[22:01] <EchoCian> I just want to play a lunar Bayonetta already
[22:02] <TransientPeople2> Bayonetta doesn't really seem Lunar to me...
[22:02] <TransientPeople2> I mean
[22:03] <EchoCian> I could make solar Dante for monkey maybe
[22:03] <TransientPeople2> I do like the concept of bodymorpher lunars
[22:03] <Vinay> what, with the consistent animal motif and the shapeshifting and all?
[22:03] <Vinay> (note that her shadow has butterfly wings)
[22:03] <EchoCian> Butterfly tell and shape-shifting
[22:03] <TransientPeople2> but I think they've gone with the full shapeshift route
[22:03] <TransientPeople2> not the 'aspect of animals' one
[22:03] <TransientPeople2> (I would pay like all the money to play a Lunar that fought like Morrigan from Darkstalkers)
[22:04] <EchoCian> ... Like how she turns into animals fully?
[22:04] <EchoCian> I am going to have a butterfly tell and you can't stop me
[22:05] <TransientPeople2> Yes, but as a primary fighting style
[22:05] <TransientPeople2> as opposed to a flourish
[22:05] <TransientPeople2> Think Animorphs
[22:05] <EchoCian> So she turns into animals for longer
[22:06] <EchoCian> That's still more lunar than anything else
[22:07] <TransientPeople2> Honestly Bayonetta's style most reminds me of martial arts than anything else
[22:07] <EchoCian> Mart lunar
[22:07] <EchoCian> Lunarmart.
[22:08] <TransientPeople2> The question is if there is any reason to be a mart lunar
[22:08] <TransientPeople2> Since they are the one celestial splat that gets hosed for it
[22:08] <EchoCian> Were
[22:08] <EchoCian> Don't know now
[22:08] <TransientPeople2> ?
[22:08] <TransientPeople2> You mean are, at least going by the corebook
[22:08] <TransientPeople2> solaroids can use Mastery and so can Sids
[22:08] <TransientPeople2> Lunars get the no frills version
[22:08] <EchoCian> Unless 3e has indicated this
[22:09] <EchoCian> Ah
[22:09] <TransientPeople2> no 'penalties' either but compared to the other dudes on their tier they don't benefit either
[22:09] <EchoCian> Meh
[22:09] <Thesaurasaurus> the short version is that characters from other media don't always map neatly to Exalted, but you could easily make a Lunar who does all the things Bayonetta does
[22:10] <TransientPeople2> You could yeah
[22:10] <EchoCian> If you want to emphasize the marts, make a solar
[22:10] <TransientPeople2> It just doesn't really...sing to me, honestly
[22:10] <TransientPeople2> Maybe fits better as an exigent of Queen Sheba, possibly
[22:10] <Vinay> No? It felt perfect as a 2e Lunar, at least.
[22:10] <EchoCian> If you want to use the shape-shifting, make a lunar
[22:10] <Thesaurasaurus> her pact-demon is Madama Butterfly
[22:11] <Thesaurasaurus> flavor-wise, she's more Infernal
[22:11] <TransientPeople2> Mostly because the shifting is cosmetic in a lot of ways (granted, the format might have something to do with it)
[22:11] <Thesaurasaurus> (Urge: Go Kill Angels)
[22:11] <EchoCian> And well TP
[22:11] <TransientPeople2> And 2e lunars are and were...sort of unsuited to the Bayonetta style
[22:11] <TransientPeople2> though that's more the charmset being to blame for being shit
[22:11] <Thesaurasaurus> yes that
[22:12] <TransientPeople2> Since you sort of HAD to play Mega Soakmonster or die
[22:12] <EchoCian> I don't care if it doesn't sing to you because I'm the one who wants to play it =V
[22:12] <Thesaurasaurus> we're talking about hypothetical 3e Lunars that have a coherent concept and good charms
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[22:12] <TransientPeople2> Ya
[22:12] <TransientPeople2> All I'm saying is, the devs said they were not gonna do the TAW style of lunardom
[22:12] <stormgale> The dev's said alot of things
[22:13] <TransientPeople2> they have, but deadlines aside they've been consistent-ish
[22:14] <TransientPeople2> I can't really recall anything they said that they really backtracked on, previews aside
[22:14] <EchoCian> They will probably double down on wild barbarians and I will find them even more boring and ignore the fluff
[22:14] * KJ2 (~KirbyJ@synIRC-DA871B56.satx.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
[22:14] <TransientPeople2> So far the concept seems to be definitely wild, not so much barbarians
[22:14] <oldmidgetwillow> ~barbarians~
[22:14] <oldmidgetwillow> wanna make magical girl barbarian lunar game
[22:15] <TransientPeople2> More...
