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- rec.sport.hockey ›
- CANUCK NEWS: Who else? Pavel Bure.
- 1 post by 1 author
- Alan Chim
- 11/5/91
- To no one's surprise Don Cherry does NOT like Pavel Bure.
- However, he will like the fact that Bure will NOT be wearing a visor like
- those Swedish players :)
- ~~~~
- rec.collecting ›
- Cards
- 1 post by 1 author
- Alan Chim
- 11/5/91
- I'm looking to buy the following boxes of cards. All I'm looking for is
- a general price idea as I'll be going to one card show in the States and
- one in Canada on two different days, so I'd like to know what the price
- ranges for the cards I desire will be. They are as follows:
- Star Trek Trading Cards (Impel)
- Little Mermaid Trading Cards (Pro Set)
- Topps Hockey 1991-92
- OPC Hockey 1991-92
- Score Hockey (All versions)
- Any other hockey that has come out and is readily available at card
- shows.
- Thanks for your input on the pricing of the above items.
- Alan Chim Internet --> al...@arkham.wimsey.bc.ca (preferred)
- Alternate --> alan...@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca
- Net (FAQ) Contact for the Vancouver Canucks
- "Pavel Bure, streaking down the right wing side, winds up, shoots, he scores!"\
- ~~~
- XA 6: R ATKINS.CO1
- MAUG CONFERENCE (Part 1) Sept. 23, 1984
- 9:00 P.M. EDT
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
- [ This longest-ever conference featured Bill "Iron Man"
- Atkinson, and ran
- over five hours including rain delays. To put that in
- perspective,
- five hours is long enough for TWO Boston marathons, long
- enough to
- drive from New York to Washington and back with Clara
- Peller, or long
- enough to watch nearly half of the Super Bowl pre-game
- show. Over 120
- MAUGers were present during the early part of the
- meeting, but by the
- end, at 2:30 A.M. Eastern time, fewer than 10 percent
- remained. The
- rest succumbed to drowsiness, prior commitments and/or
- the federal
- bankruptcy laws. --- Walt Marcinko 70320,244 ]
- ---<**********>---
- (Neil Shapiro / Sysop) -- Order, please. Our guest tonight
- is Bill Atkinson,
- author of the MacPaint program!
- (Mike Cohen) -- Not to mention ** QuickDraw **.
- Before we take questions from the audience, I have collected
- just a few
- questions that I am sure are on everyone's mind for Bill
- to answer. First,
- Bill, is MacPaint going to be updated for the new 512K
- Macs, and if so,
- what will be some of the additional features? Next, what
- other programs
- are you working on? And do you feel that the graphics
- potential of the Mac has been reached yet?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- 1) Version 1.4 of MacPaint is currently
- being shipped.
- All versions work fine on the 512K Mac, but version 1.4
- uses the extra
- memory to speed up scrolling quite a bit. No new
- features. Version 1.4
- also runs fine on the 128K Mac. 2) As for other programs,
- I am working
- on a dynamite new application for the Mac that I'm not at
- liberty to
- describe. Hold your horses, Mac fans. 3) Mac's graphic
- potential is
- barely tapped. In a few years the programs on Mac should
- be a lot
- smoother.
- (Neil S. / Sysop) -- Okay, Larry Loeb is the first
- questioner. Go ahead,
- Larry!
- (Larry Loeb) -- Welcome to MAUGing, Bill. As one of the
- people I can
- think of who has had some full experience with the 512K
- Mac, how do you
- feel it advances the "unfolding art" of the Mac? Is it
- just for developers?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Well, memory makes a lot of things
- possible, but it
- doesn't really change the Mac spirit. It takes more
- memory to make things
- easier to use. Wish we had the big chips to start with.
- Wish they were
- cheaper today.
- (Gary Shell) -- Is there a way to get a catalog to work on
- an alternate
- disk with a single drive machine?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Yes, open a document from that drive.
- Print Catalog
- uses the disk that the current document came from.
- (Gary Shell) -- Bill, that bombs!
- [ A few minutes later.]
