(06-27-15 15:26:28) <@VirtualPreacher> [14:47] <VirtualPreacher> gay activists want to make it about "discrimination" against people. that is a gross   distortion of the issue. the issue is trying to use the apparatus of government to force people to facilitate *activity*   that they are prohibited by the teachings of their faith tradition from having anything to do with.
(06-27-15 15:26:36) <+Micosil> [Shoegazer], too much info. :)
(06-27-15 15:26:51) <+[Shoegazer]> Micosil, not really. just something you see in the world
(06-27-15 15:27:06) <+Atomist> VirtualPreacher, it can't be discrimination if you don't get involved.
(06-27-15 15:27:10) <+DFC> dizzy_: yes and when asked why i said i dont know why they would
(06-27-15 15:27:12) <+Atomist> Stay out, and you can't discriminate.
(06-27-15 15:27:22) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: Interesting, yet has nothing to do with gay marriage interestingly enough. Unless you think the government issuing the license is forcing you to facilitate the activity i suppose
(06-27-15 15:27:25) <+[Shoegazer]> I mean personally dry hump all you like.
(06-27-15 15:27:29) <+dizzy_> ok
(06-27-15 15:27:36) <+Frost> Yeah, but government is forcing the christian church to become involved.
(06-27-15 15:27:39) <+[Shoegazer]> UCN: be a real stretch
(06-27-15 15:27:45) <+Sardaukar> i admit fringe gay activism is annoying but it is to be expected, the swing from bieng repressed to being free causes that
(06-27-15 15:27:45) <+[Shoegazer]> Frost, nope
(06-27-15 15:27:56) <+[Shoegazer]> Frost, the US government is not at all doing that
(06-27-15 15:28:01) <+alonsoF_> Sardaukar:  true
(06-27-15 15:28:03) <+UnderCoverNerd> Frost: Really? Which church in the US is being forced to get involved?
(06-27-15 15:28:03) <@VirtualPreacher> UnderCoverNerd as i have stated repeatedly my opposition to gay marriage had to do with giving the legitimacy to gay marriage which then lends itself to this kind of coercion of unwilling parties
(06-27-15 15:28:44) <+dizzy_> Frost how is that?
(06-27-15 15:28:48) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: Except it doesn't, as I have pointed out numerous times. The kinds of things you fear, such as forcing a baker to bake a gay wedding cake, can happen (and has) in states where gay marriage was banned yet homosexuality was a protected class
(06-27-15 15:28:49) <+O`Puck> VirtualPreacher, but like I said before, put yourself in the shoes of a gay couple, that doesn't hold your Christian beliefs and interpretations. Of course it is discrimination to them, it doesn't matter what reasons the people wishing to deprive them of marital rights are, to them it is discrimination. Is it really so, strange that they call it discrimination?
(06-27-15 15:28:55) <+[Shoegazer]> if you don't want to sell things for all weddings don't go into the wedding stuff biz maybe
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(06-27-15 15:29:29) <+UnderCoverNerd> If sexuality is made a protected class in your state, or nationwide, you can start to fear business owners being forced to 'participate' by providing servivces such as cakes
(06-27-15 15:29:44) <+Frost> Hmmm.  I'd heard the  minister of one church I attended fearing to lose his tax-free status if he didn't perform gay marriages.
(06-27-15 15:29:52) <+[Shoegazer]> Frost, won't happen
(06-27-15 15:29:55) <+DFC> dizzy_: not saying they will but a persons ego getting hurt can cause alot of problems, kinda like a christian fighting against same sex marriages for years and it was all for nothing so he turned schitzo
(06-27-15 15:30:02) <+alonsoF_> i wouldn't deny someone rights, just because i was afraid it might lead to other problems -- that's not what rights are for -- address any "other problems" if and when they arise
(06-27-15 15:30:08) <+UnderCoverNerd> Frost: A minister saying they fear x will happen doesn't mean x is going to happen tho
(06-27-15 15:30:21) <+[Shoegazer]> People fear a lot of stupid things because they don't understand separation of church and state
(06-27-15 15:30:38) <+UnderCoverNerd> see we do allow churches to discriminate already and they don't lose tax exempt status, why would this be different?
(06-27-15 15:30:43) <+dizzy_> Frost im pretty sure pastors are not required to perform any marriages by the government
(06-27-15 15:30:57) <+[Shoegazer]> They aren't
(06-27-15 15:30:58) <+Sardaukar> you know when fringe gay activism will dwindle? when people stop having a cow when gay people are just as acceptable as hetrosexual people, when a gay wedding cake dosent rip the very tennents of their shaky faith down and ruin their world
(06-27-15 15:31:12) <+DFC> dizzy_: we were defeated but there are religious folk who can't accept defeat
(06-27-15 15:31:15) <@VirtualPreacher> [15:30] <[Shoegazer]> People fear a lot of stupid things because they don't understand separation of church and state<--------------------HA!   from the person that believes someone surrenders their first amendment rights when they open a business in spite of laws and supreme court rulings to the contrary.
