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Let's Talk About the American Deep State Raw Draft TXT Dump

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  1. (Lars) Hello, ladies and gentlemen.
  2. My name is Lars Schall.
  3.  
  4. I am an independent
  5. financial journalist from Germany,
  6.  
  7. and I am now connected,
  8. in Berkeley, California,
  9.  
  10. with Peter Dale Scott,
  11.  
  12. who is a former Canadian diplomat
  13. and a former Professor for English,
  14.  
  15. and moreover, he is
  16. a political research and poet.
  17.  
  18. Hi, Peter.
  19.  
  20. (Peter) Hello, Lars.
  21. Good to talk to you again.
  22.  
  23. (Lars) Thank you very much
  24. for being available.
  25.  
  26. Peter, we decided to talk this time
  27. about the Deep State.
  28.  
  29. And the first question
  30. I would like to ask you is,
  31.  
  32. why would you say it's still relevant
  33. to talk about 9/11?
  34.  
  35. Well, 9/11 was the occasion
  36. for major changes,
  37.  
  38. both in American foreign policy...
  39.  
  40. -- it's the reason why we went
  41. almost immediately into Afghanistan,
  42.  
  43. and it's also why we began planning,
  44. almost immediately, to invade Iraq,
  45.  
  46. which was based on the false assumption
  47. that Saddam Hussein
  48.  
  49. had some connection with al-Qaeda.
  50.  
  51. There had been evidence provided.
  52.  
  53. It was false evidence, but
  54. the administration chose to believe it.
  55.  
  56. From an American point of view,
  57. the changes in foreign policy
  58.  
  59. are perhaps not as serious
  60. as the implementation on that day
  61.  
  62. of what we call "Continuity of Government"
  63. procedures,
  64.  
  65. which has radically altered the status of
  66. the American Constitution in this country.
  67.  
  68. They had been planning,
  69. for 20 years, what to do
  70.  
  71. in the case of a major emergency
  72. like 9/11;
  73.  
  74. and the plans were worked on
  75. for two decades
  76.  
  77. by Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney,
  78.  
  79. who were also the two men
  80. who implemented them on 9/11.
  81.  
  82. And we don't know, in detail, the plans;
  83.  
  84. but I think we can safely sum them up
  85. under three headings:
  86.  
  87. warrantless surveillance:
  88.  
  89. -- that's what Edward Snowden has proved
  90. beyond a shadow of a doubt,
  91.  
  92. that it's massive in the country --
  93.  
  94. and it's because of the COG authorization
  95.  
  96. warrentless detention: we had
  97. more than a thousand Muslims
  98.  
  99. rounded up without a warrant
  100. and held;
  101.  
  102. we have something called habeas corpus
  103. in our common law:
  104.  
  105. you're not supposed to hold people
  106. for very long without charging them.
  107.  
  108. Like, more than a thousand people
  109. were not charged;
  110.  
  111. some of them were tortured.
  112.  
  113. That is a huge, huge change
  114. in the domestic tradition of America.
  115.  
  116. And then, finally, the involvement
  117. of the military
  118.  
  119. in what we call, now, Homeland Security:
  120. let the military play a police role.
  121.  
  122. And that, too, is something new:
  123.  
  124. you would occasionally
  125. have the Army called in
  126.  
  127. to deal with a crisis, like the rioting
  128. in the inner-cities in the 1960s,
  129.  
  130. but to have a permanent Army Command
  131. for North American,
  132.  
  133. -- that's called NORTHCOM --
  134. it's very new;
  135.  
  136. and that's a radical change
  137. in the road (xx).
  138.  
  139. And above all...
  140.  
  141. -- this is what I talk about
  142. in Deep State --
  143.  
  144. ...we now have institutions that are able
  145. to operate in America
  146.  
  147. without being controlled
  148. by the American Constitution.
  149.  
  150. I don't see how you could have
  151. a more radical change than that.
  152.  
  153. (Lars) What is the Deep State,
  154. what are Deep Events,
  155.  
  156. and what has 9/11 to do with both?
  157.  
  158. (Peter) Well, let me give somebody else's
  159. definition of the Deep State:
  160.  
  161. the Washington Post reporter
  162. called Dana Priest wrote a book,
  163.  
  164. Top Secret America.
  165. And in it, she said,
  166.  
  167. "We now have two governments:
  168.  
  169. the one that citizens are familiar with,
  170. operated more or less in the open;
  171.  
  172. the other a parallel,
  173. Top Secret government
  174.  
  175. whose parts have mushroomed,
  176. in less than a decade,
  177.  
  178. into a gigantic sprawling
  179. universe of its own."
  180.  
  181. Well, in a sense, that second level
  182. -- the Deep State level --
  183.  
  184. has been growing over decades,
  185.  
  186. but it is true that it has mushroomed
  187. in the last decade,
  188.  
  189. when she was writing,
  190.  
  191. and exactly because of 9/11
  192.  
  193. and the changes which
  194. were authorized, implemented...
  195.  
  196. before the last of the four planes
  197. had gone down, they had implemented COG.
  198.  
  199. Then they proclaimed an emergency
  200. three days later,
  201.  
  202. and we've been living in this state
  203. of emergency, which means that,
  204.  
  205. in effect, the Constitution does not rule
  206. the way it used to.
  207.  
  208. Now, you asked about Deep Events.
  209.  
  210. 9/11 I call a Deep Event,
  211. because from the very beginning,
  212.  
  213. it wasn't clear exactly what happened.
  214.  
  215. Meaning, the journalists commented
  216. on the confusion,
  217.  
  218. and the inaccuracy of reports
  219. that became so bad
  220.  
  221. that Congress had to press....
  222. it was a fight to get an investigation.
  223.  
  224. This is the largest criminal act
  225. that was ever committed in America,
  226.  
  227. and the White House tried to ignore it.
  228.  
  229. There was a crime scene:
  230. it was dismantled almost immediately.
  231.  
  232. Some people would say that was illegal.
  233.  
  234. They say they were looking for corpses,
  235.  
  236. so that's why they
  237. carried away all the steel.
  238.  
  239. But now scientists are
  240. very interested to know
  241.  
  242. what residues there were in that steel,
  243.  
  244. to see if the buildings were, perhaps,
  245. blown up or not.
  246.  
  247. Most of the steel was shipped
  248. out of the country very quickly,
  249.  
  250. and so it's a Deep Event.
  251.  
  252. And we had, then, a Commission.
  253.  
  254. The two great events that are Deep Events
  255.  
  256. are, first, the Kennedy assassination
  257. in '63, then 9/11.
  258.  
  259. There are more.
  260. Some of them can be very small.
  261.  
  262. You know, I think I've had
  263. some Deep Events in my personal life.
  264.  
  265. I write about one of them in
  266. American War Machine.
  267.  
  268. But the ones which had
  269. Constitutional consequences:
  270.  
  271. the Kennedy assassination.
  272.  
  273. the consequences were pretty invisible
  274. in that one, but they were real.
  275.  
  276. It changed the role of the CIA
  277.  
  278. and its relationship to the FBI
  279. and to local police.
  280.  
  281. Much more important
  282. were the changes after 9/11.
  283.  
  284. Just take the one that Edward Snowden
  285. has so completely documented:
  286.  
  287. warrantless surveillance.
  288.  
  289. That, I think, of the big three,
  290. is perhaps the least important,
  291.  
  292. but it's the only one that we're really
  293. talking about in this country.
  294.  
  295. And in both cases, you had
  296. commissions to investigate,
  297.  
  298. and they came out with findings which
  299. were demonstrably not true.
  300.  
  301. Now, that's the real test
  302. of a big Deep Event:
  303.  
  304. when they investigate it,
  305. and they give you a story
  306.  
  307. which, almost immediately,
  308. people can start picking holes in,
  309.  
  310. and see it's not true.
