April 19, 1973 Richard Nixon Henry Petersen

TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF A MEETING BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND HENRY PETERSEN IN THE OVAL OFFICE ON APRIL 19, 1973, FROM 10:12 TO 11:07 A.M.

A meeting between Nixon and the Assistant Attorney General, Henry Petersen, after the Watergate investigation is well under way and filled with fascinating moments. The president tells Petersen why they needed a plumber team to go after Daniel Ellsberg: because Hoover was compromised by his friendship with Louis Marx, the father of Ellsberg's wife. Break-ins and wiretaps are defended in the name of national security, and with regard to conversations about national security, says Nixon, "any conversations with the President are obviously privileged." Talk about the wiretapping of journalists has an intriguing blank space: "Hoover for years," Nixon says, "bugged the..." and the rest is withdrawn due to national security. Nixon defenders would ultimately try to shift all blame for Watergate and the cover-up on John Dean; here, Nixon shifts all the blame on his good friend John Mitchell, and blames Dean for trying to defend Mitchell. This meeting between Nixon and an Assistant Attorney General investigating the administration ends with the president offering Petersen the job of FBI director, which Petersen declines for obvious reasons of conflict of interest.

The audio for the following conversation can be found here:
http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape902/902-003.mp3

Clip of audio accompanied by transcript is on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBZl9gCuZ0

Transcript up to "Well, I think we are going to have to do something..." is by the Watergate Special Prosecution Force (WSPF); remaining transcript is by the uploader, with help from John Dean's The Nixon Defense, which was also useful for supplements and edits for the WSPF portion.

WSPF transcript can be found here:
http://millercenter.org/images/presidentialrecordings/watergate/wspf_transcripts/WSFP_902-002_902-003.pdf

The name of Henry Brandon mentioned here was isolated as the unnamed British journalist who was wiretapped thanks to this compilation of documents related to Nixon's wiretapping program:
http://www.paperlessarchives.com/FreeTitles/NixonJournalistsWiretapsFBIFiles.pdf

The following are contemporary articles on the intersection of Louis Marx, J. Edgar Hoover, and Daniel Ellsberg, from the very helpful Harold Weisberg archive:
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20%20Files/Watergate/Watergate%20Items%2005324%20to%2005578/Watergate%2005517.pdf
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/Watergate/Watergate%20Items%2005093%20to%2005323/Watergate%20Items%2005122.pdf

PRESIDENT: Come on in.

PETERSEN: Morning, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT: I wanted to get, get you back in the court room. I wanted to tell you that...which I think probably should be brief, but you got to keep in mind that this whole thing is very off the record.

PETERSEN: Yes, sir. I need to know.

PRESIDENT: Well...the problem basically is this. This is the Ellsberg case, wi. You remember our late, dear departed friend, Edgar Hoover. You will recall, you know how he handled the Ellsberg case. Personally, it involved [Louis] Marx. He was one of his closest friends. Marx. Not the Marx Brothers, but the toy makers.

PETERSEN: Mmmhmm.

PRESIDENT: Marx's daughter is married to Ellsberg...and Hoover just kicked and churned and said, "I'm just not going to investigate this thing. I can't do it." I mean, why...this is at least what we got through Mitchell. Under the circumstances, under the circumstances, Henry, an investigation was undertaken with a very, very small crew...at the White House. That's where the Hunt group...nothing in terms of break-ins or anything was approved. But seeing what these crazy bastards have done since, and seeing what now...the investigation also and this is the hopeful thing as far as the prosecution...they didn't do a damn bit of good. I mean all they got, they got mostly what's appeared in the papers, that Ellsberg had psychiatric problems, that Ellsberg was a, he'd learned from Henry Kissinger, one of his students one time, quite a, apparently...quite a sucker.

PETERSEN: Well, by the time I told Peters-

PRESIDENT: The point I make is this: none of it went to the prosecution. Then after that finally Hoover got into it. Now, when Hoover got into it...now, when Hoover got into it...as you know, he wiretapped it.

PETERSEN: Mmmhmm.

PRESIDENT: He did, there's no question about that. I don't know who he wiretapped. But I mean that national security taps were used at that time and then as you know, with the hullabaloo that arose out there we knocked off all of those taps...except for the bag jobs, we do on that (unintelligible). I am quite aware of the fact that we do a lot of business in this field.

PETERSEN: Yes sir, yes sir. And I don't know ---

PRESIDENT: I just want you to know. I just want you to know that my purpose--

PETERSEN: Yeah, it could hardly be called illegal in this field--

PRESIDENT: My purpose in the Hunt thing in calling you is simply to say it is, it was a national security investigation. It is not related in any way to the Watergate thing.

PETERSEN: Correct.

PRESIDENT: And that the purpose of it was...

PETERSEN: Well, is there any other...you know I can't stay away from that which I don't know.

PRESIDENT: Sure. Sure. Did Hunt do anything else?

PETERSEN: Is there any other national security stuff that we could --

PRESIDENT: Yes.

PETERSEN: -inadvertently get into through Hunt.

PRESIDENT: Yes, you could get into other things. For example...Hunt...Hunt...involved in bugging, apparently. He tried...for example, on one occasion, he was...it was basically the whole Ellsberg period, you know, this place was leaking like a sieve, and you remember Kissinger's National Security [Council] people.

PETERSEN: Yes, sir. I do.

PRESIDENT: We had a horrible time, and frankly the country was in jeopardy because I...it was in peril and our situation with foreign governments and, a lot of others that I'd get Hoover in, I'd say, "Goddamn it, we've got to...", eventually I cut him out, I've got to get evidence for myself. I'll hear what it was. You know how Hoover was. You know, but he hated to get into anything involving press. So when you...I think though, quite candidly, Hoover for years, you should know this...bugged the, uh...

NATSEC WITHDRAWN

PETERSEN: I remember the situation, but I don't know the whole thing.

PRESIDENT: Henry [Kissinger] knows his name. Christ, what's his name? You know that (unintelligible) fop, elegant British correspondent here, who (unintelligible). What's his name? [Henry Brandon, correspondent for the London Sunday Times] I can't tell you.

PETERSEN: I remember the entire thing, I remember. I know who you mean but I can't recall his name, either.

PRESIDENT: -for years, because he says, because Hoover says-

NATSEC WITHDRAWN

PRESIDENT: And I know that when I first came into office he [Hoover] used to send that stuff over here by the carload. He used to love that sort of thing. That we discontinued also. We discontinued that.