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Just confirmed new bug in MacPaint. It
- does indeed bomb.
- Thanks for new info, will look into it.
- (David S. Rose) -- Bill, one question of concern to many of
- us Maccers is
- the question of compatibility between different types of
- graphics programs.
- For example, MacPaint seems to use a pixel type of
- definition, while MacDraw
- uses QuickDraw calls and Filevision seems to use a
- combination. Is there
- any hope for a better integration or conversion between
- types?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- The unstructured bitmap, as used in
- MacPaint, is the
- lowest common denominator. All the other graphics can be
- converted to it,
- with the loss of their structure. Bitmaps can represent
- anything the
- printer can print, including scanned images and freehand
- painting. You
- can paste QuickDraw pictures into MacPaint, and for
- full-page images I'm
- sure someone will write a utility to convert a Draw Page
- to a Paint document.
- (Paul Dobbs) -- Two short questions: 1) Is there any
- possibility of our
- seeing Rolodex as a desk accessory? Sure would be nice!
- 2) Do you know
- of any efforts to make a character-recognition program for
- the Mac to go
- with any of the video digitizers?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- 1) Rolodex searches fast because the
- data is all in RAM.
- Desk accessories are limited to 8K bytes of heap use on
- the 128K Mac. Also,
- Rolodex needs a home base for the RoloFile to live, which
- doesn't work too
- well if you're swapping disks. 2) I don't KNOW of anybody
- doing character
- recognition for the scanners, but it sounds like a great
- idea, especially
- for the Thunder scanner which can take in a whole page at
- high resolution.
- (Chris Goodman) -- Bill, is it possible to work with
- QuickDraw commands to
- create regions larger than the Mac screen but would fit on
- one page of
- paper? If so, are the tricks available in "Inside
- Macintosh"?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Easy: OpenRgn; MoveTo, LineTo...
- CloseRgn. Coordinates
- can range up to 32K, independent of Mac screen size.
- "Inside Macintosh"
- contains complete documentation on QuickDraw.
- (Chris & Pam Allen) -- Bill, I want to thank you not only
- for MacPaint, but
- for your contributions to public-domain software. Two
- questions: Pam asks
- if you consider yourself an artist, and I ask if you mind
- the MacPaint
- takeoffs, like mousepaint for the PC (even uses your
- icons!).
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- The whole point of MacPaint is to
- unleash the artist in
- all of us. Yes, even I am an artist, though I'm not very
- skilled at draw-
- ing. I would love it if the MacPaint clones were building
- and improving
- on MacPaint. Most of them seem to mislead people into
- thinking that Mac-
- Paint runs on their IBM system, and people may be duped
- into buying a PC
- instead of a Mac.
- (Lane Hauck) -- What's your affiliation with Koala
- Technologies, and have
- you seen any other good camera digitizers for the Mac?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I am a good friend of George White,
- chairman of Koala,
- and I wrote a desk accessory for the Koala Camera which
- lets you scan
- images into MacPaint or other applications. Koala has a
- license with
- Apple for the software. No, I don't know of any other
- good camera inter-
- faces for the Mac. Thunderscan is nice but takes 20
- minutes per scan
- instead of 5 seconds.
- (Richard J. Boyhan) -- Bill, I have two personnel
- questions. 1) Could we
- have a little history on Bill Atkinson (birth, school,
- work, etc.)? Nothing
- too long! 2) What hardware are you using now?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Born 3/17/51 in Ottumwa, Iowa. Jumped
- from second-story
- window at age one. UCSD Undergraduate in ... Chemistry!!
- University of
- Washington graduate in ... Neuroscience and Electronics.
- Joined Apple in
- March, 1978, employee #51. Will have first baby in 3
- weeks, oh boy! (Girl.)
- I am typing on a 128K Mac with MacTerm 1.1 and an Apple
- 1200 modem. My
- room has Lisas, Macs, Apple IIs, and prototypes.
- (Neil S. / Sysop) -- Bet we would all like to hear about
- those "prototypes".