[22:15] <TransientPeople2> Hmm
[22:15] <TransientPeople2> Best way I've seen to explain it is
[22:15] <TransientPeople2> that lunars, more or less to a man, embody the concept of being 'The Anathema', not solars
[22:15] <Thesaurasaurus> I have said it before
[22:15] <Vinay> One of my skypegamers commented that Usagi was kind of a Full Moon already, which is a strange comment given what I saw of Sailor Moon.
[22:15] <TransientPeople2> they are The Opposition, for every status quo
[22:15] <Thesaurasaurus> I want Ex3 Lunars to be what Beast wanted to be and failed spectacularly
[22:15] <TransientPeople2> Hateful otherkin?
[22:16] <Thesaurasaurus> that would be the spectacular failure
[22:16] <TransientPeople2> (cheap shot I know)
[22:16] <TransientPeople2> I honestly have no idea what the hell beast wanted to be
[22:16] <Thesaurasaurus> (just make Beasts actual goddamn monsters already)
[22:16] <TransientPeople2> The game's identity was even more confused than the characters
[22:17] <EchoCian> The main thing that bugged me about reading the lunar manual was the emphasis on wild barbarians that made it feel like if you wanted to not play Conan you were doing it wrong
[22:17] <EchoCian> They have lip service to a lunar good at Riddles or poetry
[22:17] <oldmidgetwillow> mannn i got hella riddles
[22:17] <TransientPeople2> Yes, 2e lunars was not good for playing something like the Pink Bat
[22:17] * KJ2 (~KirbyJ@synIRC-DA871B56.satx.res.rr.com) has joined #allunderheaven
[22:17] <oldmidgetwillow> currently engaged in a double riddle battle :\
[22:18] <oldmidgetwillow> between the two sides of a door
[22:18] <EchoCian> But every example was a crazy social geneticist or a Feral Warrior
[22:18] <TransientPeople2> (Still so sad I didn't get to try out Bat-Mat-Karo)
[22:18] <TransientPeople2> (But I think not joining a zeetoo game was the right call)
[22:18] <Hyperax> a zeetoo game?
[22:18] <TransientPeople2> yes
[22:18] <TransientPeople2> zeetoo's games have infamously all ended up abandoned
[22:18] <EchoCian> He has decided sa rping is not for him for unspecified reasons
[22:18] <EchoCian> But yeah
[22:18] <Vinay> I will contend to the end of my days that after looking at the Lunars 2e manual and thinking about it, Ferin (aka Lunar Loki) came to mind fully-formed.
[22:19] <TransientPeople2> Loki is good lunar inspiration material
[22:19] <EchoCian> Not bothering with him again even though he's been a friend for years
[22:19] <Thesaurasaurus> also!
[22:19] <EchoCian> Some people just can't keep games going
[22:19] <Thesaurasaurus> the fact that the book told you to play Conan
[22:19] <Thesaurasaurus> and then did a terrible job of letting you be Conan
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[22:19] <Thesaurasaurus> because Solars had already been given that gamespace
[22:19] <TransientPeople2> Solars have
[22:19] <TransientPeople2> yep
[22:19] <TransientPeople2> That
[22:19] <Thesaurasaurus> you didn't get to be Conan
[22:20] <TransientPeople2> Solars are thematically SUPER resonant with Conan
[22:20] <EchoCian> Naturally
[22:20] <TransientPeople2> And this isn't a case of 'solar bloat' either
[22:20] <TransientPeople2> It's a quintessential concept for them
[22:20] <Thesaurasaurus> you got to be the Wise Ethnic Companion who acts mysterious and ethnic and helps Our Hero
[22:20] <TransientPeople2> So Lunars being the 'Conan splat' is nonsensical
[22:20] <oldmidgetwillow> i mean any time the lunars go into the Wyld it is in no way shape or form Conan
[22:20] <Thesaurasaurus> then dies before the end of the book
[22:20] <oldmidgetwillow> and that is like…one of their things
[22:20] <TransientPeople2> Honestly
[22:20] <TransientPeople2> Lunars should be the Weird Antagonist
[22:20] <oldmidgetwillow> then it goes into freaky sidhe riddle madness
[22:21] <TransientPeople2> It's a gamespace that they fit really well
[22:21] <Thesaurasaurus> yeah
[22:21] <TransientPeople2> what with being bitter enemies of the deebs and sids, living in chaosland, being the counterpoint to the superhuman solars
[22:22] <Thesaurasaurus> and their PC gamespace should revolve around the fact that yes, pretty much all their stated grievances are legit
[22:22] <TransientPeople2> The issue is that their predecessors have been shit shit shit at fixing them
[22:22] <TransientPeople2> or getting proper recognition
[22:22] <TransientPeople2> (I'm looking at you, elders)