PETERSEN: Well, I should say, Mr. President, just coincidentally that since they transferred the Internal Security Division to me, uh...

PRESIDENT: You have (unintelligible)

PETERSEN: Yes. And I-I. But I'm also, uh...

PRESIDENT: I don't know...

PETERSEN: The authority runs from you to the Attorney General.

PRESIDENT: Certainly.

PETERSEN: The way some of it is being exercised is only an application.

PRESIDENT: What?

PETERSEN: The way some of it is being exercised is only an application.. I just set up. I just set up.

PRESIDENT: I don't want the Goddamned thing knocked off, you understand. I understand it's been knocked off. I want some, I don't want any  (unintelligible) understand you're going after gangsters or other things like that. It just isn't worth it.

PETERSEN: No. I am not talking about the national security stuff in the country. I am talking about either foreign intelligence stuff. I am holding some of them up, because they're being approved by a Deputy somebody over at the State Department and we are tightening up the procedure. That's all.

PRESIDENT: The President approves these things.

PETERSEN: I understand.

PRESIDENT: I don't know about the Attorney General...

NATSEC WITHDRAWN

PRESIDENT: Anyway, there was that. Now, you have also heard about Joe Kraft [columnist].

PETERSEN: Yes, sir.

PRESIDENT: You've read that column? That was a Hoover bug...I think. (Unintelligible) I'm not sure. But what it involved were leaks of national security documents that had gotten into Kraft's columns and so forth and so on. Nothing came of it as a result except, they, I think, fired somebody over here. Now that's, now that's another thing.

PETERSEN: Right.

PRESIDENT: I just wanted you to know that they are investigating, but it is miniscule compared to what Johnson was doing. You--you know what I mean. As you know, it was very heavy during that period...very, very heavy. Just ask Bill Sullivan [former Assistant Director of the FBI] he's written a memorandum to me and it was pretty shocking. He went after [Adlai] Stevenson on the Democratic Committee and also bugged our plane during the campaign.

PETERSEN: I understand.

PRESIDENT: Now, my point is that that doesn't justify anything now. But in the case of the Hunt thing, you should know that when he was at the White House and he was working in the field of drugs...he worked on this particular activity and Liddy worked with him as I understand. I think Liddy did too. This, I found out, but frankly, I really didn't know this myself until this case came out. I said, "What in the name of God is Hunt doing?" I understand now what he was doing and I would have approved at the time because we had nothing that we could get out of Hoover. Hoover did conduct the investigation and did a hell of a good job. Hoover did recommend the investigation to the prosecution on Ellsberg...which I think is probably safe. I don't know if he will make it or not.

PETERSEN: I don't know either.

PRESIDENT: I hope so.

PETERSEN: Incidentally...

PRESIDENT: The point is, I want you to understand that I have never used the word national security unless it is. As far as Watergate is concerned, or any of that crap, you just burn your ass. Like, when I called you the other day I said I am not going to let any stone unturned and that is what you and I have got to understand. But on national security...but I am anxious to get one or two things, Henry, very important. In terms of privilege...that you have to act. One: any conversations with the President are obviously privileged. Any question on that?

PETERSEN: Yes, sir. I understand that.

PRESIDENT: That should be, that should be something that everybody should do, have in mind. And anything in the in the national security area, but even ask...everybody around here now, you got Dean on the carpet, Ehrlichman and Haldeman attached to the carpet, so just ask me,  if it's national security...I did try to (unintelligible) if Hunt was involved in the Ellsberg...and he was involved we called it the plumbing operation. And basically it was leaks from the National Security Council which appeared in the columns. That's all. And it involved only and did not involve any uh, as I understand it, any uh any electronic device, eavesdropping, but it involved a hell of an investigation, one hell of a lot.

PETERSEN: I indicated to you--

PRESIDENT: That’s as much as I know about it at this time.

PETERSEN: I indicated to you the other day-–

PRESIDENT: I don't know whether Dean...Dean may have been quite familiar with this because he was very much, you know what I mean, he was sort of in charge of this kind of activity...and he may be familiar with it, he may not be...but I have tried to get this sorted out. I have just had them on it over here, as you know, what did they do...and what is there as far as I am concerned, anything went wrong, but I don't want anything coming out on the Ellsberg thing.

PETERSEN: Right.

PRESIDENT: We had to do it. I don't want anything coming out on what we were doing with embassies. I don't want anything coming out what we were doing with the embassies that slopped over with Hoover. It's not going to look very good with Hoover. I want the Bureau any more than that.

PETERSEN: No (unintelligible).

PRESIDENT: Just-just...I am hoping for the day when the man I have in mind for that job gets away from what he is presently doing so I can put him in but we have got to get a man in there and fast. And I am going to clean everybody out of the Bureau, at second level. Everybody.

PETERSEN: Well...he needs...

PRESIDENT: Yeah, he's a little...as you know...You know you...with a job like his. (Unintelligible)

PETERSEN: It's not a job anybody should run for, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT: What is that?

PETERSEN: It's not a job anybody should ask for or run for. The responsibilities are almost as great as your Office.

PRESIDENT: You should know that I felt...that you were...you came highly commended. Mitchell said Henry Petersen is the best guy for the job.

PETERSEN: Even in this present difficulty, I'm flattered.

PRESIDENT: Well, it’s a hell of a thing...a very important thing.

PETERSEN: Mr. President, the other day I indicated that we had a problem with leaks, and as you know, we do.

PRESIDENT: It was shocking to me to see Strachan's testimony--not his latest testimony...where the U.S. Attorney—

PETERSEN: Well, I think we are going to have to do something...

PRESIDENT: Verbatim. Verbatim. And I don't know what...doesn't that have some effect on the legality of this thing?

PETERSEN: Yes sir. And I, don't want any diversions-

PRESIDENT: Fire all of these attorneys (unintelligible). You probably know him.

PETERSEN: John Wilson [lawyer for Ehrlichman and Haldeman]?

PRESIDENT: Remember the old hand.

PETERSEN: Oh yes. I know him very well. Very good, decent.

PRESIDENT: Highly honored and respected. He thinks this is a very, very vulnerable point in their case.

PETERSEN: Well, if Woodward [journalist Bob Woodward], would consider-

PRESIDENT: Our case.

PETERSEN: What (unintelligible) you to do?