- (Arthur Greenwald) -- Bill, you're a true artist. I use
- MacPaint for TV
- storyboards and to design menus for my wife's catering
- business. I love
- MacPaint, but it's hard to keep a lot of small text lined
- up. (Grid incre-
- ments are too large.) 1) Will future software enable
- larger screen work
- areas? 2) Can other printers like the HP LaserJet or
- Canon Laser create
- sharper camera-ready images?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Far out! Glad to see somebody using
- MacPaint for real
- thing! 1) No. 2) Looks great on prototype Apple laser
- printer!
- (James Doherty) -- MacPaint is great for making forms at
- work. My question
- is: Are there any plans that you know of for including
- any of the new
- graphics standards such as NAPLPS, and would QuickDraw
- routines be of
- help in this?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I have heard of a few groups who are
- bringing up NAPLPS
- interpreters for Mac, built on top of QuickDraw. Also ...
- [ a line may
- have been lost here] ... consider writing a word processor
- in either
- of these.
- (Bill Davis) -- When you spoke about Desk Accessories, you
- said that you
- were limited to 8K. Is that program and data, or just the
- program?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- When you are a Desk Accessory, you are a
- guest in some-
- one else's house, so you should be as inconspicuous as
- possible. We have
- settled on informal standards of 8K bytes of total heap
- usage (code +
- data) on a 128K Mac.
- [ continued in "ATKINS.CO2" ]
- XA 6: R ATKINS.CO2
- MAUG CONFERENCE (Part 2) Sept. 23, 1984
- 9:00 P.M. EDT
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
- (Jerry G. Harris) -- Are there any QuickDraw routines
- tailored for 3-D?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- There's a whole unit called Graf3D. It
- is available
- from Tech Support and it layers 3-D transforms on top of
- QuickDraw.
- (Neil S. / Sysop) -- Can anyone get that or just
- developers?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- All developers have it already
- (including all consortium
- universities). Ask a friend for a copy.
- (Hal Finney) -- MacPaint manages to update the screen
- literally in the blink
- of an eye (between one frame and the next), but for me
- QuickDraw takes
- several frames for some operations. What's the magic
- involved?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Open the pod bay doors first, Hal...
- Seriously, MacPaint
- uses QuickDraw to draw into an off-screen bitmap, then
- transfers the result
- to the screen to avoid any flicker.
- (Ronald Jones) -- 1) Will the Finder or operating system
- provide for tree-
- structure directories in the near future? 2) Is Steve
- Jobs as immature as
- he appears in recent interviews? 3) Is the day of the
- hacker gone, in
- favor of the "serious developer"?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- 1) Yes. 2) No. 3) Who knows?
- (William J. Jones) -- Will dealers have the MacPaint 1.4
- update?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- MacPaint 1.4 is the current production
- version being
- shipped with all Macs, including 512K machines, which take
- advantage of 1.4.
- There are [ system dropped line(s) here ]
- (Phil Porter) -- Will MacPaint eventually support light
- pens or digitizer
- tablets?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Nothing in the works from Apple, but I
- know of two tablet
- makers who are writing mouse drivers for Mac, and their
- tablets will be
- usable with all Mac programs.
- [ At this point, CIS appeared to have suffered a
- significant system
- failure, causing many MAUGers, including CO guest Atkinson
- and beloved
- Sysop Shapiro, to be dropped from the network. The
- conference resumed
- after about 40 minutes of collective thumb-twiddling.]
- (Neil S. / Sysop) -- Okay, order everyone. Let's try to
- get this thing
- going again.
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I'm back!!! Stupid computers, hate them
- anyway.
- (Neil S. / Sysop) -- The next person before the disaster
- struck was to have
- been Marion Stokes. Marion, do you remember your
- question?
- (Marion Stokes) -- Welcome back, Bill. Will the 512K Mac
- accept the full
- range of font numbers, up to 511 with positive ID's?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I don't know. We have made no changes
- to the ROMs or
- to Font Mover, just added more memory. Sorry.
- (Bill Steinberg / Alt.Sysop) -- The problem is with Font
- Mover, not with
- ROMs or System or fonts. Use RMOVER in our XA4 database
- for numbers
- higher than 256.
