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lecture on tulpas

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  1. Apr 03 13:58:19 <Pleeb> Okay, yes... This channel was actually used at one point when discussions would get too fast, we'd spill them off into #tulpa_subc.
  2. Apr 03 13:58:22 * Ukurereh (~u291187@Rizon-4716EA1E.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #tulpa_subc
  3. Apr 03 13:58:28 <Pleeb> So I figured it's time to bring the channel back.
  4. Apr 03 13:59:06 <Pleeb> Anyway, what I said was, I believe that not only is a tulpa seperate from their host, but they are a full mind, just like your mind,
  5. Apr 03 13:59:16 <Pleeb> And the only difference between you and your tulpa is that you were there first.
  6. Apr 03 14:00:13 <Pleeb> Anyway, I'll get into why I believe that.
  7. Apr 03 14:00:42 <Pleeb> Basically, some days ago during spring break, I was in .info, and someone asked, "How can you kill a tulpa?"
  8. Apr 03 14:01:34 <Pleeb> (sorry for slow response, was finishing discussion in .info; back now, with full attention in here)
  9. Apr 03 14:01:39 <DarkAnima> Did the physical structure of the brain change with the creation of the tulpa?
  10. Apr 03 14:01:45 <Pleeb> I'll get to that.
  11. Apr 03 14:01:49 <DarkAnima> Therefore making it impossible?
  12. Apr 03 14:01:55 <Pleeb> Ahh, that's a good question.
  13. Apr 03 14:03:11 <Pleeb> To answer the 'killing tulpa' part, you'd have to understand how the mind actually works. And this is a good subject to base the lecture on, because I can draw some interesting comparasons between tulpae and non-tulpae (which I will), and ultimately answer the 'can you kill a tulpa' question, as well as the generalized, "Can you kill a mind?" question.
  14. Apr 03 14:03:26 <Pleeb> The short answer is 'yes, but improbable', btw.
  15. Apr 03 14:03:56 <Pleeb> But before I get into that, I'd like to discuss the mind in relation to the neural network.
  16. Apr 03 14:04:20 <Pleeb> As I asked in .info: What exactly is a mind?
  17. Apr 03 14:04:35 <Pleeb> Well, your mind is a bunch of patterns in that neural network of yours.
  18. Apr 03 14:05:27 <Pleeb> Your neural network is huge; recall that anology that Asgardian, who's current a neuroscience grad, gave:
  19. Apr 03 14:05:32 <Pleeb> < Asgardian> The brain is one gigantic network with more active units than stars in our goddamn galaxy and enough connections to reach every one of it with three turns.
  20. Apr 03 14:05:57 <Pleeb> At any given time, you've got more neurons firing in the brain than there are stars in the night sky.
  21. Apr 03 14:06:20 <Pleeb> And your neural network, all the time, is constantly creating new connections, changing old connections, and decaying unused connections.
  22. Apr 03 14:06:37 <Pleeb> A good example is when you write with your left or right hand.
  23. Apr 03 14:07:07 <Pleeb> When you're right-handed, what's controlling those movements and precision is a network in the left side of your brain.
  24. Apr 03 14:07:46 <Pleeb> That is, there's a network of neurons firing certain ways to control how to use those muscles; this is how know to write with your right hand.
  25. Apr 03 14:08:00 <Pleeb> But what about your left? Say you never really wrote with your left hand before. What happens when you try?
  26. Apr 03 14:08:19 <Pleeb> It's usually pretty messy, or hard to read, might even be stressful trying to write with your left hand
  27. Apr 03 14:08:36 <Pleeb> This is because the networks for writing with your left hand don't actually exist.
  28. Apr 03 14:09:01 <Catalyst> where do the processes go if you learn to write with your left hand after ? that's interesting.
  29. Apr 03 14:09:06 <lanpc|forcing> can they be built up with practice then?
  30. Apr 03 14:09:15 <Pleeb> So what do you do? You start getting those 1st grade handwriting books, and start learning how to write with your left hand.
  31. Apr 03 14:09:25 <Pleeb> That's a good question; where will the processes go?
  32. Apr 03 14:09:40 <Pleeb> Well, about two years ago, I used to use the QWERTY keyboard layout (as most of you do),
  33. Apr 03 14:09:48 <Pleeb> And I decided to switch to Dvorak.
  34. Apr 03 14:10:05 <Pleeb> To make a long story short, I stopped using QWERTY, and started using Dvorak.
  35. Apr 03 14:10:15 <Pleeb> Today, I cannot type on qwerty without looking at the labels.
  36. Apr 03 14:10:20 <Pleeb> But I can touch-type with dvorak very well.
  37. Apr 03 14:10:36 <Pleeb> What happen was, those networks that were for typing with qwerty were overwritten by the information for typing on dvorak.
  38. Apr 03 14:10:48 <Pleeb> However, let's take the left vs right hand thing.
  39. Apr 03 14:11:05 <Pleeb> In your brain, you have two hemispheres; left and right.
  40. Apr 03 14:11:16 <Pleeb> Both actually process data differently, too.
  41. Apr 03 14:11:38 <Pleeb> The left hemisphere processess data logically, one at a time, in an analytical fashion.
  42. Apr 03 14:12:11 <Pleeb> The right processess data differently, usually more abstractly, with processing chucks of it at the same time, asynchronously.
  43. Apr 03 14:12:51 <Pleeb> Things like solving math problems or sudoko? That's utilized by your left side of the brain. Things like visualization and spatial recoqnition? That's right-side.
  44. Apr 03 14:12:58 <Pleeb> I digress.
  45. Apr 03 14:13:10 <Pleeb> The left side of your brain ends up controlling the right of your body.
  46. Apr 03 14:13:16 <Pleeb> And the right side of your brain ends up controlling the left.
  47. Apr 03 14:13:30 <Pleeb> This is why the networks for writing with your right hand are in the left side of the brain.
  48. Apr 03 14:13:57 <Pleeb> For someone who is right-handed, they wouldn't have much lighting up in the right side of their brain, at least where a network for writing with the left hand would go.
  49. Apr 03 14:14:21 <Pleeb> Thus, when you learn to write with your left hand, you will be creating new networks -- that weren't previously there -- in the right side of your brain.
  50. Apr 03 14:14:24 <Pleeb> Still with me?
  51. Apr 03 14:14:31 <Tom[Cas]> Yup
  52. Apr 03 14:14:37 <lanpc|forcing> yessir
  53. Apr 03 14:14:59 <Pleeb> Very good!
  54. Apr 03 14:15:03 <DarkAnima> My tup likes the left side more maybe thats a reason^^
  55. Apr 03 14:15:17 <DarkAnima> Seems left handed so far
  56. Apr 03 14:15:25 <Pleeb> Now, this is how your network genenerally works.
  57. Apr 03 14:15:35 <kerin> This was Psychology 100 when I did it at UWA in 1980.
  58. Apr 03 14:15:55 <lanpc|forcing> bit of background info im guessing
  59. Apr 03 14:15:58 <Pleeb> And it's interesting, there are a lot of skills you'd be able to learn that would 'light up' the leff or right side of the brain more.
