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David

a guest Jul 7th, 2014 1,141 Never
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  1.  
  2. I'm curious as to which shitheels, David - seriously. I suspect you and I are in alignment on this one, but other opinions are always welcome.
  3.  
  4. Curt Thompson4 Jul 2014
  5.  
  6.  
  7.  
  8.  
  9. YYyyyyyeeep.
  10.  
  11. David Hill4 Jul 2014+13
  12. 4
  13. 3
  14.  
  15.  
  16. Pundit makes a point of vocally, very aggressively attacking a lot of people in the indie community. Zak S similarly has gone far out of his way cause shit for good people, as part of his marketing strategy.
  17.  
  18. These people are regressive, exclusive, and not people whose opinions I would lend credence to for a game I wanted to appeal to reasonable people. 
  19. Show less
  20.  
  21. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+5
  22. 6
  23. 5
  24.  
  25.  
  26. Yep, as I thought. I encountered Smith earlier today, and he was lauding the 'virtues' of game design/discussion by way of Social Darwinism. I don't even know what the guy's written or markets, but I already don't like him.
  27.  
  28. David Hill4 Jul 2014+3
  29. 4
  30. 3
  31.  
  32.  
  33. He's done some OSR/Lamentations of the Flame Princess stuff. And he's got a blog called D&D With Porn Stars and (I think formerly?) had a web show called I Hit It With My Axe.
  34.  
  35. But yeah. #notmyhobby  
  36.  
  37. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+11
  38. 2
  39. 1
  40.  
  41.  
  42. Seriously - what kind of crap excuse for a human being do you have to be to proudly state that bullying and denigrating people is good because it 'eliminates the weak'?
  43.  
  44. Soren Roberts4 Jul 2014+4
  45. 5
  46. 4
  47.  
  48.  
  49. Fandom has low standards, and a habit of lowering standards to accommodate ever-worse behavior.
  50.  
  51. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+4
  52. 5
  53. 4
  54.  
  55.  
  56. Ah, now I know who he is. I am, to be civil here, not a fan of that particular crowd - Pundit, Smith, Raggi in particular.
  57.  
  58. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+5
  59. 6
  60. 5
  61.  
  62.  
  63. #iwillnotrantiwillnotrantiwillnotrant  
  64.  
  65. Dave Michalak4 Jul 2014+1
  66. 2
  67. 1
  68.  
  69.  
  70. ...guy couldn't even be arsed to use his real name for credit on the biggest RPG project he could ever hope to contribute to?
  71.  
  72. Curt Thompson4 Jul 2014+12
  73. 3
  74. 2
  75.  
  76.  
  77. +Dave Michalak He can't use his real name. If his behavior in the RPG industry/hobby is tied to his real life, he might actually have to face up to people in his everyday life knowing exactly who and what he is.
  78.  
  79. David Hill4 Jul 2014+5
  80. 6
  81. 5
  82.  
  83.  
  84. He's not known for his real name. He's using the name people would know him by. He's known for that name, because of his vitriol and hate for inclusive and progressive gamers. 
  85.  
  86. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014
  87.  
  88.  
  89.  
  90.  
  91. Ok, I lied and ended up ranting. Argh.
  92.  
  93. Fred Hicks4 Jul 2014+46
  94. 7
  95. 6
  96.  
  97.  
  98. I'm glad they talked to those guys. And I say this as someone who actively hates Zak (something I don't say about many people), like I really think he should self-eject from this planet. Pundit is too extreme for me to ever take seriously, but yah, seriously negative too.
  99.  
  100. But it's a big big big leap to go from seeing their names on that list and conclude that they're being pandered to.
  101.  
  102. When I look at that list I see a huge amount of breadth in the perspectives on what D&D is. There are certainly gaps. But talking to the darker sides of the hobby when you're deploying the flagship brand of the hobby is good research.
  103.  
  104. At minimum you'll learn about things you probably shouldn't do. :) If I wanted to write a book about cops, I'd do well to talk to some criminals after all.
  105.  
  106. I'm not saying that's what they for sure did here, but if I did it'd be no greater of a jumped-to conclusion than the notion the they're automatically getting pandered to.
  107.  
  108. All the credit represents for sure is that a conversation happened. 
  109. Show less
  110.  
  111. Brian Newman4 Jul 2014+4
  112. 5
  113. 4
  114.  
  115.  
  116. Out of all the people who could contribute something meaningful, inventive, thoughtful, helpful, or anything else, WOTC chose them.
  117.  
  118. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014
  119.  
  120.  
  121.  
  122.  
  123. That's an excellent point, Fred. Also a kind of depressing one.
  124.  
  125. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+1
  126. 2
  127. 1
  128.  
  129.  
  130. To be fair +Brian Newman - the other names on that list are pure awesome.
  131.  
  132. Brian Newman4 Jul 2014+7
  133. 8
  134. 7
  135.  
  136.  
  137. +Mark Carroll They are, and I respect what most of them do.  But this is a bit like a credit "...with special guest, Orson Scott Card".
  138.  
  139. David Guyll4 Jul 2014+2
  140. 3
  141. 2
  142.  
  143.  
