<Melee_Mewtwo> what?
<xrarwt> It's Superimp. Do you have a moment?
<Melee_Mewtwo> oh hey
<Melee_Mewtwo> why don't you talk in #ubers
<Melee_Mewtwo> nexus is on at least
<xrarwt> I can't stay for long, but I'm here to answer any relevant questions.
<xrarwt> I'll talk in #ubers once I'm less busy :).
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah I'm not entirely up to date on how far things have moved forward between you and shrang
<Melee_Mewtwo> so if you could post an update or make the responses public that would be lovely
<xrarwt> I'm currently working on that :).
<Melee_Mewtwo> okay good
<xrarwt> Anyway, since I'm assuming that you want to be up to date, do you want a copy of the FULL conversation? It might make things more clear.
<Melee_Mewtwo> I think you can actually add me to the conversation
<Melee_Mewtwo> it's a new feature of the forums
<Melee_Mewtwo> one of the few nice things
<Melee_Mewtwo> if you could add furai, tr, polop, and dice as well
<Melee_Mewtwo> that would be great
<xrarwt> Hmm….
<Melee_Mewtwo> they are the active qc I can think of off the top of my head
<Melee_Mewtwo> nexus too even
<xrarwt> shrang doesn't know about this, so I guess I should tell him beforehand.
<xrarwt> I'll add you guys later once I ask him.
<xrarwt> Fine?
<Melee_Mewtwo> I'm p sure he's fine with it
<Melee_Mewtwo> he's asked you why this isn't public already
<Melee_Mewtwo> this really shouldn't be a behind the scenes thing
<Melee_Mewtwo> the whole qc team needs to be involved it's taken long enough
<xrarwt> I understand.
<Melee_Mewtwo> and from talking with shrang, I'm fairly certain he has no opposition
<Melee_Mewtwo> to adding us all
<xrarwt> I just want to be sure. You understand, right?
<Melee_Mewtwo> <shrang> he's PMing me all his replies
<Melee_Mewtwo> <Nexus> k
<Melee_Mewtwo> <shrang> which makes it really hard for other people to judge what he's doing
<Melee_Mewtwo> I'd take that as an okay
<xrarwt> lol
<xrarwt> Sure, I'll add you guys in soon.
<Melee_Mewtwo> cool
<xrarwt> Anyway, the reason why we tried "behind the scenes" was that we wanted to try 1-on-1. See if we can stop the issue from escalating any further :P.
<xrarwt> In hindsight, I guess that didn't work out very well.
<xrarwt> At least I know in the future, 1-on-1 conversations is NOT the answer.
<Melee_Mewtwo> as long as we can get everybody involved now it's nbd
<xrarwt> Agreed.
<xrarwt> Anyway, do you have any specific questions that'll you like to ask me?
<Melee_Mewtwo> I will once I can see all the updates etc
<xrarwt> Got it.
<xrarwt> Okay, you've got invited at the moment.
<xrarwt> Do you see it?
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep
<Melee_Mewtwo> thanks
<xrarwt> Np
<xrarwt> You might want to read all of it if you haven't already. I think it might help.
<Melee_Mewtwo> I am
<Melee_Mewtwo> did it start with just the furai concision bit?
<xrarwt> ???
<xrarwt> Could you be more specific?
<Melee_Mewtwo> http://puu.sh/4i6tG.png
<xrarwt> Link doesn't seem to work :(.
<Melee_Mewtwo> odd
<Melee_Mewtwo> it's working on my end idk what's up
<Melee_Mewtwo> oh well
<Melee_Mewtwo> doesn't matter
<Melee_Mewtwo> have you been updating he main post with these edits?
<Melee_Mewtwo> you keep mentioning concisions but I'm not sure where this is taking place
<xrarwt> Yes (Besides the most recent response that I sent today)
<Melee_Mewtwo> whether in a personal document or in the thread itself
<Melee_Mewtwo> okay
<xrarwt> It's in the thread.
<Melee_Mewtwo> got it
<xrarwt> Concerning my recent response, the main OP hasn't been updated yet; the google docs page (where I keep my backups) is.
<Melee_Mewtwo> np
<Melee_Mewtwo> I'll be responding to this response in the conversation now
<xrarwt> Umm...
<Melee_Mewtwo> that way shrang can see it when he gets back
<xrarwt> Is it possible to discuss it here first? I'm still editing my WIP response.
<xrarwt> I really don't want to confuse him by accident.
<Melee_Mewtwo> nvm I'll just wait til it's not WIP
<xrarwt> Thanks :).