  311.  
  312. So, my definition of a Deep Event
  313. is one which...
  314.  
  315. an event which we are not
  316. given the truth about,
  317.  
  318. and the biggest ones we are given a story
  319. which may be true in certain respects,
  320.  
  321. but in key respects is not true.
  322.  
  323. One thing you're looking at in your work
  324. are patterns that were common
  325.  
  326. both in 9/11 and the JFK assassination.
  327.  
  328. First of all, when did you discover
  329. this phenomenon,
  330.  
  331. and what did you feel about it?
  332.  
  333. Pretty soon after 9/11,
  334. I was struck by the fact
  335.  
  336. that they knew, almost immediately,
  337. who had done it.
  338.  
  339. Richard Clarke's book...
  340.  
  341. he was in a position of authority,
  342. and he says that the FBI
  343.  
  344. had a list of the hijackers of the planes
  345. before ten o'clock that day.
  346.  
  347. And that, I think, also, is before
  348. the last of the planes had gone donw.
  349.  
  350. So for anyone who knows anything
  351. about the Kennedy assassination,
  352.  
  353. one of the things
  354. that has never been explained
  355.  
  356. was how they were broadcasting,
  357. on the police tape,
  358.  
  359. a description of the perpetrator:
  360.  
  361. the man who had shot Kennedy, allegedly,
  362. from a window, and they gave...
  363.  
  364. they gave a pretty accurate description.
  365. I mean, precise description:
  366.  
  367. 5'10", 165 pounds, and they could never
  368. explain where that description came from.
  369.  
  370. they allegedly... they attributed it
  371. to a man named Howard Brennan down below,
  372.  
  373. but he would have only seen the top half
  374. of the man in the window,
  375.  
  376. so how would he know 5'10", 165 pounds?
  377.  
  378. The interesting thing is, that was
  379. the description of Lee Harvey Oswald
  380.  
  381. in his FBI file and in his CIA file,
  382.  
  383. even though it was not true.
  384.  
  385. They were broadcasting a description
  386. of the perpetrator within 15 minutes,
  387.  
  388. that had been taken...
  389.  
  390. -- and, when I say, broadcast
  391. on the police tape --
  392.  
  393. ...that had been taken from
  394. the FBI file and the CIA file.
  395.  
  396. And the FBI has never been able,
  397. really, to explain...
  398.  
  399. nobody has been able
  400. to explain how that was done,
  401.  
  402. from the government side.
  403.  
  404. And the same has proved
  405. to be true with 9/11.
  406.  
  407. In fact, you know,
  408. they broadcast a description...
  409.  
  410. -- but again, I'm saying, internally --
  411.  
  412. ...they circulated a list
  413. of the hijackers.
  414.  
  415. And there were two names on that list
  416. that later got hastily dropped,
  417.  
  418. because one of them was dead,
  419.  
  420. and the other one, I think,
  421. was not in the country,
  422.  
  423. and certainly not on an airplane.
  424.  
  425. It was a list, I think,
  426. they took out of files.
  427.  
  428. And that's just the first of about...
  429.  
  430. that's the first similarity
  431. between those two deep events.
  432.  
  433. In my book, The War Conspiracy,
  434. I have more than a dozen,
  435.  
  436. and I've been adding to that list myself:
  437. the modus operandi.
  438.  
  439. The other thing is that these people,
  440. they laid a paper trail.
  441.  
  442. Oswald kept a diary,
  443. and he did all kinds of things
  444.  
  445. which were later used
  446. to incriminate him...
  447.  
  448. -- although he was, of course, dead --
  449.  
  450. ...and at Logan Airport, the...
  451. Mohammed Atta and his friends,
  452.  
  453. they left a car
  454. that was filled with evidence.
  455.  
  456. That was very convenient for the FBI
  457. that the perpetrators...
  458.  
  459. -- or what I call
  460. the "designated culprits,"
  461.  
  462. because it was clearly decided in advance
  463. who was going to be blamed for this --
  464.  
  465. and they had these people actually help
  466. document the case against themselves.
  467.  
  468. I could go on and on.
  469. I don't know if that's enough for you?
  470.  
  471. (Lars) Well, I would like to ask you
  472. about specific communication channels
  473.  
  474. that were involved, both in JFK
  475. and in 9/11.
  476.  
  477. Why is it, perhaps,
  478. the most important similarity?
  479.  
  480. (Peter) Well, yes: I believe that
  481. the national communications network...
  482.  
  483. -- it has had different names
  484. over the years --
  485.  
  486. but it's the special network
  487. that was set up
  488.  
  489. in connection with Continuity
  490. of Government planning,
  491.  
  492. and it goes back to the 1950s,
  493. and they changes its name all the time.
  494.  
  495. This is a similarity that I came to later.
  496.  
  497. For many years, I've know that
  498. the White House communications agency
  499.  
  500. was a factor in the Kennedy assassination,
  501.  
  502. because we were given,
  503.  
  504. in conjunction with the Warren Commission
  505. investigation of JFK,
  506.  
  507. they released the police transcripts,
  508.  
  509. and they released certain
  510. Secret Service messages.
  511.  
  512. But it was known... and there were
  513. two channels of the police, both released.
  514.  
  515. But there was also a third channel
  516. that was being used in Dealey Plaza.
  517.  
  518. The Secret Service was using a channel
  519.  
  520. of what's called the White House
  521. Communications Agency,
  522.  
  523. and for years, I've known,
  524. we should get that,
  525.  
  526. we were not able to get that in 1993,
  527. when they set up a review board.
  528.  
  529. I went to the review board,
  530. and I said they should get those records.
  531.  
  532. They have not been released.
  533. The White House... and yet,
  534.  
  535. the White House
  536. Communications Agency
  537.  
  538. boasts on its website...
  539.  
  540. -- you can, I imagine,
  541. still read it there --
  542.  
  543. ...that they helped solve
  544. the Kennedy assassination.
  545.  
  546. Well, that's very interesting
  547.  
  548. because their records never reached
  549. the Warren Commission,
  550.  
  551. which was supposed to be solving it.
  552.  
  553. And then, when the records
  554. began to come out about 9/11
  555.  
  556. -- this took a couple of years --
  557.  
  558. we got the 9/11 Commission Report,
  559.  
  560. and it turns out that there are
  561. certain communications,
  562.  
  563. certain phone calls that were made,
  564. but there's no record of them.
  565.  
  566. And in my book, The Road to 9/11, I said
  567. the evidence points to the suggestion
  568.  
  569. that they were using the...
  570. they had already implemented COG.
  571.  
  572. Well, that means...
  573. I imagine, if that is the case,
  574.  
  575. they implemented the COG's
  576. special communications network,
  577.  
  578. with, which change of names,
  579. is the inheritor of the net... (xx)
  580.  
  581. the White House Communications Agency
  582.  
  583. was and still is part
  584. of that emergency network.
  585.  
  586. So I could say, throw in,
  587. that another deep event was Iran-Contra.
  588.  
  589. And it turned out that Oliver North,
  590. in 1985-86, was sending arms to Iran,
  591.  
  592. which was illegal, and a lot of people
  593. in the government knew nothing about.
  594.  
  595. They didn't know about it because
  596. Oliver North was in charge
  597.  
  598. of that same emergency network,
  599.  
  600. and he used that emergency network
  601.  
  602. to make communications with the
  603. Embassy in Portugal, for example,
  604.  
  605. in order to facilitate
  606. getting those arms to Iran.
  607.  
  608. So that is, for me, a common denom--...
  609.  
  610. and in Watergate:
  611. that's another Deep Event.
  612.  
  613. We still don't know why there was
  614. a wiretap put on the phone
  615.  
  616. in the Democratic National Committee,
  617.  
  618. but we do know that James McCord,
  619.  
  620. who was in charge of the team
  621. that installed it,
  622.  
