23:00 RenaissanceMan
On the plus side, eroding the constitution seems to be distracting him from A. war in Iran. But if I were Carl Rove, I would be insisting on a war before the elections. Wartime presidents and all. That's got to be good for at least 7%.
Publios
I've never seen Banquo share anything of that kind in here. If he does it will be dealt with
23:00 Publios
and no, that is not an invitation to share logs about Banquo
K-Pax
Publios: If you learned that a person shared pernicious anti-Jewish conspiracy theories, what specific steps would you take?
23:00 Publios
K-Pax:  nothing. If they shared such things in channel they would likely be devoiced for a time
K-Pax
Publios: That seems pretty morally weak.
23:01 Publios
ok
K-Pax
Publios: So, you'd continue having a friendship in chat with a person known to have shared pernicious anti-Jewish conspiracy theories?
K-Pax
Publios: I can go first, as an atheist:
K-Pax
"I will not have friendships with people who share pernicious anti-Jewish conspiracy theories."
RenaissanceMan
Seems to me there's a pretty clear ethical principle at work tere. So not THAT morally weak.
Publios
K-Pax:  ok
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K-Pax
"I recognize that Jews are the target of substantial terrorism in the United States, and that the spreading of pernicious anti-Jewish conspiracy theories on Dalnet plays an important role in that terrorism."
K-Pax
Publios: You refuse to answer my question?
Publios
K-Pax:  I don't really care to engage in a virtue signalling urine contest, no
K-Pax
Publios: Do you agree all available evidence, so far, indicates I am more moral than you?
K-Pax
Publios: Thank you.
K-Pax
I have no further need to interact with you after that post of yours.
K-Pax
You do not have moral authority.
RenaissanceMan
Publios: Quite the intersting read you gave me. Thanks. It's amazing what a difference 250 years makes in terms of historical visibility.  A fantastical gory tale, with clear parallels to the nicene controversy, which is obviously more of the same.
TrollT
Perhaps your conversation with K-Pax can be taken to #christianops.
K-Pax
Can you imagine responding to a person claiming one of your friends shares pernicious anti-Jewish conspiracy theories with "that's not an invitation to share the logs" and considering it a "virtue signalling [sic] urine contest".
K-Pax
TrollT: Why do you feel that is appropriate?
K-Pax
The current topic would seem to be 'morality', which fits nicely into the nature of this channel.
TrollT
ULF, Not really. I have found MMA interesting at points.
K-Pax
I agree that one of the participants in that conversation about morality is an operator.
TrollT
ULF, Thank you for your advice.
RenaissanceMan
I thought the topic was virtue signalling urine contests. But maybe I missed a bit.
RenaissanceMan
I just finished peeing, so I'm at a huge disadvantage.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: Are you being factitious?
TrollT
Me too.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: The topic was about moral authority, initially.
K-Pax
Specifically, what duties do we have to listen to the claims of others on morality if we believe they do not have moral authority.
K-Pax
So, for example, the Dalai Lama, as a Buddhist, is a highly non-violent person. Say he said that violence was justified in some situation, which he has.
K-Pax
Then, somebody who is more violent than him attempt to remind him to try and be peaceful.
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TrollT
I did't see that in the channel guidelines, ULF. I did see something about moderator standards, about the presumed definitions for 'lie' and 'God' (at least Trinitarian unless otherwise specified).
K-Pax
That would be pretty foolish, in the general case, as the Dalai Lama is the teacher on that topic.
RenaissanceMan
K-Frac: <checks the definiition> Sure. I'll go with factitious. I wasn't actually being facetious.
K-Pax
I made an error. I meant facetious.
TrollT
Antagonical and meanions! Beautiful.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: Are you currently on alcohol or other mind-altering substances?
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: I'm not sure that pro-hominem arguments are actually better than ad-hominem arguments.
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: I am not.
RenaissanceMan
But factitious is a nice word.
K-Pax
TrollT: Why didn't you address my question?
RenaissanceMan
Surely it depends on the quality of the argument, not the person making it.
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K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: Pre-argument, do you think we should take into context the previously demonstrated qualities of the speaker, especially in the case that we're unlikely to have enough time or cognitive resources to fully engage that argument?
K-Pax
In an ideal world, with infinite computation, sure, the argument alone would be sufficient.