<Melee_Mewtwo> I don't want to respond in here
<Melee_Mewtwo> as that defeats the whole purpose of it being open to other qw
<Melee_Mewtwo> qc*
<xrarwt> True.
<xrarwt> Anyway, have you finished reading the entire conversation? Or are you still reading / just stopped?
<Melee_Mewtwo> still reading almost finished
<xrarwt> Got it.
<xrarwt> Hmm… What do you think Melee Mewtwo? Or are you still reading?
<Melee_Mewtwo> where are these joim and bmb quote's coming from?
<xrarwt> join's quote is in response to an amateur GP checker wanting ALL his changes implemented; bmb's quote is in a Smog article.
<xrarwt> I'll get you the links.
<xrarwt> Here's bmb: http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue18/gp
<Melee_Mewtwo> k
<xrarwt> Do you need Joim's quote?
<xrarwt> Or are you good?
<Melee_Mewtwo> no that's fine
<Melee_Mewtwo> is the response finished?
<xrarwt> It's WIP as I'm still thinking over on whether it's the right response to shrang.
<xrarwt> What are your thoughts on it Melee Mewtwo?
<Melee_Mewtwo> I'll post my thoughts when it is finished
<xrarwt> Okay. Do you want to talk about some of its contents here though? We can always post the log into the conversation.
<Melee_Mewtwo> no I don't want to comment on it til it's completely finished that way every bit remains relevent
<xrarwt> Hmm… that's the thing though. I'm not sure what kind of response this might instigate from shrang.
<xrarwt> Even though you don't want to comment on it until you're finished, is there anything you can tell me?
<Melee_Mewtwo> I'm only concerned with this analysis, not on your relationship with shrang
<xrarwt> lol. That's good.
<Melee_Mewtwo> so no I don't really have anything to add as far as how he will take certain comments
<xrarwt> Understood.
<xrarwt> Anyway, are there any questions that I can ask you?
<xrarwt> For the purposes of this analysis of course.
<Melee_Mewtwo> you can ask me anything
<Melee_Mewtwo> I prefer itt's done in #ubers though
<Melee_Mewtwo> because we have some good players that might share their opinion
<xrarwt> I have to go soon, so I'll be quick.
<Melee_Mewtwo> okay
<xrarwt> Which Speed do you prefer: 16 Spe EVs or 56 Spe EVs?
<Melee_Mewtwo> 56
<xrarwt> Editing in...
<xrarwt> Are you fine with Power Herb
<xrarwt> ?
<Melee_Mewtwo> no
<xrarwt> Are you fine with the current C&C section?
<Melee_Mewtwo> no
<xrarwt> Is there something you'll like to change?
<Melee_Mewtwo> you don't need to be mentioning things like 17 formes at all
<Melee_Mewtwo> there's just no point, even stuck in hide tags
<xrarwt> Okay.
<Melee_Mewtwo> it's completely irrelevent to those trying to counter arc-n
<Melee_Mewtwo> additionally
<Melee_Mewtwo> the c&c shouldn't be looking for mons that handle every set
<Melee_Mewtwo> everymon can run a different set or gimmick options
<Melee_Mewtwo> to get past counters
<Melee_Mewtwo> they need to be treated by set
<Melee_Mewtwo> which is why things like "lack of strict counter"
<Melee_Mewtwo> in spite of the large list
<Melee_Mewtwo> comes off as hype
<Melee_Mewtwo> there's a large list of counters cause each of the sets have a lot of issues
<Melee_Mewtwo> I don't mind there being reasonable detail about the individual checks and counters but you don't need to be mentioning
<Melee_Mewtwo> how under niche circumstances or moves
<Melee_Mewtwo> they can be bypassed
<Melee_Mewtwo> except maybe as quick mentions
<Melee_Mewtwo> once againn it makes it seem like ekiller is an uncounterable beast
<Melee_Mewtwo> when  he is actually quite tame
<xrarwt> lol. We can always change the wording a bit if you're think the section is too tame :).
<Melee_Mewtwo> the section has too much hype
<Melee_Mewtwo> "However, Toxic Skarmory falls to last-Pokemon +6 Life Orb Brick Breaks or non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts. "
<Melee_Mewtwo> this scenario is not reasonable
<Melee_Mewtwo> at leat
<Melee_Mewtwo> the +6 bit
<xrarwt> The +6 bit is actually in reference to physically defensive Skarmory.
<xrarwt> If it's the standard one, you don't actually need life orb.