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) There's somebody there. It's either somebody in the U.S. Attorney's office...reporters don't do this thing, Henry, you know that. They don't do that. Bullshit. This sort of thing comes from somebody there. It's either Titus [Harold Titus, U.S. Attorney], or it's, uh, what's the other person?

PETERSEN: Silbert [Earl Silbert, Assistant U.S. Attorney].

PRESIDENT: Silbert. Or the other one...

PETERSEN: Glanzer [Seymour Glanzer, U.S. Attorney].

PRESIDENT: Glanzer. Notorious leaker. You know it, I know it.

PETERSEN: I tell you, I've been reluctant to burp anything from this effort. But I have another group entirely apart from the prosecution group. Now exploring what we can do, whether we get a temporary injunction, or a restraining order...We're going to have to do something, Mr. President. It's getting too bad.

PRESIDENT: Restrain Hunt?

PETERSEN: Uuuuuh- Restrain the reporter. Uuuuuh-

PRESIDENT: The reporter? Yeah, Goddamnit. Restrain their people.

PETERSEN: Well, you know, uh, that...

PRESIDENT: This is a case by God, (unintelligible). You have a right to renounce.

PETERSEN: No sir.

PRESIDENT: It's a national security case.

PETERSEN: Sir.

PRESIDENT: It's such a fucking thing.

PETERSEN: And uh...

PRESIDENT: I'm sorry...

PETERSEN: It's basically...

PRESIDENT: I'll try to make a note of this...

PETERSEN: It's grounds for contempt.

PRESIDENT: You told me, I didn't know this. You said the release was major, I didn't know what you were talking about, and then I picked up this news in the morning, and I thought, VERBATIM. Verbatim! My sense was accurate. I don't know, I had to talk to Strachan, so I called him. Was it accurate?

PETERSEN: I understand it's accurate, too.

PRESIDENT: Does it concern you?

PETERSEN: It does.

PRESIDENT: Does it concern Titus?

PETERSEN: Well sure.

PRESIDENT: Does it concern Silbert?

PETERSEN: Yes.

PRESIDENT: Does it concern Glanzer?

PETERSEN: Yes sir.

PRESIDENT: You sure?

PETERSEN: I've had them all in. You know, we've talked-

PRESIDENT: Well, don't take any crap!

PETERSEN: We're...

PRESIDENT: If they lied, then they lied to people around here, that tells you they're swine, I'm going after these people, we're going to find the truth here.

PETERSEN: Well, we're going to have to-

PRESIDENT: You're responsible-

PETERSEN: They have the only copy of the grand jury!

PRESIDENT: Huh?

PETERSEN: They have the only copy of the grand jury stuff! Uuuhhh...

PRESIDENT: Big problem is, when you say, that this is coming from a grand jury member, the long...

PETERSEN: Hold on, I'm not talking about the grand jury, I'm talking about the reporter. The tran...the reporter service. We had Bureau agents over there yesterday. We've got to do something. Uuuhhh...

PRESIDENT: What reporter service, Henry?

PETERSEN: The Grand Jury report. It's a prior reporting service. I'm not sure which one, there are two or three in town that we use. Uuuhhh...

PRESIDENT: Let me ask you a couple of other things. Uuuhhh...

PETERSEN: Yes.

PRESIDENT: On this list of the so-called privileges and so forth...let me just say, that you handle it. I mean I can't come over there, I mean I have my counselor, but you use your judgement on it. The U.S. attorneys have got to be instructed that within the national security area, any conversation with the president, that's the only thing I consider privileged, anything else, give it to them. Understand? Don't you agree? If you don't you think that's the proper position, then tell me so.

PETERSEN: The only problem with that...the only big problem with that...is that if a problem in that area comes up, and I can't resolve it, I'll just have to come back to it.

PRESIDENT: Sure. Sure. I told you what it's for. So you can see what was done...in that area. (Unintelligible.) Now, let me come to the other thing. I still have not asked Dean...I still have not, as you know...I felt that it is not the proper thing to ask Dean for his resignation, for the reasons that I've already told Haldeman and Ehrlichman, and told, you know, corroborated testimony of events. As far as you're concerned, that position (unintelligible).

PETERSEN: Well, I-

PRESIDENT: I don't mean, I mean, whether, in terms of the prosecution.

PETERSEN: Yes. It's alright.

PRESIDENT: Fine. On Dean, of course, I don't know where that story...the Washington Post has this morning...

PETERSEN: More different...

PRESIDENT: Or do you think that came from Magruder?

PETERSEN: Magruder's a possibility. Magruder's a possibility. The story says, the sub says...

PRESIDENT: The story, what I gather, is inaccurate in one respect. John Dean...John Dean, throughout this period, up until...February 2, I asked him, I asked him for his advice, I think as far as the Vietnam peace settlement...I sat with him...and I found at least ten hours, I said, "John," I said, "Was anybody in the White House, including yourself, did anybody know this?" He said, "No." If that doesn't tell you, as far as his prior participation is concerned, he knew of meetings, but he thought it was turned off. Now, that's what he tells me. Does he change his story around?

PETERSEN: Well...basically, that's what he tells us. The point is, nobody, as I indicated before, nobody exercised any initiative and said, to ensure it was turned off.

PRESIDENT: Let me ask you about John Dean. John Dean's report to me, what he said, and when Ziegler made his comment, and I made at San Clemente that the White House was not involved, that was based on Dean's oral report-

PETERSEN: Mr. President, he told the same thing to me, repeatedly.

PRESIDENT: Did he?

PETERSEN: Yeah, in the course of our conversation. Throughout this whole thing.

PRESIDENT: This was early?

PETERSEN: Pardon?

PRESIDENT: When did he tell you that? You have to understand, that this, what what gets me...and I think he had the best intentions, I think he was concerned about Mitchell, I don't know, I don't know. He said, he just didn't want to open up at all. But he said, no one in the White House was involved. Now that, however, could be precisely true. Yet he wasn't telling me about Mitchell.

PETERSEN: Well, that's right-

PRESIDENT: What did you ask him about?

PETERSEN: Of course, I was dealing with him all along in this thing.

PRESIDENT: Sure.

PETERSEN: And I would say to him, "John...I know..."

PRESIDENT: See, you had an obligation, Henry, if he was talking to you something about Haldeman or Ehrlichman or Mitchell was involved, you should have told me. Or Mitchell.

