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#starbound - July 14/15, 2012 - kyren on modding

Ordona Jul 15th, 2012 3,357 Never
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  1. [23:54] <+kyren> I'm absolutely pro modding, and I'd like to have an API at release or very close
  2. [23:54] <+kyren> data modding will be incredibly easy
  3. [23:54] <+kyren> but data modding isn't everything
  4. [23:54] <@Seria-Myouna> Eh, the goddes speaketh!
  5. [23:54] <@Seria-Myouna> s*
  6. [23:54] <@Ordona> Nice quote-finding Seria ;)
  7. [23:55] <@Seria-Myouna> Shoosh, I was rooting through mah crap!
  8. [23:55] <+kyren> but I'm 100% sure that at the release of the API, people will find stuff they'd like to do that they can't
  9. [23:55] <+kyren> which is why I fully expect the API to be, you know, a process
  10. [23:55] <@Seria-Myouna> MoJad, if you went to go get a sammich, lookit this^
  11. [23:55] <+kyren> so, you guys might have to be a TEENSY bit patient
  12. [23:55] <jevoneastham> i love processes
  13. [23:55] <+kyren> also, I wouldn't expect a whole lot of backwards compatibility at the beginning ;/
  14. [23:56] <@Seria-Myouna> Features being added, changed, etc.
  15. [23:56] <+kyren> very much so
  16. [23:56] <MoJad> Well
  17. [23:56] <MoJad> I can handle waiting
  18. [23:56] <Gabranth123> I want to turn Starbound into Skyrim.
  19. [23:56] <MoJad> Biting my nails because of said waiting is another problem entirely.
  20. [23:56] <@Seria-Myouna> Fus Rho Da!
  21. [23:56] <@Marketh> this is truely the best thing on imgur
  22. [23:56] <@Marketh> http://imgur.com/gallery/ZF31i
  23. [23:57] <@Seria-Myouna> XD
  24. [23:57] <Gabranth123> yes.
  25. [23:57] <Gabranth123> yes that is awesome.
  26. [23:57] <@Seria-Myouna> I used to work at a coffe shop, so yes.
  27. [23:57] <@Seria-Myouna> ee*
  28. [23:57] <+kyren> haha, a modding API to the level of bethesda would be AMAZING
  29. [23:57] <Nimrod> Marketh: That's nice.
  30. [23:57] <Jattt> i think coffee bending falls under water bending
  31. [23:57] <Gabranth123> I'm intentionally developin a coffee addiction, so yes.
  32. [23:57] <Jattt> like blood bending
  33. [23:57] <+kyren> I hope to get close to that
  34. [23:57] <@Seria-Myouna> Meeeeh~
  35. [23:57] <@Marketh> Jattt, it would
  36. [23:57] <@Seria-Myouna> You can do it, Ky!
  37. [23:57] <MoJad> I bet the coffee in that shop tastes better than anything Starbucks makes
  38. [23:57] <Jattt> blood bending is awesome
  39. [23:58] <@Seria-Myouna> Starbucks is CARP.
  40. [23:58] <@Marketh> the modding tools for Oblivion and Skyrim are great
  41. [23:58] <Gabranth123> so, both coffee and hatred is what drives me.
  42. [23:58] <SamuraiSkye> There were plans to have the server able to push mod data down to the client, right?
  43. [23:58] <Gabranth123> if anyone gets that.
  44. [23:58]  * MoJad brofists Seria
  45. [23:58]  * Seria-Myouna "bro" fists back
  46. [23:58] <Jattt> i dont know what starbucks regular coffee is like but their iced coffee is actually pretty good its just overpriced
  47. [23:58] <MoJad> Marketh: Actually... I disagree.
  48. [23:58] <@Ordona> SamuraiSkye: I believe that's what Tiy said the other day, via "modules" or something
  49. [23:58] <Eta> Would the server have to have a good upload speed?
  50. [23:58] <+kyren> yeah, we'd like the server to push modding data at some point
  51. [23:58] <Gabranth123> I've lately decided to give up my venti pike and instead buy tall americano, which is espresso.
  52. [23:58] <@Seria-Myouna> Well, mod data would probably be mostly words at first.
  53. [23:58] == intradox [~intradox@adsl-74-190-42-178.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  54. [23:59] <Jattt> kyren do you mean like mods that download to you when you connect to the server?
  55. [23:59] <Jattt> because hthat would be great
  56. [23:59] <@Seria-Myouna> Plus, little pixel images aren't hard to transfer.
  57. [23:59] <+kyren> yeah, eventually I'd like that
  58. [23:59] <Jattt> cool
  59. [23:59] <Jattt> good plan
  60. [23:59] <+kyren> mods would be very small
  61. [23:59] <MoJad> Marketh: The deeper ends are cryptic, sure, but the Creation Kit for Skyrim is more restrictive than I thoguht it would be.
  62. [23:59] <+kyren> the whole game is not that big
  63. [23:59] <Jattt> i assume the mods downloaded from a mp server would also be more restricted in their actions than ones downloadable separately?
  64. [23:59] <@Seria-Myouna> It makes K.krieger look like a Zip Disk!
  65. [23:59] <SamuraiSkye> From the point of view of someone whos messed around with Terraria and Minecraft server hosting before, that really makes my life easier, that to use a server mod I dont have to tell everyone. "Hey go install this silly launcher and all these client side mods so we can do this"
  66. [23:59] <MoJad> Marketh: Some basic features are even hidden from plain sight or is hardcoded, never to be touched and ravaged
  67. [23:59] <@Seria-Myouna> xD
  68. [00:00] <+kyren> but, modding is not easy, the key here is I'm all for modding, but a very fleshed out modding API will take time and a lot of feedback
  69. [00:00] <+kyren> also
  70. [00:00] <+kyren> you will, rounding down
  71. [00:00] <+kyren> have absolutely no way to do "unofficial modding"
  72. [00:00] <@Marketh> MoJad, and yet look at all the things people manage to pull off creating
  73. [00:00] <Blaust> Hopefully, the game will be so good that mods will not be nessasary! :P
  74. [00:00] <+kyren> that isn't data
  75. [00:00] <Jattt> because it seems like if the mods downloaded from mp servers are full-permissioned it would allow a lot of abuse
  76. [00:00] <+kyren> which is part of the reason I want modding support so much
  77. [00:00] <@Seria-Myouna> People will always want mods.
  78. [00:00] <MoJad> Marketh: That's actually not saying much as of right now
  79. [00:01] <Eta> So nmodding the framework stuff?
  80. [00:01] <Eta> no*
  81. [00:01] <@Seria-Myouna> A game without mods is like Tribes: Vengeance vs. Tribes 2
  82. [00:01] <MoJad> Marketh: A huge bulk of the mods are either player homes or equipment mods.
  83. [00:01] <@Ordona> People need to mod in their nyan cats and stuff
  84. [00:01] <@Ordona> Regardless of game
  85. [00:01] <@Seria-Myouna> Nyancatopusthulu.
  86. [00:01] <@Seria-Myouna> Eye of:
  87. [00:01] <Katsua> lol
  88. [00:01] <jevoneastham> A game without mods is what I am used to
  89. [00:01] <Blaust> Posted the poll about changing up the faces of characters
  90. [00:01] <Blaust> http://community.playstarbound.com/index.php?threads/character-faces.8127/
  91. [00:01] <Jattt> i mean like malicious mods just downed to someones client without them realizing whats happening (and just asking them to give the server permission to download the mod to them isnt enough because most people will just say yes to everything anyway)
  92. [00:01] <@Marketh> MoJad, I have seen lots of mods add new animations for kills, or add new locations (large exterior areas that is), and change the way magic works
  93. [00:01] <+kyren> oh absolutely Jatt
  94. [00:02] <MoJad> Marketh: There's one mod that allows for spellcasting on horseback, but there's only one of its kind, and the fact of the matter is that you need SKSE for it to happen. And the end-result is still quite buggy and incomplete. And the modder is nowhere to be seen.