  144. +Fred Hicks I had the displeasure of getting into a, well, "argument" with Zak about a week ago, and I share your sentiments.
  145.  
  146. Now, if the RPGPundit is worse than him? Just how much research into the "darker sides" of the hobby did they need? o_o
  147.  
  148. Fred Hicks4 Jul 2014+8
  149. 9
  150. 8
  151.  
  152.  
  153. Pundit may be ambulatory poison but he also operates as the defacto head of a fairly large community of gamers online. If you're gonna run the risk of alienating a large population it makes sense to get an idea of how far it'll go. Democrat politicos survey red state populations for similar reasons. :)
  154.  
  155. David Hill4 Jul 2014+4
  156. 5
  157. 4
  158.  
  159.  
  160. What +Brian Newman said. There are tons of very thoughtful OSR people out there. There are plenty who have created engaging, interesting things. There are plenty who have provided extensive thoughts on what the game is or could be.
  161.  
  162. But they chose those two. Those two, who are known specifically for their hate, not for their creation. Hell. Raggi's a better source here. I don't like the guy, but at least his opinions hold some weight. I don't see the value in consulting with people whose claim to fame is hurting people.
  163.  
  164. I don't agree with the cop analogy, +Fred Hicks. This wouldn't be like consulting with criminals. This would be consulting with Ann Coulter. Her opinion on cops really has limited value, but you're consulting with her because she has a high profile name for trying to hurt good people unrelated to the actual topic you're writing about. And you don't need to consult with her to know her opinion on cops: They enforce the Obama police state, but they put black people in prison. So, net win for her.
  165. Show less
  166.  
  167. David Hill4 Jul 2014+4
  168. 5
  169. 4
  170.  
  171.  
  172. Yeah. This is writing a book about science fiction where "a breadth of perspective" means consulting with Orson Scott Card, but not Octavia Butler. 
  173.  
  174. David Guyll4 Jul 2014+1
  175. 2
  176. 1
  177.  
  178.  
  179. +Brandon Schmelz Ignoring the women in additional contributors and the section drawing from further development by, and I assume a not inconsiderable percentage of playtesters I guess, what, they couldn't talk to women about various things and incorporate it?
  180.  
  181. Plus, on page 33 there are two paragraphs on not conforming to gender roles/notions and sexual bahavior (for both men and women alike).
  182.  
  183. Plus plus, in the starter kit art there are more than a few women decked out in non-boob-revealing armor (at least one with scars, gasp!), and even the wizard types aren't sticking their asses in your face.
  184. Read more
  185.  
  186. Brian Newman4 Jul 2014+3
  187. 4
  188. 3
  189.  
  190.  
  191. +David Guyll Yes, there is slight movement forward, and a few steps back.
  192.  
  193. Fred Hicks4 Jul 2014+11
  194. 2
  195. 1
  196.  
  197.  
  198. If you say so. I don't think it changes the reality that you're engaging in wild conjecture, here, but whatever. I have no real dog in this hunt. I just wish this had been brought up in a way that read as considered instead of knee jerk. 
  199.  
  200. Olman Feelyus4 Jul 2014+3
  201. 4
  202. 3
  203.  
  204.  
  205. Seriously, you can not be happy about the inclusion of some individuals in the development of the game, but "argh fuck this piece of shit game" is going a bit far.
  206.  
  207. Everything bad those two have done has been limited strictly to words, words in a very teeny sector of a very small community.
  208.  
  209. And I say this as someone banned from therpgsite and on Zak's ignore list.
  210. Read more
  211.  
  212. Isaac Sher4 Jul 2014+1
  213. 2
  214. 1
  215.  
  216.  
  217. *shrug* I don't like what I've seen of 5e mechanically, so I wasn't planning on buying it anyway.  
  218.  
  219. It's funny, when I was a kid, I would go to GenCon and wonder at why there were so many at-con games that made a point of saying that they were 1st Edition games, and all I could think about was "why do that do that?  2nd edition is out now, and it's better in every way..."
  220.  
  221. Now I understand those guys somewhat, 'cause I'll be carrying the torch for 4th for years to come.
  222. Read more
  223.  
  224. Andri Erlingsson4 Jul 2014+4
  225. 5
  226. 4
  227.  
  228.  
  229. +Fred Hicks There is such a thing as "toxic customers" and there are quite good reasons to avoid them, number one being that they poison the product for other customers.
  230.  
  231. Rogue Black4 Jul 2014+8
  232. 9
  233. 8
  234.  
  235.  
  236. I've even had an experience with Zak (and his girlfriend) and I make an effort to remain in the lurking shadows of the gamerverse. He goes way out of his way to find people to bully and bother.
  237.  
  238. David Hill4 Jul 2014+4
  239. 5
  240. 4
  241.  
  242.  
  243. +Olman Feelyus Fuck this game. Not, "fuck this piece of shit game". It might be a good game. From what I understand, it makes some clever design decisions, but it largely tries to appeal to a certain window of fans.
  244.  
  245. But I'm going to put my money on something where they were given any sort of value.
  246.  
  247. +Fred Hicks Maybe it's knee jerk. But honestly, that list speaks volumes to their values. 