[22:22] <Thesaurasaurus> this is what I mean about doing Beast, but right
[22:23] <EchoCian> The elders were just sort of there and all boring, even as potential antagonists
[22:23] <EchoCian> Like Filial Wisdom but all of them
[22:23] <Thesaurasaurus> their principal beef with the Realm and its dependents
[22:23] <Thesaurasaurus> is that they keep sending jingoistic murderhobos after them
[22:24] <TransientPeople2> Worse
[22:24] <TransientPeople2> Filial Wisdom is at least inoffensive
[22:24] <TransientPeople2> Raksi the babyeating gorillafucker is active and casts a huge fucking shadow over all lunars
[22:24] <TransientPeople2> same for mahasuchi
[22:24] <EchoCian> Right then there's that
[22:25] <oldmidgetwillow> it'd be an interesting setup, having a fairly green set of DBs sent after some Lunars at the edge of the world and ending up with something between Predator and Heart of Darkness
[22:25] <TransientPeople2> It'd be like if Chejop Kejak had absolutely zero nuance or interesting characterization
[22:25] <TransientPeople2> It'd make Sids look fucking awful for such an iconic character to be so bad
[22:25] <EchoCian> They're boring except for being ~edgy~ but even their edginess is boring
[22:26] <TransientPeople2> Lunar elders were Maximum 2e
[22:27] <TransientPeople2> In that they were hugely plot-impacting shit that derailed everything and had this 'end of the world/super important' vibe
[22:27] <TransientPeople2> Thus reducing the space you had to do fun things with the setting and concepts
[22:27] <EchoCian> Except not because they did nothing except for lurk in their sends of villainy
[22:28] <EchoCian> Dens
[22:28] <EchoCian> I could be forgetting though
[22:28] <TransientPeople2> If you were a nonlunar, yes. If you were a lunar yourself these dudes cast a shadow on the silver pact
[22:28] <EchoCian> I didn't exactly read thoroughly
[22:29] <TransientPeople2> It's honestly kind of amazing that the Infernals had more interesting bosses (in the sense of superiors, not bossfights, though they could be that) than Lunars
[22:29] <TransientPeople2> You normally shouldn't interact with Malfeas and Adorjan directly, but if for some reason you did, at least they were interesting characters
[22:29] <oldmidgetwillow> so Echo I am confused; are we starting combat or not starting combat? Is it that they are not making the first move so we get the chance to at least try to talk them down?
[22:29] <EchoCian> The latter
[22:30] <oldmidgetwillow> you can say many things about Malfeas but "boring" is not one of them
[22:30] <EchoCian> If someone wants to jump them they can
[22:30] <TransientPeople2> Yeah
[22:30] <EchoCian> But talking might be better!
[22:30] <TransientPeople2> The only boring Yozi was Ted
[22:30] <TransientPeople2> and even Ted could be made interesting easily
[22:30] <TransientPeople2> instead of having to flat out torch everything about him and run
[22:31] <Vinay> I always envisioned Ted as Hazama from Blazblue - cheeky villainous fun right up until you realize that no, he really IS that awful.
[22:32] <EchoCian> I hope 3e splats are balanced for mixed splat play better
[22:32] <oldmidgetwillow> i love how the 'master of deception' is eye-rollingly bad at it
[22:32] <Thesaurasaurus> it was so very appropriate how that ended up in Chronophantasma
[22:32] <TransientPeople2> See, Hazama has charisma tho
[22:32] <oldmidgetwillow> yet everyone keeps on trusting the literal embodiment of betrayal
[22:32] <Thesaurasaurus> Hakumen gets fed up with his shit
[22:32] <TransientPeople2> And also ballin themes
[22:32] <Thesaurasaurus> "I'm so fuckin' awesome!"
[22:32] <Thesaurasaurus> Hakumen: :fuckoff:
[22:32] <Plutonis> hazama as been a fucktard since the original
[22:33] <Plutonis> brah
[22:33] <TransientPeople2> Totally
[22:33] <TransientPeople2> but he is very good at being a fucktard
[22:33] <Thesaurasaurus> he is like Littlefinger
[22:33] <Vinay> Of course, but he was always a FUN fucktard, in that Disney villain moustache-twirling kind of way.
[22:33] <TransientPeople2> He's not some master deceiver, he's a huge troll and revels in it
[22:33] <TransientPeople2> And nobody can resist taking the bait
[22:33] <Thesaurasaurus> in that he has an uncanny power to persuade people who really should know better
[22:33] <TransientPeople2> Which suits him because he HAS to troll to live
[22:33] <Vinay> He's good with timing!