  60. Apr 03 14:16:13 <Pleeb> kerin: It's worth explainng for those who didn't hear it before, however.
  61. Apr 03 14:16:30 <kerin> Not objecting. Agreeing. Sorry.
  62. Apr 03 14:16:35 <Pleeb> Ah, okay ^^
  63. Apr 03 14:16:53 <Pleeb> But to get back on target here,
  64. Apr 03 14:17:15 <Pleeb> Since the networks for left vs right hands are on two seperate sides of the brain,
  65. Apr 03 14:17:35 <Pleeb> You won't be overwriting the old information with the new; you'd have created a new network that wasn't previously there.
  66. Apr 03 14:17:58 <Pleeb> So does anyone know why that didn't happen when I learned Dvorak? Why was QWERTY overwritten?
  67. Apr 03 14:18:08 <Tom[Cas]> Because you use both hands
  68. Apr 03 14:18:12 <Pleeb> ^
  69. Apr 03 14:18:17 <kerin> Yep
  70. Apr 03 14:18:30 <kerin> touch typing reflex
  71. Apr 03 14:18:33 <Pleeb> I used both hands. The networks on the left side for typing on the right side of my keyboard on QWERTY were overwritten,
  72. Apr 03 14:18:36 <Pleeb> And vice versa.
  73. Apr 03 14:18:50 <Pleeb> Now, I could have actually retained QWERTY,
  74. Apr 03 14:19:06 <Pleeb> I could have switched between them, and used them both consisitantly (I still could if I wanted to)
  75. Apr 03 14:19:18 <Pleeb> The networks would have adapted, and started creating new connections.
  76. Apr 03 14:19:24 <Pleeb> Allowed me to do both.
  77. Apr 03 14:19:28 <kerin> Like manual or automatic cars
  78. Apr 03 14:20:02 <kerin> If you use both both are usefull
  79. Apr 03 14:20:08 <Pleeb> Yeah.
  80. Apr 03 14:20:15 <Pleeb> That's generally how your neural network works.
  81. Apr 03 14:20:29 <Pleeb> So what happens when you do something like creating a tulpa?
  82. Apr 03 14:20:54 <Pleeb> Well, as I said, I believe that a tulpa is a full mind, and I believe that you're utilizing the same mechanics that created your own mind (more on that in a moment).
  83. Apr 03 14:20:55 <Tom[Cas]> I'm going to guess you create new connections
  84. Apr 03 14:21:05 <Pleeb> Exactly.
  85. Apr 03 14:21:27 <Pleeb> When a tulpa is created, new connections are made. As I said, your mind is just a bunch of patterns 'living' in your neural network.
  86. Apr 03 14:21:29 <Catalyst> right next to the existing ones ?
  87. Apr 03 14:21:34 <kerin> Certainly I've noticed new associations being created in memory
  88. Apr 03 14:21:42 <Pleeb> The tulpa is also a bunch of patterns created next to the ones you have.
  89. Apr 03 14:21:44 <Tom[Cas]> Likewise
  90. Apr 03 14:22:01 <Pleeb> And when I get into memory and stuff, that'll come up again.
  91. Apr 03 14:22:10 <Pleeb> On the creation process,
  92. Apr 03 14:22:18 * DarkAnima has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  93. Apr 03 14:22:25 <Pleeb> Most tulpae will agree that attention and narration are very important.
  94. Apr 03 14:22:30 * DarkAnima (~Chris@Rizon-662A7EA2.netcologne.de) has joined #tulpa_subc
  95. Apr 03 14:22:34 <Pleeb> DA:
  96. Apr 03 14:22:37 <Tom[Cas]> [+1]
  97. Apr 03 14:22:40 <Pleeb> What was the last thing you saw?
  98. Apr 03 14:22:44 <DarkAnima> Argh disconnect did I miss something?
  99. Apr 03 14:22:48 <DarkAnima> <Tom[Cas]> Likewise
  100. Apr 03 14:23:08 <Pleeb> 08:22 <@Pleeb> And when I get into memory and stuff, that'll come up again.
  101. Apr 03 14:23:08 <Pleeb> 08:22 <@Pleeb> On the creation process,
  102. Apr 03 14:23:08 <Pleeb> 08:22 -!- DarkAnima [~Chris@Rizon-662A7EA2.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
  103. Apr 03 14:23:12 <Pleeb> 08:22 <@Pleeb> Most tulpae will agree that attention and narration are very important.
  104. Apr 03 14:23:49 <Pleeb> Give me a sec, I might be able to get Asgardian himself in here.
  105. Apr 03 14:24:16 <Pleeb> Well, while I wait on that... Let's continue.
  106. Apr 03 14:24:21 <Mancer[Sasha]> [I think loving and caring are the most important, everything else follows]
  107. Apr 03 14:24:34 <DarkAnima> That includes attention
  108. Apr 03 14:24:46 <Tom[Cas]> [All this talk has made me think, creating a tulpa is much like raising a baby. It would certainly help newbies understand why they don't get instant responses]
  109. Apr 03 14:24:52 <Pleeb> Breaking away from the neouroscience aspect for just a moment, I'd like to touch on something else with devolpemntal psychology.
  110. Apr 03 14:25:04 <Pleeb> "creating a tulpa is much like raising a baby"
  111. Apr 03 14:25:09 <Pleeb> I like this anology, and I'll say why.
  112. Apr 03 14:25:17 <Pleeb> Are you sapient when you're first born?
  113. Apr 03 14:25:17 <DarkAnima> Tom thats kinda how i see it too
  114. Apr 03 14:25:38 <Pleeb> How conscious are you? How devolped is your mind?
  115. Apr 03 14:25:42 <DarkAnima> Babys just with a much faster developement
  116. Apr 03 14:26:14 <Pleeb> Let's consider when a child is raised,
  117. Apr 03 14:26:30 <Pleeb> They are getting attention from their parents, they are taking input from the world,
  118. Apr 03 14:26:58 <Pleeb> People are talking to them, caring for them, in a sense, these people are being 'tulpaforced' as they're raised.
  119. Apr 03 14:27:02 <Pleeb> By their parents.
  120. Apr 03 14:27:08 <Pleeb> This is what I think builds their sapience.
  121. Apr 03 14:27:12 <DarkAnima> I've read that somewhere on here somewhere
  122. Apr 03 14:27:19 <DarkAnima> oops
  123. Apr 03 14:27:20 <DarkAnima> double
  124. Apr 03 14:27:24 <Pleeb> Probably from me.
  125. Apr 03 14:27:38 <Pleeb> Consider feral children.
  126. Apr 03 14:27:56 * Asgardian (~chatzilla@Rizon-B1A4F9C5.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #tulpa_subc
  127. Apr 03 14:27:58 <Pleeb> They're unable to talk, for instance.
  128. Apr 03 14:28:06 <DarkAnima> I thought those cannot survive?
  129. Apr 03 14:28:24 <DarkAnima> Without social interactions they die
  130. Apr 03 14:28:32 <Mancer[Sasha]> but a tulpa develops many times faster than a child does
  131. Apr 03 14:28:34 <Pleeb> There has been cases, but these people, they end up seeming to only work instictively, like an animal.