  623. was a member of a special
  624. Air Force Reserve network
  625.  
  626. that was concerned with
  627. Continuity of Government.
  628.  
  629. So this is... and he was charged with
  630. the same sort of thing:
  631.  
  632. who to round up,
  633. the warrantless detention:
  634.  
  635. they had that back in
  636. the days of Watergate.
  637.  
  638. So this, to me, is one of
  639. the most striking common denominators
  640.  
  641. to the big four Deep Events:
  642.  
  643. JFK, Watergate, Iran-Contra,
  644. and finally 9/11.
  645.  
  646. And if we ever have
  647. another Deep Event of this kind,
  648.  
  649. I would predict, now,
  650. on the basis of past performance,
  651.  
  652. that the emergency network will...
  653.  
  654. -- the one which ordinary people in
  655. the government don't have access to --
  656.  
  657. that will be a factor again.
  658.  
  659. (Lars) Is the Secret Service,
  660. in both events, of special interest?
  661.  
  662. (Peter) Well they're of interest
  663. precisely because
  664.  
  665. of what we've just been talking about.
  666.  
  667. Because they use the White House
  668. Communications Agency
  669.  
  670. for their communications.
  671.  
  672. And a lot... whole books
  673. have been written
  674.  
  675. about the Secret Service
  676. and the JFK assassination,
  677.  
  678. some [very exaggerated?]
  679. and some people involved within the plot
  680.  
  681. I think there was (xx) malperformance
  682. on that day.
  683.  
  684. They didn't do things
  685. they should have done;
  686.  
  687. they didn't investigate people
  688. they should have.
  689.  
  690. That doesn't necessarily mean
  691. that they are culprits,
  692.  
  693. and so I'm not subscribing
  694. to those theories.
  695.  
  696. It's less obvious in the case of 9/11,
  697. the Secret Service;
  698.  
  699. but what is interesting:
  700. they do play a role:
  701.  
  702. because, at a certain point,
  703.  
  704. there's a special airplane for
  705. Continuity of Government called the E-4B.
  706.  
  707. They call it the Doomsday Plane.
  708.  
  709. And they call the COG planning
  710. the Doomsday Program.
  711.  
  712. and this plane flew over the White House.
  713.  
  714. No plane is ever supposed
  715. to fly over the White House,
  716.  
  717. and yet on precisely this day,
  718. where everything went wrong...
  719.  
  720. The E-4B: it's supposed to be
  721. the special plane
  722.  
  723. for the National Command Authority,
  724.  
  725. which is the President
  726. and the Secretary of Defense,
  727.  
  728. but of course, neither of them
  729. were in the plane.
  730.  
  731. One was... the President was in Florida,
  732.  
  733. and the Secretary of Defense
  734. was in the Pentagon,
  735.  
  736. according to his own account,
  737. helping put people on stretchers,
  738.  
  739. which seems an odd thing
  740. for him to be doing
  741.  
  742. when the nation is under attack.
  743.  
  744. But the plane was there,
  745. and the Secret Service reponded
  746.  
  747. by rushing everyone out of the building.
  748.  
  749. There's a very vivid description
  750.  
  751. of how they almost lifted
  752. Vice President Cheney out of his chair
  753.  
  754. to rush him out of the building.
  755.  
  756. And of course, (xx) saying
  757. the nation was under attack,
  758.  
  759. it would have been logical, very sensible,
  760.  
  761. for him to get, as quickly as he could,
  762. to what we call the PEOC:
  763.  
  764. the emergency bunker that's under
  765. the White House
  766.  
  767. for when then nation is under attack.
  768.  
  769. But the interesting thing is,
  770. he didn't go straight to the PEOC.
  771.  
  772. There were many, many minutes
  773. when he waited in the tunnel,
  774.  
  775. using a telephone that was
  776. there in the tunnel.
  777.  
  778. What would that telephone possibly be?
  779.  
  780. I would bet money that
  781. that was a telephone for...
  782.  
  783. that was connected
  784. to the emergency network.
  785.  
  786. And I think it was on that phone
  787. that a lot of the key decisions were made,
  788.  
  789. not even in the presence
  790. of the top advisors who were in the PEOC.
  791.  
  792. So the Secret Service are involved
  793.  
  794. in the sense that it was their mission
  795. to get him out,
  796.  
  797. and they stayed with him while he did...
  798.  
  799. with Cheney, while he paused
  800. in this tunnel...
  801.  
  802. -- it was maybe as long as 20 minutes,
  803. something like that --
  804.  
  805. to make a series of phone calls
  806.  
  807. with both the President and
  808. the Secretary of Defense.
  809.  
  810. (Lars) Related to
  811. Continuity of Government:
  812.  
  813. why is it important
  814. to know more about this,
  815.  
  816. and is it still active to this very day?
  817.  
  818. (Peter) Well, let me begin
  819. with the second half.
  820.  
  821. Yes, as far as we know, it is still...
  822. it's very hard to talk about it,
  823.  
  824. because no one has ever released a word
  825. of what these special procedures are.
  826.  
  827. We only know about it from
  828. what was released back in the 1980s.
  829.  
  830. But seeing that what was
  831. talked about in the 1980s
  832.  
  833. is what has been implemented since:
  834.  
  835. warrantless surveillance:
  836. we certainly have that;
  837.  
  838. warrantless detention:
  839. we've had that,
  840.  
  841. and martial law: we have now...
  842.  
  843. the military are permanently
  844. involved in law enforcement.
  845.  
  846. There is an Army Brigade
  847. that is on full-time status in America
  848.  
  849. to deal with any possible disturbances.
  850.  
  851. And... sorry, what was the question again?
  852.  
  853. (Lars) Why is it important
  854. to know more about it?
  855.  
  856. (Peter) Yes...
  857.  
  858. (Lars) For example, does it mean that
  859. the Constitution of the United States
  860.  
  861. that the Americans are so proud about,
  862. is suspended?
  863.  
  864. (Peter) It's not altogether suspended,
  865.  
  866. but it has been supplanted
  867. to a large extent.
  868.  
  869. The three things I just described:
  870.  
  871. every one of them is...
  872. particularly the first two.
  873.  
  874. I mean, we have very clear...
  875.  
  876. habeas corpus is mentioned
  877. in the Constitution.
  878.  
  879. It isn't exactly guaranteed
  880. by the Constitution;
  881.  
  882. it's just taken for granted
  883. in the Constitution,
  884.  
  885. because it goes back to Magna Carta
  886. in the 13th Century.
  887.  
  888. It is one of the oldest
  889. foundational rights
  890.  
  891. of common law freedoms,
  892. and it has been seriously abrogated.
  893.  
  894. Not totally suspended, but if they want
  895. to detain somebody, they will.
  896.  
  897. And they do.
  898.  
  899. And they... not just foreigners,
  900. but US Citizens.
  901.  
  902. It's... so, yes: it has seriously eroded
  903. the status of the Constitution,
  904.  
  905. and more and more people
  906. are beginning to talk about it.
  907.  
  908. We're finally getting a serious debate
  909. about the warrantless surveillance,
  910.  
  911. which is unconstitutional,
  912.  
  913. and the President has said
  914. he's gonna do something about it,
  915.  
  916. but we haven't seen any results so far,
  917.  
  918. and meanwhile they're not only trying
  919. to prosecute Snowden...
  920.  
  921. -- who did a public service, I would say,
  922. by revealing this --
  923.  
  924. ...but they're also...
  925.  
  926. they've indicted the man
  927. who made the encryption program
  928.  
  929. which made it possible for him
  930. to share documents with Greenwald.
  931.  
  932. And they've persecuted that man
  933.  
  934. to the point that he's had
  935. to dissolve his company.
  936.  
  937. So, they're still
  938. pretty ruthlessly enforcing
  939.  