  95. [00:02] <+kyren> there would be VERY LARGE buttons and text you'd have to read to allow a server to place mods on your system
  96. [00:02] <+kyren> in the case of downloading code
  97. [00:02] <Jattt> kyren oh ok
  98. [00:02] <+kyren> it would probably have to be out of the game, like as inconvenient as we can make it for people that don't know what that means
  99. [00:02] <+kyren> I'm really really iffy about downloading code without like
  100. [00:02] <+kyren> making people sign forms and stuff
  101. [00:02] <MoJad> Marketh: That's all possible because the CK has those options provided for modders to use
  102. [00:03] <+kyren> not to inconvenience people, it's just
  103. [00:03] <MoJad> I'm talking about the truly hidden stuff like brand new weapon types and animations
  104. [00:03] <Eta> Well, if you're playing on a public server
  105. [00:03] <+kyren> 95% of people don't know what that means to a system
  106. [00:03] <@Ordona> Kind of like "This server wants to download X mod, which will allow it to do Y and Z" window pop-ups, kyren?
  107. [00:03] <@Marketh> "and animations", but they've already added animations as part of mods?
  108. [00:03] <+kyren> yes, except the words
  109. [00:03] <Jattt> i mean most people will just say yes to everything anyway, not realizing the danger, but its still their responsibility and i consider the risk to those people worth the flexibillity of having the mods be able to not be limited
  110. [00:03] <SamuraiSkye> I think for Client side pushes, they wouldnt need total client access.  Just data for animations, graphics, certainly a way to display data on the UI.
  111. [00:04] <@Marketh> kyren, make it like the Neverwinter Nights games did it
  112. [00:04] <@Marketh> Download all content from the server if you are missing them
  113. [00:04] <+kyren> "This server wants to provide mod named X, which includes a dll, which is an enormous security risk please download at your own risk this mod could wipe your hard drive and kill your cat you have been warned!"
  114. [00:04] <Jattt> haha yes
  115. [00:04] <Eta> kill your cat?
  116. [00:04] <@Seria-Myouna> You could put a timer on the yes button.
  117. [00:04] <@Ordona> Not the cat D:
  118. [00:04] <Tarlach> Night all.
  119. [00:04] <@Ordona> Night Tarlach
  120. [00:04] <@Seria-Myouna> Like those silly download things.
  121. [00:04] <blacksmithgu> Night Tarlach.
  122. [00:04] <@Marketh> I loved the way nvn handled modded levels and stuff for servers
  123. [00:04] <@Seria-Myouna> So they HAVE to look at the msg box.
  124. [00:04] == Tarlach [~Tarlach@c-98-208-236-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
  125. [00:04] <@Marketh> nwn*
  126. [00:04] <+kyren> it doesn't work for browser >_>
  127. [00:05] <Eta> Would you have to do that for every mod downloaded?
  128. [00:05] <Eta> or just once
  129. [00:05] <@Seria-Myouna> Ah.
  130. [00:05] <MoJad> Marketh: The animation mods I've seen are merely replacements
  131. [00:05] <+kyren> well, if you've already downloaded it
  132. [00:05] <Eta> or have a click to never show again?
  133. [00:05] <+kyren> then no
  134. [00:05] <@Marketh> MoJad, the one I saw added new kill animations
  135. [00:05] <@Marketh> Note added, not replaced
  136. [00:05] <+kyren> I dunno, it requires a lot of thinking about
  137. [00:05] <@Marketh> All the previous ones were still there as far as I'm aware (or at least, I still saw the old ones while playing, aswell as the new ones)
  138. [00:05] <MoJad> Marketh: But they're for existing weapon types
  139. [00:05] <Jattt> kyren: maybe also have mods marked "safe" for download from mp servers if they dont make use of any functions that could be used maliciously on the users system? it would make it easier to decide whether to allow a mod or not for many people
  140. [00:05] <+kyren> not having automatic downloads would mean that people would be safer, and make it more difficult for them to shoot themselves in the foot, but it would be less convenient
  141. [00:06] <Eta> Well, I still hope for that system, I'll be only playnig with my friends anyways
  142. [00:06] <+kyren> a safe mod would be (and this is arguable) just data
  143. [00:06] <Jattt> wait what form are the mods in?
  144. [00:06] <Jattt> you said dlls
  145. [00:06] <Jattt> are they really going to be like
  146. [00:06] <Jattt> just arbitrary code?
  147. [00:07] <Eta> i think there's a program
  148. [00:07] <+kyren> I mean, possibly yes
  149. [00:07] <blacksmithgu> kyren: You could always have a forum section devoted to mods, split into "Confirmed" and "Unconfirmed/In Development." Sorting through it would be real annoying though.
  150. [00:07] == Siveon [48e26c45@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.226.108.69] has joined #starbound
  151. [00:07] <Jattt> oh ok
  152. [00:07] <+kyren> ofc there's a lot you can do with data only mods
  153. [00:07] <+kyren> but, we don't use a scripting language internally
  154. [00:07] <+kyren> but remember
  155. [00:07] <Eta> oh right...
  156. [00:07] <Siveon> Hello.
  157. [00:07] <+kyren> adding some general purpose scripting language is not "a fix"
  158. [00:07] <Jattt> still i think marking safe data only mods as "safe" or somehting would still be helpful, or somehow otherwise telling the user when youre sure a mod is safe
  159. [00:07] <blacksmithgu> Hello again Siveon.
  160. [00:08] <+kyren> because
  161. [00:08] <+kyren> properly sandboxing a scripting language is.. not easy!
  162. [00:08] <SamuraiSkye> Is pushing UI data down to a client possible with a data only mod?  Like if you wanted to display a custom "Awesome" bar or XP bar from a mod?
  163. [00:08] <Eta> Can't you do it the way TF2 and Steam does it?
  164. [00:08] <Jattt> if the mods for this will even have any way of being sure theyre safe (since it still seems kind of uncertain what form mods will take?)
  165. [00:08] <Jattt> haha yeah
  166. [00:08] <Jattt> sandboxing is kind of hard
  167. [00:08] == HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  168. [00:08] <Jattt> and creating a (safe) scripting language is also hard
  169. [00:08] <Jattt> sometimes
  170. [00:09] <Jattt> safe and good anyway
  171. [00:09] <+kyren> yes, very
  172. [00:09] <blacksmithgu> Taking a scripting language like Lua and then giving it a new environment is certainly difficult.
  173. [00:09] <+kyren> the security implications of even something like lua are enormous
  174. [00:09] <Siveon> Coding talk. Welp.
  175. [00:09] <blacksmithgu> Sorry Siveon :P
  176. [00:10] <+kyren> is it easy to even provide a "really honestly secure" lua environment?
  177. [00:10] <+kyren> I mean
  178. [00:10] <blacksmithgu> No.
  179. [00:10] <SamuraiSkye> WoW managed to do it.
  180. [00:10] <Eta> sorta
  181. [00:10] <Eta> people will still find a way though
  182. [00:10] <blacksmithgu> WoW lua is really, really constricted. That won't do in a sandbox environment,
  183. [00:10] <Jattt> isnt wows scripting kind of a comlpetely differnet thing
  184. [00:10] <+kyren> did they do it, or are they just not an attack vector
  185. [00:10] <SamuraiSkye> Yeah, exactly Blacksmith
  186. [00:10] <Eta> they will ALWAYS find the way, given proper motivation
  187. [00:10] == HaltingState [~HaltingSt@cpe-76-169-228-195.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #starbound
  188. [00:10] == HaltingState [~HaltingSt@cpe-76-169-228-195.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host]
  189. [00:10] == HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has joined #starbound
  190. [00:10] <+kyren> er, a target
  191. [00:10] <+kyren> I mean
  192. [00:10] <Jattt> i thought wows scripting was just UI stuff
  193. [00:11] <+kyren> *java* can't get it right
  194. [00:11] <blacksmithgu> It is.
