<Dracula> the problem is you complaining that you find it hostile when women discuss how hostile the forums (and wider gaming, indie games, programming environments) are. that is ridiculous.

<Dracula> you are trying to explain how it feels to be left out and talked about and shunned, but you are explaining this TO WOMEN WHO KNOW WHAT THIS FEELS LIKE BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT

<Dracula> you shirk responsibility. you might not see yourself as the problem but you are: you a man and therefore by default you are contributing to and perpetuating the sexist environment of this forum. stop talking about what "everyone" needs to do, because, for starters, it's not "everyone", it's "all the men", and YOU ARE PART OF THAT. maybe you even meant "all the men" but you said "everyone" and that is sexist. if

<Dracula> you "ignore and move on" when a man makes a sexist comment you are part of the problem.

<Dracula> now the thing that annoys me most is you claiming it's the same, to be the woman in the room of men, to be the man in the discussion about sexism, well I can tell you it's not. I'm a white woman. I know what it's like to have black people talking about 'white people' and how bad all white people are and how we are racist even when we're trying not to be and how much nicer things would be if they didn't have to

<Dracula> deal with us. it feels really bad! I don't think of myself as a bad person and to hear this just makes me think "but I'm not like that! I don't hate black people! I'm not a racist!" well it's irrelevant. I benefit vastly from being white whether I want to or not. And if I stand by when people are being racist, the racists think I'm agreeing with them, and therefore I'm a racist too.

<Dracula> and this is nothing like what it feels like to be a woman in a space of sexist men. It's not at all the same. It is 1000 times worse. Because to be an acceptable white person I just have to try to not be an asshole and not let other white people be assholes, because white is positioned above black, so the standards are low. But to be an acceptable woman is impossible in sexist space, because the problem isn't

<Dracula> anything I've done (nb if you do things inadvertantly you are still doing them), the problem is that men hate me and there's nothing I can do about that. There are two ways to get by: pretend to be a man (and so they keep making sexist jokes, 'cause there are 'no women' there) or be openly a woman but join in with the misogyny. otherwise, when you say really normal things like 'I can't believe there has been

<Dracula> more than one rape thread on this forum', you're some kind of harpy who really needs to drop it 'cause god there were only a FEW rape threads stop blowing things out of proportion (seriously?!)

<Dracula> to create a less apparently-hostile environment, men just have to say "I don't hate women, I love women" and women have to take that, even with men talking over women, claiming not being a sexist is too hard, claiming things that aren't equivalent (just like this) balance out, making sexist jokes and comments (and yes the rape threads are a big deal. One is too many. Even if one was made and instantly shut down,

<Dracula> it's still too many. You are mired in sexism if you think there's such a thing as making too big a deal out of the more-than-one rape threads - this isn't hyperbole either, wow). This is what women are talking about. Listen or get out of this thread.

<Dracula> Don't call things gender-neutral when almost everyone is a man. That's not gender-neutral. Even if each and every man had solid feminist intentions, first of all it's intimidating, secondly men who surround themselves with men can get more and more sexist over time and apparently not notice. And let me tell you right now the majority here are not men with good, woman-supporting intentions, not by a long shot.

<Dracula> All I had to do was read the first pages of the first page of threads! But either you don't see it, in which case you should be glad I'm pointing it out to you, or you don't care, in which case go away.

<Dracula> I think it's wonderful in an ironic way that a man is really arguing that women do not need to be accomodated in a predominatly male environment and supporting this by saying men are too emotional and can't handle conflict! Well, it makes a change, at least.

<Dracula> I can't say enough times that women fully understand the male point of view. We really do. How can we not, when the whole forum is just men blathering on? How could we read it and not come away with male opinions? How could we play a game, target demographic young men, made by men, and not come away with male opinions? It's you who needs to understand our opinions. You don't know them or you wouldn't say the foolish thin

<Dracula> Sergi Lazaro has time to post on a thread about how to welcome women into game making but not time to read and respond to women. He has time to give his opinions about women, no time to listen to women. You aren't helping women. You just love the sound of your own voice.

<Dracula> It's not good enough to not try and say men are victims. You need to actually not say it. You know, we are typing, we can look over what we type, we can edit our posts. If people are misinterpreting what you say, you can rephrase it.

<Dracula> If you dismiss what women say you are dismissing the issue. If you dismiss discussions about how to welcome women you are dismissing the issue. You don't get women-points if you just ignore everything to do with it, apart from where an angry woman called you a name on IRC, because that's certainly what this thread is to discuss (hint: that's sarcasm and this thread isn't about you).

<Dracula> Now Sergi Lazaro you said you wanted to understand, you said you didn't know why I called you a dickhead. Well here it is. Read, re-read, read again. If you still don't see the problem, you still think you are being reasonable and I'm so mean, then try this: if what you are saying is upsetting someone, you have two options. You can not say it, so that you won't be upsetting them, or you can keep saying it, and

<Dracula> they will be upset. It's okay, you can do either. But if you say it, and they are upset, don't you dare tell them not to be upset. That is the height of condescending. You can't have both.