  940. this system of secrecy,
  941. secret government,
  942.  
  943. that has supplanted
  944. and become a second layer
  945.  
  946. overshadowing open government.
  947.  
  948. (Lars) Regarding 9/11, you say
  949. you know only one thing for sure:
  950.  
  951. there has been a massive cover-up.
  952.  
  953. What has been covered up, and why?
  954.  
  955. (Peter) We still don't really have
  956. an explanation why...
  957.  
  958. the planes failed to intercept.
  959.  
  960. They should have intercepted.
  961.  
  962. Certainly by the time of the third
  963. and the fourth plane,
  964.  
  965. they should have been intercepted.
  966.  
  967. And there's an explanation
  968. in the 9/11 Commission Report.
  969.  
  970. but there are many things
  971. which are still really inexplicable.
  972.  
  973. You have the behavior
  974. of the Vice President,
  975.  
  976. who was a key figure in this.
  977.  
  978. You know, he said that there was...
  979.  
  980. all right: there was a phone call made
  981. that implemented COG.
  982.  
  983. That is the very center
  984. of what happened here.
  985.  
  986. There's no trace of that phone call,
  987. not because no trace was made...
  988.  
  989. -- you know, he didn't do it
  990. from a payphone or something --
  991.  
  992. it was certainly done within channels;
  993.  
  994. but I'm sure it was done on a COG line,
  995. and we have to hear what was done.
  996.  
  997. This, by the way,
  998. has real legal consequences,
  999.  
  1000. because one of the things to be explained
  1001. is why the Vice President made decisions
  1002.  
  1003. that he was not legally
  1004. empowered to make.
  1005.  
  1006. We have a National Command Authority
  1007. that governs the military,
  1008.  
  1009. and the is the President and
  1010. the Secretary of Defense.
  1011.  
  1012. But what seems... as far as we can tell...
  1013.  
  1014. -- and hearing the records are missing:
  1015.  
  1016. so that, I would say
  1017. they're being covered up --
  1018.  
  1019. is that the actual decisions were made
  1020. by the Vice President,
  1021.  
  1022. who was not part of
  1023. the National Command Authority.
  1024.  
  1025. All of that should be investigated,
  1026. because it is quite possible
  1027.  
  1028. that crimes were committed
  1029. in the response to 9/11,
  1030.  
  1031. and not, now, talking about 9/11 itself:
  1032. which I do not discuss in my book,
  1033.  
  1034. because there are too many books
  1035. being written about that.
  1036.  
  1037. But in the response to 9/11,
  1038. certain things were done
  1039.  
  1040. which were not done in the way
  1041. which is legally prescribed.
  1042.  
  1043. And that, how they were done,
  1044. is being covered up,
  1045.  
  1046. because we don't have the records.
  1047.  
  1048. (Lars) Could 9/11 have been prevented?
  1049.  
  1050. I mean, for example, this is a question
  1051. that is very crucial
  1052.  
  1053. for everything that has to do
  1054. with the NSA.
  1055.  
  1056. that the NSA knew nothing about the plans
  1057. to attack the US?
  1058.  
  1059. (Peter) Well, of course,
  1060. we know so little about the NSA
  1061.  
  1062. that it's difficult for me to say.
  1063.  
  1064. There are allegations, of course:
  1065.  
  1066. this Lieutenant Shaffer came forward
  1067. and said that the DIA
  1068.  
  1069. -- which is the Defense
  1070. Intelligence Agency --
  1071.  
  1072. that they, in fact, had very complete
  1073. files on Mohammed Atta and others.
  1074.  
  1075. The Pentagon has denied this,
  1076. and then a Congressman, Curt Weldon,
  1077.  
  1078. brought it up in Congress, and really
  1079. wanted to get to the bottom of it.
  1080.  
  1081. And the FBI treated him abysmally.
  1082.  
  1083. The FBI leaked the idea
  1084. that he was under investigation
  1085.  
  1086. for some kind of scam
  1087. that involved his daughter;
  1088.  
  1089. and the newspapers were full of this.
  1090.  
  1091. And he was never charged,
  1092. but he was defeated:
  1093.  
  1094. they got him out of Congress.
  1095.  
  1096. And so it was a sign, which...
  1097.  
  1098. I've talked about this in books,
  1099. that it's very dangerous for Congressmen
  1100.  
  1101. to challenge that part of the government
  1102. which is known as the Deep State,
  1103.  
  1104. because inevitably, if they do,
  1105. they get defeated
  1106.  
  1107. when they come up for re-election.
  1108.  
  1109. I wrote that before
  1110. the case of Curt Weldon,
  1111.  
  1112. but that was important.
  1113.  
  1114. Let's talk about the CIA.
  1115.  
  1116. The CIA, definitely, knew about
  1117. two of the hijackers,
  1118.  
  1119. that they were in this...
  1120.  
  1121. alleged hijackers, I always say,
  1122.  
  1123. because I don't really know
  1124. what their role was on 9/11;
  1125.  
  1126. but I think it's probable
  1127. they got on the planes;
  1128.  
  1129. I just cannot believe that they were able
  1130. to steer the planes into buildings.
  1131.  
  1132. That was some other power that done,
  1133. from outside the plane.
  1134.  
  1135. And that technology is totally feasible
  1136. in the 21st Century.
  1137.  
  1138. (Lars) Yeah.
  1139.  
  1140. (Peter) But those two hijackers:
  1141.  
  1142. the CIA should have told the FBI,
  1143. and they didn't.
  1144.  
  1145. And they were able to move around,
  1146. be in touch with other hijackers.
  1147.  
  1148. Now, if procedures had been followed,
  1149. the CIA would have notified the FBI;
  1150.  
  1151. the FBI would have
  1152. put them under surveillance;
  1153.  
  1154. and from those two, they would have known
  1155. about virtually all of the hijackers.
  1156.  
  1157. So the fact that the CIA
  1158. did not communicate
  1159.  
  1160. something that it should
  1161. have communicated
  1162.  
  1163. is one of the causes for 9/11 happening
  1164. the way it did.
  1165.  
  1166. It's only a part of the big picture,
  1167. but it's a tell-tale part,
  1168.  
  1169. and you had similar failures
  1170. of communication
  1171.  
  1172. in the case of John F. Kennedy.
  1173.  
  1174. That's another of the many similarities:
  1175. that the CIA sent a cable to the FB--...
  1176.  
  1177. -- not a cable, it's a message --
  1178.  
  1179. ...they sent a message to the FBI
  1180. about Lee Harvey Oswald,
  1181.  
  1182. and they suppressed the information in it,
  1183.  
  1184. which would have led to Lee Harvey Oswald
  1185. being put under surveillance.
  1186.  
  1187. And if he'd been put under surveillance,
  1188.  
  1189. he couldn't have played the role
  1190. that he did in the...
  1191.  
  1192. becoming the designated culprit
  1193. for the Kennedy assassination.
  1194.  
  1195. So in that sense, I think it's very, very
  1196. significant that the CIA withheld that.
  1197.  
  1198. Whether... because I don't really un--...
  1199.  
  1200. I don't claim to know who
  1201. made 9/11 happen;
  1202.  
  1203. and unlike many people, I am not saying
  1204. that the White House made it happen: no.
  1205.  
  1206. I think somebody in the Deep State
  1207. made it happen;
  1208.  
  1209. but, you see, in my notion
  1210. of the Deep State,
  1211.  
  1212. there are elements of it
  1213. that aren't even in the government.
  1214.  
  1215. So to say that the Deep State
  1216. did something,
  1217.  
  1218. it doesn't really tell us very much,
  1219.  
  1220. but the need to know more...
  1221.  
  1222. and there are records buried, still,
  1223. that could be released
  1224.  
  1225. that would help us
  1226. to understand these things.
  1227.  
  1228. (Lars) Now, let's say:
  1229.  
