Re: Too Progressive for Our Time
Posted by: "Chiew YH" yhchiew@yahoo.com.sg   zhou_ruohan
Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:48 am (PDT)



Yes I totally agree with Kim.

Being too progressive for one's time is sometimes counterproductive to the
change that one intends to make. Most people don't give a damn about morals,
morals are for the religious and the lunatics. Most people in the society
are just conditioned into following a set of social norms, which they can be
persuaded to change if the change is small. However, if the change is
drastically different, rejection is the usual response.

Fighting for gay rights is no different from any marketing campaign. Play
the right card. Event like Pink Dot is the right move. Why? Because it
emphasises love, family etc. Just all those things that society already
accepted and love to hear. Having sex in toilets and getting caught is the
wrong move. Why? Because society doesn't like to hear you can have sex
anytime anywhere you want.

An organisation is most effective and can achieve the most if the people
within move in the same direction. Individuals who only think of themselves
and only want things their way are usually a disaster to the group. Yeah do
all the Pink Dot you want, I continue to have sex in toilets and get caught,
it's my right and none of your business.

I'm not a conservative. I'm a pragmatist and an utilitarian. Morals don't
matter to me. Reality, however does.

Just as we ask the self-righteous to come down from their moral high horse,
let those who live in their ivory towers come out too!

From: signel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:signel@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Kim Chuan
Sent: Monday, 21 June, 2010 6:51 AM
To: signel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SiGNeL] Too Progressive for Our Time

Roy and all,

Let me make a general comment. I totally agree with you Roy, on all aspects
(especially the 4-point fight for all gays).

But I think we are both too progressive for Singapore at this point in time.
I think we will fit in better in Europe where it is more relevant to fight
for these things when the foundations of gay equality has long been built
and stable. I stress again that I stand on your side. It is just that I
sympathise with your facing of all these negative comments from other
people. They might think that they are righteously holding on to the reins
of their moral high horses, and they might be absolutely right at THIS point
in time because "moral" values change over time. These values are also
relative. To them, maybe homophobic Christian fundamentalists might be too
backward in their thinking and to us, making hard drugs legal for all
regardless of age might be too progressive. So you are right in saying that
at the end of the day, it is the age-old conservatism vs progressiveness
battle, one which will last forever.

Don't forget that there are gays that have not even realised that they are
gays or identified themselves as homosexuals -- they are on the other end of
the spectrum compared to us. But they are not wrong with respect to their
own worlds and values either. However closetted people are wrong to wish
that they should be given more rights or not be treated like criminals under
the law because they have not done enough to deserve that right -- they have
not even come out for goodness sake. Fortunately there are others who are
willing to do the dirty job and leg work for them so they should count
themselves lucky.

I know you will continue to fight and make strong-worded posts on SigNel as
well as in the Singaporean gay community. Please continue to do so. Just
remember that right now, we are in the minority within the gay population of
Singapore and do not be discouraged by negative comments. To every one else,
we must not forget that without activists and the community constantly
pushing the envelope, there will never be equality. Granted that different
people would like to see things change at varying speeds and hence some
being louder and more progressive than the rest, we must remember that the
ultimate aim is for the greater good of the gay community. And this is
exactly what Roy and the others are fighting for.

PS: Thanks to all the Pink Dot organisers (including Roy) for your tireless
effort towards the fight for gay equality in Singapore. I will definitely
not forget all the hard work put in by you guys.