  195. [00:11] == Starship [b18e7a50@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.142.122.80] has joined #starbound
  196. [00:11] <Jattt> lol java
  197. [00:11] <@Seria-Myouna> What about garry's mod? Doesn't that use LUA?
  198. [00:11] == idk [3262be81@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.98.190.129] has joined #starbound
  199. [00:11] <blacksmithgu> Garry's Mod LUA has the potential to real screw with your game and is somewhat buggy.
  200. [00:11] <+kyren> anyway, if we did support a scripting language, it would 99% be lua
  201. [00:11] <Jattt> i didnt think garrys mod downloads lua scripts to a users system?
  202. [00:11] <Siveon> I must be blessed by the gods to understand this.
  203. [00:11] == Opirian has changed nick to Opi|DayZ
  204. [00:11] == idk has changed nick to Guest75976
  205. [00:11] <blacksmithgu> Lol @Siveon.
  206. [00:11] <SamuraiSkye> WoW's LUA is just UI stuff, yeah.  But the client side LUA cant touch the OS stuff, or important game functions.
  207. [00:11] <+kyren> yeah, this is all about *automatically downloading stuff and running it*
  208. [00:11] <@Seria-Myouna> I see.
  209. [00:11] <+kyren> it's not about providing it
  210. [00:11] <Guest75976> hello
  211. [00:12] <@Seria-Myouna> Hello Guest75976
  212. [00:12] <Siveon> Sup' guest.
  213. [00:12] <Guest75976> nm
  214. [00:12] <Guest75976> wbu
  215. [00:12] <+kyren> even with lua, I'm quite uncomfortable about automatically doing things
  216. [00:12] <@Seria-Myouna> ?
  217. [00:12] <Siveon> Gah, internet speak.
  218. [00:12] <Siveon> Begone demon.
  219. [00:12] <@Seria-Myouna> Ah, what about you*
  220. [00:12] <Siveon> Ah.
  221. [00:12] <@Seria-Myouna> I'm doing fine.
  222. [00:12] <Siveon> Sorry, I am also fine.
  223. [00:12] <SamuraiSkye> Im just happy with being able to easily push Numbers and images and such into a clients UI from server.  That would open some great doors that are normally all dependant on a ton of client mods that rip the game apart.  (For other games anyways)
  224. [00:13] <@Marketh> ahahaha best quote
  225. [00:13] <@Seria-Myouna> You could umm..
  226. [00:13] <Guest75976> ok well what is the point of the chat on this website anyways?...
  227. [00:13] <@Marketh> "history isn't written by the victor any more. It's written by the Wikipedia vandals"
  228. [00:13] <+kyren> anyway, even without automatic downloading, modding will still be easy and possible, and we'll have a way of managing the mods on a system in a sane way, with folders and stuff and in game notices, and it'll generally be a billion times better than unsupported modding
  229. [00:13] <@Seria-Myouna> Say: "only trust content from verified servers running um...
  230. [00:13] <@Seria-Myouna> Oh HEY
  231. [00:13] <+kyren> sorry, can't speak atm
  232. [00:13] <SamuraiSkye> Having supported modding is much better for the mod writers too.
  233. [00:13] <+kyren> like, you'll see lists of mods in game
  234. [00:13] <@Seria-Myouna> Great idea, have the game download a list of current popular mods and how many users upvoted it.
  235. [00:13] <Blaust> Speaking of Wikipedia
  236. [00:14] == Castro [62ed612e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.237.97.46] has joined #starbound
  237. [00:14] <Eta> So the mods would have to be approved?
  238. [00:14] <@Seria-Myouna> That way you can tell legit mods.
  239. [00:14] <Guest75976> ... this chat is too random for me to understand...
  240. [00:14] <SamuraiSkye> If anyones looked into Modding in Minecraft, you know what i mean here.
  241. [00:14] <Blaust> I was suprised that Starbound had an article
  242. [00:14] <+kyren> and they won't be loaded if they aren't compatible, etc
  243. [00:14] <Castro> Castro here
  244. [00:14] <blacksmithgu> Hello Castro.
  245. [00:14] == Guest75976 [3262be81@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.98.190.129] has quit [Client Quit]
  246. [00:14] <Siveon> Why are you so mean to Cuba?
  247. [00:14] <Castro> Hello blacksmithgu
  248. [00:14] <Eta> the legit mods have a way to prove themselves
  249. [00:14] <@Seria-Myouna> I see.
  250. [00:14] <+kyren> a lot of this discussion requires some way of marking mods / servers as supported, which requires a whole like, registry of things
  251. [00:14] <Castro> Cuba blows.
  252. [00:14] <+kyren> which we haven't even talked about what form that would take
  253. [00:15] <Siveon> Huh.
  254. [00:15] <+kyren> I agree that it's important, but making mods possible will come first, ofc
  255. [00:15] <@Seria-Myouna> Well, yeah, it's kinda secondary to making the game.
  256. [00:15] <@Seria-Myouna> xD
  257. [00:15] <Eta> i really dont bother with mods
  258. [00:15] == Starship [b18e7a50@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.142.122.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
  259. [00:15] <@Seria-Myouna> Gotta have something to base the mods on.
  260. [00:15] <blacksmithgu> kyren: Overall on modding, I agree that you should make it possible, but maybe only give certain trusted users rights to mod or something while you remove security flaws?
  261. [00:15] <Siveon> I get it! This is about mods.
  262. [00:15] <blacksmithgu> Congratulations, Siveon!
  263. [00:15] <Eta> cause you guys are going to be constantly updating the gam anyways
  264. [00:16] <@Seria-Myouna> Could have like... Beta Modders, xD
  265. [00:16] <@Ordona> Siveon: Yes.
  266. [00:16] <+kyren> we haven't even decided that there will be central user accounts
  267. [00:16] <+kyren> and also
  268. [00:16] <+kyren> it's not about removing security flaws so much as
  269. [00:16] <+kyren> is that even *possible* to do
  270. [00:16] <Blaust> Heh, the Starbound Wikipedia article contradicts itself. it says the game will release end of summer, then says it will be released somtime the end of this year
  271. [00:16] <+kyren> it's very very very hard to lock down very general languages
  272. [00:16] <@Seria-Myouna> People edit wiki articles and forget to undo old stuff?
  273. [00:16] <Eta> why not using high level languages?
  274. [00:17] <@Seria-Myouna> How strange.
  275. [00:17] <@Ordona> Blaust: I think it was waiting for an official source to list as end of the year
  276. [00:17] <blacksmithgu> You can always greatly restrict the lua environment should you choose to go that way, and then expand on it as you can.
  277. [00:17] <+kyren> that's what I mean, I'm talking about lua, for example
  278. [00:17] <blacksmithgu> If you plan on using DLLs created from high-level languages, that's a hard thing to lock down on.
  279. [00:17] <Blaust> yes, because the source that says the end of summer is a good source
  280. [00:17] <Eta> well i dont know about dlls
  281. [00:17] <Siveon> I don't know about anything right now.
  282. [00:18] <@Seria-Myouna> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic-link_library
  283. [00:18] <+kyren> well, okay, lua supports sandboxing
  284. [00:18] <Eta> i know hwat they are, im just not sure if they're the best choice
  285. [00:18] <+kyren> it's tricky, but
  286. [00:18] <@Seria-Myouna> You can do it!