(06-27-15 15:31:40) <+[Shoegazer]> I don't believe any such things. I do know a business isn't government though.
(06-27-15 15:31:47) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: Well, there's that tricky thing that businesses themselves don't have free speech rights
(06-27-15 15:31:52) <+[Shoegazer]> ^^
(06-27-15 15:32:02) <+Sardaukar> funny how VirtualPreacher is all for SC rulings that he agrees with but this latest one is quite a different matter=)
(06-27-15 15:32:04) <@VirtualPreacher> UnderCoverNerd the individuals who own businesses *do*
(06-27-15 15:32:08) <+dizzy_> DFC i wouldnt call somebody who does that religious, i'd call that crazy. if a person has that little control over their actions, its not the fault of their religion. especially when christianity teaches no such thing
(06-27-15 15:32:20) <+[Shoegazer]> those individuals aren't the government though
(06-27-15 15:32:21) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: Sure, and what speech they can facilitate through the business is limited
(06-27-15 15:32:35) <@VirtualPreacher> Sardaukar when discussing it with people who hold the SC as some kind of oracle on a mountain? yeah its instantly relevant what prior scotus decisions have held
(06-27-15 15:32:36) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: For instance, a diner cannot say "No N****** Allowed" and refuse service
(06-27-15 15:32:53) <@VirtualPreacher> UnderCoverNerd as if that has a damn thing to do with it
(06-27-15 15:32:55) <+O`Puck> VirtualPreacher, well, get back to me, when you think of something heh
(06-27-15 15:32:57) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: Yet, an individual can say that and refuse for a person to enter their private home
(06-27-15 15:32:57) <+[Shoegazer]> the first amendment applies to the government making laws.
(06-27-15 15:33:06) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: It is an instance of free speech being curbed in the business sphere
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(06-27-15 15:33:56) <+Joel> no private business is obligated to offer services that it doesn't want to offer.. that includes businesses that cater to wedding needs.. the Supreme Court is not going to force the bakery to make a gay wedding cake
(06-27-15 15:34:14) <+DFC> dizzy_: i know its not the fault of the religion but there will be those who can't accept defeat but think they are doing the LORDS work
(06-27-15 15:34:52) <+Frost> The Lord's work is to spread the gospell.
(06-27-15 15:34:56) <+dizzy_> i sure hope Christian777 hasnt had a heart attack
(06-27-15 15:34:59) <+Atomist> Individual states may force bakers to bake gay wedding cakes.
(06-27-15 15:35:06) <+Frost> gospel even.
(06-27-15 15:35:07) <+Micosil> Screw that.
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(06-27-15 15:36:01) <@VirtualPreacher> this has nothing to do with free speech the first amendment is not *only* about free speech it is about freedom of assembly, and religious liberty
(06-27-15 15:36:09) <+Sardaukar> Joel there is no such thing as a gay wedding cake, all cakes are faaaabulous=)
(06-27-15 15:36:09) <+[Shoegazer]> Interestingly enough a cake isn't facilitating a wedding
(06-27-15 15:36:10) <+Joel> Atomist: i have to believe that the state and/or federal courts would not uphold such a law, i don't see how it can be constitutional
(06-27-15 15:36:22) * +Frost sighs, again having ABBA's "Ring, Ring" stuck in his head..
(06-27-15 15:36:24) <+CharmlessMan> they could bake the cake, then write "God hates faggots" on the top
(06-27-15 15:36:38) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: Sure, and starting up a bakery and being subject to rules of business isn't an infringement on those
(06-27-15 15:36:47) <+[Shoegazer]> CharmlessMan, and then not get paid for their work!
(06-27-15 15:36:54) <+CharmlessMan> but it would be so worth it!
(06-27-15 15:36:57) <+CharmlessMan> and you could still eat the cake
(06-27-15 15:36:58) <+Micosil> [Shoegazer], interestingly enough, a person should have the right not to do something against their religious convictions.
(06-27-15 15:36:59) <+Atomist> Joel, if a resturaunt refuses to serve a black person, and claim religious reasons, the state will sanction them.
(06-27-15 15:37:06) <+Frost> Just bake gay cakes.