  248. Read more
  249.  
  250. Curt Thompson4 Jul 2014+9
  251. 10
  252. 9
  253.  
  254.  
  255. "Hmm. David Duke and Strom Thurman are in the credits?"
  256.  
  257. "Yeah, but you totally shouldn't worry. There's a section about playing a person of color."
  258.  
  259. Olman Feelyus4 Jul 2014
  260.  
  261.  
  262.  
  263.  
  264. Sales are plummeting already.
  265.  
  266. Andri Erlingsson4 Jul 2014+1
  267. 2
  268. 1
  269.  
  270.  
  271. Bottom line: more important than people
  272.  
  273. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+2
  274. 3
  275. 2
  276.  
  277.  
  278. I know exactly how that feels, having shared a convention slate with John
  279. Ringo. Argh.
  280.  
  281. David Hill4 Jul 2014+8
  282. 9
  283. 8
  284.  
  285.  
  286. Yeah. I'd feel the same if they decided to consult with James Desborough. I wouldn't consider that knee jerk, either. This is a small list, and they've chosen to give a lot of weight toward people that are known for years of attacking and hurting people.
  287.  
  288. Zak Smith's fans still send us threats every time he brings up Filamena's name. He's readily aware of this. He flat-out told her that personal attacks make him money. 
  289. Show less
  290.  
  291. Jim Hanson4 Jul 2014+1
  292. 2
  293. 1
  294.  
  295.  
  296. Ah well.. we'll always have 3.5
  297.  
  298. Curt Thompson4 Jul 2014+8
  299. 9
  300. 8
  301.  
  302.  
  303. If I need more d20 dungeon crawling in my life, I'll go with Pathfinder and other lines from companies that have a proven track record of being inclusive and cool.
  304.  
  305. David Guyll4 Jul 2014
  306.  
  307.  
  308.  
  309.  
  310. +Rogue Black Agreed, which is why I quickly started ignoring him when it was evident he was not trying to engage in an actual conversation.
  311.  
  312. +Brandon Schmelz In response to the first part, how do you know they did not? There were over 175,000 playtesters, and who knows who the designers, contributors, and consultants know.
  313.  
  314. As for the second part...so?
  315.  
  316. I am guessing that the additional contributors had a larger hand in the design than the consultants, there were plenty of opportunities to mention grievances in the playtest feedback, and they also trawled blogs, forums, and comments.
  317.  
  318. I mean, there are women in like, every other credit section. What is next, complaining if there is not at least one person of a given sexual orientation and/or ethnicity in every category?
  319. Read more (14 lines)
  320.  
  321. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+3
  322. 4
  323. 3
  324.  
  325.  
  326. I want to be crystal clear here because I respect the hell out of folks
  327. here in the thread: I don't like Zak or Pundit, to put it mildly.
  328.  
  329. David, you and Filamena are awesome people, so Smith can go perform an
  330. auto-penile rectal exam. So can his fans.
  331.  
  332. ASH LAW4 Jul 2014+9
  333. 10
  334. 9
  335.  
  336.  
  337. Some people on that list I really respect, and some that I really don't respect. I wonder if all parties knew that they would be mentioned in the same sentence together?
  338.  
  339. Paul Ettin4 Jul 2014+17
  340. 8
  341. 7
  342.  
  343.  
  344. I think it's less about pandering and more about giving a dude who constructs hit lists of women and pro-LGBT people any attention, at all. What possible insights can be gained from hiring someone who directs his fans to send threatening messages to minority people instead of literally anyone else?
  345.  
  346. David Hill4 Jul 2014
  347.  
  348.  
  349.  
  350.  
  351. +ASH LAW That's a really good question.
  352.  
  353. Andri Erlingsson4 Jul 2014+7
  354. 8
  355. 7
  356.  
  357.  
  358. Consulting a stalking transphobe in a game that tries to be friendly to everyone is something of a baffling decision, true.
  359.  
  360. Brian Newman4 Jul 2014+5
  361. 6
  362. 5
  363.  
  364.  
  365. +Paul Ettin That's why I wondered in another thread how WOTC was hoping to boost their sales by listing them as consultants.  Who was the target audience?  And do I want to be playing the same games that they do?
  366.  
  367. Paul Ettin4 Jul 2014+4
  368. 5
  369. 4
  370.  
  371.  
  372. I do get where +Fred Hicks is coming from in that hearing what human garbage like Zak S has to say can provide useful context, but surely someone should have considered what impression an unqualified shout-out to someone who literally stalks other community figures would give. 
  373.  
  374. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014
  375.  
  376.  
  377.  
  378.  
  379. Also a good point, Paul. Argh again. I feel like I've stirred up some awful
  380. shit here, so 'scuse me while I try and remove my foot from my mouth.
  381.  
  382. Rick Stump4 Jul 2014
  383.  
  384.  
  385.  
  386.  
  387. Plenty to offend all sides, I am sure
  388.  
  389. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+2
  390. 3
  391. 2
  392.  
  393.  
  394. Not really. Not in this case. Pundit made it his personal mission to drive
  395. one of my closest friends out of the business at one point; he's a shitbag.