  287. [00:18] <@Seria-Myouna> ...if anyone can
  288. [00:18] <+kyren> it's not a matter of just choosing something
  289. [00:18] <Eta> Bah, it'll be ready when its ready
  290. [00:18] <SamuraiSkye> Ill still love you even if the Mod API isnt there on release
  291. [00:19] <+kyren> it's a slider of more work / better to less work / sooner
  292. [00:19] <Eta> meanwhile the game is of upmost importance
  293. [00:19] <SamuraiSkye> Honestly, Ill be playing the game straight for like a month, modding can come after im done with that lol
  294. [00:19] == krsbuilt [97d5d695@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.213.214.149] has joined #starbound
  295. [00:19] <@Seria-Myouna> I'd prefer a more stable modding API personally.
  296. [00:19] <+kyren> a stable modding API will take time
  297. [00:19] <@Seria-Myouna> That way people can really wrangle with it.
  298. [00:19] <blacksmithgu> I personally suggest you focus on maximising your gameplay so you have a stable game to build your modding API off of.
  299. [00:20] <+kyren> I'd rather, at least for the beginning, that it be somewhat controlled chaos until it becomes not a pain tow ork with
  300. [00:20] <@Seria-Myouna> Probably not a bad idea.
  301. [00:20] <Siveon> Well if the game is gonna be updated, shouldn't modding come later on?
  302. [00:20] <@Seria-Myouna> Skyrim didn't release their modding thing until way later
  303. [00:20] <Eta> they want to release it as soon as possible, for better feedback
  304. [00:21] <Eta> and a faster stable mod
  305. [00:21] <Eta> maybe it should be limited for a while
  306. [00:21] <SamuraiSkye> I think if you design with modding in mind and lay down a good groundwork, the exposed API and client mod list stuff can come later on.
  307. [00:21] <@Ordona> Even if the "API" released at release time is just data mods, or something with a "This api could explode" warning, that'd probably be fine
  308. [00:21] <@Seria-Myouna> xD
  309. [00:21] <@Seria-Myouna> "This API could kill you. Please use caution"
  310. [00:22] <jevoneastham> i'm content with just starbound being out
  311. [00:22] <SamuraiSkye> "This API could cause mind explosions, Youve been warned"
  312. [00:22] == jojo_ [3283f15a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.131.241.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
  313. [00:18] <Eta> there could be a "beta" for the modding
  314. [00:18] <@Seria-Myouna> S'what I said!
  315. [00:18] <Siveon> "This API could summon a Space Demon and destroy the universe"
  316. [00:18] <+kyren> that's pretty much what it'll be at first
  317. [00:18] <Eta> where there's constant feedback
  318. [00:19] <+kyren> when this game releases
  319. [00:19] <@Seria-Myouna> If people were qualified for it, then they'd provide valuable feedback
  320. [00:19] <+kyren> I expect to, after rounding
  321. [00:19] <+kyren> be doing the exact same amount of work that I'm doing pre-release
  322. [00:19] <+kyren> release doesn't mean stop :)
  323. [00:19] <@Seria-Myouna> as opposed to: "Wai don't this modding thingamajigger get me no space wales?"
  324. [00:20] <Eta> release = more debugging/patches
  325. [00:20] <blacksmithgu> No sleep for you, kyren.
  326. [00:20] <krsbuilt> Are you going to take the "Minecraft" approach to development
  327. [00:20] <Eta> hard work ahead :(
  328. [00:20] <@Seria-Myouna> No soup for you.
  329. [00:20] <Siveon> Oh lord no.
  330. [00:20] <@Seria-Myouna> XD
  331. [00:20] <@Ordona> "Release game, re-create game"
  332. [00:20] <Eta> basically
  333. [00:20] <@Seria-Myouna> Our API will change every single release...
  334. [00:20] <@Seria-Myouna> Don't worry about it though.
  335. [00:20] <+kyren> until recently there was no API
  336. [00:20] <blacksmithgu> Minecraft is FINALLY providing a somewhat more user-friendly modding interface through their insane code-freeze.
  337. [00:20] == Sirgumgum [7ca8db12@gateway/web/freenode/ip.124.168.219.18] has joined #starbound
  338. [00:21] <+kyren> is there an API now even?
  339. [00:21] <+kyren> I haven't been following
  340. [00:21] <@Ordona> Still under construction, I think?
  341. [00:21] <blacksmithgu> There is some framework in the snapshot releases.
  342. [00:21] <Siveon> I feel like I should see the Mod development then Minecraft game development. And that's just strange.
  343. [00:21] <@Seria-Myouna> All I heard about it was my friend who wanted a pony mod.
  344. [00:21] <SamuraiSkye> They just recently removed the seperate code for Single player, and now Single player is just a client for an internal server
  345. [00:21] <@Seria-Myouna> They had to shut down development due to API changes.
  346. [00:21] <SamuraiSkye> And that laid down the ground work for the mod api
  347. [00:21] <SamuraiSkye> From what i read
  348. [00:21] == Sirgumgum [7ca8db12@gateway/web/freenode/ip.124.168.219.18] has quit [Client Quit]
  349. [00:21] <krsbuilt> Well i suppose the other question is will the networking be efficient enough for a client to run on dialup
  350. [00:22] <Eta> LOL
  351. [00:22] <Siveon> Dialup.
  352. [00:22] <Siveon> Really.
  353. [00:22] <@Seria-Myouna> Can anything run on dialup?
  354. [00:22] <Eta> if youre hosting it?
  355. [00:22] <krsbuilt> nop
  356. [00:22] <SamuraiSkye> Dial up is sexy.
  357. [00:22] <Eta> prob not
  358. [00:22] <+kyren> can minecraft / terraria run on dialup?
  359. [00:22] <@Seria-Myouna> Also, how are you in this chat?
  360. [00:22] <@Seria-Myouna> 56k!
  361. [00:22] <krsbuilt> just the client.
  362. [00:22] <@Ordona> Some games run on dialup
  363. [00:22] <blacksmithgu> kyren: No. Not at all.
  364. [00:22] <Eta> mayb
  365. [00:22] <SamuraiSkye> Terraria is laggy on anything.  I think Terraria would met if you even ran it on a computer with a modem
  366. [00:22] <@Seria-Myouna> Internet chess?
  367. [00:22] <Siveon> Not even Quake 2 can run on dialup.
  368. [00:22] <+kyren> well, okay
  369. [00:23] <blacksmithgu> kyren: If you manage to make starbound run at all on dialup, a thousand internets to you.
  370. [00:23] <krsbuilt> lol
  371. [00:23] <Eta> but is not the efficiency prob you should be worried about...
  372. [00:23] <+kyren> in idle, with a sensible number of entities on screen
  373. [00:23] <+kyren> starbound uses ~4-5k of bw
  374. [00:23] <Siveon> (How am I starting to understand this?)
  375. [00:23] <@Seria-Myouna> ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
  376. [00:23] <Eta> down?
  377. [00:23] <@Ordona> Gasp :o
  378. [00:23] <@Seria-Myouna> Amazing!
  379. [00:23] <+kyren> yeah
  380. [00:23] <blacksmithgu> You're being infected, Siveon. Infected by the nerdiness.
  381. [00:23] <+kyren> kbps
  382. [00:23] <+kyren> but
  383. [00:23] <Castro> Lmao dial up
  384. [00:23] <blacksmithgu> That's impressive, kyren.
  385. [00:23] <Eta> thats pretty low
  386. [00:23] <+kyren> that's without anything at all
  387. [00:23] <Castro> Its all we got in Cuba
  388. [00:23] <@Seria-Myouna> That's more than impressive!
  389. [00:23] <+kyren> no, not done yet :)
  390. [00:23] <krsbuilt> if it could i would praise this for efficient networking. i don't expect it to. roughly how much up/down bandwidth is used per client on a server
  391. [00:24] <+kyren> when poking at water / blocks
  392. [00:24]  * Seria-Myouna makes a shrine to Kyren
  393. [00:24] <+kyren> it shoots up to like 30kbps
  394. [00:24] <@Seria-Myouna> Oh nooo~
  395. [00:24] <Siveon> Physics.
  396. [00:24] <blacksmithgu> I assume due to a flood of block update events?