  132. Apr 03 14:28:37 <Tom[Cas]> I haven't read any cases of such, but it's even more intriguing if that's true Dark
  133. Apr 03 14:28:42 <DarkAnima> At least that's what I've heard from my teacher
  134. Apr 03 14:28:57 <Pleeb> There aren't many cases of feral children.
  135. Apr 03 14:29:19 <Tom[Cas]> Morally corrupt experiments, here we come
  136. Apr 03 14:29:21 <lanpc|forcing> probably because a tulpa can use a mature brain as a base as compared to a kid's brain? mancer
  137. Apr 03 14:29:27 <Pleeb> Because, yeah, you need that social interaction. But the few there are, they're usually unable to ever speak, or show any sort of intelligence past an animal a lot of the time.
  138. Apr 03 14:29:48 <Asgardian> They die without all social interaction, but "animal parents" are a kind of social interaction, just inferior by human standarts.
  139. Apr 03 14:29:48 <DarkAnima> Lanpc but younger tulpas seem more immature for whatever reason
  140. Apr 03 14:29:58 <Pleeb> Well, you have to remember, when a non-tulpa is being raised, it only has external influence and whatever it has internally, gonig for it.
  141. Apr 03 14:30:05 <Asgardian> Regarding the feral children, that is.
  142. Apr 03 14:30:42 <Pleeb> A tulpa already has a bunch of networks in your brain (e.g. lanugage) to go on, plus close association with the creator, all intenal.
  143. Apr 03 14:30:45 <Pleeb> internal*
  144. Apr 03 14:30:53 <Pleeb> So that could be why they'd develope faster.
  145. Apr 03 14:31:18 <Pleeb> Anyway, back to the neuroscience aspect of this.
  146. Apr 03 14:31:31 <Tom[Cas]> Cas has spent days pouring over my memories.
  147. Apr 03 14:31:43 <Mancer[Sasha]> since it takes ears to learn a language, I think it's reasonable to assume the tulpae and the host share neural connections
  148. Apr 03 14:31:55 <Pleeb> I think they share some too.
  149. Apr 03 14:32:11 <Pleeb> It's how they can speak english, or learn to type so quickly via possession.
  150. Apr 03 14:32:24 <Pleeb> Your mind taps into writing things down, so can your tulpa.
  151. Apr 03 14:32:35 <Pleeb> Anyway,
  152. Apr 03 14:33:03 <Pleeb> When a network is not being used for a long time, let's say you're no longer writing with your right hand anymore. What happens to the network?
  153. Apr 03 14:33:28 <Pleeb> (asgardian, I know you don't like this example due to the nature of /those/ networks, but you know where I'm getting at, so let's say a really, really, really, long time :p)
  154. Apr 03 14:33:29 <Tom[Cas]> It decays
  155. Apr 03 14:33:33 <Pleeb> ^
  156. Apr 03 14:33:42 <Asgardian> :P
  157. Apr 03 14:33:45 <Pleeb> Yes, the network decays, it will eventually.
  158. Apr 03 14:33:54 <Pleeb> If there's nothing going to it, those connections fade.
  159. Apr 03 14:34:04 <Pleeb> Now, say you have a new born tulpa.
  160. Apr 03 14:34:16 <Pleeb> Its got its own connections, though they're not nearly as strong as your own mind is.
  161. Apr 03 14:34:29 <Pleeb> Most of its activity is coming from you paying attention to it.
  162. Apr 03 14:34:42 <Pleeb> That narration, that attention, that belief that it is its own being.
  163. Apr 03 14:35:01 <Pleeb> These keep its network active, and this keeps building it up.
  164. Apr 03 14:35:23 <Pleeb> What happens when you stop paying all attention to it for a long time, and the activity dies down or is gone altogether?
  165. Apr 03 14:35:33 <Pleeb> Those networks the tulpa 'lives in' will begin to fade.
  166. Apr 03 14:35:51 <Pleeb> This is why attention is important.
  167. Apr 03 14:36:18 <Pleeb> Now, please bear in mind, it's very hard to kill a tulpa completely, just like it's hard to kill a mind in general.
  168. Apr 03 14:36:24 <Pleeb> I'll get to why in a few.
  169. Apr 03 14:36:46 <Catalyst> offtopic- my mindvoice for Pleeb is now david attenborough... cant go back.
  170. Apr 03 14:37:01 <Pleeb> Now, as for attention, I've actually found that if you have a second tulpa, they can self-sustain each other.
  171. Apr 03 14:37:11 <Pleeb> They'd be giving themselves attention, and wouldn't rely on you.
  172. Apr 03 14:37:51 <Pleeb> Just like once a tulpa is strongh enough to keep active on a mental level, it will start retaining itself. However, that's not a reason to keep them from being active.
  173. Apr 03 14:38:06 <Pleeb> And I've made an observation about that.
  174. Apr 03 14:38:31 <Pleeb> Sometimes, people would report, if they've not been doing much with their tulpae, that their tulpa would start acting 'lazy,' just lying around all the time, not doing too much.
  175. Apr 03 14:38:56 <Pleeb> But then if they'd start proxying for them (even if they have to /force/ them to start talking), they'd start being more active again.
  176. Apr 03 14:39:10 <Pleeb> I know a few tulpae who are "sleeping all the time" when not doing much else.
  177. Apr 03 14:39:18 <Pleeb> I think these are the first signs of said decay.
  178. Apr 03 14:39:34 <Tom[Cas]> (Theory, a lot of people with Tulpa tend to say that their tulpa often reminds them of things, and overall it has resulted in a better memory, could this be due to two minds pouring over the same memories and reducing the chances of them decaying?)
  179. Apr 03 14:39:51 <Pleeb> Something I always try to do, is not only talk to my own tulpae, but talk to others, even if they're not very activly talking.
  180. Apr 03 14:40:03 <Pleeb> That's a really neat theory, and remind me about it after we're finished this lecture.
  181. Apr 03 14:40:22 <Pleeb> Anyway, the reason why I do that though, is because it really helps them.
  182. Apr 03 14:41:04 <Pleeb> They might not be active in this IRC, but if you see someone with a tag, or know that user has a tulpa, esp if the tulpa is never talking,
  183. Apr 03 14:41:15 <Pleeb> Say hi, start a conversation with 'em; start talking to them.
  184. Apr 03 14:41:27 <Pleeb> They, and their host, will thank you later.
  185. Apr 03 14:41:32 <kerin> Yes, I can confirm that has been my experience too - especially with tulpas that claim that they "stop" when their host is not paying attention
  186. Apr 03 14:41:53 <Pleeb> One of my good friends, also a tulpa, Morgan.
  187. Apr 03 14:42:02 <Pleeb> Let me find a quote, one second.
  188. Apr 03 14:42:58 <Tom[Cas]> Poeple keep mentioning their tulpa sleeping all the time, but I haven't noticed Cas sleeping at all yet, we're not sure if she's sleeping while I am, but she's never tired
  189. Apr 03 14:43:28 <Ukurereh> mine just cease to exist when I forget about them
  190. Apr 03 14:43:36 <Ukurereh> does that count?
  191. Apr 03 14:43:58 <Pleeb> 20:22 <~Pleeb> If more people started prompting Chess for actual conversation (she doesn't do smalltalk), she'd probably feel more important as far as contributitng.