  396. There comes a point where being merely offensive turns into a whole new
  397. level of douchebaggery; that toad passed it long ago.
  398.  
  399. Andri Erlingsson4 Jul 2014+8
  400. 9
  401. 8
  402.  
  403.  
  404. +Rick Stump The truth is not in the middle between "A person who stalks people online and tells them to commit suicide" and "People who don't want that"
  405.  
  406. Rick Stump4 Jul 2014
  407.  
  408.  
  409.  
  410.  
  411. +Andri Erlingsson nor did I write or think such
  412.  
  413. Alfred Rudzki4 Jul 2014+11
  414. 2
  415. 1
  416.  
  417.  
  418. I wonder how many messages WotC has received today about Pundit and Zack being reprehensible, and actively threatening to inclusiveness in the hobby.
  419.  
  420. I don't know how many, so let's call it n, and I think I'm going to go make it n+1
  421. Show less
  422.  
  423. David Hill4 Jul 2014
  424.  
  425.  
  426.  
  427.  
  428. +Alfred Rudzki Amen. 
  429.  
  430. Alfred Rudzki4 Jul 2014+2
  431. 3
  432. 2
  433.  
  434.  
  435. Alls I know is that people begged for a printer friendly PDF and got it in no time -- I choose to hope enough emails and they'll make a doesnt thank jerks PDF.
  436.  
  437. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+1
  438. 2
  439. 1
  440.  
  441.  
  442. I endorse this strategy.
  443.  
  444. Olman Feelyus4 Jul 2014+3
  445. 4
  446. 3
  447.  
  448.  
  449. Let n = 4.
  450.  
  451. David Hill4 Jul 2014+1
  452. 2
  453. 1
  454.  
  455.  
  456. Also, FWIW, a friend of mine says that his final version physical copies feature Pundit by his real name. 
  457.  
  458. Paul Ettin4 Jul 2014+12
  459. 3
  460. 2
  461.  
  462.  
  463. When Zak inevitably starts another creepy hit list of people who posted about this so his fans can harass them, I'm going to go ahead and email a copy of everything I get to Mearls, individually. That'll be my n+1.
  464.  
  465. Paul Ettin4 Jul 2014+1
  466. 2
  467. 1
  468.  
  469.  
  470. ofc last time the emails were sent to RPGnet in the hopes of getting me demodded and there were only like three of them, so maybe more like n+½.
  471.  
  472. Laura Hamilton4 Jul 2014+5
  473. 6
  474. 5
  475.  
  476.  
  477. Yeah, shit like this makes me super uncomfortable with the newest edition to the franchise.
  478.  
  479. The worst part is knowing how many people will remain blissfully unaware that this is a problem and get defensive because they were never the targets of some the hateful shit those two have put out.
  480. Read more
  481.  
  482. David Hill4 Jul 2014+11
  483. 2
  484. 1
  485.  
  486.  
  487. Also?
  488.  
  489. Apparently these consultations were paid.
  490.  
  491. So, at this point, it would literally be giving money to a company who pays people that stalk and hurt my family.
  492.  
  493. So yeah. Fuck that plus.
  494. Show less
  495.  
  496. Alfred Rudzki4 Jul 2014+1
  497. 2
  498. 1
  499.  
  500.  
  501. Well that's shitty.
  502.  
  503. Also, email sent. Let's see how that goes.
  504.  
  505. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+1
  506. 2
  507. 1
  508.  
  509.  
  510. I'll point out that harassment like that is something you can report to the
  511. FBI's IC3 unit. Worked wonders for me when I acquired a creepster a few
  512. years back. Terroristic threats across state lines are a Federal crime.
  513.  
  514. David Hill4 Jul 2014+1
  515. 2
  516. 1
  517.  
  518.  
  519. +Mark Carroll It hasn't happened in a while. But, if it does again, it's happening.
  520.  
  521. Although, at this point it's international lines. So I wonder how that'd work?
  522.  
  523. Dave Michalak4 Jul 2014+1
  524. 2
  525. 1
  526.  
  527.  
  528. Ugh. I wish people whose work I enjoy wouldn't turn out to be assholes. So disappointing.
  529.  
  530. Andri Erlingsson4 Jul 2014+1
  531. 2
  532. 1
  533.  
  534.  
  535. +Alfred Rudzki is there a site I can point people to that lists the email address clearly?
  536.  
  537. Paul Ettin4 Jul 2014+1
  538. 2
  539. 1
  540.  
  541.  
  542. +David Hill Well you're a US citizen, right? They'd probably still give a shit, especially considering he tends to harass groups of people.
  543.  
  544. Alfred Rudzki4 Jul 2014+2
  545. 3
  546. 2
  547.  
  548.  
  549. +Andri Erlingsson I WISH. Feedback can only be given via form, with a WotC account. I had one from Next beta so I used it. One could try calling the company phone listed under Contact Us, but I dunno.
  550.  
  551. Under Contact Us, there's an email tab that will ask you to log in.
  552.  
  553. Alfred Rudzki4 Jul 2014+3
  554. 4
  555. 3
  556.  
  557.  
  558. http://wizards.custhelp.com
  559.  