  1230. if rogue elements of the government
  1231. were involved in 9/11,
  1232.  
  1233. people say that someone would have
  1234. surely talked by now.
  1235.  
  1236. "You can't keep a secret in Washington."
  1237. What's your take on this?
  1238.  
  1239. (Peter) Well, you know, there's actually
  1240. a book about the Kennedy assassination,
  1241.  
  1242. and its title is,
  1243. Someone Would Have Talked
  1244.  
  1245. -- because, of course, they said that
  1246. from the very beginning
  1247.  
  1248. about the Kennedy Assassination.
  1249.  
  1250. And the answer in the book is:
  1251.  
  1252. many people talked;
  1253. they don't get heard
  1254.  
  1255. And with 9/11, too:
  1256. I was just talking about 9/11 last night,
  1257.  
  1258. and there was somebody who was prepared
  1259. to swear on a Bible
  1260.  
  1261. that the last plane, Flight 93,
  1262. was maybe hit, injured, over Shanksville,
  1263.  
  1264. and part of it went down over Shanksville,
  1265.  
  1266. but that it continued, because he...
  1267.  
  1268. I have a friend who talked to
  1269. a very close friend of his,
  1270.  
  1271. who talked to a very close friend of his,
  1272.  
  1273. who says he saw a missile hit Flight 93
  1274. over Camp David, and...
  1275.  
  1276. the President's hideaway
  1277. in the mountains.
  1278.  
  1279. That's not in the papers;
  1280. it's not because the man didn't talk.
  1281.  
  1282. It's because he talked,
  1283.  
  1284. and the FBI came to him and said,
  1285. "You must never talk about that again."
  1286.  
  1287. It actually was in the media.
  1288.  
  1289. There is -- I just looked at it --
  1290. a TV report from the time,
  1291.  
  1292. that the FBI was saying that a plane
  1293. had been shot down over Camp David,
  1294.  
  1295. and they got this information
  1296. from the FAA.
  1297.  
  1298. All of that was on TV,
  1299. but it was all taken off TV,
  1300.  
  1301. and the nation has forgotten about it...
  1302.  
  1303. -- or nearly all of the nation
  1304. has forgotten about it.
  1305.  
  1306. The E-4B over the White House:
  1307. CNN reported that on TV.
  1308.  
  1309. It's a very important part of the story,
  1310. but then they took it down.
  1311.  
  1312. Luckily, somebody had recorded it,
  1313. and they put it back up on YouTube,
  1314.  
  1315. and if you buy my book
  1316. when it comes out in November,
  1317.  
  1318. you will see a URL to watch the video
  1319. of the plane over the White House.
  1320.  
  1321. The Air Force denied it ever happend,
  1322. but it clearly did.
  1323.  
  1324. It's clearly an E-4B,
  1325. and so people come forward with...
  1326.  
  1327. other people have come forward
  1328. with explanations.
  1329.  
  1330. The thing is, information
  1331. is always controlled in any society,
  1332.  
  1333. and if somebody said something
  1334. that doesn't fit in the official story,
  1335.  
  1336. we are a pretty open society in America,
  1337. so they do get to say it:
  1338.  
  1339. it just doesn't get to be heard.
  1340.  
  1341. (Lars) Related to the question:
  1342. if someone has talked about 9/11,
  1343.  
  1344. and that there may have been
  1345. something else than the public was told
  1346.  
  1347. is significant in the case
  1348. of Sibel Edmonds.
  1349.  
  1350. Can you talk about her case a little bit?
  1351.  
  1352. (Peter) Yes, well, Sibel Edmonds was a translator working for the FBI,
  1353.  
  1354. and she saw things in the...
  1355.  
  1356. -- her languages were Turkish
  1357. and, I think,
  1358.  
  1359. Farsi from Iran. [Also: Azerbaijani] --
  1360.  
  1361. ...and she saw things:
  1362. the FBI were investigating people,
  1363.  
  1364. but because the agents
  1365.  
  1366. were not Farsi [sic: primarily Turkish
  1367. and Azerbaijani] speakers,
  1368.  
  1369. they needed her to translate these
  1370. communications they had,
  1371.  
  1372. and what she saw was so alarming
  1373.  
  1374. that she tried to bring it
  1375. to the attention of her superiors.
  1376.  
  1377. It's a long time since
  1378. I've looked at her case,
  1379.  
  1380. but essentially she was told to shut up,
  1381.  
  1382. and eventually she was under
  1383. a court order, I believe,
  1384.  
  1385. and to this day,
  1386. she doesn't want to go to jail,
  1387.  
  1388. so she talks about many other things,
  1389.  
  1390. but she will not fully share
  1391. what it was that she saw,
  1392.  
  1393. except she's given us strong indications.
  1394.  
  1395. There are people very high
  1396. in the government
  1397.  
  1398. who are involved in improper activities
  1399. with other governments,
  1400.  
  1401. and she's named those governments
  1402.  
  1403. -- the Turkish government
  1404. being one of them --
  1405.  
  1406. and she is an example,
  1407. and not the only example,
  1408.  
  1409. of somebody who is... she cannot talk
  1410. in this free society that we have.
  1411.  
  1412. (Lars) The official version of 9/11
  1413.  
  1414. is based, in very large part,
  1415. on torture testimony.
  1416.  
  1417. Does this make the story
  1418. pretty much worthless?
  1419.  
  1420. And furthermore, is this something
  1421. that too many people are ignorant of?
  1422.  
  1423. The part of the 9/11 Commission Report
  1424. that came...
  1425.  
  1426. it's only one small part of the report,
  1427.  
  1428. but it's the part that is talking
  1429. about what al-Qaeda did,
  1430.  
  1431. how they planned it, and so on:
  1432.  
  1433. yes, that is all from tortured testimony,
  1434.  
  1435. from people who were being tortured
  1436. before they gave this testimony.
  1437.  
  1438. Some of those witnesses, now,
  1439. are no longer in custody
  1440.  
  1441. and recanted what they said.
  1442.  
  1443. They put in about one person,
  1444. Abu Zubaydah:
  1445.  
  1446. he confessed to being a part of
  1447. the al-Qaeda thing, and he wasn't at all.
  1448.  
  1449. It was a total misguided direction.
  1450.  
  1451. So I think all of that testimony
  1452. should be thrown out.
  1453.  
  1454. That wouldn't invalidate the whole
  1455. of the 9/11 Commisssion Report,
  1456.  
  1457. but certain chapters of it
  1458. which are talking about what al-Qaeda did,
  1459.  
  1460. yes, are not to be taken very seriously
  1461. because of their reliance...
  1462.  
  1463. by the way: you know, the 9/11 Commission
  1464. wanted to see the transcripts.
  1465.  
  1466. They're not allowed
  1467. to see the transcripts.
  1468.  
  1469. Right away, that becomes very suspicious.
  1470.  
  1471. They're not told
  1472. that the people were tortured.
  1473.  
  1474. And since then, I think,
  1475. both of the co-chairmen
  1476.  
  1477. -- Thomas Kean and [Lee] Hamilton --
  1478.  
  1479. have complained that they
  1480. were actually misled by the CIA.
  1481.  
  1482. So it's in a bit of a shambles,
  1483.  
  1484. the official version that's in
  1485. the 9/11 Commission Report.
  1486.  
  1487. It's been discounted even by
  1488. the co-Chairman of the Commission.
  1489.  
  1490. So, but yes: the fact that they
  1491. used torture to obtain testimony with...
  1492.  
  1493. should not have happened,
  1494. in the first place.
  1495.  
  1496. It should not have been used,
  1497. in the second place.
  1498.  
  1499. They should have been canadid about
  1500. the circumstances,
  1501.  
  1502. and they weren't. in the third place.
  1503.  
  1504. And so in every way, it is a disgrace.
  1505.  