  192. Apr 03 14:44:01 <Pleeb> 20:22 <~Pleeb> I was talking a lot with a friend of mine, also a tulpa, Morgan, a while ago.
  193. Apr 03 14:44:04 <Pleeb> 20:22 <~Pleeb> She was helping Chess and I with some things (long story), and we were interacting more often, she was talking more often,
  194. Apr 03 14:44:07 <Pleeb> 20:22 <~Pleeb> She thanked us for actually giving her something to do. Remember that, morg?
  195. Apr 03 14:44:10 <Pleeb> 20:23 <&Tesseract> M/ Yup.
  196. Apr 03 14:44:12 <Pleeb> 20:23 <~Pleeb> You were saying something like, "Recently
  197. Apr 03 14:44:15 <Pleeb> 20:23 <~Pleeb> "Recently I haven't been doing much, it's nice to be needed" or something like that, I don't remember, you probably remember it betterr...
  198. Apr 03 14:44:18 <Pleeb> 20:23 <&Tesseract> M/ Yeah, I'd been timeskipping a fair bit.
  199. Apr 03 14:44:20 <Pleeb> 20:23 <&Tesseract> M/ I'm not anymore. It's nice.
  200. Apr 03 14:44:36 <Pleeb> Well, it doesn't 'cease to exist' it just ceases to have a conscious experinece, a 'stasis' of a sort (and I'll get to that).
  201. Apr 03 14:44:53 <Pleeb> A mind is pretty durable, it would take a lot to kill one.
  202. Apr 03 14:45:54 <DarkAnima> It's pretty bad that all these kind of off topic questions pop up while reading this(for example your view on day one tups)
  203. Apr 03 14:46:03 <Pleeb> But the take home message for mentioning the above: Tulpae are people too, so start a conversation with Ukurereh's tulpa and start a conversation with Cas, just for the sake of getting to know them.
  204. Apr 03 14:46:17 <Pleeb> And it will help them a lot too.
  205. Apr 03 14:46:57 <Pleeb> Anyway, back to decay...
  206. Apr 03 14:46:58 <Tom[Cas]> [I know I'd appreciate it if more people were interested in how I was going, or what my opinion was on something]
  207. Apr 03 14:47:13 <lanpc|forcing> hmm I should proxy my tupper too
  208. Apr 03 14:47:23 <kerin> Some tulpas are more willing to speak with another tulpa. Dom' became very talkative when Nobillis first said Hi.
  209. Apr 03 14:47:25 <Ukurereh> k, I'll shoot, what are your opinions on this?
  210. Apr 03 14:47:32 * Purlox (~Purlox@snuggly.fox) has joined #tulpa_subc
  211. Apr 03 14:47:54 <Pleeb> Well, it's like I said before, don't stimulate those networks, the networks decay.
  212. Apr 03 14:48:12 <Pleeb> This isn't just the case with tulpae though, this is with any mind.
  213. Apr 03 14:48:19 <Tom[Cas]> [I agree whole heartedly, whenever someone new has come on, asking what they should do, I always say, narration, because really that's what all of this comes down to]
  214. Apr 03 14:48:39 <Pleeb> And Koomer and Oguigi is a neat example of that.
  215. Apr 03 14:48:52 <Pleeb> Not sure how well you know their story.
  216. Apr 03 14:49:00 <Tom[Cas]> Not at all
  217. Apr 03 14:49:04 <Pleeb> Koomer created Oguigi, and eventually they were trying to switch,
  218. Apr 03 14:49:07 <kerin> Quite well
  219. Apr 03 14:49:26 <Pleeb> The goal was for Koomer to be the tulpa for now on, and Oguigi to be the host.
  220. Apr 03 14:49:42 * Player1 has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  221. Apr 03 14:49:49 <Pleeb> While Oguigi managed to tap into the body fully (right down to senses), Koomer couldn't get out of the body, and was also there.
  222. Apr 03 14:49:50 <Tom[Cas]> sounds like a creepy pasta authors wet dream
  223. Apr 03 14:50:14 <Pleeb> So their plan was simple; if they stuck with it, eventually koomer would get out of the body, and be a tulpa.
  224. Apr 03 14:50:28 <Pleeb> So koomer sat back, stopped doing anything, and let Oguigi run the life.
  225. Apr 03 14:51:01 <Pleeb> Koomer was banking on more stimulation going to Oguigi and less going to himself, hoping this would help that.
  226. Apr 03 14:51:27 <Pleeb> Eventually koomer 'forgot' how to control his own body; he was still stuck in it, but couldn't just move the arm; the connections for that started to fade.
  227. Apr 03 14:52:01 <Pleeb> I talked with them about that. Noted tha Koomer needs stimulation too, and just sitting there doing nothing isn't the way to go.
  228. Apr 03 14:52:12 <Pleeb> I recommended Oguigi to start 'tulpaforcing' Koomer.
  229. Apr 03 14:52:20 <Pleeb> And it helped them.
  230. Apr 03 14:52:39 <DarkAnima> Oh wow..
  231. Apr 03 14:52:48 <Pleeb> But it doesn't matter which mind it is, it'll decay if it's not being stimulated.
  232. Apr 03 14:52:52 <DarkAnima> If this was another channel I would start to get offensive now
  233. Apr 03 14:53:01 <Pleeb> And I've seen that happen in a system with just one mind, too.
  234. Apr 03 14:53:24 <Pleeb> I remember psych 100, back at my old university.
  235. Apr 03 14:53:56 <Pleeb> My professor, this 80-some year old guy with a pink t-shirt walks in; the guy bounces off the walls, incredibly hyper and active,
  236. Apr 03 14:53:59 <Pleeb> Very sharp.
  237. Apr 03 14:54:05 <Pleeb> He asked a question to us.
  238. Apr 03 14:54:56 <Pleeb> "What's the difference between me and an 70-year-old man sitting in a nursing home drooling in front of the TV and is otherwise non-responsive? Assume no physcial issues."