K-Pax
We do not...*checks notes*... have infinite computation, however.
K-Pax
I can provide an analogy:
RenaissanceMan
The Dalai Lama being a magnificent example. On the one hand, some remarkably lucid arguments, and a remarkable talent for combining lightness of being with deep insight. On the other, he's a leader of a religious organization that opposes birth control and abortions for tibetans (although he's perfectly content with westerners using birth control).
K-Pax
You have a current understanding of physics. There is a person who is the leading physicist at MIT teaching a concept in physics you've heard about. Her teachings differ than your current understanding. Should your initial response be:
K-Pax
1) A reminder to the teacher they may have forgotten something you understand, or
TrollT
RenMan, Same with homosexuality.
K-Pax
2) A question in the form of, "Well, that's interesting, because that differs from my current understanding. Can you clarify that for me."
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: The specific qualities of the Dalai Lama don't seem especially relevant to my point.
K-Pax
You're pointing that he is not a moral expert on all facets of morality, which is obviously true.
K-Pax
I was providing him as an example of excellence on non-violence, since it's such a core trait of Buddhist theory.
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RenaissanceMan
Right. what to make of a man who extends a liberal face to the west, and a conserative one to the people over whom he has actual power.
K-Pax
And that when a leader in such a lineage supports violence, we, as a person who is considerably more violent than the speaker, shouldn't reflexively respond with cliches about being non-violent, as it's likely the speaker already thought about that.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: That appears to be a non sequitur.
TrollT
No, he understands those things to include harm.
TrollT
And he has vows to oppose harm within his sangha.
TrollT
Like parishioners who oppose sin within their church.
K-Pax
My point is extremely basic, and only intentional misunderstanding can lead to a failure to understand it.
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: it was a sequitur to something that TrollT said.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: That could be true.
K-Pax
If you believe the time for acquisition of knowledge is relevant in regards to a human life span, then some humans will have knowledge that others do not.
K-Pax
If that is the case, we should alter our initial dispositions based off knowledge of the speaker.
K-Pax
Ultimately, the knowledge itself on the topic being addressed is decisive, of course.
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: what point are we aiming for? I'm having a hard time following.
K-Pax
If that is the case, we should alter our initial dispositions based off knowledge of the speaker.
K-Pax
That is my point I'm aiming for.
K-Pax
I can now apply it specifically to the interaction with Publios.
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: Are there people who are completely ignorable? Of course.
K-Pax
I am more moral than Publios by a very large margin. Him reminding me to be more moral, without understanding the nuances of my speech is inappropriate.
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K-Pax
Evidence for my higher rate of morality is in my orientation towards people who spread pernicious anti-Jewish conspiracy theories versus his response.
K-Pax
So, he should ask me a question as to why I called ULF rotten, rather than reflexively reminding me of ad hominem theory.
RenaissanceMan
Publios: Right. I was hoping somehow for a more general insight. lol.
K-Pax
Which, of course, I'm familiar with, as I'm more moral.
K-Pax
Like the Dalai Lama and non-violence.
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K-Pax
I can still be immoral in any particular case, be the default is that I'm being more moral than Publios when I called ULF rotten.
RenaissanceMan
With dark understone of mysogyny and homophobia? Like the dalai llama?
K-Pax
And that he doesn't yet understand that.
K-Pax
Specifically, I reject the cosmopolitan notion of 'treat everybody with respect, at all times, no matter their offenses'. I reject this knowingly after investigating it and recognizing it is less moral than an alternative.
K-Pax
Instead, I recognize the internet is a vast battlefield where all the key factions of our species are fighting for domination of Earth.
RenaissanceMan
There's also a question of whether he is actually non-violent or merely disengaged.  It's a really interesting question: whether the Dallai Lama is moral or not.
K-Pax
I recognize that the lies spread by ULF literally come from right-wing, international white supremacy sources that they're spreading here in their war.
TrollT
He eats pork butties, RenMan.
K-Pax
If the goal is to address such incompatibilities with free civilization without violence, then we need to increase our usage of non-violent tools.
RenaissanceMan
I mean I get it. There you are, the reincarnated embodiment of a culture and and a people who are being horribly oppressed by a violent and unjust foreing occupation.
K-Pax
This is entirely inline with Karl Poppers teachings on the 'paradox of intolerance', as well as the key notions in John Rawls' reconceptualization of liberal society.