PETERSEN: -if he had tried to give me any of that stuff then, I would say, "John, are you sure? I don't know what you're doing with this information. Are you sure that it's not getting out?" And he would say, he never identified it, he'd say, "Henry, this information you give me, doesn't go any place but up." Well, up, to me, meant only Ehrlichman and Haldeman and you, which was perfectly alright with me.

PRESIDENT: Alright. Alright. Yep.

PETERSEN: Or some-

PRESIDENT: Anything related to the Grand Jury?

PETERSEN: No, information on the status of the investigation.

PRESIDENT: Oh that, alright. I see. What I'm talking about is something else. Throughout your investigation, during these months that we were relying on Dean, you must have asked Dean whether or not anybody in the White House was involved.

PETERSEN: And he said no.

PRESIDENT: What did he say about himself?

PETERSEN: Well, I- I never asked him the question-

PRESIDENT: You just assumed he was-

PETERSEN: -the, no, I would say-

PRESIDENT: Dean (unintelligible) at the White House staff.

PETERSEN: That's right. He would say, "I can assure you nobody in the White House-"

PRESIDENT: See the point is, the point that I'm making, is very important, let me say about the environment of justice and crisis...thing, we all think, why didn't we, check the accuracy of what Dean was doing, see. He was making an investigation for us, first of all. Said no one in the White House was involved. So we did the same thing.

PETERSEN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: Up until when? Well, up until when-

PETERSEN: Well, up until this.

PRESIDENT: Poor sonofabitch. I feel for him. Let me say with (unintelligible) I don't know what you should do in his situation. He just have to do whatever you think is right. Except the only problem I have with the immunity side, the problem I have to say, with you, is how the hell is it going to look?

PETERSEN: Mr. President, I'm just going to push it off, and I was hoping that the additional evidence would come in...

PRESIDENT: How about the people?

PETERSEN: -will make our bargaining position with Dean better. And then we can drive a harder bargain. About our conversation of last night, I'm getting a memorandum which I'll make available to you, on what has been extended to Dean up to this point. They tell me that his lawyer fully understands that no promise of immunity in any shape or form has been extended to Dean as of this time, and that...

PRESIDENT: Let me understand, let me say one thing. I am not...I am not suggesting to you that you not grant immunity because of my desire...

PETERSEN: I understand.

PRESIDENT: ...to absolve Haldeman or Ehrlichman. You understand?

PETERSEN: I understand.

PRESIDENT: You understand?

PETERSEN: No sir.

PRESIDENT: I'll simply say this-

PETERSEN: Mr. President, let me say something. I've got-

PRESIDENT: -corroborate the testimony. Don't do it on the basis of that, because I think...I must say, I regret to say that I'm afraid Dean is telling you two different stories here.

PETERSEN: Let me tell you what-

PRESIDENT: You've got...I know this...that he told me quite a different story for a period of time. He kept asking me if he was advising us as to what he was doing, going on, during this period. And I said in answer, "John, what's the story here? What's the deal?" And so forth. He said, he did think Mitchell and Magruder told me about that. That is what I believe. Even then, maybe he told you the same thing, he said, I said "Can you say, as a matter of fact, that Mitchell knew of this?" And he said, "No." He said [Nixon means I said], "Can you say as a matter of fact that Magruder knew?" He said, "Magruder may have approved." But he says, "Magruder may not have known about this, that, or the other thing." And there he was being a little, shall we say...

PETERSEN: I don't have any problem with what you're saying. If I reach the point where I would think...frankly, I would come and say "Mr. President, we're at odds. I can't do it." I don't think that.

PRESIDENT: We're trying to get to the bottom of this case.

PETERSEN: My problem is, establishing the credibility of Magruder, and Strachan, and Dean. That's what's taking them so long. Magruder and Strachan are in some conflict. Now, I'm trying to put them both on the lie detector. I don't have much all that much credit, faith in it...

PRESIDENT: You think you could do that, could you?

PETERSEN: Yes sir. If they're willing. Not without their consent, of course, but...

PRESIDENT: I thought if Colson was stupid, he'd need a lie detector test, but Jesus Christ, I mean, that's, another thing.

PETERSEN: You mean with all the over-reaction?

PRESIDENT: Well, his lawyer thinks...it looks as if...

PETERSEN: It looks as if...

PRESIDENT: I couldn't be a greater friend of Chuck's, but I think his lawyer is giving him bad advice, because what in the hell...uh, that should cover all the questions, but Dean...

PETERSEN: That's right. Well, we've got key questions on Magruder and Strachan, with respect to Haldeman.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

PETERSEN: That's what's scares all of us.

PRESIDENT: The key questions there...what are the differences of the two sides?

PETERSEN: Well, Strachan says Haldeman got the budget, but he didn't know anything about...you know, in essence, the content.

PRESIDENT: As to whether to not, he didn't know whether or not the budget he approved contained bugging.

PETERSEN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: Key point. Magruder says?

PETERSEN: And Magruder says he was given a product of the intercepts.

PRESIDENT: Yeah. Did he say he got the budget? What about the budget?

PETERSEN: Magruder says that too.

PRESIDENT: Magruder says they all got the budget, plus...

PETERSEN: Plus the intercepts. Strachan says no. We're going to try to put them both on lie detectors and see if we can get them both...

PRESIDENT: Is there anybody else?

PETERSEN: Uh...

PRESIDENT: Chuck Colson?

PETERSEN: Well (unintelligible)-

PRESIDENT: Coming back to the Ehrlichman thing, you're still on the point of...what happened in that? What you call the "deep six crap".

PETERSEN: That's all we have, yes sir.

PRESIDENT: You have any thoughts on that?

PETERSEN: No sir.

PRESIDENT: Except one thing, I think...that whether he might have had knowledge, that they were trying to help the defense.

PETERSEN: Yes, that's-

PRESIDENT: That, that's something that, for example...Dean told me, told me, this was what really triggered my own investigation. Frankly, to get Dean out of it, early on. He told me that Bittman [William O. Bittman, Hunt's lawyer] had talked to him about having them turn in attorneys' fees and support for Hunt. And uh, I said, "My God," I said, "You can't go down this road." I have to give Dean credit, I said "What would it cost for you to keep order in the defendants?" He said, "A million dollars." I said, "Well, maybe we can get that." Jesus Christ.

PRESIDENT: I think that that...

PRESIDENT: I tell you even then...and he said, I said, "That's blackmail. But you can't go down this road, John. What are you trying to do? Trying to get back..." See that's the whole point. That's how, you know...you know, (unintelligible), I said what there, what, uh, Bittman, he's Hunt's lawyer...