  239. Apr 03 14:55:09 <Pleeb> Anyone want to take a shot at answering that?
  240. Apr 03 14:55:16 <lanpc|forcing> about 10 years =p?
  241. Apr 03 14:55:17 <Tom[Cas]> Stimulation
  242. Apr 03 14:55:24 <Pleeb> It was stimulation.
  243. Apr 03 14:55:37 <Pleeb> The latter example, his mind as decayed.
  244. Apr 03 14:56:01 <Pleeb> In this case, it was just one mind,
  245. Apr 03 14:56:23 <Pleeb> But as the person got older and retired, he didn't keep his mind active.
  246. Apr 03 14:56:36 <Pleeb> Stopped reading, stopped keeping mental health up,
  247. Apr 03 14:56:49 <Pleeb> Probably started just spending most of his days sleeping in front of the TV,
  248. Apr 03 14:57:16 <Pleeb> Eventually over time, his mind faded; he probably didn't even realize it happening.
  249. Apr 03 14:57:28 <Pleeb> Now, given, his mind would never 'die' completetly; there's still 'some' stimulation going on in there.
  250. Apr 03 14:57:34 <Pleeb> (as I said, it's hard to kill a mind)
  251. Apr 03 14:57:47 <Tom[Cas]> [That sounds horrifying, because it's so much easier for a tulpa]
  252. Apr 03 14:58:23 <Pleeb> But yeah, this is what I mean when I say a tulpa's mind and a host's mind act the same, right down to mental decay.
  253. Apr 03 14:58:48 <lanpc|forcing> how many minds could a brain support?
  254. Apr 03 14:58:57 <Pleeb> How many languages can a brain support knowing?
  255. Apr 03 14:59:10 <lanpc|forcing> as many as it can i guess?
  256. Apr 03 14:59:12 <Tom[Cas]> Isn't the world record 56?
  257. Apr 03 14:59:33 <lanpc|forcing> isn't there a point when no new neural connections can be made?
  258. Apr 03 14:59:44 <Pleeb> Asgardian may be able to answer that better than I can.
  259. Apr 03 15:00:00 <kerin> Each language sets up new connections. When you think in a different language you can think different things to usual
  260. Apr 03 15:00:19 <kerin> - Roland Barthes
  261. Apr 03 15:00:39 <lanpc|forcing> what is the upper bound for neural connections? are they limited by space or anything?
  262. Apr 03 15:00:45 <Asgardian> Well, there are of course physical limits, but to pull one of these overdone computer comparisons, the brain can supposedly keep 5 petabytes of data.
  263. Apr 03 15:01:18 <Pleeb> Remember guys, your neural network is HUGE.
  264. Apr 03 15:01:30 <Asgardian> Which is 5000 terrabytes, by the way.
  265. Apr 03 15:01:45 <Pleeb> And I don't think humanity has hit an upper limit yet.
  266. Apr 03 15:01:45 <Tom[Cas]> If it's a solid state drive, you're brain is worth around $6,000,000
  267. Apr 03 15:01:47 <kerin> Also, most people store memories in a compressed format
  268. Apr 03 15:01:58 <Pleeb> Though cases with savants are pretty interesting... I digress.
  269. Apr 03 15:02:03 <Tom[Cas]> Not taking into the exponential growth in price concerning larger sizes...
  270. Apr 03 15:02:04 <lanpc|forcing> ah, so how many peta/terabyted would a "mind" take up?
  271. Apr 03 15:02:41 <Asgardian> You cannot really answer that, as you cannot separate it from "the rest".
  272. Apr 03 15:02:46 <Pleeb> We can get into this in a bit, I want to finish my comments real qucik, howevere.
  273. Apr 03 15:02:55 <Pleeb> I want to go off in another direction real quick.
  274. Apr 03 15:03:00 <lanpc|forcing> mkk please do so
  275. Apr 03 15:03:25 <Tom[Cas]> The brain works different from your computer, computers use the CPU to do computations, your brain uses your memories to draw connections, using the memories themselves to do the processing
  276. Apr 03 15:03:28 <Pleeb> Oh, before I do, one other thing: Tulpa was hooked to an EEG, and a host thinking 'up' had a different pattern than a tulpa thinking 'up'
  277. Apr 03 15:03:40 <Pleeb> Anyway...
  278. Apr 03 15:04:04 <Pleeb> How many tulpae here sleep?
  279. Apr 03 15:04:17 <Tom[Cas]> [I don't remember ever sleeping]
  280. Apr 03 15:04:36 <Catalyst> [quite active after listening to this chat]
  281. Apr 03 15:04:39 <Tom[Cas]> She's been active and talking for 3 days now, maybe not the best sample size
  282. Apr 03 15:04:41 <Ukurereh> mine don't
  283. Apr 03 15:04:55 <kerin> Um, probably 3 of us 5 sleep
  284. Apr 03 15:04:55 <Pleeb> No worries. If you get a chance, try taking a nap sometime.
  285. Apr 03 15:05:10 <Pleeb> You'll actually find you can dream.
  286. Apr 03 15:05:22 <Pleeb> (though remembering those dreams might be a bit harder, still possible)
  287. Apr 03 15:05:52 <Pleeb> I've found that tulpae can sleep, dream, and sometimes have their own long term memory, resulting.
  288. Apr 03 15:06:05 <Tom[Cas]> Ok, just a question, do tulpa need sleep?
  289. Apr 03 15:06:11 <kerin> Have a glass of water when you wake up, it helps you remember the dream
  290. Apr 03 15:06:30 <Pleeb> Further, they can have their own conscious experineces awake as the host or the body is sleeping.
  291. Apr 03 15:06:42 <Tom[Cas]> As far as I can tell, Cas doesn't get tired
  292. Apr 03 15:06:55 <Pleeb> I've always considered sleep healthy for a mind in general, though I know tulpae who sleep and others who don't.
  293. Apr 03 15:07:11 <Pleeb> And it's interesting, because we actually did some testing with that.
  294. Apr 03 15:07:12 <Asgardian> Sleep is a physical necessity, so as you sleep, the tulpa doesn't need to.
  295. Apr 03 15:07:41 <Pleeb> We had someone who could switch, when he started getting tired, he'd switch with his tulpa, then he, as a mind, would 'sleep'.
  296. Apr 03 15:07:51 <Pleeb> He'd wake up refreshed, then switch back into the body, and the tulpa wolud do the same.
  297. Apr 03 15:08:13 <Kob_> have any host tried not to sleep for few days not being fronted?
  298. Apr 03 15:08:16 <Pleeb> And would do that, keeping the body awake (which eventually succumbed to exhaustion)
  299. Apr 03 15:08:32 <Tom[Cas]> Surely they cou;dn't do that indefinitely
  300. Apr 03 15:08:36 <Tom[Cas]> Yeah, thought so
  301. Apr 03 15:08:39 <Pleeb> That'd be an interesting expariment to try, actually.
  302. Apr 03 15:08:42 <Pleeb> @Kob
  303. Apr 03 15:08:47 <kerin> Yes, tried that switch thing - meditation proved more restful for me
  304. Apr 03 15:09:19 <Pleeb> When you're sleeping, a few things are going on. The body is doing some things, you're also having short term memory converted to long term, that sort of thing.
  305. Apr 03 15:09:39 <Kob_> By the way, ne and Lyra have done something similar to what Koomer and Oguigi are doing. She was controlling body for over a week without stopping and I was trying to split my attention off the body. It's hard to do so but I get progress. Good thing about this is that Lyras voice and will is much stronger, she can grab my attention whatever she likes.