RenaissanceMan
Compare the Dalai Lama's use of non-violence to, oh I dunno, Gandhi!
RenaissanceMan
Well. Ok. that was obvious. Ghandi. Who used non-violence to effect change.
K-Pax
Specifically, people like myself, who have all the power of Western thought to have impeccable speech free of fallacy, should be comfortable using all method of speech to resist such illiberalism before the rifle becomes necessary.
TrollT
RenMan, Solidify your h's.
K-Pax
If ULF's faction wins, it will literally result in vast pogroms across the surface of the Earth in which many vulnerable groups will be terminated.
K-Pax
This is what ULF is attempting to do int his Christian channel.
K-Pax
And that is a rotten thing to do.
RenaissanceMan
What change has the Dalai Lama effected with non-violence
K-Pax
And a person who does such a thing is a rotten person.
RenaissanceMan
Ghhhhandi! :-)
K-Pax
And so I acknowledged reality as it is, not as I wish to it be.
K-Pax
Now, if, at least, Publios had the ability to condemn the far worse crime of spreading pernicious anti-Jewish conspiracy theories, compared to the mundane 'ad hominem', then there'd be a coherency to his position.
K-Pax
Maybe my approach could work, but maybe his approach could work. It's quite hard to decide between policy variations in this manner, as they're both optimized for different, valuable goals that both sides agree in.
james_-
dems, libs, evangelicals are all such by choice, Jews don't get to choose to be Jewish
K-Pax
But that is not what Publios is doing.
K-Pax
And so his position can be rejected out of hand.
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: on the other hand, you could teach in the same way that a thoughtful parent teaches. By modelling good behviour.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: You must have missed something.
K-Pax
I am currently modeling good behavior as a parent does.
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: I mean sure, you can isolate them, and quarntine them and turn them into shopping mall shooters. But maybe a better approach is to just model how grownups behave.
K-Pax
With you and TrollT, who are behaving reasonably, I'm speaking with precision and no fallacies.
K-Pax
Because you're in the circle of free civilization.
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james_-
ULF, that may be why some are attacking you for your anti Jewish beliefs and statements but not attacking you for your anti evangelical or anti dem or anti lib statements
K-Pax
Simultaneously, I am calling ULF rotten for spreading white supremacy conspiracy theories that will result in pogroms.
K-Pax
This demonstrates that I have the self-control to not do that, which means his views must be really bad.
K-Pax
Like the Dalai Lama on advocating violence.
james_-
typically people have a problem when others attack people over things they cannot choose, like race, ethnicity, sexuality etc.
K-Pax
He must really mean it in that case.
K-Pax
Furthermore, I'm not just modeling the behavior, but I articulated a detailed theory of human civilization as the basis for my policy.
K-Pax
This is a sublime parenting disposition.
TrollT
People don't choose what sex they are born.
RenaissanceMan
To be perfectly honest, I admire Publios for having the moral fortitude not to put ULF on ignore.
K-Pax
I wish to avoid using violence on ULF's faction, and so we need to use more non-violent methods of restraining them. Straightforward.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: Why is it desirable to not ignore ULF?
james_-
ULF, sexuality is enormously complex to the point that to glibly suggest it is a rational choice is to misunderstand it
K-Pax
james_-: Earlier, ULF said this:
TrollT
Excellent argument ULF.
K-Pax
"K-Pax: what we have to worry is about that extremist democrat base, Jared Kushner is just the face, behind Him are Obama, Hillary, Kissinger, Netanyahu, Sanders, and the rest of the gang"
james_-
one exception in one category has not explanitory power to describe literally millions of people worldwide
james_-
not=no
K-Pax
That is, ULF thinks Jared Kushner, Netanyahu, and Kissinger are part of the "extremist democrat base".
K-Pax
Given that, james_-, on what basis do you consider anything ULF says on any topic?
james_-
just because one person thinks they are a lawn mower doesn't mean therefore that being gay is a choice
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: For someone who claims to be modelling good beahviour as a parent does, I'm surprised you have to ask why Publios shows moral fortitude by not ignoring ULF>
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: I am finding this to be one of the worst debate sessions you've participated in.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: So, you are unwilling to expound on claims you make, then?
TrollT
Ultimately all Christians are self-proclaimed.
K-Pax
That is anathema to good dialogue, of course.