PETERSEN: Yes, he is.

PRESIDENT: These guys, he had a correspondence in attorney's fees. And frankly, the work case is getting their attorneys' fees for the purpose of...you know what, the earlier point, about Ehrlichman and Magruder and Haldeman in the campaign, at this late date, to ask for attorneys' fees and so forth, the hell was that?

PETERSEN: I don't know. Well, that's a very sensitive issue for our friend Bittman. Uh...

PRESIDENT: You know Bittman?

PETERSEN: Very well, because I got...he's a very able lawyer, I've worked with him, I've known him.

PRESIDENT: Well I've known lawyers, Jesus Christ, they do, a poor damn lawyer does what he has to do, I guess.

PETERSEN: I've felt free to associate...

PRESIDENT: Let me say, let me say, I...forget that I...Dean told me about this conversation, and that's the only time...but the only time that Ehrlichman, ever heard...and I think that this is very important, because I asked John, they don't lie to me. I'm telling you. I think Dean did. But not viciously, but that he was lying for the purposes of you know, Goddamn...Ehrlichman and Haldeman are not lying.

PETERSEN: I hope that's right, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT: They don't lie. I can vouch for them. That's why...but that's why, my view, of course is a little different from yours. At the moment, anything happened...BAM! No question, without any question. Now let me say that Ehrlichman, [and] everybody around here, had to be aware of the fact, everybody in town, of the stories to the effect that these defendants were getting something. You know, that they were getting attorneys’ fees, the Mrs. Hunt stories and so forth, when she died. And Dean, on one occasion, apparently did talk to Ehrlichman about the need for that. And Ehrlichman said, frankly, being, thank god, a very good lawyer, "I can’t have anything to do with it." That’s a problem you’ll have to work out with the lawyer. Ehrlichman, curiously enough, was the...and Haldeman too, were both advocates...at the convention, when this thing came up, to what I call the "let it all hang out" thing. I said, "For Christ's sakes, let it all hang out." They couldn't get Mitchell. See, the key to this thing is Mitchell. I'm just talking between us. Mitchell wouldn't do it. I said John...I mean, I never asked him. I never asked John Mitchell what he knows about. But the point was that, what should have happened after this was that John Mitchell should have stepped up and said, look, I was not minding the store, and these kids did these jackass things, and I'm terribly sorry, and plead, whatever you want me to plead, and let's get on with the campaign. But he wouldn't do it. And there starts the tragedy.

PETERSEN: It would have been much better, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT: But it’s too late now. There started the tragedy. And now we have to do it by law. On this basis, you have Strachan at odds with Magruder?

PETERSEN: Yes.

PRESIDENT: Both before the Grand Jury? No? Yes?

PETERSEN: Well, Magruder's a pre-Grand Jury statement...

PRESIDENT: You mentioned that. You likely to do those under oath?

PETERSEN: I don't think he's under oath at this point as a matter of fact.

PRESIDENT: Isn't he? He isn't under oath. In essence, the question is, if Magruder says that Haldeman got the tape, and Strachan says, we got stuff, but I didn't recognize it as the tape, is that basically the case?

PETERSEN: That's basically it. That's right.

PRESIDENT: Awfully hard to make a case on that.

PETERSEN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: Awfully hard to make a case, isn't it?

PETERSEN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: One man against the other, which one do you believe? Three fifty is the other thing, I see that. That Haldeman had to be aware, according to anybody...

PETERSEN: That may come out to be the toughest issue.

PRESIDENT: What?

PETERSEN: That may come out to be the toughest issue so far as Haldeman's concerned.

PRESIDENT: Basically, he had these funds made available at the request of LaRue and all. (Unintelligible.) Man certainly had knowledge of the fact that the funds were used for certain purposes. I think that's down this case, I suppose. I guess John Wilson will handle this. For what purpose? When? The other thing on Ehrlichman is the "Deep Six" thing...

PETERSEN: Yes sir. Well, that's uh...

PRESIDENT: -ran, packed Gray's box, Jesus Christ.

PETERSEN: If he [Patrick Gray, serving director of the FBI] had at least read the documents, it would be alright.

PRESIDENT: If he had what?

PETERSEN: He tells me now...

PRESIDENT: That he didn't read them?

PETERSEN: That he didn't read them and he burned them. He had no idea what he burned.

PRESIDENT: And based on the fact that he was told that there were political docs, political stuff...

PETERSEN: No question. Dean and Ehrlichman.

PRESIDENT: What?

PETERSEN: By Dean and Ehrlichman.

PRESIDENT: What's the situation with Dean? Is it...basically, Dean's position, Henry, is that he was just a conduit...

PETERSEN: Dean's position is that he was an agent. He was an information gatherer. From all sorts of-

PRESIDENT: In other words, "Did Mitchell do things?" "Did Haldeman do things?" "Did Ehrlichman do things?" Etc.

PETERSEN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: That's going to be hard to prove. Very hard. We've gone through the files. I say we have. I said, "We'll see what the situation is."

PETERSEN: Well, the whole case is going to be hard to prove, Mr. President, because it has to be entirely a testimonial case. There are very little documents that are available. To corroborate anything.

PRESIDENT: There are no documents, huh?

PETERSEN: That's right. So we have to use the testimony of insiders and those people.

PRESIDENT: Yeah. So that's going to be the people that are involved.

PETERSEN: That's right.

PRESIDENT: It's a tough case.

PETERSEN: That's right. It is indeed.

PRESIDENT: Thank god.

PETERSEN: You have got to corroborate-

PRESIDENT: I never resist...I said my own exposure to criminal law was the Hiss case.

PETERSEN: Well, and it becomes terrible when the case has political connotations.

PRESIDENT: Sure.

PETERSEN: Because then the motives multiply, at a mathematical rate-

PRESIDENT: Let me say, Henry, we made a mistake. I hope you think I made the right move when I made the announcement that we're going to just (unintelligible). That's it.

PETERSEN: Yes sir. Indeed so.

PRESIDENT: Coming back to your old business of...immunity. That apparently, you've got to grant that. When I say, you, the Attorney General has to-

PETERSEN: When he's out. I have to.

PRESIDENT: Yes, I know. When I approached you...fair enough?

PETERSEN: Fair enough. I'm not sure it's enjoyable, but it's fair enough.

PRESIDENT: Right. So, you've got to talk to Haldeman, haven't you?

PETERSEN: Yes sir. Well, that's an anticipatory problem.