  1506. (Lee) Do you think the hegemony of the US
  1507. in the world declined
  1508.  
  1509. because of the action that followed 9/11?
  1510.  
  1511. (Peter) [inaudible]
  1512.  
  1513. (Lee) Well, for example,
  1514. it seems as if
  1515.  
  1516. the true beneficiaries
  1517. of the War on Terror
  1518.  
  1519. are China and Russia.
  1520.  
  1521. (Peter) Well, let's go with that
  1522. bit by bit.
  1523.  
  1524. One of the major consequences of 9/11
  1525. was the invasion of Iraq.
  1526.  
  1527. And I think there is almost no one who...
  1528. everyone would agree
  1529.  
  1530. that American power in the world,
  1531. and particularly in the Middle East,
  1532.  
  1533. as been eroded because of
  1534. the invasion of Iraq.
  1535.  
  1536. It has resulted in...
  1537. first of all, in the election...
  1538.  
  1539. if you want democracy in Iraq,
  1540. then the majority are going to rule;
  1541.  
  1542. and the majority are Shia, so you now
  1543. have a Shia government in Iraq.
  1544.  
  1545. And it is much more friendly to Iran
  1546. than it is to the United States.
  1547.  
  1548. Many people could have,
  1549. and did, predict this.
  1550.  
  1551. It's not rocket science:
  1552. it's pretty obvious.
  1553.  
  1554. That, also, has led to major tensions
  1555. between the US and Saudi Arabia.
  1556.  
  1557. Saudi Arabia, historically...
  1558.  
  1559. -- whether this should be or not,
  1560. it can be debated --
  1561.  
  1562. but historically, it has been
  1563. the strongest ally
  1564.  
  1565. of the United States in that region.
  1566.  
  1567. And now, there are major differences,
  1568.  
  1569. because Saudi Arabia were delighted
  1570. to see Saddam Hussein go,
  1571.  
  1572. but they didn't want an invasion, because
  1573. they knew it would destabilize Iraq
  1574.  
  1575. and create this status of...
  1576.  
  1577. -- I don't want to say a "failed state":
  1578. I don't like that phrase --
  1579.  
  1580. but a very weakened authority in Iraq,
  1581.  
  1582. which is very dangerous to Saudi Arabia.
  1583.  
  1584. They have every reason,
  1585. legitimately, to be upsed
  1586.  
  1587. at what America did in Iraq,
  1588.  
  1589. and so that weakened
  1590. America's relationship to Saudi Arabia
  1591.  
  1592. You have (xx) the whole
  1593. of the Middle East now,
  1594.  
  1595. Zbigniew Brzezinski called it
  1596. "an arc of crisis" back in 1978 or '79.
  1597.  
  1598. It's much more an "arc of crisis" now
  1599. than it was then,
  1600.  
  1601. as a result of... you know,
  1602.  
  1603. I think that the invasion of Afghanistan
  1604. was also misguided,
  1605.  
  1606. but it's much more defensible than
  1607. the invasion of Iraq,
  1608.  
  1609. and the two of them
  1610. have grossly expanded...
  1611.  
  1612. -- let's not talk about al-Qaeda,
  1613. but let's talk about al-Qaeda's forces:
  1614.  
  1615. people who do similar things to al-Qaeda:
  1616. and there are many groups now --
  1617.  
  1618. and many of them are actually
  1619. based in Iraq
  1620.  
  1621. as a result of America's invasion of Iraq.
  1622.  
  1623. And this is spreading into Africa.
  1624.  
  1625. So I'm not sure that the beneficiaries
  1626. are really so much Russia and China
  1627.  
  1628. as (xx). I think Russia, China,
  1629. and America
  1630.  
  1631. all have common interests
  1632. in not seeing terrorists,
  1633.  
  1634. and I think Russia has been...
  1635. made it very clear
  1636.  
  1637. that they would like to collaborate
  1638. with the United States
  1639.  
  1640. in dealing with terrorism.
  1641.  
  1642. And there are times when,
  1643. particularly, Obama
  1644.  
  1645. seemed as if he was going to do more
  1646. in common with Russia,
  1647.  
  1648. particularly in Syria, for example,
  1649.  
  1650. where al-Qaedist elements are a major part
  1651. of the problem, now,
  1652.  
  1653. for both Russia and America.
  1654.  
  1655. And then we certainly get the Ukraine.
  1656.  
  1657. Even the Ukraine you could
  1658. really blame, in a way,
  1659.  
  1660. on what's happened since 9/11.
  1661.  
  1662. That may take more time
  1663. than we can do in our hour here,
  1664.  
  1665. but the deterioration of understanding
  1666. between Russia and America, which...
  1667.  
  1668. Afghanistan is part of that.
  1669.  
  1670. These are all complicated things,
  1671. but one thing that is so clear
  1672.  
  1673. is that the Iraq thing was a disaster,
  1674. and it's created tensions,
  1675.  
  1676. and if we don't learn how
  1677. to deal with these tensions,
  1678.  
  1679. we are closer to the risk
  1680. of nuclear war today
  1681.  
  1682. than we have been for 20 or 30 years.
  1683.  
  1684. And that is a very alarming situation.
  1685.  
  1686. (Lars) Related to the Iraq War:
  1687.  
  1688. has the peace movement
  1689. around the globe failed post-9/11?
  1690.  
  1691. It protested, for example,
  1692. against the war in Iraq,
  1693.  
  1694. but without questioning
  1695. the root of all evil,
  1696.  
  1697. the official 9/11 narrative,
  1698.  
  1699. as the pretext and justification
  1700. to go to war.
  1701.  
  1702. (Peter) Certainly, it would have been
  1703. a more powerful protest movement
  1704.  
  1705. against the idea of war in Iraq
  1706.  
  1707. if we had understood
  1708. what happened on 9/11.
  1709.  
  1710. I don't think that it's realistic to think
  1711. that we could have known enough
  1712.  
  1713. at the time America went in in 2003
  1714.  
  1715. and we didn't even get
  1716. the 9/11 Commission Report until 2004.
  1717.  
  1718. So I don't think it ever could have helped the anti-war movement in 2003,
  1719.  
  1720. but it certainly could help
  1721. future such movements.
  1722.  
  1723. I don't know what's going
  1724. to happen in the Ukraine, but...
  1725.  
  1726. -- well, no.
  1727. Actually, I think I do know, now:
  1728.  
  1729. I think Europe is intervening
  1730.  
  1731. to stop America from making
  1732. a complete fool of itself.
  1733.  
  1734. I cannot believe some of the things
  1735. that John Kerry has said recently:
  1736.  
  1737. I mean, when he, for example,
  1738. said to Putin after Crimea:
  1739.  
  1740. "We don't do that sort of thing
  1741. in the 21st Century,"
  1742.  
  1743. when America has been
  1744.  
  1745. the most conspicuous and flagrant example
  1746. of that kind of behavior.
  1747.  
  1748. So I think it's...
  1749.  
  1750. people not in government
  1751. have to mobilize around the world,
  1752.  
  1753. and create a kind of global public opinion
  1754. that can check...
  1755.  
  1756. -- I don't want to say just America,
  1757. but America and other governments --
  1758.  
  1759. ...when they start doing
  1760. excessive things.
  1761.  
  1762. It used to be the case that governments
  1763. didn't worry about public opinion,
  1764.  
  1765. and that was bad.
  1766.  
  1767. And now we're beginning
  1768. to develop a public opinion
  1769.  
  1770. which can constrain governments
  1771. -- and it has, sometimes, on occasion --
  1772.  
  1773. and that's good. I think public opinion,
  1774. for example, was a major factor
  1775.  
  1776. in persuading American corporations
  1777. not to invest in South Africa,
  1778.  
  1779. And that divestiture movement,
  1780. which was public opinion,
  1781.  