  397. [00:24] <@Seria-Myouna> 30kbps, what ever shall we do?
  398. [00:24] <@Ordona> The dialup I had 7 years ago peaked at about 30kbps
  399. [00:24] <+kyren> oh, and to make this extra disappointing
  400. [00:24] <Eta> at least you can play single player :P
  401. [00:24] <+kyren> I'm saying KB/s
  402. [00:24] <krsbuilt> 30k per client?
  403. [00:24] <+kyren> sorry, I'm sleepy atm
  404. [00:24] <Eta> K
  405. [00:24] <Eta> damn.
  406. [00:24] <+kyren> in peaks only
  407. [00:24] <Siveon> Dang.
  408. [00:25] <+kyren> like, remember the water demo?
  409. [00:25] <@Seria-Myouna> Dang, shoot, golly gee willikers on a fishstick.
  410. [00:25] <Eta> oh wellz
  411. [00:25] <+kyren> that was 25KB/s to each client
  412. [00:25] <@Ordona> Oh noes
  413. [00:25] <Siveon> *gasp*
  414. [00:25] <@Seria-Myouna> Yeah, I read the part about them being in different countries.
  415. [00:25] == Blaust [3258416c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.88.65.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
  416. [00:25] <Siveon> I thought it was like Canada-America far though.
  417. [00:25] == Mez_ [1811ca97@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.17.202.151] has joined #starbound
  418. [00:25] <@Ordona> It's like, US/UK/Austrailia
  419. [00:25] <@Seria-Myouna> In terarar, if you break a water thingy... it'
  420. [00:25] <+kyren> england / spain / US
  421. [00:25] <Mez_> HEYO
  422. [00:25] <Siveon> Damn.
  423. [00:25] <@Seria-Myouna> It like, dies all over the place.
  424. [00:26] <@Ordona> Hi Mez_
  425. [00:26] <Eta> whos hosting?
  426. [00:26] <@Seria-Myouna> Tiy?
  427. [00:26] <+kyren> terraria uses 4-5x more than we do for water
  428. [00:26] <Eta> england>?
  429. [00:26] <+kyren> yeah, england was hosting
  430. [00:26] <Siveon> Tally Ho.
  431. [00:26] <blacksmithgu> Terraria water physics are ridiculous. You can clone water :P
  432. [00:26] <@Seria-Myouna> Figures
  433. [00:26] <+kyren> I know 25KB/s is a lot
  434. [00:26] <krsbuilt> well that leaves me some hope for society to come out of this bandwidth hog mindset
  435. [00:26] <Mez_> hi kyren!!
  436. [00:26] <blacksmithgu> ^ Not for most games nowadays.
  437. [00:26] <Eta> kiloBytes
  438. [00:26] <@DoctorRagnarok> I am the best at closing doors- http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/1155422234346746596/EC585033AC0E75B79329565B586AB21EBA39F45A/
  439. [00:27] <+kyren> but it's only at peak times
  440. [00:27] <@Seria-Myouna> Wow doc..
  441. [00:27] <@Seria-Myouna> Just... wow
  442. [00:27] <Siveon> Good job.
  443. [00:27] <+kyren> and, we're going to add a lot in the way of slowing down updates intelligently
  444. [00:27] <@Marketh> lol DoctorRagnarok
  445. [00:27] <@Marketh> I had that too
  446. [00:27] <@Seria-Myouna> Probably a good idea.
  447. [00:27] <@Ordona> DoctorRagnarok: I think you oopsed
  448. [00:27] <krsbuilt> understandable.  If you're lucky minecraft will have 30k per client at a trough
  449. [00:27] <Eta> intelligently?
  450. [00:27] <@DoctorRagnarok> I bug reported it just in case, but I lol'd
  451. [00:27] <@Marketh> did you also see the floating rocks/mushrooms in the cave, doc?
  452. [00:28] <@Seria-Myouna> Doc, you broke the friggin spacetime framework.
  453. [00:28] <Siveon> What game is that?
  454. [00:28] <@Seria-Myouna> TSW
  455. [00:28] <@Marketh> The Secret World, Siveon
  456. [00:28] <Siveon> Ah.
  457. [00:28] <@DoctorRagnarok> Yeah, and I've caught trees that don't meet the ground as well
  458. [00:28] <blacksmithgu> Now you make me want that game :/
  459. [00:28] <@Seria-Myouna> Templar Defender looks up.
  460. [00:28] <Siveon> I wondered why the link was on steam.
  461. [00:28] <@Seria-Myouna> Templar defender looks awkwardly at the bush.
  462. [00:28] <+kyren> block based games use a lot of BW
  463. [00:28] <+kyren> they just do :/
  464. [00:28] <Eta> too much server side?
  465. [00:28] <@Marketh> Haven't seen trees with that problem, but I've seen some rocks that you can look under and see through them
  466. [00:28] == fan227 [41133861@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.19.56.97] has joined #starbound
  467. [00:28] <@DoctorRagnarok> I just beat the shit out of a lot of Templar Defenders, funny that you mention that
  468. [00:28] <krsbuilt> yeah, but most of the time more than they have to
  469. [00:28] <Siveon> GAH.
  470. [00:28] <blacksmithgu> kyren, how much of your game is server-sided vs client sided?
  471. [00:29] <@Seria-Myouna> Check the chatlog in your screenshot, Doc.
  472. [00:29] == fan227 [41133861@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.19.56.97] has quit [Client Quit]
  473. [00:29] <@Seria-Myouna> xD
  474. [00:29] <+kyren> what do you mean blacksmithgu?
  475. [00:29] <@Marketh> I still haven't finished that faction mission.... I should go back and attempt that soon
  476. [00:29] <Eta> im guessing server side is the action thats prcessed
  477. [00:29] <Siveon> Looks left, Looks right...
  478. [00:29] <@DoctorRagnarok> lol, I wasn't even paying attention
  479. [00:29] <@Seria-Myouna> XD
  480. [00:29] <Eta> the client just has the visuals
  481. [00:29] <blacksmithgu> As in do you have the server ultimately hold all the information or do you leave some computations for the client?
  482. [00:29] <+kyren> some things are server authoritative with security checks
  483. [00:30] <+kyren> er, excuse me
  484. [00:30] <+kyren> client authoritative
  485. [00:30] <+kyren> sorry, I really can't speak right now haha
  486. [00:30] <blacksmithgu> Client Computation, but the server checks it?
  487. [00:30] <@Seria-Myouna> xD
  488. [00:30] <@Seria-Myouna> So ya dun screw up something clientside using memory hacks or summat
  489. [00:30] <+kyren> yeah, there's a security monitor bit that's still being worked on
  490. [00:30] <blacksmithgu> Yeah, pretty standard fare for most servers.
  491. [00:31] <+kyren> we're much less worried about PvP cheating than say
  492. [00:31] <+kyren> spawning bombs in every spot in the whole map
  493. [00:31] <krsbuilt> that seems like it could become extremely inefficient rather quickly
  494. [00:31] <@Seria-Myouna> Yar, good point.
  495. [00:31] <@Ordona> That sounds fun though :(
  496. [00:31] <Eta> Ehh, if it's their experince they want to ruin, then so be it
  497. [00:31] <blacksmithgu> krsbuilt, it's the only way to prevent large scale explotation.
  498. [00:31] <+kyren> I mean, if you don't want them to do it
  499. [00:31] <@Seria-Myouna> That would crash things in a hurry, I would imagine
  500. [00:31] <Eta> the line crosses at other's experience
  501. [00:32] <@Seria-Myouna> Don't let em into yer server.
  502. [00:32] <+kyren> but movement in game is client-side authoritative atm, with speed checks
  503. [00:32] <@Seria-Myouna> Is gut
  504. [00:32] <Eta> Whew!
  505. [00:32] <Eta> thats good
  506. [00:32] <@Seria-Myouna> No speed hackies!