- (Marion Stokes) -- Get negatives when past 253.
- (Dennis Brothers / Alt.Sysop) -- Bill A., it's sad but true
- that the best
- graphics on //s (and IBMs) are achieved by programs which
- bypass the ROMs
- and go to screen memory directly. Do you think the same
- will be true of
- the Mac, or will QuickDraw be good enough for the Bill
- Budges of the world?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I believe 95% of Mac programs will find
- QuickDraw suffi-
- cient. For those with special requirements, where
- specialized code is
- worth it, the Mac has a very clean screen mapping that
- makes things simple.
- Also, if you insist on hitting the screen directly, use
- address $7A700,
- which will work for both the 512K and 128K Macs because of
- wrap-around
- addressing.
- (Kerry Lynn) -- 1) Does QuickDraw represent region
- boundaries using run-
- length encoding? 2) Will Apple be licensing QuickDraw
- technology? Is
- there a contact?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Mac is an "open system", including a
- disassembler. I
- worked for quite a long time developing QuickDraw for
- Apple, and I hope
- people will respect the investment Apple has put into Mac.
- Please don't
- rip me off. But if you must, the best place to look is at
- ROM address
- ... disconnect security violation.
- -- I think Kerry hit my question. Will you be able to
- produce
- pseudocode logic for some of your QuickDraw routines in
- future Comp
- Graphics text? Also, how is Alan Kay doing?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Unfortunately, the algorithms invented
- for Apple in
- QuickDraw are still important for the success of
- Macintosh. I would like
- to tell all, but don't want to hurt Mac. Alan Kay is doing
- "INSANELY GREAT".
- (Ray Fleischmann) -- Since Mac is still so new, there
- haven't been many
- conflicts with fonts/icons and their assigned Resource ID
- numbers. But
- as time goes on there will be more and more fonts/icons by
- people other
- than Apple. What, if anything, is Apple going to do to
- keep everyone
- from walking all over each other's fonts/icons. Will
- Apple keep MAUG
- and current users posted?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Fonts and icons are a bit different.
- Icons have a local
- ID number which does not conflict with the global ID
- assigned by the Finder
- when installing into the desktop, so you don't have to
- worry there. (Saved
- by the bundle.) Fonts do have to be unique. Cary Clark
- is helping assign
- the limited 256 font IDs and we are working out a way to
- allow 65,536
- different fonts. Still, you would want to get a block of
- numbers from
- Tech Support.
- (Neil S. / Sysop) -- Well, it is getting on past midnight
- on the East Coast.
- Before getting the last group of questions, I'd just like
- to thank Bill
- very much for having been here, and Bill, I hope that you
- will be able to
- make other COs in the future.
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Why do we have to stop at midnight?
- (Bill S. / Alt.Sysop) -- (Neil maybe has to stop at
- midnight.)
- (Neil S. / Sysop) -- We don't if you're game!
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I'm game all night.
- (Steve Meuse) -- Bill, I read that the QuickDraw routines
- support color.
- Will a hypothetical color Macintosh using these routines
- have less hori-
- zontal resolution than the black-and-white display (a la
- Apple ///)?
- Also, who are writing mouse drivers for graphics tablets,
- if you can say?
- Finally, were you really online for the practice CO as
- "Elmer Pix"?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- 1) Depends on which hypothetical color
- Mac you had in
- mind to invent. 2) Summagraphics, and another that I
- forget. 3) Sho'nuff.
- (Neil S. / Sysop) -- Okay. Well, Dennis Brothers, who is a
- programmer and
- hence never sleeps, tells me that he can take over the CO
- to allow me to
- get enough sleep that I can catch my 7 A.M. train
- tomorrow!
- (Bill S. / Alt.Sysop) -- (I told you Neil wasn't allowed up
- past 12.)
- (Nel S. / Alt.Sysop) -- So, I am just going to personally
- thank Bill
- Atkinson for being here and all of you for making the MAUG
- CO the most
- popular conference line on the network! Dennis, carry
- that torch!