[22:34] <oldmidgetwillow> imagining ted wearing a fedora saying "milady" to someone
[22:34] <Vinay> He generally goes for people when they'd be open to his suggestions - his little 'what you're feeling is perfectly natural' speech to Tsubaki comes to mind.
[22:34] <TransientPeople2> Exactly
[22:34] <Hyperax> I know someone in real life who does that to a girl I know, oldmidgetwillow
[22:34] <Vinay> not that that diminishes the fedora imagery at all
[22:34] <TransientPeople2> Ted has never done shit like that
[22:35] <Hyperax> calls her midlady all the time, pretty consistantly fails to realize the girl's a lesbian and not interested
[22:35] <TransientPeople2> Instead we get The Chapters That Do Not Exist
[22:35] <oldmidgetwillow> ugh
[22:35] <Vinay> Did you know I'd almost forgotten those existed?
[22:35] <oldmidgetwillow> *ted walks up to Lilith and tips his fedora at her
[22:35] <TransientPeople2> The urge to quote that super bad passage is overwhelming
[22:36] <TransientPeople2> but I must resist
[22:36] <Thesaurasaurus> ughhhhh
[22:36] <Thesaurasaurus> also
[22:36] <TransientPeople2> I do not wish to ruin your evening
[22:36] <Vinay> Teep, please do not do so.
[22:36] <Thesaurasaurus> I saw a trio of MRAs at the supermarket
[22:36] <Thesaurasaurus> I could tell
[22:36] <oldmidgetwillow> can't get a girlfriend so he has to kidnap the Scarlet Empress
[22:36] <TransientPeople2> You know
[22:36] <oldmidgetwillow> thinks she really, really likes him
[22:36] <TransientPeople2> I think that's the fundamental difference
[22:36] <Thesaurasaurus> they were wearing footie pajamas and plastic fedoras
[22:36] <TransientPeople2> Hazama is a troll
[22:36] <TransientPeople2> Ted is an MRA
[22:36] <EchoCian> Wha
[22:36] <Thesaurasaurus> and shirts that read "Cool Story Babe. Now get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich."
[22:36] <oldmidgetwillow> mens rights advocate
[22:37] <EchoCian> =/
[22:37] <Vinay> Lilith is the one Lunar elder I'm OK with, specifically because of some of her first age fluff where she treats being an animal as like being on vacation, because then she doesn't have to worry about person stuff for a while.
[22:37] <EchoCian> Did you punch them
[22:37] <TransientPeople2> Lilith would be great
[22:37] <EchoCian> They sohnd like they need a good punch
[22:37] <TransientPeople2> but, y'know
[22:37] <Thesaurasaurus> why would I touch them
[22:37] <TransientPeople2> Desus attachment
[22:37] <TransientPeople2> One case where you just gotta torch everything and run
[22:37] <Vinay> the less said about that the better.
[22:37] <Vinay> fuck's sake, 2e
[22:37] <EchoCian> Touch them with a hammer
[22:38] <Vinay> How can you put all this shit in the same edition as providing an in-world excuse for 'you all meet in bar' literally codified into local law?
[22:39] <Thesaurasaurus> because White Wolf can't subtext
[22:39] <oldmidgetwillow> they just try to subtext in all caps
[22:39] <Thesaurasaurus> "Some Solars were/are shitty to their Lunar mates": this is a premise from which you can build story elements
[22:40] <oldmidgetwillow> i mean we could! we just don't need to hear about creepy sex stuff with that
[22:40] <Thesaurasaurus> "Desus is a Lifetime movie villain with mind-control powers": fuck off mate
[22:40] <Vinay> Indeed.
[22:40] <TransientPeople2> That is too kind to Desus
[22:40] <oldmidgetwillow> Lunar with past life flashbacks. unfortunately they are all weird and involve them wearing a maid outfit for some reason
[22:41] <TransientPeople2> Desus is literally a nightmare scenario me and misty accidentally arrived at when we discussed how Ada and Rick's relationship in Nawlins could become truly fucked up and abhorrent
[22:41] <TransientPeople2> THAT is how bad he is
[22:41] <Vinay> great
[22:41] <Vinay> thanks for that
[22:41] <Vinay> now he's Sirocco from Zeta Gundam forever
[22:41] <Vinay> (good lord Sirocco is awful)
[22:41] <TransientPeople2> 'what is the worst possible thing we could do to torpedo a reasonably nuanced relationship with some power disparities'
[22:42] <TransientPeople2> 'basically make it Desus/Lilith'
[22:42] <TransientPeople2> Isn't Scirocco meant to be disturbing though
[22:42] <Vinay> Oh GOD yes.