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah at I'm not seeing what you are doing dawlding with a last mon ekiller that lets it setup
<Melee_Mewtwo> this circumstance is so niche
<Melee_Mewtwo> and only serves as hype
<Melee_Mewtwo> often times skarmer doesn't even need toxic
<Melee_Mewtwo> for your team not have troubles with ekiller
<xrarwt> It will need Toxic for last Pokemon Extreme Killer. Firecape asked this specifically.
<Melee_Mewtwo> that's the problem wiht a year long analysis
<Melee_Mewtwo> firecape isn't active anymroe and the metagame has changed
<Melee_Mewtwo> I agree it's definitely worth a mention
<xrarwt> lol. Yeah.
<Melee_Mewtwo> because skarmory alone can't handle last mon ekiller
<Melee_Mewtwo> without toxic
<Melee_Mewtwo> but you should have a full team
<Melee_Mewtwo> and if you managed to limit ekiller to last mon
<Melee_Mewtwo> odds are you are in the favorable position
<Melee_Mewtwo> and a weakass unboosted ekiller
<Melee_Mewtwo> is not going to pose enough immediate threat
<Melee_Mewtwo> for you to unable to finish it off
<Melee_Mewtwo> you focus more effort talkng about specific scenarios where the checks and counters fail
<Melee_Mewtwo> then how the checks and coutners keep ekiller in line
<Melee_Mewtwo> this is needlessly hyping
<Melee_Mewtwo> a mon that is very mediocre
<Melee_Mewtwo> imo
<xrarwt> It's to keep it more concise. I originally had MUCH more elaboration.
<xrarwt> However, since we're using "JavaScript" hide tags now, I guess I could reintroduce it.
<xrarwt> Thoughts?
<Melee_Mewtwo> we don't even need hide tags
<Melee_Mewtwo> it doesn't take much space to say somehting along the lines of
<Melee_Mewtwo> "Skarmory beats ekiller ignoring rare fire moves outside of rain but will need toxic if it is intended for last mon scenarios"
<Melee_Mewtwo> you can make that look nicer
<Melee_Mewtwo> but that says everythign you need to know
<Melee_Mewtwo> in a single sentence
<xrarwt> Hmm...
<xrarwt> I imagine that's actually longer than the current Skarmory mention I have right now.
<xrarwt> But don't worry, I understand your point.
<xrarwt> Anyway, what do you think about the hide tags?
<Melee_Mewtwo> I don't think you'll even need to go that far
<Melee_Mewtwo> there's been analyses for bigger mons
<Melee_Mewtwo> even for ekiller already
<Melee_Mewtwo> that hasn't had to go that far
<Melee_Mewtwo> there's currently an is thread
<Melee_Mewtwo> specifically dealing with the subject
<Melee_Mewtwo> of too much prose and fluff
<Melee_Mewtwo> in analyses
<xrarwt> True, but no other analysis has EVER had a C&C section larger than 1000 words.
<Melee_Mewtwo> which isn't a good thing
<Melee_Mewtwo> it means  you are doing something wrong
<Melee_Mewtwo> somewhere
<Melee_Mewtwo> http://puu.sh/4i7Wi.png
<Melee_Mewtwo> can you see this one?
<xrarwt> Yeah, I see it.
<xrarwt> I assume this is a private forum?
<Melee_Mewtwo> yes, insidescoop
<xrarwt> I see.
<xrarwt> Do you have anything relevant to C&C sections though? Just curious.
<Melee_Mewtwo> I wish I could puush the full thread
<Melee_Mewtwo> but that bit is including c&c
<Melee_Mewtwo> http://puu.sh/4i82g.png
<Melee_Mewtwo> here's somehting
<xrarwt> Thanks :).
<Melee_Mewtwo> is it still WIP btw?
<xrarwt> As of the moment, yes.
<Melee_Mewtwo> okay
<xrarwt> Anyway, concerning the C&C section, hide tags were the only way I found that were able to keep all the details QC wanted while still being readable. We can definitely edit it so that the pros of the checks are better elaborated and maybe do some more specific concising.
<xrarwt> (Oh, and change the introduction once I talk to some higher ups)
<xrarwt> Fine? Or is there anything you'd like to add?
<xrarwt> Or did I miss something?
<Melee_Mewtwo> um
<Melee_Mewtwo> let me puush the full post
<Melee_Mewtwo> because something along those lines
<Melee_Mewtwo> are going to be your response
<Melee_Mewtwo> http://puu.sh/4i8jA.png
<Melee_Mewtwo> not the full post but the relevent bit
<Melee_Mewtwo> so you can see why your analysis
<xrarwt> Thanks; I'll read it.
