banning :p
- [20:55] <Texas> like i suppose i could say yes cause cress did shift the meta but was also overpowering
- [20:55] <Texas> i think that if we were to lay out a series of planes
- [20:56] <Texas> like a political spectrum or w/e
- [20:56] <Texas> i would be like 90% for pokemon that are overpowered int eh metagame
- [20:56] <Texas> 10% for mons that shape the meta
- [20:56] <Texas> for example, i didnt agree with the garchomp or excadrill bans from the meta they were banned in
- [20:56] <Texas> nor torn-t
- [20:57] <Texas> blaze i was ambivalent
- 01[20:57] <SilentVerse> hmmm
- 01[20:57] <SilentVerse> i c
- 01[20:57] <SilentVerse> well i believe
- 01[20:57] <SilentVerse> that mons that put a significant strain on a certain playstyle
- [20:58] <Texas> im more towards the opinion of ban broken stuff then ban stuff for a more fun meta you could say
- 01[20:58] <SilentVerse> and shift the metagame to an incredible extent around them
- 01[20:58] <SilentVerse> are broken imo
- [20:58] <Texas> i.e. snow cloak/sand veil ban was dumb
- 1[20:58] <SilentVerse> yeah i agree with tha tlol
- [20:59] <Texas> well see when you get into defining it like that i dont think queen satisfies the second qualifier
- [20:59] <Texas> strain on teambuilding definitely
- [20:59] <Texas> shift the meta to an incredible extent?
- [20:59] <Texas> i dont think so
- 01[20:59] <SilentVerse> nah
- 01[20:59] <SilentVerse> i really think it does centralize the metagame ridiculously tho
- 01[20:59] <SilentVerse> i mean, like i said
- 01[20:59] <SilentVerse> the rise of uxie, really sudden drop
- 01[20:59] <SilentVerse> in slow, bulky mons
- [20:59] <Texas> uxie was always like #4 in usage lol
- 01[21:00] <SilentVerse> and rise of general ho smeargle offense
- 01[21:00] <SilentVerse> which were always good, but never so absurdly dominant
- 01[21:00] <SilentVerse> yeah, uxie was
- 01[21:00] <SilentVerse> but tbh i don't remember a lot of good players using it very much :s
- 01[21:00] <SilentVerse> + the usage stats have always been pretty suspect x)
- [21:00] <Texas> smeargle idk if you can say ho is the only reason its used
- [21:01] <Texas> you obviosuly know first hand
- [21:01] <Texas> that it works for stall too :p
- [21:01] <Texas> i.e. august
- 01[21:01] <SilentVerse> troo
- 01[21:01] <SilentVerse> x)
Advertisement
Add Comment
Please, Sign In to add comment
Advertisement