PRESIDENT: When you get to that, though, you've got to get Dean out of there, and (unintelligible)...is he sitting at home, waiting for you?

PETERSEN: Yes sir.

PRESIDENT: Where's his lawyer?

PETERSEN: He's sitting too, and frankly, that's part of our bargaining process.

PRESIDENT: How do you mean?

PETERSEN: To let them sit and soak...know that we're in the Grand Jury, we're getting other evidence...

PRESIDENT: You've got evidence on them. You know you've got evidence on Dean. That is not pre-, not pre- necessarily, because on the pre-, he told me, and I believe him on this, that he came and said, "Let's not have anything to do with this shit." And Colson said, "I think you're right." But...so on that, I'm sure, Dean is telling the truth, that he sat in a conversation, but he's never, he's never told a single untruth on that. Do you agree? Do you believe him, that he did not know that this thing went forward?

PETERSEN: Uh...we're not ready to conclude on that.

PRESIDENT: Yeah. But that's what he says?

PETERSEN: That's what he says. But we say not to have-

PRESIDENT: Now. The problem that he has is that, one subornation of perjury thing, right?

PETERSEN: Yes.

PRESIDENT: Magruder changes that, right? How does he handle that? Does he say he did that? An agent, that he was told to get these people to contact a story?

PETERSEN: No. We had his...contractual agency is general, he hasn't reduced it to any specific thing.

PRESIDENT: All that I suppose is reduce the charge, doesn't it? Or does that get a man off?

PETERSEN: No, really, it doesn't get a man off. It's no defense at all in law. It's just simply a mitigation of punishment, if anything. It may have some jury appeal in that particular case.

PRESIDENT: The other thing is the issue of the so-called, in the pay-offs and so forth, no? Because he didn't. On that, you could say...you could prove that couldn't you? (Unintelligible) this upper (unintelligible), you gotta prove that Magruder-

PETERSEN: We're not ready to say, ultimately, that we can prove anything. We haven't really begun to marshal the facts, and...

PRESIDENT: How far away are you now?

PETERSEN: It's hard to say. We're...it's a terribly complicated jigsaw puzzle. We're putting pieces together-

PRESIDENT: Do the best you can.

PETERSEN: It's a very slow process.

PRESIDENT: All the co-operation you can from here. On this business of the immunity thing, as I say, you let me know, I'm not gonna protect anybody. Believe me.

PETERSEN: I understand that, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT: I don't placate anybody. But I don't want, I don't want to have anxiety...I think you would agree...if it's one man's word against another, only, then it is not good law.

PETERSEN: It will not-

PRESIDENT: It gives incentive for the one to lie to us.

PETERSEN: That's right. We won't do that.

PRESIDENT: Otherwise, you can say, "Haldeman, you'll spill something on Dean." That I will not tolerate.

PETERSEN: We'll have testimony plus corroboration, before we do anything. And I don't want to do it at all. I mean, Dean's too high on the echelon. Uuuuhhhh...

PRESIDENT: You see, let me ask you one final question...the point that I'm concerned about is, I mean, you've given your advice on...my due is that I want to see some corroboration, I'll be ready to move. I will. I'm very decisive. When I do, it'll probably be noted. On the situation...uh, you know, the Haldeman...let's say Haldeman, who's more vulnerable. The Ehrlichman thing is a, the "Deep Six" thing is, when you look at that, I try to, assuming that he said, and there again, you got words so on and so forth, but assuming he said...that you have to get Hunt out of the country, and then when you find that Hunt did not get out of the country, and the documents were turned over to the head of the FBI, that isn't a helluva lot of a case, is it?

PETERSEN: No sir.

PRESIDENT: You couldn't-

PETERSEN: I don't think that's a case at all.

PRESIDENT: I don't think you can build up on it. Bill Rogers, as I told you, didn't think you had a case on it. I don't know, I asked him about it, he said "What the hell is that?" He said "You can't prove anything on that," You turned it over to the head of the Bureau, what more can a man do?

PETERSEN: Right.

PRESIDENT: Uuuuhhh...and acknowledge the possibility of this, he might have had knowledge. [to a secretary] The company down the hall. [back to Petersen] In the case, in the other case, in view of Haldeman. The charge of Haldeman has something to take. Strachan. And: the three fifty. Those two men. It's okay. Be quite candid with me. Haldeman, who of course, [was a] much better sort of person, (unintelligible) today, was the best of all these guys (unintelligible). Really good guys. I look out for them too. But I had to run the office. (Unintelligible.) Anyway, Haldeman...does it help you at all that Haldeman, say, said this...

(Secretary enters)

PRESIDENT: Jewish league?

SECRETARY: Yes sir. Dr. Kissinger would like to start the briefing.

PRESIDENT: Yes. Yes. Tell him to start the briefing. And I will come in. I'd like him to read the message from the Soviet leaders.

SECRETARY: Fine.

PRESIDENT: At my direction. I'm all tied up. And then I'll come in, tap on the vanity [table], and tell them to get out of here. [back to Petersen] Jewish leaders are trying to re-assure them with regard to Soviet emigration of six hundred Jews.

PETERSEN: Yes.

PRESIDENT: Getting them in. See, you want to pull them through. Get a message to the Soviets...Probably won't satisfy them, I must say. (Unintelligible.) I told Ribicoff yesterday, Chairman Ribicoff [Abraham Ribicoff]...alright (unintelligible), do you want to risk arms limitations, SALT II [Strategic Arms Limitation Talks], MBFR, Mutual and Balanced Force Reduction, do you want to risk the Soviets restraining itself in the Mideast, do you want to resist the Soviets restraining itself in Southeast Asia? Over something silly, because of this? Do you want to torpedo a meeting with a Soviet leader this fall because of this? Raised that question. Aren't you the damnedest damn senators in this country and the world (unintelligible). Don't you agree?

PETERSEN: I agree. I gather, I saw the news this morning...that they're still opposing it. The Javits [Senator Jacob Javits] thing.

PRESIDENT: Javits? (Unintelligible.) Do the best we can. Are you satisfied? What does the Haldeman thing do to him in terms of, first what does it do for your case, what does it do to him, in terms of making it easier to (unintelligible) or harder, or so so so. Be quite candid with me on that point. We will forget that we talked about it.