  560. David Hill4 Jul 2014
  561.  
  562.  
  563.  
  564.  
  565. +Paul Ettin Yes, we are still citizens. So, you might be right there. 
  566.  
  567. Mark Carroll4 Jul 2014+1
  568. 2
  569. 1
  570.  
  571.  
  572. What happens is that IC3 coordinates with whatever local law enforcement is
  573. in the area the threats originate. Then the hammer falls.
  574.  
  575. ASH LAW4 Jul 2014+1
  576. 2
  577. 1
  578.  
  579.  
  580. +David Hill would you mind if I tagged Mike Mearls in on this conversation?
  581.  
  582. David Hill4 Jul 2014+6
  583. 7
  584. 6
  585.  
  586.  
  587. +ASH LAW You're welcome to. Mearls is a good guy. I've done panels with him. I don't think he's done anything intentionally malicious. I just think it's a huge misstep, because it's not like these people hide their derision, hate, and harassment of minority groups. They wear it proudly on their sleeves. 
  588.  
  589. Paul Ettin4 Jul 2014
  590.  
  591.  
  592.  
  593.  
  594. That is pretty much where I'm at too, for what that's worth.
  595.  
  596. ASH LAW4 Jul 2014
  597.  
  598.  
  599.  
  600.  
  601. Cool. Then I summon +Mike Mearls 
  602.  
  603. Stephen King4 Jul 2014
  604.  
  605.  
  606.  
  607.  
  608. /sub
  609.  
  610. David Hill4 Jul 2014+4
  611. 5
  612. 4
  613.  
  614.  
  615. That said, I will totally take a paid consultation for later editions, with my job being purely to talk about who they should be consulting with.
  616.  
  617. This is only partly sarcastic. 
  618.  
  619. Chris Shaffer4 Jul 2014
  620.  
  621.  
  622.  
  623.  
  624. .
  625.  
  626. RJ Stewart4 Jul 2014
  627.  
  628.  
  629.  
  630.  
  631. /sub
  632.  
  633. Kyle Morton4 Jul 2014
  634.  
  635.  
  636.  
  637.  
  638. Tagging this
  639.  
  640. Joe Sosta4 Jul 2014+1
  641. 2
  642. 1
  643.  
  644.  
  645. /sub as I have nothing of value to add, but want to see what else is said. 
  646.  
  647. Olman Feelyus4 Jul 2014
  648.  
  649.  
  650.  
  651.  
  652. Rubberneckers wanting to see if there will be more drama.
  653.  
  654. Paul Ettin4 Jul 2014+4
  655. 5
  656. 4
  657.  
  658.  
  659. Or people who are interested when industry folk say things. Occam!®
  660.  
  661. Olman Feelyus4 Jul 2014
  662.  
  663.  
  664.  
  665.  
  666. Or people who think Mearls actually gives a shit.
  667.  
  668. Paul Ettin4 Jul 2014+1
  669. 2
  670. 1
  671.  
  672.  
  673. Why would that get your goat, though?
  674.  
  675. David Hill4 Jul 2014+6
  676. 7
  677. 6
  678.  
  679.  
  680. Man. You sure seem to give a shit, being that you've bothered spewing a few instances of the same dismissive drivel across a couple of my threads.
  681.  
  682. You seem to be wasting as much time as I am to tell me how much time I'm wasting. 
  683. Show less
  684.  
  685. Paul Ettin4 Jul 2014
  686.  
  687.  
  688.  
  689.  
  690. Gonna laugh if Mearls sees +ASH LAW tagged him, discovers some guys arguing over who cares the most about something nobody involved cares that much about, and closes the window.
  691.  
  692. Actually if that happened I wouldn't know, so I'm just gonna enjoy that image.
  693. Show less
  694.  
  695. Olman Feelyus4 Jul 2014+2
  696. 3
  697. 2
  698.  
  699.  
  700. I do give a shit, because your extremism is undermining actual efforts to improve inclusivity and diversity in the hobby.  And aligning yourself with cynical, manipulative witch-hunters like Ettin  makes a lot of moderate people lose trust in what you are doing.
  701.  
  702. From my perspective, you (collective you) are just as bad as Pundit and Zak, just the flip side of the coin, but responsible for just as much strife and conflict in the hobby and doing very little to actually improve things.
  703.  
  704. Also, you reinforrce the asshole behaviour of Zak and Pundit.  They thirst for the confirmation of your rage.  At least be strategic about it like Fred. 
  705. Show less
  706.  
  707. Paul Ettin4 Jul 2014+1
  708. 2
  709. 1
  710.  
  711.  
  712. My greatest regret has been never finding solid evidence that Zak was hexing his enemies behind the GM screen...
  713.  
  714. Rogue Black4 Jul 2014+1
  715. 2
  716. 1
  717.  
  718.  
  719. Doesn't Paul's comments strike anyone as dismissive and belittling of the very real experiences people have had?
  720.  
  721. Andri Erlingsson4 Jul 2014+1
  722. 2
  723. 1
  724.  
  725.  
  726. +Olman Feelyus the truth is not in the middle between "people who harass..."
  727.  