[22:42] <Vinay> But I don't know whether he was intended to make me feel like I needed a shower every time he was on screen.
[22:43] <TransientPeople2> Tomino is a good enough writer that I wanna say yes
[22:43] <TransientPeople2> After all
[22:43] <Vinay> It was mostly actually in subtext in that case, but he came off as 'Newtype Desus'.
[22:43] <TransientPeople2> You have Char doing some pretty questionable things in CCA but he doesn't leave you feeling like that
[22:43] <Vinay> There's a lot of implication you have to take a certain way for that to be so, though.
[22:44] <Vinay> And that's fair. Char mostly bottoms out at 'dude, what the FUCK?!', and that's in the first series.
[22:44] <Vinay> (show up at your friend's house, crash on his couch, lure him into fatal ambush)
[22:44] <Vinay> (this is not proper friend behaviour, char)
[22:44] <TransientPeople2> I was thinking his manipulations of and usage of Quess myself
[22:45] <TransientPeople2> Which is like really ice cold
[22:45] <Vinay> My issue with that is that everything Quess did made me so blindingly furious that I couldn't bring myself to give a fuck about anything anybody did to her.
[22:45] <TransientPeople2> Yep
[22:45] <TransientPeople2> 100% fair cop
[22:45] <TransientPeople2> such a suuuuuper hateable character
[22:46] <Vinay> Which is a shame - Yasuhiko Yoshikazu's comic of the same events add some details that would have gone a LONG way towards salvaging the character.
[22:46] <TransientPeople2> IIRC she's way better in both the novels too
[22:47] <TransientPeople2> Just a case of 'not even an ounce of the needed running time to say everything we wanted to say'
[22:47] <Vinay> Yep.
[22:47] <Vinay> Or worse, needed to say.
[22:47] <TransientPeople2> Mhm
[22:47] <TransientPeople2> But man
[22:47] <TransientPeople2> Scirocco is SO fucked up, in the right ways
[22:47] <Vinay> uuuuugh
[22:47] <TransientPeople2> The way he manipulates Zabiarov, the way he addresses Kamille
[22:48] <TransientPeople2> Shit is so creepy
[22:48] <Vinay> Quite.
[22:48] <TransientPeople2> Makes you feel like he's the root of all evil
[22:48] <Vinay> Very much so.
[22:48] <TransientPeople2> Contrast with Desus who's just this petty wifebeating/abusing/mindbreaking asshole
[22:49] <Vinay> Stop the topic, please, I'd like to get off.
[22:49] <A_Raving_Loon> you can shut up about the thing everyone hates
[22:49] <A_Raving_Loon> it is known
[22:49] <A_Raving_Loon> and nothing will come of it
[22:50] <Plutonis> :V
[22:50] <TransientPeople2> This conversation actually gave me an interesting understanding of what it takes to...frame hate, for lack of a better word
[22:50] <TransientPeople2> So I'm happy with it
[22:50] <TransientPeople2> All a matter of appropriate scale
[22:50] <TransientPeople2> If someone is vile they have to be vile on every level
[22:51] <TransientPeople2> The more you hammer in that somebody does some terrible things in X context, the more you need to show they're just as bad outside, AND a huge danger in general
[22:51] <Hyperax> yeah
[22:51] <Hyperax> doing good evil guys is hard sometimes
[22:53] <TransientPeople2> I don't feel like doing evil is hard
[22:53] <TransientPeople2> It's just that you have to pull no punches
[22:53] <TransientPeople2> And this most emphatically *does not mean* being edgy
[22:53] <Thesaurasaurus> Hi loon
[22:54] <TransientPeople2> Look at the Terminators in the first and second movie
[22:54] <TransientPeople2> They aren't edgy but they're forces of unstoppable evil in our eyes
[22:54] <TransientPeople2> (please tell me you watched those movies Hyperax)
[22:54] <Hyperax> I've watched them.
[22:54] <TransientPeople2> whew
[22:54] <Hyperax> I remember the second one more for some reason
[22:54] <TransientPeople2> But yeah, remember that line?
[22:54] <Hyperax> probably because I've watched it like, 3 times when it went on TV
[22:55] <Hyperax> and uh... which line?
[22:55] <TransientPeople2> "Listen, and understand! That Terminator is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."
[22:55] <Hyperax> ah yeah.
[22:56] <TransientPeople2> Bam. Right there, that sells it instantly if what you've seen before hasn't
[22:56] <Thesaurasaurus> Terminator's a cool franchise, but it's a little tough to use it as a template
[22:56] <Thesaurasaurus> since the whole point of the Terminators themselves is their utter inhumanity
[22:56] <TransientPeople2> The terminator doesn't need to commit unnecessary violence. It doesn't need to invoke sexual fears either. It just needs to be *scary*. To tap into the primal fear of death coming for you, unstoppable and infinite.