PETERSEN: Well, I don't think that we really come to any definitive terms, and we won't, because what we're fashioning is a conspiracy case, in which all the pieces will fit together. But in such a conspiracy case, the fact—assuming it were true, and we still have a question on the credibility of Magruder—that Haldeman was given a budget, which he had the power to veto, which included operation Gemstone, which he knew to be an electronic-intercept operation...

PRESIDENT: Right.

PETERSEN: ...would be a tremendously important fact.

PRESIDENT: Right.

PETERSEN: When you couple that with...

PRESIDENT: At the present time, that’s Magruder versus Strachan?

PETERSEN: That’s Magruder versus Strachan. And if you add to that the receipt of the product...

PRESIDENT: Right.

PETERSEN: ...of the illegal intercepts in identifiable form, coupled with the conspiracy, and all the relationships with Mitchell, and his position of authority, I have no doubt whatsoever that we could include him in a conspiracy. The question is one of credibility, which we’re trying to resolve. But even if that were to fail, on a question of proof, well, then you come into the secondary aspect of it, that is...never mind that he's not found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, rather by a preponderance of the evidence...that's right.

PRESIDENT: I understand, I understand. Now. Let me ask you this: does it help you with your Dean problem if Haldeman...I was curious, because I got the impression, when Dean came in...I discussed it with him, in lieu of the fact that he probably should resign, he said "I'll resign if Haldeman and Ehrlichman do." I got the impression that that's from you.

PETERSEN: Well...no sir, I don't think that's from us. I think what...

PRESIDENT: He may have misled me.

PETERSEN: Well, I...misled in a sense. But, what you're seeing is a terribly desperate man.

PRESIDENT: Yeah.

PETERSEN: Who's now beginning to try to rationalize his own conduct.

PRESIDENT: I get it.

PETERSEN: Uuuuh...and he in effect was saying...

PRESIDENT: Well, let me ask you this...

PETERSEN: That's why there's so much interest in his agency.

PRESIDENT: Let's get to Ehrlichman now. Ehrlichman, you have a really hard conspiracy (unintelligible).

PETERSEN: Pardon?

PRESIDENT: Ehrlichman, with a conspiracy [charge] is much tougher.

PETERSEN: Yes sir, unless...unless the evidence develops that he was involved in a post-operation obstruction of justice. Now, they...

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) picked up? What do you have on that?

PETERSEN: Well, very little at this point. The allegation is...that Bittman to O'Brien [Paul O'Brien, counsel for the re-election committee] to Haldeman, in terms of a demand: take care of us or we'll talk. And Ehrlichman says...

PRESIDENT: When is that?

PETERSEN: We don't have it pinned down. All we have is in terms of allegations. Sometime after the trial.

PRESIDENT: What do you mean? When was the trial?

PETERSEN: January. End of...about the time Hunt was pleading guilty. That's the implication. Now, we haven't corroborated that one way or another.

PRESIDENT: And then Bittman said, Bittman said we'll talk.

PETERSEN: No, Bittman says, that allegation comes from McCord, who says that he got it from Dorothy Hunt. Bittman says...we haven't had Bittman in to testify, and Bittman says "That's entirely untrue." I mention it not because I think it's an item of admissible evidence at this point, just know that it's one of the resurgent dimensions of this problem.

PRESIDENT: Did Bittman say...so you had Bittman say that he told O'Brien that we needed money...or Hunt would...would (unintelligible).

PETERSEN: Well, Bittman's too good a lawyer to make a fashion like that. That's one thing.

PRESIDENT: Bittman. Did Bittman talk to Dean?

PETERSEN: Not that I know of. Bittman, I think, talked to Colson.

PRESIDENT: Colson? I don't know (unintelligible). I didn't know about that. But I know Bittman. The name rings a bell. In terms of, that he talked to somebody with regard to...the possibility of...getting his attorney's fees, or something like that. That was after...that was after that. I heard of that.

PETERSEN: (Unintelligible.)  That's an area again where LaRue comes in. He was delivering money to Hogan & Hartson...

PRESIDENT: Who's Hogan & Hartson?

PETERSEN: Hogan & Hartson is a law firm...in which Bill Bittman is a partner.

PRESIDENT: Oh. Did LaRue take the money to them?

PETERSEN: Or send it up, by messenger.

PRESIDENT: And LaRue...you got all that from LaRue's testimony.

PETERSEN: Well, I wasn't down at his Grand Jury testimony, he was in yesterday...but he generally admits to the obstruction of justice. Certainly with respect to Magruder's testimony, and how far he's come along to pay his money...he agrees he delivered it, and he's willing to plead I take it, to the obstruction charge.

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible.) So that could involve Haldeman, because O'Brien is supposed to have done it? It could throw Haldeman, is that it?

PETERSEN: Uuuhhh...

PRESIDENT: I think, I think-

PETERSEN: Yes, that's...

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible.)

PETERSEN: But, you know, I hesitate to even tell you-

PRESIDENT: You don't want to-

PETERSEN: -because we haven't pinned that down. Not because...

PRESIDENT: Improper relationship.

PETERSEN: No, only because I don't want to imply-

PRESIDENT: That that's a charge.

PETERSEN: That that's a charge. That's correct. It's bad enough without...

PRESIDENT: Sure. Without getting into things that you can't...

PETERSEN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT: Hmmmph. I suppose, looking at Dean, we've rather underestimated him...now Dean was aware that Bittman, this I remember, I do remember that Dean was aware that Bittman was...had talked to somebody, with regard to this or that in the trial, with regard to his attorney's fees. And something. I guess that's what it was. Which is, apparently was related to Mitchell, I don't know how that was. I've, that's all...Dean hasn't told you about that? Or has he?

PETERSEN: No sir, but Dean has not debriefed fully.

PRESIDENT: Yeah, I heard that.

PETERSEN: Dean may have indeed told you more than he told us. Because all he did was tell us enough to stimulate our interest in him as a witness...

PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps you did not get to that. You better get it from him directly. He said...I don't know what the hell he was telling me was...whether he heard from somebody else, or whether he...you see, there's the possibility he might be bringing Colson in on this too. Can't tell.

PETERSEN: Indeed.

PRESIDENT: I don't think he cared about Colson. Huh. So you've come down to Bittman-Haldeman. So, the conspiracy thing, with regard to Ehrlichman, is much tougher.

PETERSEN: Oh, that's pretty thin.

PRESIDENT: With regards to, with regards to Haldeman, quite likely.

PETERSEN: Well, let me put it...the Ehrlichman thing, I would go only at this stage, as an item of information for you.