Kim

--- In signel@yahoogroups.com <mailto:signel%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roy Tan"
<groyn88@...> wrote:
>
> This is a general rebuttal against all those points raised against having
designated cruising areas.
>
> Firstly, this is the eternal battle of conservatives versus liberals.
>
> I am advocating an ultraliberal society in Singapore where everyone, no
matter how narrow his interests, has a space to indulge in whatever he or
she likes to do, as long as it does not cause physical harm to another, or
deprives him of his liberty or property.
>
> Many are opposed to what they say is "public sex", but as I have stated
many times, this is open-air sex in designated areas and is therefore not
considered public.
>
> Furthermore, it is not an exclusively gay special interest and will not
give the gay community a bad name because ultraliberal straight people also
want such freedoms.
>
> We have many public parks in Singapore and a stretch of beach along the
East Coast which is at least 8 miles long. It wouldn't be much of a problem
if we designated 1 or 2 of the underutilised parks as cruising areas. They
will not be exclusively for gay people because straight people have these
needs too and the ultraliberal ones do not mind if gays join them so there
need not be separate areas for gay and straight park visitors.
>
> We just need one policeman to be stationed at each park to ensure that
nobody underaged tries to sneak in and the areas will be open from 11 pm at
night to 5 am the following morning when the parks are usually completely
deserted.
>
> As for the stretch of beach, it can be open throughout the day as is the
case with most nude beaches overseas.
>
> Although most of the posts so far have been against my idea, I know for a
fact that there are many other ultraliberals who have so far been silent. If
you go to any of the cruising areas in Singapore on a Saturday and ask the
cruisers there if they support such a proposal, I am sure they will say yes
because they go there periodically.
>
> Personally, I know of very few gays who have not, at some time in their
lives, gone cruising. If they knew that there were designated areas where
they could do so legally, I'm sure they would be pleased.
>
> I'm glad Lonvoon said he was not against nudist beaches. This is a good
starting point. Once we have established this beachhead, mooting the idea of
designated cruising areas will be easier.
>
> Of course, before all this is done, we first have to get Section 377A
repealed because the government will never sanction designated cruising
areas if gay sex is still illegal.
>
> The public can see that gay culture is not all about sex because we hold
jobs in the daytime and there are other gay venues like bars and clubs, even
churches, where sex is not the order of the day.
>
> I want to expedite the maturity and tolerance of Singapore's population
and eradicate nudophobia, sexophobia and homophobia.
>
> It also has economic spinoffs because once Singapore's image has been
perceived to have changed towards being ultraliberal, it will attract other
ultraliberal and creative people to our shores.
>
> Cheers,
> Roy.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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5.2.
Re: Too Progressive for Our Time
Posted by: "avangion76" silenceglaive@gmail.com   avangion76
Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:49 am (PDT)



Yes, Kim, I bet the good governments of Europe will do as Roy said, and spend good public money to get their police to surround certain areas so that gay men can safely cruise within. Hmm, I wonder which government will start first. Ah, surely the liberal Dutch! They have already legalized prostitution and soft drugs, so why not gay cruising zones?

Chris

--- In signel@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Chuan" <nauhcmik@...> wrote:
>
> Roy and all,
>
> Let me make a general comment. I totally agree with you Roy, on all aspects (especially the 4-point fight for all gays).
>
> But I think we are both too progressive for Singapore at this point in time. I think we will fit in better in Europe where it is more relevant to fight for these things when the foundations of gay equality has long been built and stable. I stress again that I stand on your side. It is just that I sympathise with your facing of all these negative comments from other people. They might think that they are righteously holding on to the reins of their moral high horses, and they might be absolutely right at THIS point in time because "moral" values change over time. These values are also relative. To them, maybe homophobic Christian fundamentalists might be too backward in their thinking and to us, making hard drugs legal for all regardless of age might be too progressive. So you are right in saying that at the end of the day, it is the age-old conservatism vs progressiveness battle, one which will last forever.
>
> Don't forget that there are gays that have not even realised that they are gays or identified themselves as homosexuals -- they are on the other end of the spectrum compared to us. But they are not wrong with respect to their own worlds and values either. However closetted people are wrong to wish that they should be given more rights or not be treated like criminals under the law because they have not done enough to deserve that right -- they have not even come out for goodness sake. Fortunately there are others who are willing to do the dirty job and leg work for them so they should count themselves lucky.
>
> I know you will continue to fight and make strong-worded posts on SigNel as well as in the Singaporean gay community. Please continue to do so. Just remember that right now, we are in the minority within the gay population of Singapore and do not be discouraged by negative comments. To every one else, we must not forget that without activists and the community constantly pushing the envelope, there will never be equality. Granted that different people would like to see things change at varying speeds and hence some being louder and more progressive than the rest, we must remember that the ultimate aim is for the greater good of the gay community. And this is exactly what Roy and the others are fighting for.
>
> PS: Thanks to all the Pink Dot organisers (including Roy) for your tireless effort towards the fight for gay equality in Singapore. I will definitely not forget all the hard work put in by you guys.
>
> Kim

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