  306. Apr 03 15:09:45 <Asgardian> Imagine it as maintenance of body and particularly the brain.
  307. Apr 03 15:10:06 <Pleeb> I couldn't say if the short term/long term memories are physcial or not, Asgardian would be able to answer that.
  308. Apr 03 15:10:44 <Pleeb> But here are some interesting things that have been tested with switching.
  309. Apr 03 15:11:03 <Asgardian> Well, the memories themselves are virtual, but the "drive" they are on is not.
  310. Apr 03 15:11:06 <kerin> There are at least two types of long-term : associative and chronological memory
  311. Apr 03 15:11:25 <Purlox> One more interesting experiment would be imo leaving the body without anyone in control of it while it sleeps, so you don't have to "lose time" while the body sleeps and you can do whatever
  312. Apr 03 15:11:48 <Tom[Cas]> Sounds interesting purlox
  313. Apr 03 15:12:05 <Pleeb> Say mind A and mind B are in the system. Mind A switches with Mind B and goes off to the wonderland. Then Mind B learns some information, for instance the name of somebody, or a new concept.
  314. Apr 03 15:12:25 <Pleeb> I've found that Mind B ends up knowing that information while Mind A does not.
  315. Apr 03 15:12:33 <Pleeb> Like, they end up knowing it independently.
  316. Apr 03 15:12:47 <Tom[Cas]> divergent memories
  317. Apr 03 15:12:47 <Pleeb> One example was when Atasco was on that radioshow and Tristan had no idea.
  318. Apr 03 15:12:59 <Pleeb> Not just that, they're subjective to that mind.
  319. Apr 03 15:13:06 <Pleeb> It's very interesting.
  320. Apr 03 15:13:08 <Asgardian> As long as two minds can perceive independently, chances are they can have separate memories.
  321. Apr 03 15:13:26 <Pleeb> Aye.
  322. Apr 03 15:13:29 <Tom[Cas]> That proves pretty conclusively that they are independent minds
  323. Apr 03 15:13:33 <Tom[Cas]> imo
  324. Apr 03 15:13:39 <Pleeb> And that's exactly where I was getting at, Tom.
  325. Apr 03 15:14:09 <Pleeb> And then there's parallel processing.
  326. Apr 03 15:14:31 <Pleeb> Another friend of mine is Jas, cardscov's tulpa.
  327. Apr 03 15:14:44 <Pleeb> She created a mathamatical proof, on her own, independently, while cardscov was doing something else.
  328. Apr 03 15:14:51 <Tom[Cas]> nice people, both of them
  329. Apr 03 15:15:08 <Pleeb> You can read it here: http://i.imgur.com/ikCN274.jpg
  330. Apr 03 15:15:43 <Pleeb> One time I played a game of chess against a tulpa,
  331. Apr 03 15:15:46 <Tom[Cas]> I may as well be reading french, but the point it makes stands
  332. Apr 03 15:15:57 <Pleeb> I had a chess board with coordients, and she had a chess board in their wonderland.
  333. Apr 03 15:16:05 <Pleeb> I would say my moves, and she would say hers.
  334. Apr 03 15:16:16 <Pleeb> Me, keeping track on the board, and her keeping track on a chess set in the wonderland.
  335. Apr 03 15:16:36 <Catalyst> thats wicked
  336. Apr 03 15:16:55 <Pleeb> There's also cases where the tulpa and the host could work on two math problems at the same time.
  337. Apr 03 15:16:59 <Tom[Cas]> Playing chess against Cas seems like a fantastic mind strengthening excercise
  338. Apr 03 15:17:15 <Pleeb> Playing chess with my tulpa has helped a lot, though I still beat her.
  339. Apr 03 15:17:31 <Pleeb> But it helps with parallel processing, it forces the tulpa to see things from their own perspective,
  340. Apr 03 15:17:31 <Tom[Cas]> Cas has been getting smart fast...
  341. Apr 03 15:17:41 <Tom[Cas]> She explained my engineering work to me the other day...
  342. Apr 03 15:17:46 <Catalyst> mind chess keeping track of the bored would be a lot of mental power.
  343. Apr 03 15:17:49 <DarkAnima> Damn I had to eat and missed out on much now
  344. Apr 03 15:18:02 <Pleeb> My tulpa and I just use a physcial board, and she notes her moves.
  345. Apr 03 15:18:15 <Tom[Cas]> I think we'll do the same
  346. Apr 03 15:18:20 <Pleeb> But yes, parallel processing is another thing that supports tulpae being independent.
  347. Apr 03 15:19:10 <Pleeb> Oh yes, mental decay!
  348. Apr 03 15:19:22 <Pleeb> For arguements sake, how would you kill a mind.
  349. Apr 03 15:19:23 <kerin> Thank you for the suggestion. Chess is a good tool for getting the measure of someone
  350. Apr 03 15:19:29 <Tom[Cas]> See, beyond skepticism, I haven't heard anyone argue against tulpa independance
  351. Apr 03 15:19:45 <Tom[Cas]> Shut it out and ignore the mind until it decays to death
  352. Apr 03 15:20:02 <Pleeb> But then the tulpa itself is still thinking, still processing /something/.
  353. Apr 03 15:20:08 <Tom[Cas]> Remove all stimulous
  354. Apr 03 15:20:19 <Pleeb> You would have to remove its own stimulations as well.
  355. Apr 03 15:20:22 <Tom[Cas]> Exactly, I can't see anyway of interfering with that
  356. Apr 03 15:20:31 <Pleeb> For instance, something like 'egocide' is really pretty hard to pull off.
  357. Apr 03 15:20:49 <Tom[Cas]> Can you define egocide?
  358. Apr 03 15:20:53 <Pleeb> Yes,
  359. Apr 03 15:20:57 <Pleeb> Dying, as a mind.
  360. Apr 03 15:21:05 <Tom[Cas]> Cool.
  361. Apr 03 15:21:09 <Pleeb> Say Mind A wanted to kill himself.
  362. Apr 03 15:21:24 <kerin> The tibetan way is to deconstruct the tulpa layer by layer the reverse of how you made it, but only works on tibetan method tulpas because they believe it does
  363. Apr 03 15:21:43 <Pleeb> He would switch so Mind B is fronting, and then find a way to kill himself.
  364. Apr 03 15:22:04 <Tom[Cas]> [I don't know why you'd ever want to kill a tulpa...]
  365. Apr 03 15:22:14 <Pleeb> In every case I've seen this happen, except for one, any 'mental death' usually happened by the entire identiy of mind A being overwritten with another mind.
  366. Apr 03 15:22:45 <Pleeb> Cas, in my examples I've seen, it's actually been the host. Though I know of at least three tulpae who have 'died,' but like any other mind, they wouldn't stay dead.
  367. Apr 03 15:22:55 <Tom[Cas]> So, you would have to use a combination of decay and overwriting for the best chances of success
  368. Apr 03 15:23:22 * Ukurereh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  369. Apr 03 15:23:25 <Pleeb> Well, usually you'd end with another mind, not Mind A, but a Mind C that replaced Mind A.