(06-27-15 15:37:08) <@VirtualPreacher> calling it "rules of business" is just a handwave pretending that the 1st amendment does not exist lol.
(06-27-15 15:37:09) <+UnderCoverNerd> For all bakeries currently, one rule is you can't refuse service based on race. It could happen that sexual orientation gets federal protected class too
(06-27-15 15:37:23) <+Joel> Atomist: a restaurant by its very nature serves the public.. it's not a specialized service like a wedding cake
(06-27-15 15:37:33) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: It certainly does exist! It just doesn't necessarily protect you from say, refusing to serve black people
(06-27-15 15:37:34) <+Sardaukar> in any event, I would NEVER want some religious nut homophobe making my gay cake, you never have people that hate you cook your food, its a bad idea=)
(06-27-15 15:37:47) <@VirtualPreacher> "but but but its the rules of business" then why did a colorado baker win against a lawsuit when a person tried to make her print things she did not agree with on baked goods?  "rules of business" lol
(06-27-15 15:37:50) <+Atomist> Joel, if a bakery refuses to make a wedding cake for an interracial couple...
(06-27-15 15:37:51) <+Micosil> UnderCoverNerd, here's the deal. It isn't sexual orientation per se that bakers in such a scenario have a problem with, but the /mockery/ of a union that is solely reserved for man and woman.
(06-27-15 15:37:58) <+[Shoegazer]> Micosil, cool well thankfully nothing says you can't bake a cake for a party in your bible
(06-27-15 15:37:58) <+CharmlessMan> I would guess that if they didn't know that the cake was for a gay wedding they probably wouldn't be that bothered
(06-27-15 15:38:10) <@VirtualPreacher> UnderCoverNerd i see you are stuck down in a hole repeating nonsense about racism. broken record as usual.
(06-27-15 15:38:10) <+[Shoegazer]> Only it isn't reserved just for that
(06-27-15 15:38:19) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: I would have to look at the specific case. Are you of the impression that I am saying that refusing to bake a cake is itself something that is held in this regard curently?
(06-27-15 15:38:21) <+CharmlessMan> I mean if you run a shop, you can't stop gay people buying stuff from you
(06-27-15 15:38:22) <+[Shoegazer]> I know that at one time humans decided to define it that way
(06-27-15 15:38:28) <+[Shoegazer]> but that union doesn't belong to Christians
(06-27-15 15:38:30) <+Micosil> In America, apparently not, anymore, but I go with what God says, rather than fallible human Justices.
(06-27-15 15:38:31) <+Micosil> ;)
(06-27-15 15:38:33) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: I am sorry, is racist speech not speech now?
(06-27-15 15:38:35) <+[Shoegazer]> and can therefore be whatever humans decide
(06-27-15 15:38:51) <+[Shoegazer]> God doesn't say you can't bake a cake for a same sex marriage though
(06-27-15 15:39:05) <+UnderCoverNerd> [Shoegazer]: But you are facilitating a wedding reception!!!
(06-27-15 15:39:06) <+Frost> You can easily tell if it's a gay wedding cake.  There'll be two grooms on top of the cake.
(06-27-15 15:39:09) <+Micosil> Everything doesn't have to be spelled out explicitly in the Bible, [Shoegazer].
(06-27-15 15:39:13) <+[Shoegazer]> god in fact says nothing about same sex marriage
(06-27-15 15:39:15) <+Joel> Atomist: even in the case of an interracial couple, i'm not sure it would be wise to force the business to sell a cake to them.. you don't want to do business with people who don't approve of your life
(06-27-15 15:39:20) <+Sardaukar> [Shoegazer] if you want your gay cake baked by a good bakery but they are homophobes, jsut dont thell them and buy an extra groom or bride figurine and swap them out, easy peasey
(06-27-15 15:39:27) <+[Shoegazer]> Micosil, it should probably speak explicitly to that since you claim god says these things
(06-27-15 15:39:30) <+Micosil> [Shoegazer], most Christians believe in the Trinity, God in three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, yet the word "Trinity" isn't anywhere in the NT.
(06-27-15 15:39:32) <+[Shoegazer]> that of course are never even implied
(06-27-15 15:39:37) <+UnderCoverNerd> Frost: it isn't always so easy to see. on my brothers wedding cake they got a bride and groom thing, but it looked like two brides with one in a tux *shrug*
(06-27-15 15:39:53) <@VirtualPreacher> UnderCoverNerd frankly you are one of the most dishonest debaters i've encountered in here, consistently falsely attributing positions to people to needle them and shift the goalpost, and using straw man arguments constantly. i have had you on ignore for that reason for a very long time. I only have you off ignore so I can monitor the scroll. please engage someone else with your specious devices.