  728. Whoah, deja vu.
  729.  
  730. Paul Ettin5 Jul 2014
  731.  
  732.  
  733.  
  734.  
  735. I'm not obligated to give a shit about what walkerp thinks though.
  736.  
  737. David Hill5 Jul 2014+9
  738. 10
  739. 9
  740.  
  741.  
  742. My extremism? Because I'm pissed that someone that stalks and harasses my loved ones is given legitimacy by this?
  743.  
  744. Fuck that.
  745.  
  746. I sorely hope you or your loved ones never have to go through this shit.
  747.  
  748. I hope nobody anonymously sends photos of your apartment at night. I hope nobody sends you the name of your daughter's first grade teacher along with rape threats.
  749.  
  750. You want to equate my hatred for that shit and my unwillingness to smile and fucking nod while abusers and harassers are embraced as authorities with actually being a party to that shit? Seriously?
  751.  
  752. We're done here, Fallacy of the Middle Man. 
  753. Show less
  754.  
  755. Olman Feelyus5 Jul 2014
  756.  
  757.  
  758.  
  759.  
  760. Well that sounds horrible and I'm sorry you have to suffer through that.
  761.  
  762. Are Zak and Pundit responsible for that?  Because that's what it sounds like you are saying (and what Ettin is clearly encouraging).
  763.  
  764. Andri Erlingsson5 Jul 2014+1
  765. 2
  766. 1
  767.  
  768.  
  769. Yes. Yes he is, absolutely, in Zak's case. The Pundit's community is no better.
  770.  
  771. Paul Ettin5 Jul 2014+1
  772. 2
  773. 1
  774.  
  775.  
  776. +David Hill If you ever feel I am somehow encouraging people to send you threatening messages instead of calling out the people who encourage that shit, feel free to punch me in the face. I'll be at PAX Aus 2014, we can probably work something out.
  777.  
  778. David Hill5 Jul 2014+1
  779. 2
  780. 1
  781.  
  782.  
  783. Zak's community, yes. It was brought to his attention multiple times. He wears it as a badge of honor. He loves being responsible for that shit, and laughs it off with anecdotes about how he gets worse because he's in porn. 
  784.  
  785. Olman Feelyus5 Jul 2014
  786.  
  787.  
  788.  
  789.  
  790. I understand how feeling powerless rage pushes one to look for targets but those two are the wrong targets.  Not helping improve the overall situation in the hobby.
  791.  
  792. We do need effective systems and laws though to hunt down criminal stalkers and punish them.  That shit is fucked up.
  793. Show less
  794.  
  795. David Hill5 Jul 2014+5
  796. 6
  797. 5
  798.  
  799.  
  800. I don't know as much about Pundit's jolly fanclub. But I find the raw hate he tosses around at innocent people abhorrent. He makes his name hurting people. If you feel that's exactly what I do, I feel you misunderstand me.
  801.  
  802. I've had numerous people tell me that if it weren't for vocal people like me, they would feel uncomfortable even trying to be part of the community, because of people like these. They are literally silencing innocent people, making them feel hurt and in many cases afraid. I don't want anyone silenced; I feel they can say what they want, but that degree of aggression toward innocent people should be marginalized, not legitimized. 
  803. Show less
  804.  
  805. David Hill5 Jul 2014+6
  806. 7
  807. 6
  808.  
  809.  
  810. They choose to live with apes. They choose to rile their base. They choose to paint targets on good people. I don't particularly care if you think they're the right targets; to my personal ethics and beliefs, their behavior is unacceptable.
  811.  
  812. I've given police reports. I've even hired investigators in a couple of cases. But even in the best case scenario, that stops a symptom. So long as there are prominent, respected voices attacking oppressed groups, there will always be sheep ready and armed to attack. These hateful attitudes leading cults of personality are the disease.
  813.  
  814. I'm going to say that painting targets on good people and laughing off the consequences is wrong. If you think I should smile, nod, and embrace them, we're never going to see eye to eye. I'd rather embrace the myriad of people they're terrorizing away.
  815. Show less
  816.  
  817. Olman Feelyus5 Jul 2014
  818.  
  819.  
  820.  
  821.  
  822. Pundit's whole marketing scheme is about making up fake enemies and then railing against them.  There are really only a tiny few people even over on therpgsite that buy into his shtick.  Getting all outraged about it allows him to fill up his fake enemy bucket and then do his childish crowing about how right he was.
  823.  
  824. Feeling silenced or oppressed by the pundit is like feeling oppressed by Sarah Palin.  It's really not worth your time.
  825. Show less
  826.  
  827. David Hill5 Jul 2014+3
  828. 4
  829. 3
  830.  
  831.  
  832. I don't feel silenced or oppressed by him. Others do. I'm not willing to tell a hurt or scared person that their feelings are invalid. I'm certainly not willing to tell them to just ignore harassment which takes time and energy from their life.
  833.  
  834. I don't feel that way. But I know others do, and unless you deal with this shit regularly, it's easy to just ignore it. Despite my not feeling particularly silenced, the voices that do feel silenced, in my opinion, are more valuable to the community than his. 
  835. Read more
  836.  