  507. [00:32] <+kyren> client damage is client side authoritative
  508. [00:33] <Eta> i thought it was gonna be like minecraft
  509. [00:33] <+kyren> minecraft has speed checks, I thought?
  510. [00:33] <@Seria-Myouna> If a client messes up too much data, do they get kicked or anything?
  511. [00:33] <Eta> lag lag laggy lag lag
  512. [00:33] <blacksmithgu> Minecraft uses location checks.
  513. [00:33] <@Ordona> At one point changing the system clock hypersped Minecraft
  514. [00:33] <krsbuilt> if you program it correctly it won't be, just saying be wary of overcomplicating
  515. [00:33] <@Seria-Myouna> I guess it wouldn't matter though
  516. [00:33] <krsbuilt> personal suggestion from experiance
  517. [00:33] <@Seria-Myouna> Since their hacking efforts would be in vain
  518. [00:34] <+kyren> what's that krsbuilt?
  519. [00:34] <Nimrod> :| ?
  520. [00:34] <@Seria-Myouna> Leave nothing to be exploited, I believe.
  521. [00:34] <@Seria-Myouna> Close all da gaps!
  522. [00:34] <Eta> is there going to be lan?
  523. [00:34] <@Seria-Myouna> Seal the bulkheads!
  524. [00:34] <blacksmithgu> kyren: On your speed check, something as simple as a check to see that a user hasn't moved more than (delta * speed)  since the last update would suffice.
  525. [00:35] <+kyren> it's so much more complicated than that haha
  526. [00:35] <+kyren> I mean, what's the delta supposed to be?
  527. [00:35] <blacksmithgu> kyren: The time since the last time a speed check occured.
  528. [00:35] <+kyren> keep in mind all possibilities of collision correction / item usage / knockback / etc
  529. [00:35] <@Seria-Myouna> It would have to record relative moment.
  530. [00:35] <+kyren> or, excuse me, speed
  531. [00:35] <@Seria-Myouna> From each checkpoint
  532. [00:35] <blacksmithgu> ^
  533. [00:36]  * Siveon head explodes
  534. [00:36] <@Seria-Myouna> Course, it would only need to keep one point at a time
  535. [00:36] <Eta> you would have to add in the execptions though
  536. [00:36] <+kyren> what if, your maximum possible speed in any instance is from knockback of a certain enemy and then immediately using a boost item or something crazy
  537. [00:36] <@Seria-Myouna> and just dump the rest of the points
  538. [00:36] <@Seria-Myouna> Normally not obtaiable.
  539. [00:37] <+kyren> yeah, but it has to sample speed over time
  540. [00:37] <@Seria-Myouna> You could set your speed to that, then run around at a higher speed than normal.
  541. [00:37] <+kyren> right
  542. [00:37] <@Seria-Myouna> Without failing the check
  543. [00:37] <@Seria-Myouna> So it would have to record collisions like "Hit by explosion" etc.
  544. [00:37] == Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.96.122.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
  545. [00:37] <@Seria-Myouna> In order to check right... it would be a mess.
  546. [00:37] <blacksmithgu> Indeed.
  547. [00:38] <+kyren> right, and it would be desynched from the client
  548. [00:38] <@Seria-Myouna> Yerp
  549. [00:38] <+kyren> we're less worried about pvp cheating
  550. [00:39] <+kyren> honestly
  551. [00:39] <krsbuilt> the approach to solving the speedhack problem changes depending on how many people are on the server
  552. [00:39] <Eta> pvp is more personal
  553. [00:39] <@Seria-Myouna> C4 on all empty tiles!
  554. [00:39] <@Seria-Myouna> ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
  555. [00:39] <Siveon> I think I may to...school more.
  556. [00:39] <Siveon> *need
  557. [00:39] <Eta> if they want to duel with +10000dmg lightsabers so be it
  558. [00:39] <+kyren> but we're not *not* worried about it
  559. [00:39] <@Seria-Myouna> Yer only 16, you have time.
  560. [00:40] <@Seria-Myouna> If someone is hackin, just ban them.
  561. [00:40] <@Seria-Myouna> Or give your server a password
  562. [00:40] <+kyren> but atm damage is authoritative where the damage is applied, which is.. not optimal I know
  563. [00:40] <blacksmithgu> Overall, just make sure all block/entity updates are checked by the server so the client can't spawn in a million nukes.
  564. [00:40] <Eta> i heard that some game , if they detect you cheating, they pu you in a cheater's pool.
  565. [00:40] <Siveon> What about if you wanted a main server?
  566. [00:40] <+kyren> but there are some very twitch based blocking things
  567. [00:40] <@Seria-Myouna> Yar.
  568. [00:41] == Capt_Happy [4ca46e21@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.164.110.33] has joined #starbound
  569. [00:41] <jevoneastham> if you cheat in America's Army, you get sent to jail
  570. [00:41] <blacksmithgu> kyren: On twitched based things, it kind of HAS to be somewhat client-side, doesn't it?
  571. [00:41] <@Seria-Myouna> Dang.
  572. [00:41] <+kyren> yeah, it does
  573. [00:41] <jevoneastham> not real jail, of course
  574. [00:41] <@Seria-Myouna> Otherwise server is like... Nope.
  575. [00:41] <+kyren> I dunno, I'm not going to claim we could have done nothing differently, it's just
  576. [00:41] <@Seria-Myouna> Facestabs occur.
  577. [00:41] <+kyren> it's hard.. oh god it's hard haha
  578. [00:41] <Eta> np, we'll get there when we get there
  579. [00:42] <+kyren> I'm the realist of the group
  580. [00:42] <+kyren> if you hadn't noticed
  581. [00:42] <@Seria-Myouna> We trust ya Ky, ya know what yer doin, xD
  582. [00:42] <Eta> drag down hopes :)
  583. [00:42] <blacksmithgu> I saw that.
  584. [00:43] <@Seria-Myouna> "Not optimal... 25kbps not that good..."
  585. [00:43] <@Seria-Myouna> xD
  586. [00:43] <Eta> i just hope that this game lasts longer than my other games
  587. [00:43] <+kyren> KB/s
  588. [00:43] <+kyren> I can't type
  589. [00:43] <@Seria-Myouna> KB/s*
  590. [00:43] <@Seria-Myouna> Ah see
  591. [00:43] <+kyren> it's only 25KB/s in peaks
  592. [00:43] <Eta> I've gotten bored of everygame
  593. [00:43] <krsbuilt> In all reality, most hacking/cheating is really not worth worrying about.  in the few cases where a hack can exploit the server is it necessary to do something
  594. [00:43] <+kyren> or if you do a ton
  595. [00:44] <@Seria-Myouna> Pixelbuster. new anti-cheat for pixelated games!
  596. [00:44] <+kyren> also, it's related to the client window size
  597. [00:44] <@Seria-Myouna> xD
  598. [00:44] <Capt_Happy> is that how much bandwidth the client uses?
  599. [00:44] <Capt_Happy> 25 KB/s?
  600. [00:44] <+kyren> in *peaks*
  601. [00:44] == krsbuilt [97d5d695@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.213.214.149] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  602. [00:44] <+kyren> it *peaks* at 25 KB/s
  603. [00:44] == ChuckTesta [62c33923@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.195.57.35] has joined #starbound
  604. [00:44] <Capt_Happy> wow
  605. [00:44] <+kyren> that's not very good!
  606. [00:44] <Capt_Happy> whatever you say man.
  607. [00:44] <+kyren> that was during the filming of the water demo
  608. [00:44] <Eta> u *8 to get kb?
  609. [00:45] <Capt_Happy> sounds pretty good to me.
  610. [00:45] <+kyren> yes
  611. [00:45] <Eta> ~200kb.s
  612. [00:45] <Eta> hmm
  613. [00:45] <+kyren> in peaks
  614. [00:45] <SamuraiSkye> On my crappy cable connection, thats enough for me to host 4 friends 100% lag free.  Im okay with that.