  1782. was a major factor -- Nelson Mandela
  1783. has said as much -- a major factor
  1784.  
  1785. in the liberation of South Africa.
  1786. So there have been...
  1787.  
  1788. public opinion, in the end,
  1789.  
  1790. is what ended segregation
  1791. in the southern United States.
  1792.  
  1793. So there is... there is, possibly...
  1794. it wasn't successful in Iraq,
  1795.  
  1796. but you shouldn't think that we could
  1797. draw the conclusion from a single thing,
  1798.  
  1799. and that these things
  1800. are not worth doing: they are.
  1801.  
  1802. (Lars) Do you have any hope
  1803. that the question
  1804.  
  1805. what did actually happen on 9/11
  1806. will be seriously addressed in the future?
  1807.  
  1808. (Peter) Well, if you mean addressed
  1809. by the US government, perhaps not.
  1810.  
  1811. But it is already seriously addressed
  1812.  
  1813. by people who have
  1814. devoted their lives to it.
  1815.  
  1816. I don't count myself in that number,
  1817. but there are such people.
  1818.  
  1819. I think they have made
  1820. very significant discoveries.
  1821.  
  1822. I think the amount of...
  1823.  
  1824. the fact that there was
  1825. explosive materials
  1826.  
  1827. has been pretty well established
  1828. in Building 7 and both the Towers.
  1829.  
  1830. There was a government investigation
  1831. of why the Towers went down, by...
  1832.  
  1833. I think it was called NIST:
  1834.  
  1835. the National Institute of Standards
  1836. [and Technology], and so on.
  1837.  
  1838. And NIST was forced
  1839. to revise its findings.
  1840.  
  1841. You know, they said the building...
  1842. Building 7 came down in 5.3 seconds,
  1843.  
  1844. and the critics were saying,
  1845. "Well, part of that time was free-fall."
  1846.  
  1847. And they just simply said,
  1848. from the 5.3 seconds:
  1849.  
  1850. "That's not free-fall."
  1851.  
  1852. So we asked for a clearer definition
  1853. of what they meant,
  1854.  
  1855. and they produced a graph
  1856. which showed that, in fact, yes:
  1857.  
  1858. for two or three seconds in the middle,
  1859. the building was in free-fall.
  1860.  
  1861. Now, if the building was in free-fall,
  1862. it must have had some kinds of explosions
  1863.  
  1864. to clear away the path
  1865. of the top of the building to descend.
  1866.  
  1867. It's as clear as that.
  1868.  
  1869. So I think we have made
  1870. significant progress.
  1871.  
  1872. We can talk about that as "serious."
  1873.  
  1874. When you get the government
  1875. to admit that...
  1876.  
  1877. well, you know, it's 2014,
  1878.  
  1879. and there has not been a reconsideration
  1880. of the Warren Commission,
  1881.  
  1882. but almost everybody in America knows
  1883.  
  1884. that the Warren Commission
  1885. is not the answer.
  1886.  
  1887. So, in public opinion, I think,
  1888.  
  1889. there will be more and more
  1890. serious investigation.
  1891.  
  1892. (Lars) Yeah, and that really matters.
  1893.  
  1894. But, from the international community,
  1895.  
  1896. that there's some pressure
  1897. on the US to get clean?
  1898.  
  1899. You don't think that this
  1900. will ever happen?
  1901.  
  1902. (Peter) I'm a former diplomat:
  1903.  
  1904. I don't think that's the way
  1905. governments talk to governments, no.
  1906.  
  1907. And I'm not sure they should:
  1908.  
  1909. they have to deal with
  1910. their narrow interests.
  1911.  
  1912. What we need to see is people in the world
  1913. exerting that kind of pressure.
  1914.  
  1915. Newspapers exerting that kind of pressure,
  1916.  
  1917. and it's lucky that we have
  1918. other countries that speak English
  1919.  
  1920. besides the United States, so that...
  1921.  
  1922. For example, the British press have given
  1923. a much better account
  1924.  
  1925. of what Glenn Greenwald has got
  1926. from Edward Snowden,
  1927.  
  1928. and in general, I think if an American
  1929.  
  1930. wants to know what's happening
  1931. in his country,
  1932.  
  1933. he should read The Guardian
  1934. in London.
  1935.  
  1936. We can read it online, so he has
  1937. no excuse not to.
  1938.  
  1939. That is the sort of thing that may restore
  1940. a degree of sanity to the world, when...
  1941.  
  1942. I have to say: America is
  1943. a wonderful country. I love living here.
  1944.  
  1945. It has a government which, you ultimately
  1946. have to say, is behaving insanely.
  1947.  
  1948. The invasion of Iraq was insane.
  1949.  
  1950. There was any number of experts who said
  1951. this was going to work out badly.
  1952.  
  1953. And when they said that Saddam Hussein
  1954. had weapons of mass destruction,
  1955.  
  1956. the evidence was discredited before...
  1957.  
  1958. so discredited that
  1959. we couldn't even use it
  1960.  
  1961. the way we really had wanted to use it.
  1962.  
  1963. Those kind of pressures
  1964. from public opinion are what we need
  1965.  
  1966. to bring the American government
  1967. back to sanity.
  1968.  
  1969. (Lars) And how do you judge upon the fact
  1970. that there was no...
  1971.  
  1972. that there was no punishment
  1973. for this lying about the Iraq War?
  1974.  
  1975. (Peter) We can
  1976. get into details about this.
  1977.  
  1978. You know, in my American War Machine,
  1979.  
  1980. I show how a private corporation
  1981. conducted intelligence
  1982.  
  1983. on whether he had weapons
  1984. of mass destruction or not,
  1985.  
  1986. and they concluded that he did.
  1987. SAIC is the name of the corporation.
  1988.  
  1989. And then they decided afterwards,
  1990. when it turned out that they hadn't,
  1991.  
  1992. they said, "We'd better find out
  1993. how we could have been so wrong."
  1994.  
  1995. And who did they charge
  1996. to find out what went wrong?
  1997.  
  1998. The same corporation, SAIC.
  1999.  
  2000. I'm sort of like Bishop Tutu
  2001. in South Africa:
  2002.  
  2003. I think we need truth and reconciliation.
  2004.  
  2005. That's more important right now
  2006. than to send people to jail.
  2007.  
  2008. We need the truth so urgently,
  2009.  
  2010. I would be willing to forego
  2011. putting people in prison
  2012.  
  2013. if we could get the truth.
  2014.  
  2015. Becuase if we got the truth,
  2016. that would certainly force, for example,
  2017.  
  2018. ending the State of Emergency
  2019. that still exists in this country,
  2020.  
  2021. renewed by Obama
  2022. without discussion every year:
  2023.  
  2024. once a year, it has to be renewed.
  2025.  
  2026. Then Congress would do
  2027. what it's supposed to do:
  2028.  
  2029. look at the State of Emergency,
  2030. look at Continuity of Government.
  2031.  
  2032. The more the truth came out
  2033. about these things,
  2034.  
  2035. the more we would return
  2036. to America as it used to be,
  2037.  
  2038. which was very, very far
  2039. from an ideal condition,
  2040.  
  2041. but very, very much better
  2042. than what we have in America today.
  2043.  
  2044. (Lars) Are Wall Street interests
  2045. at the very heart of the Deep State?
  2046.  
  2047. (Peter) Yes. The way, in my book, I...
  2048.  
  2049. the initial notion of the Deep State
  2050. is the public institutions,
  2051.  
  2052. and then overshadowed by NSA,
  2053. CIA, JSOC, and the Pentagon:
  2054.  
  2055. all these new secret institutions.
  2056. That's your first level of the Deep State.
  2057.  
  2058. But these agencies are powerful because
  2059.  
  2060. they have connections outside
  2061. the government.
  2062.  
  2063. They don't just report up
  2064. to the President, but they are also...
  2065.  