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: We seem to have a track record of progessively worse and worse debate sessions for some reason.
james_-
KPax, I've already debated ULF many times on this theory of his that folks like that are democrats, I think it's insane on its face, but the anti semitic dimension is obviously present there as well
TrollT
RenMan, Insufficient /ignore and moderation.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: Expounding on points you make when asked to do so would be a good way to change course.
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: Seems to coincide for some reason with the points at which we choose to disagree.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: We can establish a code of dialogue we agree to adhere to.
K-Pax
Are you interested in doing that?
james_-
ULF argues that only recently Kushner became a republican, and therefore must be an obvious democrat his whole life, yet in the same breath he lumps Bernie Sanders into the evil democrat cabal even though only recently Sanders registered as a democrat
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: Sure. Letst start with 1) don't compalin about how progressivel worse our debate sessions get whenever I disagree with you. ;-)
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: There are billions of sources of content on available on the internet. One of them is ULF in this channel. I cannot possibly consume even the slightest fraction of those sources. Why is it admirable for a person to continue consuming a source they've identify is objectionable?
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: I did not do that.
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: Because there is always hope that people can improve.
james_-
no, ULF's conservatism is weirdly principled and consistent in many ways, but looming over his worldview is some obvious antisemitism, which makes me think that he's influenced by one or two specific talk show hosts or bloggers or public access tv show people are something like that
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: By consuming a bad source with the hope they can improve, I am paying a price for a possible, future reward, yes?
K-Pax
Surely I'll need to make tradeoffs in that space versus other sources of content I can encounter.
RenaissanceMan
MissBliss: No. You are far worse. Your strategy of being studiously reasonable and unobjectionable is infinitely more infuriating. Truly diabolical.
RenaissanceMan
MissBliss: :-P
RenaissanceMan
j/k just to make sure.
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K-Pax
james_-: It appears that ULF is participating in a cult of personality.
ForexTrader
RenaissanceMan smetimes i feel u are... AdrameleK
ForexTrader
and badwolf
K-Pax
Generally, when people are participating in a cult of personality, it seems, there is an unstated social or psychological need(s) that are being met by that cutl.
K-Pax
The most common social need served by Trump for his supporters is white supremacy.
james_-
my theory is that he's deeply influenced by one or two specific political/religious/social commentators that nobody else here has ever heard of
ForexTrader
are white people superior?
K-Pax
The most common psychological need is a recognition of feeling 'left out' by a society which doesn't desire personalities that they have.
RenaissanceMan
ForexTrader: Badwolf and I do have a lot in common. A Dear Old Queen, in particular. And a fondness for british humor.
ForexTrader
if we are to think about it deeply
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: What grade would you give yourself on the 'teacher' topic?
ForexTrader
RenaissanceMan both u lot are tw0ts.. according to wikipedia
RenaissanceMan
On which topic?
K-Pax
"'teacher'"
RenaissanceMan
ForexTrader: Nailed it. :-)
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K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: I cannot tell if you're now being intentionally obtuse.
K-Pax
I mean, I literally highlighted the name of the topic with a special syntax.
K-Pax
This interaction with you as been pretty disappointing RenaissanceMan.
K-Pax
You're one of the few people on Dalnet that I respect for your consistent intelligence and morality.
K-Pax
I give you an F on the 'teacher' topic.
RenaissanceMan
Refresh my memory. What is the "teacher" topic. For the record I think I pretty much admitted that I always ignore ULF. So nota lot of teaching there. But taht doesn't mean I can't admire Publios for not ignoring ULF anyway.
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K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: You introduced a topic, and when asked by your chat participant to expound, you refused to expound, and employed a mystical and anti-intellectual device in the form of 'If you don't already know, you'll never know'.
K-Pax
Then, I provided a key alternative to your model in that space, which you never synthesized with your initial offering.
RenaissanceMan
ULF: You're off ignore temporarily, seeing as you're a particular focus of discussion this evening. But honestly, usually you're on ignore.
K-Pax
Both of these are core intellectual duties known for over 2300 years that apply to all people in the lineage of Socrates and Plato.
RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: Are you sure you haven't confused me with someone you were having a discussion with before I arrived.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: You have exhausted the surprisingly high patience I have for you, given your previous exemplary behavior.
K-Pax
I will engage you again in one day.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan -= 1