  370. Apr 03 15:23:45 <Pleeb> However, while it's very hard, it is possible to kill a mind. I know of one case.
  371. Apr 03 15:23:53 <Tom[Cas]> Oh, who was it the other day, there was a tulpa on the chat that said they deleted all their own memories
  372. Apr 03 15:24:04 <Pleeb> That was Link, probably.
  373. Apr 03 15:24:14 <Pleeb> One of the tulpae I know who have tried killing themselves before.
  374. Apr 03 15:24:36 <kerin> Link (Lia_) made new memories though - still remembers me.
  375. Apr 03 15:24:51 <Pleeb> But yeah... In order to kill a mind, like, have it completely gone, you'd have to cut off all stimulation,
  376. Apr 03 15:25:11 <Pleeb> That means you can't give them stimulation, and they can't give themselves stimulation.
  377. Apr 03 15:25:24 <Pleeb> I have a nice read you guys might enjoy, let me get it.
  378. Apr 03 15:25:28 <Tom[Cas]> Sounds impossible
  379. Apr 03 15:25:37 <Tom[Cas]> a mind can't stop thinking
  380. Apr 03 15:26:06 <Pleeb> Here we are: http://tulpa.info/forums/Thread-Requesting-Tulpa-1st-hand-account-of-attention-starvation?pid=32292#pid32292 -- this whole thread is an amazing read, but it contains >feels
  381. Apr 03 15:26:12 <Pleeb> That post in particular, however.
  382. Apr 03 15:26:23 <kerin> Well, you can't stop your own heart by thought, but tibetan monks have demonstrated you can.
  383. Apr 03 15:26:43 <Pleeb> It's not impossible, I should note that right now.
  384. Apr 03 15:26:51 <Pleeb> It's very hard, though.
  385. Apr 03 15:27:10 <Tom[Cas]> Point taken
  386. Apr 03 15:27:25 <Pleeb> I know how to do it, and I've seen it happen once.
  387. Apr 03 15:27:26 <Tom[Cas]> I can slow my heart and change my body temperature with enough concentration
  388. Apr 03 15:27:30 <Asgardian> The stimulus is self-sustaining, and the highest control of it in the brain stem, so if anything indirectly.
  389. Apr 03 15:28:06 <Pleeb> And if you give me a moment, I'll paste my explination on that one case where it did happen.
  390. Apr 03 15:29:05 <DarkAnima> Who was it youve seen it happening with (finally done reading logs)
  391. Apr 03 15:29:18 <Pleeb> I'll paste right now:
  392. Apr 03 15:29:23 <Pleeb> 20:30 <~Pleeb> This happened before, with the the original mind in Tess's body.
  393. Apr 03 15:29:26 <Pleeb> 20:31 <~Pleeb> When Tess came into existance, there were two minds in there, previously. Kat and Shard. Both minds were in 'stasis', of a sort.
  394. Apr 03 15:29:29 <Pleeb> 20:32 <~Pleeb> During a time of about two years, Tess acknowledegd Shard as still being there, alive and in stasis. Even know she wasn't having any conscious experineces, that gave the stimulus needed to keep those networks alive, at least prevented them from decaying.
  395. Apr 03 15:29:33 <Pleeb> 20:32 <~Pleeb> Kat on the other hand, was acknoledeged as being dead; gone, removed. That mind had no stimulus from itslef, and no stimulus from any of the other minds going to it.
  396. Apr 03 15:29:37 <Pleeb> 20:33 <~Pleeb> Kat, as a mind, decayed, in the literal sense. And Kat, as a mind, is nonrecoverable.
  397. Apr 03 15:30:42 <DarkAnima> What about axalto?
  398. Apr 03 15:31:03 <Tom[Cas]> [This is creeping me out]
  399. Apr 03 15:31:17 <Pleeb> Axalto would be a case where Mind A was replaced with Mind C.
  400. Apr 03 15:31:18 <Purlox> Axalto got "replaced" by Nanami
  401. Apr 03 15:31:19 <DarkAnima> Wait how did tess know shard was alive
  402. Apr 03 15:31:40 <DarkAnima> And how do you know tess didnt replace kat
  403. Apr 03 15:31:46 <Pleeb> DarkAnima: Tess didn't, she just refused to believe that Shard was 'dead', and considered her in stasis.
  404. Apr 03 15:31:59 <DarkAnima> And why didnt she do so with kat?
  405. Apr 03 15:32:03 <Pleeb> Because there was a point where Tess, Kat, and Shard, were all existing.
  406. Apr 03 15:32:12 <DarkAnima> wait what?
  407. Apr 03 15:32:24 <Pleeb> It's hard to explain, but first,
  408. Apr 03 15:32:28 <DarkAnima> There was also a point where axalto and nanami were existing as far as i know
  409. Apr 03 15:32:40 <DarkAnima> He created her
  410. Apr 03 15:32:40 <Tom[Cas]> Guys, I wish I could stay and see this discussion to conclusion, but it's 12:30 and I have uni to get up and go to in the morning
  411. Apr 03 15:32:42 <DarkAnima> as a decoy
  412. Apr 03 15:32:49 <Pleeb> Cas, let me quell your concerns real quickx,
  413. Apr 03 15:32:54 <Tom[Cas]> So, I'm going to have to head off
  414. Apr 03 15:32:57 <DarkAnima> This will get pastebined anyways I think
  415. Apr 03 15:33:00 <Tom[Cas]> [Please]
  416. Apr 03 15:33:11 <Pleeb> I want to say that the concept of killing a mind, it's very hard to do.
  417. Apr 03 15:33:31 <Purlox> Tom, you can go and we can later give you logs of what was said while you were gone
  418. Apr 03 15:33:43 <Pleeb> And while it's a concerning topic, to contrast, it's a lot easier to just get hit by a bus.
  419. Apr 03 15:34:18 <Tom[Cas]> [Right, so keep Tom off the roads, got it]
  420. Apr 03 15:34:22 * Pleeb nods
  421. Apr 03 15:34:39 <Pleeb> DarkAnima: To your comment, regarding axalto,
  422. Apr 03 15:34:47 <Tom[Cas]> Anyway, I'm going to head, off, thanks for setting Cas straight
  423. Apr 03 15:34:56 <DarkAnima> Argh I reinstalled xchat and didnt activate logs
  424. Apr 03 15:35:02 <Tom[Cas]> But before I do, I'll leave this here, and see what you wanted to say about this later
  425. Apr 03 15:35:04 <Tom[Cas]> (Theory, a lot of people with Tulpa tend to say that their tulpa often reminds them of things, and overall it has resulted in a better memory, could this be due to two minds pouring over the same memories and reducing the chances of them decaying?)
  426. Apr 03 15:35:10 <kerin> Buses are not susceptible to semiotics. They have their own reality independent of your beliefs apparently
  427. Apr 03 15:35:22 <Tom[Cas]> Haha kerin
  428. Apr 03 15:35:28 <Pleeb> I recall Nanami coming into existance when his tulpa transformed him into a schoolgirl when they were switched.