PRESIDENT: I understand.

PETERSEN: And really-

PRESIDENT: You've got to find out who's telling the truth.

PETERSEN: That's right. But not as-

PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) whether Dean is saying, that's where I've got to be really damn sure. Who's lying there. But anyway.

PETERSEN: And the second, and even with Ehrlichman, we haven't passed judgement on these things. We wanted to get them to you before you read them in the newspaper, obviously.

PRESIDENT: Sure.

PETERSEN: But uh...we haven't passed judgement on these things.

PRESIDENT: There...the other thing about Ehrlichman, that we've got to...Dean's allegation that...he talked to Ehrlichman about means for (unintelligible). Which he did. That I know Ehrlichman was told. Ehrlichman said, "I can't help you." Period. That I know. Because Ehrlichman was advocating another course of action...so I can't believe Ehrlichman on this, because he was advocating action that should have been taken, actually. It was Dean, I think-

PETERSEN: Well, as you can see, we're on a very tortuous path, to get into that committee and find out who had the authority to expend or authorize the expenditure of funds post-election. Uuuuhhhh...

PRESIDENT: Acting on it.

PETERSEN: Yes.

PRESIDENT: Is that where this comes?

PETERSEN: Or: in the alternative, whether or not the funds were taken out before the election.

PRESIDENT: Most of this occurred after the election.

PETERSEN: Well...

PRESIDENT: Apparently. I don't know. Coming back to the Haldeman thing then...let me say this. You can answer my question, I guess: it makes no difference to you, whether, it makes no difference to the prosecution...and no difference to the administration...that Deanm whether...

PETERSEN: No sir.

PRESIDENT: ...whether Haldeman resigns or not?

PETERSEN: No sir.

PRESIDENT: In other words, you have to go forward with the case, your way.

PETERSEN: That's right. Our only concern there is you, that's all.

PRESIDENT: That's right. You want to make sure you don't move on it before I do.

PETERSEN: Well, we want you to have as much information as we have, whatever purpose you see fit to use it.

PRESIDENT: That's right.

PETERSEN: That's all.

PRESIDENT: You know, you're gonna be in this case a long time. Mitchell, Mitchell, how the hell..is Mitchell...is he coming down?

PETERSEN: He's coming down. He's talking. Lord, I know all the lawyers. He's talking to another lawyer who's a very good friend of mine, today, about representing him. He's also, along with Fred Vincent, representing LaRue. And uh...Bill Hundley. So, John Mitchell...who frankly I introduced to Bill Hundley...he's coming down to see Bill today. Bill may not be able to represent him, if he's also representing LaRue. Because there might be a conflict there. But he's certainly going to talk to him. Uh...

PRESIDENT: Well. I'm not going to talk to...I don't know anything. I see nothing coming today. Magruder's not going tomorrow, apparently either.

PETERSEN: Well, you mean...

PRESIDENT: He's going tomorrow?

PETERSEN: Oh, no no no.

PRESIDENT: In the twelve hour-

PETERSEN: (Unintelligible) certain to deny that allegation. And he will not, till we find out the results of that conflict between him and Strachan.

PRESIDENT: Do you think I can go to Easter Sunday and not be bothered by this case? You think I can get off three days?

PETERSEN: It's fine if you ask me.

PRESIDENT: Let's go.

PETERSEN: (laughs)

PRESIDENT: Tell me this: would you mind being the director of the Bureau [the FBI]? Let me say, I'm not holding it out (unintelligible) but for the next director, there are about two or three names and you name is in it. The point that I made is that it's basically the hand of this miserable case that's deeply involved. So...

PETERSEN: Mr. President...

PRESIDENT: Let me say this, let me say this: just handle the case right. And you're asked to be sure about this: I have known this crap, we know who, and i must say, with the best of intentions, God knows they were the best, I think John Dean, I'm afraid was an actor. He was responsible for this evasion. And frankly, he was working with Mitchell. That's what you're going to find. That's what he was doing. And, and the rest over here got their got their tangential stuff. But I can assure you, that in the period of the attorneys' fees and so forth, that really was what broke the case, when you really come down to it. And I gotta give Dean credit, he came in and said, "Jesus Christ, there is this money. That's an indication of the problem." And he said, "We've got to do something about it." Now, that's an embarrass...on that point, Dean never indicated he had broke the line, but apparently, if there was some (unintelligible). But he said, he said that...(unintelligible) "Well, Goddamnit, John, you've got to get this, to the bottom of it." And he goes to Camp David, couldn't write a report, and I turned it over to Haldeman. And I must say, Haldeman did get to the bottom of it. Reached a (unintelligible) He called on Saturday noon to tell me, you had Magruder Saturday afternoon, and then that was it. And then we've got Sunday. It's been a long week.

PETERSEN: Yes indeed.

PRESIDENT: Why don't we take the Easter off?

PETERSEN: (Unintelligible.)

PRESIDENT: The main thing is, let me say, your record, must be one of impeccable...going after this. The Justice Department has handled this case right.

PETERSEN: Yes sir. Absolutely.

PRESIDENT: And even in this period before, when you were relying on Dean, what he told you, Mitchell...you questioned them all. You had no obstruction from the White House in your investigation.

PETERSEN: No sir.

PRESIDENT: Co-operation, I want to be clear, because if there wasn't you see...so now, do the U.S. Attorneys feel they have co-operation from the White House in this period? Or do they-

PETERSEN: (Unintelligible.)

PRESIDENT: On the other hand, the point about Dean, maybe, questioning witnesses, that sort of thing...do they think, as you look back, that there may have been subordination and so forth? Okay. Have a good time.

PETERSEN: Mr. President, let me answer your question [about becoming the next FBI Director].

PRESIDENT: Yeah. Yes sir. The Bureau, yeah.

PETERSEN: I would not ask for that job. I don't take, draw any conclusions from your mentioning it. I know, whether or not it's been considered...I guess by present day standards I come about as something of a...ridiculous man. Only by present day standards, perhaps.

PRESIDENT: I understand, I understand.

PETERSEN: And I'm sure, every day, that what I do will be right, and what people like you do, as it affects me, will be right, and if that sounds fatalistic, if it turns out that you need a director, that's fine, but if it doesn't, you don't think I'd make a good director, that's fine...

PRESIDENT: You'll do something else.

PETERSEN: (laughs)

PRESIDENT: Let's have Easter off, shall we?

PETERSEN: Yes sir. Thank you so much.