  615. [00:45] <Eta> doesnt sound too good...
  616. [00:45] <@Seria-Myouna> Sounds good to me, xD
  617. [00:45] <blacksmithgu> kbps is kilobits vs KB/s which is kilobytes.
  618. [00:45] <@Marketh> btw DoctorRagnarok
  619. [00:45] <+kyren> it's not that good
  620. [00:45] == Otto_ [4b01801f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.1.128.31] has joined #starbound
  621. [00:45] <Otto_> hello?
  622. [00:45] <@Marketh> did you accept or refuse the gift?
  623. [00:45] <@DoctorRagnarok> I refused
  624. [00:45] <@Seria-Myouna> I'm sure you can figure something out.
  625. [00:45] <@Marketh> Oh
  626. [00:45] <@Marketh> Me too
  627. [00:45] <SamuraiSkye> Its better then some games ^^
  628. [00:45] <@DoctorRagnarok> Aijou accepted
  629. [00:45] <@Marketh> I wonder what happens if you accept
  630. [00:46] <@Marketh> oh
  631. [00:46] <@Marketh> what happens if you do accept?
  632. [00:46] <+kyren> but it's better than other block based games
  633. [00:46] <SamuraiSkye> ^
  634. [00:46] <@DoctorRagnarok> They were like "good, you've taken the first step"  and that was it
  635. [00:46] <@Seria-Myouna> Blocks use up alot of resources.
  636. [00:46] <@Marketh> Strange. I wonder how it'll effect the story, if it does
  637. [00:46] <@Seria-Myouna> Just be glad it aint coded in pudding(Java)
  638. [00:46] <Capt_Happy> hahaha
  639. [00:46] <+kyren> overall the water demo I think averaged like 10-15 KB/s
  640. [00:46] <+kyren> because water changed a lot
  641. [00:46] <Capt_Happy> that really is good.
  642. [00:47] <blacksmithgu> Block updating always uses alot of bandwidth as you have to provide all the data in every packet.
  643. [00:47] <+kyren> but also, we haven't added throttling at all yet
  644. [00:47] <Eta> even on the ocean planet?
  645. [00:47] <+kyren> if the water is still it uses ~0
  646. [00:47] <Eta> oh
  647. [00:47] <+kyren> it's all delta coded, then the deltas are gathered and compressed
  648. [00:47] <+kyren> and it's only what's near the player
  649. [00:47] <Eta> so its at idle
  650. [00:48] <Eta> sorta
  651. [00:48] <blacksmithgu> kyren: So essentially it sends no data if no blocks are being updated?
  652. [00:48] <+kyren> yeah
  653. [00:48] <Capt_Happy> GOOD
  654. [00:48] <Eta> What if you have multiple people doing multiple things in multiple places?
  655. [00:48] == Otto_ [4b01801f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.1.128.31] has quit [Client Quit]
  656. [00:48] <Capt_Happy> i've played games that didn't do that.
  657. [00:48] <blacksmithgu> I believe that's similar to the minecraft approach, which only sends update packets when a block state changes.
  658. [00:48] <+kyren> the server would send each person what's near them
  659. [00:48] <Eta> ohh ok
  660. [00:49] <+kyren> but not things that aren't near them
  661. [00:49] == Zerokyuuni [~Zerokyuun@210.sub-75-252-122.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
  662. [00:49] <Capt_Happy> that makes sense.
  663. [00:49] <Eta> What if we wanted to host 10 players?
  664. [00:49] <Eta> would that take up a lot?
  665. [00:49] <blacksmithgu> Random other question, kyren: On your indev server, does it have a "chunk" system in which it only holds active regions in memory?
  666. [00:49] <+kyren> yes
  667. [00:50] <+kyren> that's exactly how it works
  668. [00:50] <@Seria-Myouna> http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1828181 http://www.hoardgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=28
  669. [00:50] <+kyren> the client has a X block buffer around it's window
  670. [00:50] <+kyren> of chunks that it considers as active
  671. [00:50] <+kyren> and the server sends updates in that region
  672. [00:51] <blacksmithgu> If you have things which work over time which are not currently loaded, they won't be updated, correct?
  673. [00:51] <+kyren> the server only keeps chunks active with active entities or objects
  674. [00:51] <Eta> is the planet stuill stimulating thought?
  675. [00:51] <+kyren> no!
  676. [00:51] <+kyren> actually
  677. [00:51] <Eta> WUT
  678. [00:51] <+kyren> if you have an object that is processing something
  679. [00:51] <+kyren> it won't "sleep"
  680. [00:51] <+kyren> so, that chunk won't be unloaded
  681. [00:51] <Eta> ohh, so vines will still grow
  682. [00:51] <Capt_Happy> yeay
  683. [00:51] <+kyren> well, no
  684. [00:51] <+kyren> growth is handled differently
  685. [00:51] <Eta> NOOO
  686. [00:51] <@Seria-Myouna> So if there were umm, turrets, say, in a base, shooting a lizard, would it be loaded?
  687. [00:52] <Eta> ohh ok
  688. [00:52] <+kyren> vines will grow
  689. [00:52] <+kyren> but
  690. [00:52] <+kyren> it won't be in memory all the time
  691. [00:52] <+kyren> if growth worked like that
  692. [00:52] <Eta> its more passive?
  693. [00:52] <+kyren> the whole map would be in memory all the time, yes exactly
  694. [00:52] <Capt_Happy> timestamps on the objects?
  695. [00:52] <+kyren> "active objects" would be like
  696. [00:52] <+kyren> circuits, etc
  697. [00:52] <@Seria-Myouna> X vine has not been updated in X seconds. Time to grow!
  698. [00:52] <Eta> i see
  699. [00:53] <+kyren> growth is handled not by the object, it's handled by a growth manager thing
  700. [00:53] <blacksmithgu> For everyone else, from what I understand, as long as a region has an active object in it, it will not unload until that active object is finished computing.
  701. [00:53] <@Seria-Myouna> Oh, fancy
  702. [00:53] <+kyren> yes, until the object goes to sleep
  703. [00:53] <+kyren> which, realistically
  704. [00:53] <@Seria-Myouna> "Still shooting lizard... Must stay awake..."
  705. [00:53] <Capt_Happy> lol
  706. [00:53] <+kyren> the only objects that wouldn't go to sleep are active defense objects / circuits
  707. [00:54] <Eta> also mob movement is handled by another manager rgiht>?
  708. [00:54] <@Seria-Myouna> So unless you made "Active Defence Objects" every two feet, wouldn't be a problem.
  709. [00:54] <blacksmithgu> You may be able to have active defense objects "sleep" until another active entity enters, in order to save some RAM.
  710. [00:54] <+kyren> well, if the active defense object isn't doing anything, it would sleep
  711. [00:54] <@Seria-Myouna> Ah, I see.
  712. [00:54] == Zerokyuuni [~Zerokyuun@51.sub-75-246-241.myvzw.com] has joined #starbound
  713. [00:54] <Capt_Happy> how are "mobs" spawned in this game?
  714. [00:55] <+kyren> NPC movement is handled by each NPC, but NPC spawning is handled by the NPC.. spawner
  715. [00:55] <@Seria-Myouna> Should have a sign that says: "Turn the lights off, save some energy"
  716. [00:55] <+kyren> by the NPC spawner
  717. [00:55] <Capt_Happy> that was fast
  718. [00:55] <+kyren> no, lights being on does not mean "not asleep"
  719. [00:55] <+kyren> it's more code-ey
  720. [00:55] <+kyren> like
  721. [00:55] <Capt_Happy> how does that operate?
  722. [00:55] <+kyren> if you get serialized to disk will it mess something up = not asleep
  723. [00:56] <@Seria-Myouna> I... see?