  837. Michael Pruitt5 Jul 2014
  838.  
  839.  
  840.  
  841.  
  842. Well, this is all pretty disappointing. :/
  843.  
  844. David Hill5 Jul 2014
  845.  
  846.  
  847.  
  848.  
  849. And re: Sarah Palin, I wouldn't want Wizards hiring her as a consultant, either. The level of discourse she brings to he table is very low, and any value she has is counterbalanced by the loss of voices she's made a career of marginalizing.
  850.  
  851. ASH LAW5 Jul 2014+2
  852. 3
  853. 2
  854.  
  855.  
  856. Blocking Olman now...
  857.  
  858. Jack Stephenson-Carr5 Jul 2014+2
  859. 3
  860. 2
  861.  
  862.  
  863. Thank you +David Hill for being a voice for the oppressed. I find what the pundit and zak s do abhorrent, and people such as yourself give me hope for the hobby
  864.  
  865. D.H. Cross5 Jul 2014+2
  866. 3
  867. 2
  868.  
  869.  
  870. All news to me. Jeez.. I wasn't aware Zak was anything other than a blogger using porn star players as a means to gain a wider audience. Why consult with him? Monte Cook I understand. The others? Never heard of them.
  871.  
  872. Olman Feelyus5 Jul 2014+1
  873. 2
  874. 1
  875.  
  876.  
  877. Pundit's own words on the issue, for what they are worth:
  878.  
  879. http://therpgpundit.blogspot.ca/2014/07/if-youre-going-to-hate-me-at-least-do.html
  880.  
  881. Mike Mearls5 Jul 2014+30
  882. 1
  883. 0
  884.  
  885.  
  886. Hey all - there are like four accounts with my name stuck to them, so referring to my name doesn't ping me.
  887.  
  888. Anyway: it's very late and I am a feeling a bit sick, so I will keep this brief.
  889.  
  890. 1. If anyone has any direct evidence of racism or sexism or any other form of discrimination on the part of people attached to D&D, please drop a line to me. Email is mike.mearls@wizards.com
  891.  
  892. 2. Consultants on the project were hired to tear the game apart and pull no punches, so being brutal was basically a job requirement.
  893.  
  894. 3. How we present race and gender in the game had nothing to do with anyone beyond me, Jeremy Crawford, and our art director, Kate Irwin. I have read up on issues of race, gender, and inclusivity in gaming and have done everything I can to address them. Will it be perfect? No. But I pay attention to this stuff because it's important. The consultants had no role in that department.
  895.  
  896. 
  897. Show less
  898.  
  899. Mark CarrollYesterday 07:51
  900.  
  901.  
  902.  
  903.  
  904. Mike, sent you some things. Hopefully they'll help clear this up.
  905.  
  906. Jussi Marttila06:00+4
  907. 5
  908. 4
  909.  
  910.  
  911. For me, the choice to not buy anything by Wizards was pretty easy. There's a whole bunch of games I haven't bought that I'd like to buy, a bunch in my shelf I haven't yet gotten around to play, so why would I give my money to a company that decides to employ people such as Zak Smith and John Tarnowski?
  912.  
  913. David Hill10:33+7
  914. 8
  915. 7
  916.  
  917.  
  918. Well. There's a contact point.
  919.  
  920. If anyone's interested in providing laundry lists, Mike's provided an email address. I'm tired of qualifying my choices over and over, and I'm not going to ask people I care about to revisit attacks in order to provide that ONE PIECE of evidence that'll somehow break the camel's back.
  921.  
  922. Of course anonymous threats aren't going to be evidence enough. Of course they didn't come from the people in question. But that's kind of the point, isn't it? That's how these people work. It's why Glenn Beck can't be brought up on charges after his fans have attacked people.
  923.  
  924. I get that they weren't consulted about diversity issues. I don't think anyone ever said they were. But the fact is, since I've heard numerous women and LGBT people say that they're avoiding this because of their involvement, it is a diversity issue.
  925.  
  926. Being all-inclusive only goes so far, when some of the included make a point of attacking, bullying, and silencing people.
  927.  
  928. I find the two toxic. If you can't realize why I find them toxic, then either you didn't look into them at all (and why did you hire them if you didn't?) or we're not going to see eye to eye on what constitutes a toxic person.
  929.  
  930. Since I've posted this, I've gotten numerous private notes thanking me. Almost every one of these notes said that the comment was private, because they're afraid of being attacked for supporting my choice. That speaks volumes to me.
  931.  
  932. I'm done. Keep comments coming if you'd like. I'm not going to shut it down. But I'm fucking exhausted. 
  933. Read more (28 lines)
  934.  
  935. Nate McD10:51
  936.  
  937.  
  938.  
  939.  
  940. +Mark Carroll Post it for everybody to see.
  941.  
  942. Mark Carroll11:42
  943.  
  944.  
  945.  
  946.  
  947. I've already contacted Mike directly, and asked him to reach out privately
  948. to David, Filamena, and several others on this. Sunlight is being shone,
  949. folks. My only dogs in this are a) I hate seeing good people get hurt and
  950. b) I absolutely despise the sort of scam fueled by the behavior in
  951. question. It's petty and it's contemptable.