[22:57] <Thesaurasaurus> well, I mean
[22:57] <Thesaurasaurus> there's a difference between an effective threat in a horror movie
[22:57] <Thesaurasaurus> and an effective villain in a narrative
[22:57] <TransientPeople2> A villain that makes you feel weak, puny and powerless will always be remembered. Evil is that thing that shakes up our convictions, our trust in the world. That's all.
[22:57] <TransientPeople2> I'm not so sure, Thes
[22:57] <TransientPeople2> I haven't seen too many 'recurring' villains in campaigns
[22:57] <TransientPeople2> But the ones I did
[22:57] <TransientPeople2> absolutely DID have that aura of unstoppability
[22:57] * Rotekian (~Rotekian@synIRC-D8AB0D25.cable.virginm.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
[22:58] <TransientPeople2> Of 'how are we gonna do anything, we can't even fight him'
[22:58] <oldmidgetwillow> wait did new terminators invite sexual fears? that's jacked up
[22:58] <oldmidgetwillow> i mean they are robots
[22:58] <TransientPeople2> No
[22:58] <Vinay> Sure, but Ashes certainly wasn't no horror movie threat.
[22:58] <TransientPeople2> I'm saying
[22:58] <oldmidgetwillow> come on
[22:58] <TransientPeople2> they don't
[22:58] <oldmidgetwillow> oh good
[22:58] <TransientPeople2> They don't need to
[22:58] <Hyperax> I'd like to say I do a good job with villians but I'm not sure.
[22:58] <TransientPeople2> They just need to be utterly unstoppable and alien
[22:58] <Thesaurasaurus> a monster needs to be that
[22:58] <Thesaurasaurus> a villain needs motivation
[22:58] <TransientPeople2> Does he?
[22:59] <EchoCian> Yes
[22:59] <TransientPeople2> You don't need the backstory of Anton Chighur, for instance
[22:59] <Hyperax> yeah he does
[22:59] <Vinay> I'm with Thes on this. A villain differs from a monster in that he has to want something.
[22:59] <TransientPeople2> He has a job to do, he's coming for ya
[22:59] <TransientPeople2> Essentially, I think a villain needs motivation, possibly
[22:59] <Thesaurasaurus> honestly, Chighur is really more of a monster that just happens to be a human!
[22:59] <TransientPeople2> but not until the finale
[22:59] <EchoCian> Backstory is not entirely synonymous with motivation
[22:59] <Hyperax> ^
[22:59] <Vinay> The T-1000 didn't seem to particularly want Sarah or her kid dead, it's just a thing that it did.
[22:59] <TransientPeople2> Same for Darth Vader
[23:00] <EchoCian> They want something
[23:00] <TransientPeople2> (unless you wanna say Vader is a monster too)
[23:00] <Vinay> Vader very clearly wanted several things.
[23:00] <TransientPeople2> (in which case, I'd contend most good villains are monsters!)
[23:00] <EchoCian> That's motivTion
[23:01] <Vinay> And he wanted them at a number of points before the finale.
[23:01] <EchoCian> You don't need to get into how their mother abused them and they got bullied in school
[23:01] <TransientPeople2> He did, yes
[23:01] <TransientPeople2> But he also had that air of untouchability
[23:01] <Thesaurasaurus> Chighur's monstrous, inhuman 'ethos' was emblematic of the monstrous, inhuman callousness of the world
[23:01] <EchoCian> They want something and the hero is opposed
[23:01] <Thesaurasaurus> of life
[23:01] <Thesaurasaurus> in the end, Chighur himself was quite hollow as any kind of person
[23:01] <EchoCian> That is motivation
[23:02] <TransientPeople2> And I think, overall, a villain that is memorable needs that
[23:02] <TransientPeople2> The motivation is needed if you want to 'stick the landing' as it were
[23:02] <Thesaurasaurus> and his final 'tragedy', as such, was being forced to recognize that
[23:02] <Thesaurasaurus> but unable to change it
[23:02] <TransientPeople2> 'The coin ain't got no say'
[23:02] <Thesaurasaurus> he got the money
[23:02] <Thesaurasaurus> but so what
[23:02] <TransientPeople2> I wouldn't say it was a tragedy so much as a defeat
[23:02] <Thesaurasaurus> what the hell is he gonna do with it
[23:02] <TransientPeople2> Because Carla Jean effectively strips his plot armor
[23:02] <Vinay> Eeeh - I think Vader wasn't really untouchable. He was huge, sure, but he could be disabled, he could be fought.
