Juran_Fox - Today at 10:10 AM
Several different key factors here.
1: The order in which the calculations are made.
The order is Always... Player, Elder, and then Shaper.
So when an atlas change happens, first thing to get registered, is the player's effect.
Next thing to get registered, is the Elder's reaction, and then after that, comes the shaper's reaction.
That is 100% concluded and certain
Beyond this, it goes into theory and conjecture.
Now, the player's effect on the atlas, is only really noted if it affects elder directly.
Which means, killing random shaper masses away from Elder will not make any impact whatsoever on Elder.
Neither will it have any impact on shaper.
Other then of course, erasing influence from the sector.
Killing elder, or shaper masses that are connected or at least in immediate proximity to Elder, has a massive effect on Elder, but little effect on shaper.
Shaper is static.
To give some meaning and calculation to this explanation, let's consider that all of shaper's properties, have a power of 10.
Every single one of them, equal power of 10.
And let's say that maps, whites in particular, have a fortification of 5, yellows have a fortification of 10, and reds have a fortification of 15.
Fortifications, make a huge difference to Shaper, but they don't matter to Elder.
Fortifications are basically considered points directly against shaper's strength.
Shaper, can stack his strength.
While all his properties have a power of 10, if he has 2 properties going into a single map, he stacks the power of both properties.
Which means, in the case of waste pool shaper's actual power going into Waste Pool is 20.
Elder on the other hand, is extremely dynamic.
Elder has no set power values.
Neither am I sure it has a max power value either.
Elder DOES have proximity bonuses.
And a huge majority of Elder's power base comes from momentum.
Let's say Elder's base power among the entire atlas, is 1.
Note, that Elder completely ignores fortifications AS WELL as power levels.
So when Elder wants to expand, he can expand, and doesn't give a shit about what is in his way.
Shaper on the other hand has limitations as to what he can expand into, because of power levels and fortifications.
Shaper has an extreme difficulty going from yellow maps into red tier maps without help.
Elder does not.
In any case.
With Elder, you have various different calculations to determine the power level for defending.
There is absolutely no power level calculations made when Elder attacks, but only what he defends.
When Elder attacks, he wins, end of subject.
When shaper attacks... he calculates power level vs fortification and residing power level.
The elder's power level on defense relies on 3 major things.
1: Fortifications.
If an Elder map, is red, and the shaper's maps are yellow, fortifications give Elder a bonus of 5 let's say.
Which means shaper is going to have to fight harder to get in.
2: Proximity
Upon defending, an elder map is stronger, the more allies that are directly connected to it. This is not a major calculation, but it is definitly notable.
A single map all alone, will get conquered MUCH more quickly, then a map in a pack of 3 defenders.
This also might be due to the fact that a single map all alone will also have multiple shaper attackers.
3: And this is the most major one of them all... Momentum.
Elder gains power level for every single battle won, and loses power level for every single battle lost.
Losing battles costs twice even three times the power level that winning a battle would give.
This power level does have a cap, however at it's cap shaper cannot do anything unless he has 3 nodes leading into a single elder map.
Because from what I can see, the cap has an upper limit of some amount below the max shaper power of 3 maps.
As long as you make sure shaper only has 2 maps leading into any one of your other maps, and you have a maximum momentum elder going, shaper will not take over a single map.
I proved this cause I basically went 10 maps without shaper taking over a single map.
Elder wrecked shaper right and left without mercy.
But shaper didn't do shit.
The INSTANT though, I started cutting elder, to finish the ring.
Shaper started winning.
That's why I lost my ring I assume the first time.
I had to cut 3-4 maps in a row.
And after that, I lost like 10 maps straight due to shaper winning constantly.
The more you cut, the more you hurt Elder's momentum.
And for Elder, momentum is the most important thing Elder has as far as defending power goes.
Now... let's focus on turn based stratagy.
The player? that's rather obvious.
You conquer a shaped map, Elder gains momentum.
You conquer and elder map, Elder loses momentum.
Elder's turn.
Elder will then pick the weakest map he can find, if there are multiple weak ones, he'll go for one of them.
You've probably noticed how often when you kill a shaped map, Elder will go ahead and expand even further then you were intending?
That's because shaper hasn't reacted yet, and the maps beyond the one you just conquered, are barren, with no shaper influence, therefore making them the easiest maps to conquer.
If there are no barren maps, it's more a matter of connections.
How many Elders are feeding into a map, AND how close is the guardians/actual elder boss.
Shaper's turn
Shaper has two major calculations.
1: Power level.
Where does shaper have the most power to attack?
Which means, the point where shaper has 2-3 maps feeding into a single elder map, is where shaper will attack.
Almost every single round.
and 2: Damage done to Elder by attack.
So the first thing that happens is a list of maps that shaper can attack with the maximum amount of power level possible.
In the case of my map there, we had Waste Pools, Orchard, Spider lair, and a few others.
However, due to the second calculation.
Waste Pools was ALWAYS...