<Melee_Mewtwo> is so far off what we want
<Melee_Mewtwo> so pretty much follows everythign shrang already told you
<xrarwt> Hmm… Not really. But I have a better idea.
<xrarwt> on what you guys wants.
<xrarwt> *want
<xrarwt> Melee Mewtwo, do you understand my problem with the current C&C section shrang sent me?
<Melee_Mewtwo> all I got from it was
<Melee_Mewtwo> shrang isn't gp
<Melee_Mewtwo> and furai said you should elaborate
<Melee_Mewtwo> and you are having a hard time shortening it
<xrarwt> Hmm… Do these excerpts help?
<xrarwt> Or that my C&C section is kept because it is the only way to keep the detail QC and I want while still being readable; I don't want this section to have the same fate as your original Mewtwo C&C section.
<xrarwt> At any rate, other QC members like Furai believe this C&C section to be perfectly fine given its objectiveness, its accuracy/detail, and the fact that it is shorter and more concise than your C&C section (while still having that JavaScript stuff). It is also a logical extension of Fireburn’s original analysis; He split the C&C for each respective set, and given that I highly respect his work, I felt it was only natural to continue his
<xrarwt> precedent.
<xrarwt> Writing this C&C section wasn’t exactly easy. I tried several different approaches; I wrote a short version (Think <700 words) as well as a long version (Think >1600 words). However, both had issues that I imagine were unacceptable. The short version was unable to adequately explain all the checks and counters that QC really wanted me to mention; the long version was obviously ridiculous in length.
<Melee_Mewtwo> this seems fit my summary, what's out of place?
<xrarwt> I rewrote the C&C section several times in an attempt to find a reasonable length. Unfortunately, I could not get the C&C section below 900 words without sacrificing crucial details that both QC and I knew were important.
<xrarwt> I imagine that you'll agree with me that any section that is >900 words will not be read by the general audience outright; I did not implement my previous work for this very reason. As such, I imagine I also cannot implement your C&C section at 1196 words. However, I know that you put a lot of work into it and I really do appreciate your effort, so if you manage to reduce your C&C section to less than 900 words (or edit my current C&C secti
<xrarwt> then I'll reconsider.
<Melee_Mewtwo> fire burn precedent?
<Melee_Mewtwo> I think it's a bit of an exaggeration
<Melee_Mewtwo> to say it's a logical follow up from what he had
<xrarwt> It helps because the answers to Extreme Killer are generally very different to the answers of Wallceus.
<xrarwt> Hence why I imagine Fireburn split it in the first place.
<xrarwt> Melee Mewtwo, shrang's C&C section is currently 1196 words.
<xrarwt> Do you understand what I'm saying now?
<Melee_Mewtwo> shrang's c&c is split as well
<xrarwt> Yes, it's kind of split. The only problem is that it's 1196 words outright.
<Melee_Mewtwo> but there's a lot less fluff and hype
<xrarwt> Hmm… Actually, my C&C section is shorter at 1142 words (1065 if we get rid of the introduction), and will be much easier to read thanks to the hide tags.
<xrarwt> We can always edit out the fluff and hype.
<xrarwt> If applicable of course.
<xrarwt> Do you have a better idea now Melee Mewtwo? Or am I missing something?
<Melee_Mewtwo> I'd much rather work with what shrang has and shrink it if needed
<Melee_Mewtwo> than with the clusterfuck you currently have up
<Melee_Mewtwo> tbh
<Melee_Mewtwo> again
<xrarwt> It only looks like that because of the JavaScript. Onsite, you won't see it.
<Melee_Mewtwo> I would rather be responding to all this
<Melee_Mewtwo> in the conversation
<Melee_Mewtwo> then via another 1 on 1 pm
<xrarwt> Sorry :(.
<xrarwt> Anyway, if we really wanted an unsplit C&C section that you seem to prefer, we could probably try that. However, like I said earlier, the last time I tried that, I only got to ~900 words.
<Melee_Mewtwo> then to be frank
<xrarwt> However, while this is ~300 words less than shrang, it's still unreadable.
<Melee_Mewtwo> if you can't manage this analysis
<Melee_Mewtwo> it would be best in other hands
<xrarwt> Don't worry Melee Mewtwo, I still think I can finish up this analysis.
<Melee_Mewtwo> cool
<Melee_Mewtwo> let me know when the wip is done so I can properly respond
<xrarwt> Got it. Anyway, how about I provide a non-hide tag C&C section and the hide tag C&C section so you guys can compare? Thoughts?
<xrarwt> That way, you'd be able to weigh out the advantages/disadvantages of each with something in front of you.