(06-27-15 15:40:01) <+alonsoF_> marlene dietrich looked great in a tux
(06-27-15 15:40:08) <+Atomist> Joel, I don't think businesses should be allowed to refuse service on the basis of race, sex, religion, or sexual orientation, all else being equal.
(06-27-15 15:40:23) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: Care to point out anything dishonest I have said?
(06-27-15 15:40:41) <+Atomist> Joel, there would be exceptions (when all else is not equal). A Catholic wedding baker, for example.
(06-27-15 15:40:43) <@VirtualPreacher> i've done that so many times already there is no point anymore.
(06-27-15 15:40:46) <+Sardaukar> UnderCoverNerd so that translates to, ok you crushed my arguments now i dont want to talk anymore???
(06-27-15 15:40:47) <+Joel> Atomist: when it comes to a restaurant or any business that sells general use products, they can't discriminate.. but a wedding cake is a personalized product
(06-27-15 15:41:04) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: Really? Where in this chat have you done so?
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(06-27-15 15:41:12) <+UnderCoverNerd> Sardaukar: yup
(06-27-15 15:41:13) <+Atomist> Joel, why does that distinction matter?
(06-27-15 15:41:16) <+Frost> We had a couple girls come to school in tuxedoes back in Jr. High.  They were pretty hot.
(06-27-15 15:41:32) <@VirtualPreacher> Sardaukar no actually it translates into exactly what I just said. he lies, continually in debates. that is not debating, its simply lying.
(06-27-15 15:41:37) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: I do love how, over and over again, you cannot respond to arguments, and instead have to go meta and whine about how you feel i am just so gosh darned dishonest :(
(06-27-15 15:41:40) <+Joel> Atomist: because a personalized product has to be something the business specializes in.. if they aren't comfy with gay relationships, they probably shouldn't be selling gay wedding cakes
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(06-27-15 15:41:49) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: point out my lies
(06-27-15 15:41:51) <+alonsoF_> Frost:  now you know what androgyny means
(06-27-15 15:41:54) <+Frost> They weren't gay, tho.
(06-27-15 15:42:07) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: I have not lied once here, accusing me of lying is VERY dishonest
(06-27-15 15:42:10) <+Sardaukar> VirtualPreacher he dosent lie, he sometimes really angers me too but lying isnt one of the complaints=)
(06-27-15 15:42:25) <@VirtualPreacher> UnderCoverNerd in this chat? I havent. the last time was a few days ago, when I cited about half a dozen lies from your statements. i'm not going there again. there is no point in debating such a dishonest person imo.
(06-27-15 15:42:27) <@S|J_McPherson> UnderCoverNerd and Sardaukar enough and move on
(06-27-15 15:42:34) <+Atomist> Joel, why shouldn't they be required to, regardless?
(06-27-15 15:42:47) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: Point out a single dishonest thing I have said in this chat
(06-27-15 15:43:10) <+Sardaukar> S|J_McPherson , VirtualPreacher is engaging us, how about some honesty there
(06-27-15 15:43:30) <+Joel> Atomist: they should be allowed to define what their business is, and the gay couple should want to find a competitor who actually desires their business.. it's their money, and their once-in-a-lifetime wedding, why spend it at a place that doesn't cater to your needs?
(06-27-15 15:43:55) <+CharmlessMan> Joel: just to hack them off :)
(06-27-15 15:44:00) <+alonsoF_> Joel:  and why open a bakery only to foolishly turn away business
(06-27-15 15:44:08) <+UnderCoverNerd> VirtualPreacher: What is amusing is that by making these false accusations, especially so speciously int his chat, shows you to be the liar. Maybe don't project onto others?
(06-27-15 15:44:12) <+Sardaukar> Joel you have some points
(06-27-15 15:44:13) * +Frost nearly drools, thinking about Taco Bell, just hoping the sister returns quickly enough so the food doesn't have to be reheated in the mickeywave yet again.
(06-27-15 15:44:14) <+Joel> alonsoF_: yeah i dunno, if i were a baker i'd be happy to make a gay wedding cake
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(06-27-15 15:44:23) <+Atomist> Joel, you're telling the gay couple what they should or shouldn't seek out. Now, maybe they won't get as nice a cake. But if they go in and ask for a cake from a baker who makes wedding cakes, why shouldn't that baker be required to serve them? Why should the baker be allowed to discriminate?
(06-27-15 15:44:25) <+CharmlessMan> it's not the cake that's gay, just the icing
(06-27-15 15:44:28) * You were kicked by VirtualPreacher (maybe move on when asked)
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