  2066. particularly the CIA...
  2067. -- this is easy to document --
  2068.  
  2069. ...is very rooted in Wall Street.
  2070.  
  2071. And it was, like, largely designed
  2072. by Allen Dulles
  2073.  
  2074. while he was still a Wall Street lawyer,
  2075. before he actually entered the CIA.
  2076.  
  2077. And it... the CIA is as powerful as it is
  2078.  
  2079. because of its connections
  2080. to Wall Street, and...
  2081.  
  2082. -- it used to be almost the same thing --
  2083. its connections to Big Oil.
  2084.  
  2085. Because the big oil companies
  2086. used to be based in New York;
  2087.  
  2088. and they were put together by Wall Street;
  2089. and they operated as a cartel
  2090.  
  2091. that was defended successfully
  2092. by Sullivan and Cromwell,
  2093.  
  2094. which was a Wall Street law firm
  2095. that, not accidentally,
  2096.  
  2097. John Foster Dulles and Allen Dulles
  2098. were senior members of.
  2099.  
  2100. Yes: the... Wall Street is important.
  2101. It was then.
  2102.  
  2103. It's historically easy to show
  2104. in the 1950s: and I do in my book.
  2105.  
  2106. It's harder to show in the present,
  2107. but there are are many indications.
  2108.  
  2109. I think... oh, one thing is:
  2110. the Deep State, we should mention,
  2111.  
  2112. is going more and more multinational
  2113. as the corporations go multinational.
  2114.  
  2115. Exxon is a multinational firm,
  2116. and there are some US firms,
  2117.  
  2118. -- notably Blackwater, which is
  2119. this kind of private army
  2120.  
  2121. that turns up in various places --
  2122.  
  2123. Germany is saying...
  2124. I believe you have, in Germany...
  2125.  
  2126. your President said that Blackwater
  2127. or a subsidiary of Blackwater
  2128.  
  2129. is operating in the Ukraine.
  2130.  
  2131. (Lars) Yes, that's right.
  2132.  
  2133. (Peter) Well, we called it
  2134. an American corporation,
  2135.  
  2136. but now, technically, their headquarters
  2137. is in Qatar, in the Persian Gulf.
  2138.  
  2139. So, you cannot control it.
  2140.  
  2141. How is Washington going
  2142. to control a corporation
  2143.  
  2144. whose headquarters are in
  2145. the Persian Gulf?
  2146.  
  2147. You're getting the apparatus
  2148. of a supra-national Deep State,
  2149.  
  2150. and we are going to need to develop
  2151. institutions on a supra-national level
  2152.  
  2153. that can deal with
  2154. these new kinds of institutions
  2155.  
  2156. whose business is to stir up unrest,
  2157. because it's profitable.
  2158.  
  2159. (Lars) Two personal questions
  2160. at the very end.
  2161.  
  2162. How do you deal with it
  2163. that you get dismissed
  2164.  
  2165. as a "conspiracy theorist"
  2166. from time to time?
  2167.  
  2168. And how do you deal with the sadness
  2169.  
  2170. that must surely be a follower of yours,
  2171. given your ouevre?
  2172.  
  2173. (Peter) [inaudible]
  2174.  
  2175. (Lars) I mean, when I read your stuff,
  2176. I get super depressed.
  2177.  
  2178. And so I would like to know,
  2179. what's with you?
  2180.  
  2181. I mean, you are the one
  2182. who writes this, right?
  2183.  
  2184. And has to cope with the truth:
  2185. and, how do you deal with it?
  2186.  
  2187. (Peter) Well, I've learned
  2188. to expect less and less in my lifetime.
  2189.  
  2190. I am... first of all, call me
  2191. a conspiracy theorist.
  2192.  
  2193. It's almost a badge of honor the way...
  2194.  
  2195. the people who are using the phrase,
  2196. they lump me in
  2197.  
  2198. with people who believe
  2199. in extraterrestrials, and so on.
  2200.  
  2201. I guess if they refute me
  2202. by talking about extraterrestrials,
  2203.  
  2204. that's a sign that they don't want
  2205. to deal with what I'm actually saying,
  2206.  
  2207. which, I suppose, is a kind
  2208. of negative compliment.
  2209.  
  2210. I had trouble hearing you,
  2211.  
  2212. but if you asked how I deal
  2213. psychologically
  2214.  
  2215. with not being heard and so on,
  2216. it's been difficult at times in my life.
  2217.  
  2218. In fact, back around 1980,
  2219. I was supposed to have a book come out...
  2220.  
  2221. -- a quarter of a million copies,
  2222. first printing --
  2223.  
  2224. about the Kennedy assassination,
  2225.  
  2226. and then my publisher suppressed it.
  2227.  
  2228. And I took that very hard.
  2229. I went into a kind of depression.
  2230.  
  2231. But it was the luckiest thing
  2232. that ever happened to me,
  2233.  
  2234. because out of that depression,
  2235.  
  2236. I started writing a poem
  2237. called Coming to Jakarta.
  2238.  
  2239. And that poem deals with depression,
  2240. and deals with terror,
  2241.  
  2242. and deals with all the things
  2243. that were really upsetting me.
  2244.  
  2245. And my other book,
  2246. that didn't get published,
  2247.  
  2248. is not nearly as important to me
  2249. as Coming to Jakarta,
  2250.  
  2251. which was the result of the suppression.
  2252.  
  2253. So I feel I was, in a sense, a lucky guy.
  2254.  
  2255. And in my... I have a very lovely
  2256. second marriage,
  2257.  
  2258. and I feel sustained: meeting people
  2259. like you, Lars, in Germany.
  2260.  
  2261. I know somebody in Moscow now.
  2262.  
  2263. I have my French translator,
  2264. Maxime Chaix.
  2265.  
  2266. These are all wonderful people
  2267.  
  2268. that I'm so privileged
  2269. to know and work with.
  2270.  
  2271. And because I've always believed
  2272. that the task for my generation
  2273.  
  2274. was to lay the foundations
  2275. of a global public opinion,
  2276.  
  2277. a global civil society:
  2278. and I think I see that happening.
  2279.  
  2280. I don't feel depressed.
  2281.  
  2282. I think that it's very fragile,
  2283. because it depends on the Internet,
  2284.  
  2285. and the Internet is a gift
  2286. that can be taken away very easily
  2287.  
  2288. by those in power,
  2289. and occasionally is.
  2290.  
  2291. Actually, my website on Facebook
  2292. was suppressed at a certain point.
  2293.  
  2294. I don't know why:
  2295. probably accidentally,
  2296.  
  2297. because they really wanted
  2298. to get someone else.
  2299.  
  2300. So, it's fragile, but it's working.
  2301.  
  2302. And if it were to be suppressed,
  2303. then something else would be...
  2304.  
  2305. I do believe... I believe in the goodness
  2306. of the human species,
  2307.  
  2308. and I also believe that we have had
  2309. bad governments
  2310.  
  2311. from the beginning of time.
  2312.  
  2313. And we haven't made... you know,
  2314. we've made progress in some respects,
  2315.  
  2316. but we've made the opposite of progress
  2317. in some respects,
  2318.  
  2319. because the risks of the human race
  2320. destroying itself
  2321.  
  2322. are obviously greater today
  2323. than they were 100 years ago...
  2324.  
  2325. -- so, that's not such great progress --
  2326.  
  2327. but I... in my poetry, I talk about
  2328. what an idiot I am to write about politics.
  2329.  
  2330. And sometimes I think I am an idiot.
  2331.  
  2332. But I enjoy it;
  2333. and I enjoy talking to you,
  2334.  
  2335. so let's... why not keep going?
  2336.  
  2337. (Lars) OK. Thank you very much
  2338. for this conversation.
  2339.  
  2340. [Subtitled by "Adjuvant"]
  2341. [CC-BY 4.0]
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