[23:02] <TransientPeople2> In eps 1 and 2?
[23:02] <Vinay> *I don't think Vader was really untouchable
[23:02] <TransientPeople2> Err 4 and 5
[23:03] <TransientPeople2> You get what I mean
[23:03] <Thesaurasaurus> he has zero hobbies or interests outside of murdering people[23:03] <Vinay> Sure! He gets his engine blown out during the New Hope Death Star trench run, and Luke at least puts up a decent fight in Empire.
[23:03] <TransientPeople2> Because the only point where anybody does shit to him in those is when Han suckerpunches his TIE fighter
[23:03] <TransientPeople2> Everything else just bounces off him
[23:03] <TransientPeople2> You come at him up front, you lose
[23:03] <Vinay> Luke's outclassed 'cuz he didn't finish his training, not because Vader's unstoppable.
[23:03] <EchoCian> Being an unstoppable force isn't required to be a violation, but it can help if that is the character you want
[23:03] <TransientPeople2> Literally! Han shoots him from the front and it does nothing
[23:04] <TransientPeople2> A violation huh
[23:04] <EchoCian> Villain *
[23:04] <Thesaurasaurus> that's because George Lucas was doing a conscious paint-by-numbers of the Hero's Journey
[23:04] <TransientPeople2> that autocorrect
[23:04] <EchoCian> But a motive is
[23:04] <TransientPeople2> I think it's necessary, Echo
[23:04] <Thesaurasaurus> in which the villain is necessarily unbeatable until the very end
[23:04] <TransientPeople2> For as long as you want the villain to be irredeemable, he must be unstoppable
[23:04] <TransientPeople2> (Short of some magnificent sacrifice or moment of transcendence)
[23:05] <TransientPeople2> Because a relatable villain is...really, just an antagonist tbqh
[23:05] <EchoCian> For some narratives
[23:05] <Hyperax> I tend to like redeemable bad guys >.>
[23:05] <Vinay> Part 1 Dio? Pretty irredeemable, even if you do see where he came from.
[23:05] <Vinay> Clear desires.
[23:05] <Thesaurasaurus> teep have you ever followed Fist of the North Star
[23:05] <Vinay> oh yeah that
[23:05] <Vinay> sup souther
[23:05] <EchoCian> Then i guess I'm not interested in violations as much as antagonists
[23:06] <TransientPeople2> Honestly I can't really recall a properly written story that had a pathetic villain
[23:06] <Thesaurasaurus> well, Souther, yeah
[23:06] <Vinay> your autocorrect really hates you, Echo.
[23:06] <TransientPeople2> Dark Tower tried but it became real obvious
[23:06] <TransientPeople2> Because the Crimson King got hyped up for so long only to get a bait n switch at the end
[23:06] <Thesaurasaurus> but I meant more that it was very influential on later manga/anime
[23:06] <TransientPeople2> And yes I have thes
[23:06] <EchoCian> There is a wide margin between pathetic and unstoppable
[23:06] <TransientPeople2> Is there, Echo?
[23:06] <Thesaurasaurus> in that even the worst villains usually have some redeeming traits
[23:07] <Thesaurasaurus> but they are still villains and you are still gonna have to fight them
[23:07] <Hyperax> there really is a large margin
[23:07] <TransientPeople2> I honestly cannot recall a *villain* that was memorable and frail
[23:07] <EchoCian> Slide really doesn't like some words
[23:07] <Vinay> Mr. Glass.
[23:07] <TransientPeople2> Who?
[23:07] <Thesaurasaurus> e, f;b
[23:07] <Vinay> hahaha
[23:07] <EchoCian> Then read more
[23:07] <TransientPeople2> See
[23:07] <TransientPeople2> Those snarky responses, you know
[23:07] <TransientPeople2> Those make you a cunt
[23:07] <TransientPeople2> because not only is it arrogant
[23:07] <TransientPeople2> but also *worthless*
[23:07] <EchoCian> It isn't snark
[23:07] <TransientPeople2> You are not adding shit to the discussion
[23:08] <Vinay> Uh, if I said it would be a spoiler and I really like the movie Mr. Glass is from.
[23:08] <TransientPeople2> You are just being pointlessly confrontational, not even pursuing your own enlightenment
[23:08] <EchoCian> Misogynist insults now
[23:08] <Vinay> Yeah, Teep.
[23:08] <EchoCian> Classy
[23:08] <Hyperax> can we not yell at each other?
[23:08] <Hyperax> that just ends badly
[23:08] <TransientPeople2> What misogynist insults?
[23:08] <Vinay> 'cunt' is probably not an appropriate appellation for anybody in this chat.