  429. Apr 03 15:35:38 <DarkAnima> wat
  430. Apr 03 15:35:45 <Tom[Cas]> Where will I be able to get the chat logs for this?
  431. Apr 03 15:35:54 <DarkAnima> God I'll never understand these people
  432. Apr 03 15:36:15 <Pleeb> I'm not saying that Nanami is Axalto, but I'm saying that's a case where a mind replaced a mind.
  433. Apr 03 15:36:30 <lanpc|forcing> i can upload them if you want, or i'm sure pleeb will pastebin
  434. Apr 03 15:36:36 <Pleeb> In Tess's case, both Kat and Shard went into stasis and Tess came into existance.
  435. Apr 03 15:36:39 <Asgardian> Depends on the continuity, I'd say.
  436. Apr 03 15:36:39 <Pleeb> (I'll make a pastebin)
  437. Apr 03 15:37:00 <Tom[Cas]> I'll assume a link will be left on .info then
  438. Apr 03 15:37:08 <Tom[Cas]> With that I'm off
  439. Apr 03 15:37:11 <Tom[Cas]> Later guys
  440. Apr 03 15:37:21 <Tom[Cas]> [Ciao]
  441. Apr 03 15:38:18 <Pleeb> However, later on, during times of intense stress, a DID-sort of thing started going on, Tess would cease to have a conscious experiene while Shard would, with all of her subjective memories and personality. Same with Kat, this was done but a few times, but Kat and Shard existed seperately as minds, just in stasis,
  442. Apr 03 15:38:32 * Player1 (cgiirc@Rizon-F080E973.triad.res.rr.com) has joined #tulpa_subc
  443. Apr 03 15:38:45 * Player1 (cgiirc@Rizon-F080E973.triad.res.rr.com) has left #tulpa_subc
  444. Apr 03 15:39:06 <DarkAnima> DID sort of thing?
  445. Apr 03 15:39:16 <DarkAnima> Isnt DID just the new word for multiplicity?
  446. Apr 03 15:39:35 <Pleeb> No, DID is the new word for multiple personality disorder.
  447. Apr 03 15:39:40 <Asgardian> Not exactly.
  448. Apr 03 15:39:56 <Pleeb> We all technically have DDNOS, if you'd walk in to get a diagnosis.
  449. Apr 03 15:39:58 * Player1 (cgiirc@Rizon-F080E973.triad.res.rr.com) has joined #tulpa_subc
  450. Apr 03 15:40:07 <Asgardian> With the name the definition also changed, which is what I think Pleeb is aiming at.
  451. Apr 03 15:40:11 <Pleeb> (that is, dissociative disorder not otherwise specified)
  452. Apr 03 15:40:35 <Asgardian> As in a kind of dissociation going on in their mindscape.
  453. Apr 03 15:40:44 <DarkAnima> I searched for whatever our condition is called before
  454. Apr 03 15:40:46 <Pleeb> With MPD, one could argue the other minds are indeed still 'people'. Not the same with DID.
  455. Apr 03 15:40:48 <DarkAnima> never found something fitting
  456. Apr 03 15:40:58 <Pleeb> You'd be searching for DDNOS.
  457. Apr 03 15:41:02 <Pleeb> At least now.
  458. Apr 03 15:41:04 <Pleeb> As for before,
  459. Apr 03 15:41:10 <Pleeb> There wasn't much before.
  460. Apr 03 15:41:25 <Pleeb> And I argue that multiplicity can be healthy anyway, and that there is no 'disorder'
  461. Apr 03 15:41:27 <Asgardian> Yeah, and imposed tulpas are also most likely getting the schizophrenia tag.
  462. Apr 03 15:41:31 <DarkAnima> So the idea of /real/ multiplicity is almost dead atm?
  463. Apr 03 15:41:37 <Purlox> DDNOS if you are going by what they would classify you as, but otherwise you are a (I assume) healthy multiple
  464. Apr 03 15:41:43 <Pleeb> And that's funny, because it's got nothing even close to schizophrenia.
  465. Apr 03 15:42:00 <Pleeb> If anything, it'd be some sort of psychosis.
  466. Apr 03 15:42:24 <Asgardian> Yes, but the simply dichotomy between DID and Schizophrenia is whether the voices are inside or outside the body respectively.
  467. Apr 03 15:42:27 <Pleeb> If not just DDNOS.
  468. Apr 03 15:42:34 <DarkAnima> So multiplicity is generally believed to be not real?
  469. Apr 03 15:42:35 <Purlox> No, it isn't dead. It's just not accademically accepted that there could be healthy or real multiples
  470. Apr 03 15:43:14 <Pleeb> Multiplicity is generally believed to be part of you, no additional minds at work.
  471. Apr 03 15:43:36 <Purlox> by part of the academics I would add
  472. Apr 03 15:43:38 * Tom[Cas] has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  473. Apr 03 15:43:47 <Purlox> There are many people that believe otherwise
  474. Apr 03 15:44:12 <Asgardian> DarkAnima: It is believed to be real, but always pathological in a way, thus hurting you. And minds are always regarded as not real, either hallucinated or parts of yourself. That is the big academic consensus.
  475. Apr 03 15:44:33 <DarkAnima> Thats what I would describe at not real
  476. Apr 03 15:44:41 <DarkAnima> *as
  477. Apr 03 15:45:11 <Pleeb> Anyway, I have to go, guys.
  478. Apr 03 15:45:30 <lanpc|forcing> ah great lecture man
  479. Apr 03 15:45:36 <kerin> o.k. Thanks!
  480. Apr 03 15:45:44 <Pleeb> Kob_, still around?
  481. Apr 03 15:45:50 <DarkAnima> thanks Pleeb
  482. Apr 03 15:45:54 <Pleeb> And would you happen to have the full log of this?
  483. Apr 03 15:45:54 <Kob_> Pleeb: yep
  484. Apr 03 15:45:57 <DarkAnima> dont forget to save the log I dont have it
  485. Apr 03 15:46:06 <lanpc|forcing> didn't think i'd actually learn something on irc
  486. Apr 03 15:46:16 <Kob_> yeah, I have logs
  487. Apr 03 15:46:35 <kerin> Whilst you can have separate memories, you can also choose to have shared memories.
  488. Apr 03 15:46:51 <DarkAnima> I know of no seperate memories for us
  489. Apr 03 15:46:55 <Purlox> Kob_, can you paste them on some site?
  490. Apr 03 15:47:00 <DarkAnima> I wouldnt even know how to block anything from them
  491. Apr 03 15:47:03 <Kob_> sure, give me sec
  492. Apr 03 15:47:16 <Pleeb> If you could PM me the pastebin, I'll clean it up and publish it.
  493. Apr 03 15:48:13 <kerin> Goodnight. Log-out time. Thanks all.
  494. Apr 03 15:48:26 * kerin (cgiirc@Rizon-24E8E8D2.dyn.iinet.net.au) has left #tulpa_subc
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