<xrarwt> Cool with this?
<Melee_Mewtwo> I'm still of the opinion that if we have to resort to hide tags
<Melee_Mewtwo> we aren't doing it right
<xrarwt> True, it certainly is unprecedented.
<xrarwt> But who knows, it might be our best option.
<Melee_Mewtwo> there's a reason it's not be done before
<Melee_Mewtwo> that's because it's only viable for analyses that are too long otherwise
<Melee_Mewtwo> which is something we want to avoid as much as possible
<Melee_Mewtwo> and have been able to do so
<Melee_Mewtwo> with much more important analyses than this one
<Melee_Mewtwo> so I don't see why this would suddenly change
<xrarwt> True, but not many other analyses have three different sets with very different answers. That and you guys want to add a LOT of checks to this C&C section.
<Melee_Mewtwo> kyogre?
<Melee_Mewtwo> previous arc-n?
<Melee_Mewtwo> fuck even jirach in OU
<Melee_Mewtwo> has like a bazillion different sets
<xrarwt> Hmm...
<xrarwt> Let me show you something:
<xrarwt> Best/Only Counter
<xrarwt> • Unaware Quagsire
<xrarwt> Top Defensive Checks (Which are viable in Ubers)
<xrarwt> • Skarmory
<xrarwt> • Wallceus
<xrarwt> • Giratina
<xrarwt> • Lugia
<xrarwt> Checks in Order of Overall Effectiveness
<xrarwt> 1. Terrakion
<xrarwt> 2. Sableye
<xrarwt> 3. Arceus-Ghost
<xrarwt> 4. Groudon
<xrarwt> 5. Hippowdon
<xrarwt> 6. Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Steel
<xrarwt> 7. Arceus-Fighting
<xrarwt> 8. Bronzong
<xrarwt> 9. Scarf Dialga, Scarf Heatran
<xrarwt> 10. Swift Swim Kabutops and Omastar
<xrarwt> 11. Physically Defensive Giratina-O
<xrarwt> 12. Toxic + Pain Split Physically Defensive Forretress
<xrarwt> 13. Physically Defensive Ferrothorn
<xrarwt> ________
<xrarwt> That's the list of stuff you guys wanted for Extreme Killer.
<xrarwt> Here's Wallceus:
<xrarwt> Counters:
<xrarwt>     Arceus-Fighting
<xrarwt>     Arceus-Fire
<xrarwt>     Stallbreaker Heatran
<xrarwt> Checks:
<xrarwt>     Xatu
<xrarwt>     Heracross
<xrarwt>     Reshiram
<xrarwt>     Victini
<xrarwt>     Blaziken
<xrarwt>     Boosting special attackers (if Arceus is not using Roar)
<xrarwt>     Extremely strong special attackers such as Kyogre or Kyurem-W
<xrarwt>     Ho-Oh
<xrarwt>     Support Pokemon with Toxic - Especially if they have Refresh, Rest/Sleep Talk, etc. (if Arceus is not using Refresh)
<xrarwt> __________
<xrarwt> And etc. etc.
<xrarwt> __________________
<Melee_Mewtwo> k
<Melee_Mewtwo> and i think this is doable
<Melee_Mewtwo> again though this should all be something I responding to in that conversation
<Melee_Mewtwo> I really need to be teambuilding atm for the open
<xrarwt> I think so too. And don't worry, we'll talk about it more in the conversation :).
<xrarwt> Anyway, I'll get you guys those C&C section stuff so you can compare. You obviously don't want hide tags, so that's at least one point in non-hide tags favor.
<xrarwt> Also Melee Mewtwo, about that "deadline".
<Melee_Mewtwo> I'm sorry I need to work with sweep now
<xrarwt> I understand.
<xrarwt> Anyway, thanks for talking to me and good luck with Ubers Open!
<Melee_Mewtwo> thanks
<xrarwt> Would you like me to PM you once I finish my response?
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah just a quick it's done
<Melee_Mewtwo> would be nice
<xrarwt> No problem :).
<xrarwt> Anyway, it has been nice talking to you Melee Mewtwo; I think it's best if I left you to your teambuilding.
<xrarwt> See you around!
<Melee_Mewtwo> okay bye
<xrarwt> Bye.
<Melee_Mewtwo> jw, is the comment going to be finished sometime today or should I expect another day for it?
<Melee_Mewtwo> um I think I'll just end up responding to what you haveup now
<Melee_Mewtwo> since I have the time for it atm
<Melee_Mewtwo> and might not later sinc school is starting up