  724. [00:56] <blacksmithgu> Just having lights "on" doesn't make them "not asleep"
  725. [00:56] <+kyren> npcs are, *sometimes* persistent, *sometimes* not persistent
  726. [00:56] <blacksmithgu> You can just save the "on" state.
  727. [00:56] <+kyren> right, ^
  728. [00:56] <@Seria-Myouna> Ahhh
  729. [00:56] <@Seria-Myouna> Good point, just make em shiny
  730. [00:56] <blacksmithgu> NPC's on the other hand may have some computation which cannot be serialized properly and as such must remain on the active RAM.
  731. [00:56] <+kyren> wow, I'm answering a lot of questions
  732. [00:56] <blacksmithgu> Sorry, kyren XD
  733. [00:56] <+kyren> or, they're doing something
  734. [00:56] <+kyren> that's having an effect
  735. [00:56] <+kyren> like chasing you
  736. [00:57] <+kyren> but "regular" npcs don't exist if you're not looking at them
  737. [00:57] <@Seria-Myouna> "Gathering pizza plant... must not fall asleep *Narcolepsied*"
  738. [00:57] <Siveon> Well it's good to always give feed back. ^^
  739. [00:57] <+kyren> but it takes a while for them to be unloaded
  740. [00:57] <Eta> so they wont move when you dont see them?
  741. [00:57] <+kyren> the planet is alive, think eh
  742. [00:57] <+kyren> "they go somewhere else that you can't see"
  743. [00:58] <Siveon> Okay so they are alway's "alive"
  744. [00:58] <Eta> but they're not active
  745. [00:58] <+kyren> "they go hang out on that hill in the background"
  746. [00:58] <Capt_Happy> ohhh
  747. [00:58] <blacksmithgu> Probably the best approach there.
  748. [00:58] <Capt_Happy> now it makes total sense.
  749. [00:58] <+kyren> they get despawned if you're not looking at them, there's not a finite number of NPCs :)
  750. [00:58] <@Seria-Myouna> Should have an enemy sitting in the background, waving as an easter egg.
  751. [00:58] <Eta> ohh ok
  752. [00:58] <@Seria-Myouna> xD
  753. [00:58] <Capt_Happy> IKR?
  754. [00:58] <@Seria-Myouna> And like, two enemies sitting next to a blanket drinking tea.
  755. [00:58] <@Seria-Myouna> XD
  756. [00:58] <Eta> the creeper is going to be an easter egg
  757. [00:59] <jevoneastham> there is going to be inter-planetary travel in starbound right?
  758. [00:59] <Eta> i just know it!
  759. [00:59] <+kyren> yeah
  760. [00:59] <blacksmithgu> Yes @jevoneastham.
  761. [00:59] <+kyren> I have crazy ideas about transporters
  762. [00:59] <Capt_Happy> good.
  763. [00:59] <Eta> hope they obey physics
  764. [00:59] <+kyren> like, teleporters
  765. [00:59] <+kyren> gates
  766. [00:59] <Capt_Happy> crazy is fun
  767. [00:59] <+kyren> etc
  768. [00:59] <blacksmithgu> kyren: Make huge cool teleporters.
  769. [00:59] <@Seria-Myouna> Light Level= -12, Danger Level= 413, *Spawns a creeper* tsssssssss....
  770. [00:59] <Capt_Happy> YES.
  771. [00:59] <jevoneastham> sooooo will the "active" chunks still be awake while you are on a different world?
  772. [00:59] <+kyren> only if they're active
  773. [00:59] <+kyren> and it'll probably be an option in the server config somewhere
  774. [01:00] <@Seria-Myouna> So just bases I presume.
  775. [01:00] <@Seria-Myouna> Since theres nothing else to interact with
  776. [01:00] <+kyren> really, the only thing that should ever remain perma-active without you being there is like
  777. [01:00] <+kyren> circiuts
  778. [01:00] <+kyren> that's the only thing I can think
  779. [01:00] <@Seria-Myouna> Could have an option to only preload only like top 5 most visited worlds
  780. [01:00] <+kyren> I don't think we'll be so cruel as to have events while you're not there, unless we tell you about them haha
  781. [01:01] <@Seria-Myouna> Your base on Tentaclor-5 is being assaulted soon.
  782. [01:01] <+kyren> so, we might load the world when an event starts before you get there :)
  783. [01:01] <@Seria-Myouna> Go defend it!
  784. [01:01] <Eta> But it adds a sense of randomness!
  785. [01:01] <blacksmithgu> kyren: Perhaps something big like cross-planet attacks could occur.
  786. [01:01] <Capt_Happy> there's a party on cygnus x-1 and you're not invited!
  787. [01:01] <Capt_Happy> lol
  788. [01:01] <@Seria-Myouna> Objective: Crash the dang party!
  789. [01:01] <Capt_Happy> lol
  790. [01:01] <@Seria-Myouna> (With explosives)
  791. [01:01] <Capt_Happy> YES.
  792. [01:01] <+kyren> cross planet attacks would be crazy, but the planets don't really exist in the same continuous space, it'd be WAY too big
  793. [01:02] <@Seria-Myouna> Interplanetary railguns, xD
  794. [01:02] <+kyren> but, there will be invasions, etc
  795. [01:02] <Siveon> Maybe a teleporter could spawn like a random horde?
  796. [01:02] <Jattt> im glad there wont be space travel
  797. [01:02] <Jattt> space travel is boring as fuck
  798. [01:02] <Siveon> :(
  799. [01:02] <Capt_Happy> I want a deathstar
  800. [01:02] <Eta> LOL i was thinking of fututrama planetary golf
  801. [01:02] <Capt_Happy> lol
  802. [01:02] <@Seria-Myouna> Incoming Rail Projectile: T-minus 5:13 til impact.
  803. [01:02] <+kyren> well, it just won't be "fly up in a continuous path to the next planet" travel
  804. [01:02] <Capt_Happy> planetary golf
  805. [01:02] <+kyren> there will be space travel
  806. [01:02] <Eta> they literally use planets as a golf course
  807. [01:02] <+kyren> but, the worlds are 2d, so
  808. [01:02] <@Seria-Myouna> Should have a "Space map
  809. [01:02] <Jattt> space travel like, seeing yourself traveling through space?
  810. [01:02] <Capt_Happy> 2d or 3d map?
  811. [01:02] <Jattt> and waiting until you get to the next planet?
  812. [01:03] <jevoneastham> some sort of sweet space rocket launching silo would be awesome
  813. [01:03] <@Seria-Myouna> Like in Dwarf Fortress, where there's distances between them.
  814. [01:03] <Siveon> I think keepin it 2D would be good.
  815. [01:03] <blacksmithgu> kyren: Do you plan on having instantaneous warp gates you could build (like I could go on a spaceship from planet A to B or just take a warpgate if I have one on both planets from A to B without the ship).
  816. [01:03] <@Seria-Myouna> And names, etc.
  817. [01:03] <+kyren> I want that, blacksmithgu
  818. [01:03] <@Seria-Myouna> Starboundgates.
  819. [01:03] <blacksmithgu> kyren: Any major coding problems with it?
  820. [01:03] <+kyren> and technically it's not hard at all
  821. [01:03] <Eta> STARGATE
  822. [01:03] <+kyren> no, not in the slightest
  823. [01:03] <Eta> SG-1
  824. [01:03] == Warthog [470c5d42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.12.93.66] has joined #starbound
  825. [01:03] <@Seria-Myouna> Gotta know the codes.
  826. [01:03] <@Seria-Myouna> xD
  827. [01:03] <jevoneastham> is there going to be power, or will everything just work when you stick wires on it?
  828. [01:04] <+kyren> we had some crazy ideas about power
  829. [01:04] <@Seria-Myouna> What is this "Power" you speak of?
  830. [01:04] <+kyren> they're not implemented atm
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