- (Dennis Brothers / Alt.Sysop) -- Okay. <stage fright>
- Take it, Doug Olson.
- (Douglas K. Olson) -- Bill, I am using MacForth to write an
- application
- for the Mac. I have "Inside Macintosh" but find it hard
- to understand
- calls without being able to experiment. (No Lisa/Pascal.)
- Thus, how does
- one update a window bitmap after a window has been
- reactivated (i.e.,
- holes left in window from overlaps)? Also, how does one
- update window
- areas after a scrollbits?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Sorry, but I haven't used MacForth yet,
- so I can't help
- you there. In general, updates are handled by calling
- BeginUpdate, then
- drawing entire contents (will be clipped automatically),
- then EndUpdate.
- After a ScrollRect call, you should SetClip to the
- UpdateRgn returned by
- ScrollRect, then draw window contents as usual. Hope I
- have been of some
- help. Perhaps you could send a message on MAUG asking for
- MacForth
- programmers to help you out.
- (Don Krapf) -- A few days ago on the message board you
- mentioned that the
- 512K upgrade has a few new runs and a new pad for a PAL.
- Is any of this
- for anything other than addressing the new memory?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- No. The board rev is just for the new
- memory.
- (Bill Steinberg / Alt.Sysop) -- How would one go about
- getting a formal
- description of the structure of the directory and of the
- desktop file
- maintained by the Finder?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- The directory structure is spelled out
- in the File
- Manager document in "Inside Macintosh". I don't know
- where to get the
- Finder stuff. (Try Cary Clark?)
- (Dick Weismann) -- Could you briefly explain how a MacPaint
- file can be
- "translated" for output to a digital phototypesetter?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- First, read the MacPaint document format
- described in
- an appendix to "Inside Mac". Basically you skip the
- 512-byte header,
- then the rest is 720 scanlines, each 576 bits wide, but
- packed with
- PackBits. Use UnpackBits to unpack each scanline, then do
- whatever you
- want to the bits. George Litho and Compugraphic offer a
- service if
- you don't want to write your own. Have fun!
- [ continued in "ATKINS.CO3" ]
- XA 6: R ATKINS.CO3
- MAUG CONFERENCE (Part 3) Sept. 23, 1984
- 9:00 P.M. EDT
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
- (Walt Marcinko) -- Bill, here's a question we've
- traditionally asked of
- CO guests since the late '50s. What is your favorite
- color?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Green.
- (Dennis B. / Alt.Sysop) -- Leave it to Walt to ask the hard
- questions!
- (Walt Marcinko) -- "It's a dirty job, but..."
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I was just informed by Apple's corporate
- counsel that
- I am not authorized to discuss matters relating to color.
- (Walt Marcinko) -- (The goons strike again.)
- (Jerry G. Harris) -- Bill, what role does the 68020
- microprocessor play
- in the future Mac?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- The 68020 screams like a bat out of
- hell, and all Mac
- code runs on it without change. Apple would be stupid not
- to build the
- 68020 into some future machine. The only question is when.
- (Ken Elinger) -- Which language do you like to program in?
- 68000, C, Pascal?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- All of the above. Usually I start in
- Pascal and rewrite
- the critical parts in 68K. I'm fairly new to C, but it
- seems to get the
- job done with the minimum of wrist-slaps.
- (Dennis B. / Alt.Sysop) -- Is there a profiler for Lisa
- Pascal that runs
- on the Mac?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I'm not sure. It would be pretty easy
- to write one,
- using the extra memory of a 512K Mac to hold the data.
- (R Jones) -- Doesn't Motorola put out a 12Mhz 68K, and if
- so, why didn't
- Apple use it?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- Not in Mac [sales] volumes!
- (Douglas K. Olson) -- Bill, I have three questions. Answer
- if able.
- 1) Can we expect Lisa-type concurrency on the Mac? Via a
- desk accessory
- maybe? 2) As far as RAM is concerned, what's beyond 512K?