[23:08] <TransientPeople2> What can I say
[23:08] <Vinay> I mean, it's really, really inappropriate.
[23:08] <Thesaurasaurus> dude don't
[23:08] <EchoCian> Haha fuck you dude
[23:08] <TransientPeople2> I have a very short fuse for people who try to get snide potshots in
[23:08] <TransientPeople2> You wanna talk, I will always talk
[23:08] <Hyperax> and I'd prefer to keep my decent opinion of most people here.
[23:09] <TransientPeople2> If all you wanna do is snark, shaddap
[23:09] <Vinay> Teep, you're kind of being an asshole here. There is a difference between 'Echo's response is justified' and 'dude that word isn't cool' and I'm getting at the latter.
[23:09] <EchoCian> Maybe if you want to talk, learn what words mean
[23:09] <Vinay> (i have no point to make on the former)
[23:10] <TransientPeople2> Would you prefer it if I said 'those snarky responses make you an insufferable, worthless conversationalist'
[23:10] <Vinay> YES.
[23:10] <TransientPeople2> Because it's basically what I'm getting at here
[23:10] <Vinay> Good.
[23:10] <EchoCian> Instead of reducing me to a vagina because you're kind of annoyed about a dumb internet debate
[23:10] <Hyperax> TransientPeople2, can you calm down? and honestly that'd be better than calling people cunts
[23:11] <TransientPeople2> ...You're kind of projecting a hilarious amount, you know
[23:11] <Vinay> The epithet is offensive enough that it will get and has gotten in the way of making your point.
[23:11] <TransientPeople2> I can equally call a dude a cunt if he takes that tude
[23:11] <EchoCian> Where you are apparently doing a poor job of expressing your definitions of villain vs antagonist vs monster
[23:11] <TransientPeople2> The point is expressing very clearly, in absolutely no uncertain terms, just how displeased I am with you
[23:11] <EchoCian> Being unaware of the meaning of an insult does not remove the resposibility of using it
[23:11] <TransientPeople2> uh huh
[23:12] <EchoCian> So calling me a cunt when I tell you to view more media to expand your views of villains, or else define what you mean, is a bit out of place, and if you get that mad over this maybe you should look into anger management.
[23:12] <TransientPeople2> It's over everything, really
[23:12] <TransientPeople2> You have this persistent
[23:12] <TransientPeople2> Extremely noticeable
[23:12] <EchoCian> I have no reason to engage now because looooool
[23:13] <TransientPeople2> *supremely* unhelpful character flaw
[23:13] <TransientPeople2> Where you demand that the other person up their level of knowledge, awareness, whatever
[23:13] <TransientPeople2> And then snide it up and don't help
[23:13] <TransientPeople2> Essentially, taking the high ground without actually bothering to extend a hand to the other person to get there.
[23:14] <TransientPeople2> As a guy who actively tries to make discussions even by being as frank as I can, this irks me. It is incredibly poor communication
[23:14] <TransientPeople2> Like
[23:14] <TransientPeople2> Literally poorer than not saying a thing
[23:14] <TransientPeople2> It is the definition of 'negative value' in a comment.
[23:15] <EchoCian> Then define what you mean by villain vs antagonist vs monster because it seems apparent by chat reactions that you are not on the same page as the rest of us. .
[23:15] <TransientPeople2> And I cannot emphasize enough how little it works out in your favor, Echo
[23:15] <TransientPeople2> Pfft, that's esay
[23:15] <TransientPeople2> Easy even
[23:15] <TransientPeople2> A monster is a force of nature. A threat that must be dealt with, purely by means of skill or force
[23:16] <TransientPeople2> An expression of our fears of our environment, in other words - it could be a big shark or a terminator, but it's not human and cannot be addressed, only stopped or killed
[23:16] <Vinay> Then: a villain?
[23:17] <TransientPeople2> A villain is a humane threat, with a motivation and (at least partially) understandable motives, but with no or little relatability. The man who had a super bad day and became a raving lunatic, or who's trying to kill your daughter to steal his own from the devil, is a villain
[23:17] <TransientPeople2> You're supposed to HATE the villain
[23:17] <TransientPeople2> They represent everything bad in the human condition, in some way
[23:17] <TransientPeople2> greed, malice, anger
[23:18] <TransientPeople2> The idea is to get you to shun them, symbolically shunning your own moral failings
[23:18] <TransientPeople2> A good example would be Angel Eyes from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly - we see him flinch at times, he's human, he wants the money, but he's a terrifying killer
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[23:19] <TransientPeople2> And an antagonist is simply someone who wants something that is at cross purposes with the protagonist - someone you're fighting against, but can't really bring yourself to hate. Maybe dislike because they fucked you over
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