ALWAYS the target.
Why? Cause that is the one that would do the most damage.
So... Shaper constantly attacked Waste Pools.
The only shaper nodes leading into Waste Pools were yellow ones, therefore Waste Pools had a 5+ bonus because of fortifications.
Waste Pools was also supported by 2 neighbors, which gave it a bonus of 5 each I'm going to assume.
So that's 15, plus Waste Pool's own bonus of 5 brings it up to 20.
A tie in other words.
Shaper would actually win in a tie, but only if Elder has no momentum whatsoever.
MoldyDwarf - Today at 10:29 AM
waste pool is a yellow map
Juran_Fox - Today at 10:29 AM
The momentum of Elder, made it absolutely impossible for shaper to win.
MoldyDwarf - Today at 10:29 AM
elder ignores shaping
Juran_Fox - Today at 10:29 AM
And not on my atlas.
Not in my experience.
Okay
Yes
Elder ignores shaping.
Shaper doesn't.
Remember what I said? Elder ignores all fortifications.
Shaper does not.
Now on the Shaper's turn, he'll roll 2-3 attacks.
The first one will always follow the rules 1 and 2.
The 2 and 3rd ones will follow the rules more loosely in an attempt to win.
The first one to win, gets picked.
So, he attacks Waste Pool every single rotation, fails.
Then goes on to attack other targets, and continues failing due to Elder momentum.
Elder is unstoppable... if you make sure that you don't cut it unless absolutely necessary.
And if you make sure that there are no connections where shaper has 3 maps leading into Elder.
If you DO have to cut it.
Do you best to cut it once, give Elder a win or 2 if possible.
And then cut it again.
Cutting it twice in a row, will give shaper the upper hand on maps without fortification.
That's if you're at maximum momentum.
Thoughts?
Questions?
MoldyDwarf - Today at 10:34 AM
It's possible.
After I have a better pool, I'll try testing the theory.
Juran_Fox - Today at 10:35 AM
I've been formulating this theory for the past 2 leagues.
I think it's pretty solid.
Course, it could have just been blind luck on my part. :stuck_out_tongue:
But my suggestion to you is simple.
Get your elder near a shaped map that you want to keep.
Protect everything up to the shaped map.
Leave the shaped map undefended, and then just expand out as happily as you please, avoiding any 3 linked shaper routes.
If you don't defend up to the shaped map, then that gives shaper and advantage on point #2.
So... you never did say. :stuck_out_tongue:
You think it's a good theory?
A bad theory?
MoldyDwarf - Today at 10:39 AM
"It's possible."
Juran_Fox - Today at 10:39 AM
Something you've suspected but never been sure? :stuck_out_tongue:
lol, that's about as neutral as it gets. xD
MoldyDwarf - Today at 10:39 AM
default is "no that's nonsense," not "might be right"
Juran_Fox - Today at 10:40 AM
lol
Well, you test it. :wink:
Then you come back and tell me if my theory is bs. :stuck_out_tongue:
I am looking forward to seeing how it works out for you
MoldyDwarf - Today at 10:42 AM
i'll do it when you're around
and you can tell me at each step what'll happen
Juran_Fox - Today at 10:42 AM
lol, I can't predict that exactly. :stuck_out_tongue:
I can give ideas as to what will happen though. :wink:
MoldyDwarf - Today at 10:45 AM
if i do a map next to elder that has no influence, does elder expand there?
or does he not care
Juran_Fox - Today at 10:45 AM
He may expand there, but it won't be because you did it.
It will be the same as you doing a random white map.
With no influence on it either way.
The first calculation is you, and when it checks and sees that there is no influence, it will ignore you in future calculations.
The second calculation is where Elder will expand.
On that, considering you mentioned that the map is barren and without influence next to elder, he may expand into there anyways because that's one of the lowest challenge options provided.
Ftr
Just incase you're curious
That photo, is exactly how the ring was made.
No removing of blocks, or defending units.
I made the ring, and simply removed the 2 maps connecting elder to the guardian, and then snapped the photo. :stuck_out_tongue:
MoldyDwarf - Today at 10:54 AM
so how did you stop elder from wandering off in bad directions?
Juran_Fox - Today at 10:55 AM
Firstly the ring was made rather quickly, no more then 6-8 maps run I'm going to guess.
Secondly, he DID wander off in bad directions...
I had to cut him 3-4 times in the making of that ring.
Believe me I was very nervous about that...
I was careful to only cut between wins.
Thirdly, for the most part, he behaved himself.
I'm going to guess a third of the ring was Elder advancing on his own.
Infact, in the end, he was the one who completed the ring.
Remember what I said? Player calcuation, then Elder, then Shaper?
Elder always choosing the easiest map?
You kill shaper's influence, the easiest map is generally the one beyond.
Cause Elder always expands into the new position first, then looks at where to attack.
So quite often I'd do 1 map, and manage to expand the ring 2 maps.
Not always though was the 2nd map where I wanted him to go. xD