- I've heard
- a wish/rumor that Apple might be putting a 3.5" 20-Meg
- hard drive INSIDE
- a future Mac. True? 3) Where would you personally like
- to see the Mac
- of the future go?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- 1) I'm not sure what you mean on the
- concurrency. Mac
- already lets the Calculator, Notepad, etc. run
- concurrently. The 512K
- Mac may allow larger desk accessories that come closer to
- being full
- applications. 2) I think we'll stick with 512K for a
- while. It really
- helps developers to settle on a common configuration, and
- 512K is pretty
- nice. 3) I personally want to see Mac getting into homes.
- Individual
- people using computers to enhance their personal
- creativity and
- satisfaction.
- (Walt Marcinko) -- Bill, to follow up on an earlier line of
- questioning,
- what is your favorite Mac font?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I personally designed the cursive font
- we call Venice,
- but my own favorite font is Athens because it is so strong
- and crisp.
- I also like the Paris font that Cliff Joyce designed for
- Mac the Knife.
- (Marion Stokes) -- First, thanks a million for the game of
- Life. Is there
- any animation package from Apple or anyone besides the Ann
- Arbor group?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- MacroMind is working on a neat animation
- package that
- lets you edit music and bitmaps both. I don't know when
- they will ship,
- but they have some great people and what I've seen so far
- looks great.
- (Bill S. / Alt.Sysop) -- I have a LOT of fonts and I like
- to have them
- available to MacPaint. I can either put them all into the
- System file
- (making a System file of over 200K), or I can put them
- into MacPaint's
- resource fork, making for a huge MacPaint and a small
- System. My Mac-
- Paint disk has ONLY MacPaint on it, so I don't care if the
- fonts are
- "unavailable" to other applications (in this case). Is
- there an advantage
- to storing the fonts in one place rather than the other
- (speed, etc.)?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I think you understand the options about
- as well as I do.
- Try it each way and let me know which works better for
- you. I'm sure it's
- affected by whether you have an external drive. Good
- luck!
- (Dennis B. / Alt.Sysop) -- That brings up one of the
- commoner questions we
- get on MAUG. People are always running out of space for
- MacPaint work
- files on the MacPaint system disk. Is there any way to
- force the work
- files to a data disk in the external drive?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- No. Paint1 and Paint2 work files
- are opened on volume 0.
- Have heart, if you get so rich and lucky as to have a 512K
- Mac, Paint1 and
- Paint2 disappear and the entire document stays in memory.
- This makes
- scrolling mucho faster! Note that version 1.4, the
- current release, has
- this enhancement.
- (Jerry Tompkins) -- Have you heard anything recently about
- progress of
- the Lotus project? What is it going to look like? Any
- ideas?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I saw it a long time ago and it looked
- pretty nice then.
- I don't think I'm supposed to give details about it, since
- they showed it
- in confidence. "Soon".
- (Ken Addison) -- I was/am one of the "few" people working
- with the now
- unsupported Clascal/Toolkit for Lisa. I really like
- object programming.
- Is there any chance of an object-oriented programming
- language on the Mac?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- I don't know if Apple has plans to bring
- the Toolkit
- over to Mac, since most developers are asking for C right
- now. Somebody
- will undoubtedly bring up various object-oriented
- languages on the Mac.
- Ask in the message section.
- (Dennis B. / Alt.Sysop) -- What's the current and future
- status of Apple
- support for independent development on the Lisa?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- You're getting in over my head. I know
- mostly about
- MacPaint, QuickDraw and writing code. Dan Cochran knows
- better what
- Apple is up to along those lines. Most developers seem to
- be a lot more
- interested in Mac because of the number of machines out
- there. Lisa seems
- to be getting a surge of interest coming mainly from Mac.
- (Dennis B. / Alt.Sysop) -- Just thought I'd try. We've
- already beaten Dan
- over the head with that one. Okay, one more probing
- question from Walt
- Marcinko.
- (Walt Marcinko) -- Bill, do you feel that jumping out that
- second-story
- window played any part in your success as a programmer?
- (BILL ATKINSON) -- No, I'm told that I landed on my butt.
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