  952.  
  953. Darren MacLennan12:11+3
  954. 4
  955. 3
  956.  
  957.  
  958. For what it's worth, I too find RPGPundit utterly contemptible. I've also sent an e-mail to Mearls expressing my disappointment with his decision to use Pundit as a consultant.
  959.  
  960. Marcus Burggraf15:03+3
  961. 4
  962. 3
  963.  
  964.  
  965. Nice Echo chamber in here. There are several facts very much misrepresented here, especially Ettin spews untruth. As far as I am aware the only list Zak ever wrote was one of people who spread a, as it turned out, false accusation against Desborough that he had threatened to rape someone. As the issue with Filamena seems to have sprung from the maxim issue discussions. You claim to have threats against you, but are unwilling to prove it to a wider audience. Because they are probably not by Zak but some irate Internet idiot. Would you want to be accountable for everything your followers do? Zak never organised a "Hit Squad" or asked anyone to act on his behalf.
  966.  
  967. At the moment the only ones I see getting out of line and spreading falsehoods are people who do not like Zak, not the other way around. I would really like to see the toxins he spews. But I some don't. And I am usually in the camp that dislikes oversexualized images and am very much for diversity and inclusion. And I am not seeing Zak being determined to oppose this he is very opinionated against any form of censorship and that is a good thing in my mind. He can be obnoxious in the way he discusses but for me that had always been case of him wanting to get to the core of any issue. He is brash though and uses very direct language, something that makes me uncomfortable too. But that is all I see, there is no evidence of the alleged LGBT hate list as well as any claim that Zak is egging on his followers to do bad stuff to people he disagrees with. All I see is people making unsubstantiated claims concerning his motives and MO. And so far you all are the ones calling for boycott of something Zak had very little to do with. Zak is a very opinionated part of the OSR and not asking him would have been an oversight. Because he is also a creator of awesome things, and if you dismiss stuff like Vornheim as unimportant you have a different perspective on dnd then I do.
  968.  
  969. This is not meant as an attack or anything, just a plea from a bystander that follows various people and is confused why one of them suddenly is the devil and others loosing it apparently. I love this hobby and this negativity spread around because of 2 names is trying to hurt one of the best things that has happened to the hobby in a while (free basic DnD with very good rules) and I just do not get it. 
  970. Show less
  971.  
  972. Nate Lumpkin15:06
  973.  
  974.  
  975.  
  976.  
  977. Well said +Marcus Burggraf.
  978.  
  979. Paul Ettin15:15+2
  980. 3
  981. 2
  982.  
  983.  
  984. "You might say you're not up for revisiting and posting all the harassment and threats you've gotten every time someone wants to dissect your claims, but I bet the real reason is because you can't prove they were personally sent by him and not by someone else, which would absolve him of everything. Personally calling for a witch hunt doesn't count as asking anyone to act on his behalf!"
  985.  
  986. —A Fuckwit
  987. Show less
  988.  
  989. David Hill15:31+1
  990. 2
  991. 1
  992.  
  993.  
  994. "LGBT hate list?"
  995.  
  996. I'm pretty sure you're misrepresenting my statements.
  997.  
  998. Also, the list you're talking about has nothing to do with spreading anything. It was people that gave plus ones to one post by Ben Lehman. That's not spreading. Nor is it even glowing endorsement or support.
  999.  
  1000. I do know a number of people un-plussed it after they received death threats within one or two days of that list going live.
  1001. Show less
  1002.  
  1003. Nate Lumpkin15:31+1
  1004. 2
  1005. 1
  1006.  
  1007.  
  1008. +Paul Ettin (and to anybody else reading) There was no witch hunt and no call for a witch hunt. There were no secret witches to hunt out - the people who backed that post did so publicly, presumably with the full awareness that they were backing it publicly, otherwise why bother? And there was no call for harassment, but instead a call to ignore the backers of that post unless they apologized, or to engage them in conversation about their beliefs. Which you and I successfully did.
  1009.  
  1010. Why are you implying Zak called for a witch hunt and harassment when neither of those things happened?
  1011. Show less
  1012.  
  1013. David Hill15:34+1
  1014. 2
  1015. 1
  1016.  
  1017.  
  1018. Also? If you feel this thread is an echo chamber, you really have a different definition of the term than I have. 
  1019.  
  1020. Paul Ettin15:35+1
  1021. 2
  1022. 1
  1023.  
  1024.  
  1025. He literally posted "Now Jon didn't name names, because he "doesn't want a witchhunt". Which is respectable. But I'm not Jon".
  1026.  
  1027. [edited this bit out because it was dumb]
  1028.  
  1029. Paul Ettin15:42+1
  1030. 2
  1031. 1
  1032.  
  1033.  
  1034. Also:
  1035.  
  1036. "I love this hobby and this negativity spread around because of 2 names is trying to hurt one of the best things that has happened to the hobby in a while (free basic DnD with very good rules)"
  1037.  
  1038. Even if you disagree with me, geez man, focus on people over games. Dungeons & Dragons will be fine regardless of internet slapfights over the credits page.
  1039. Show less
  1040.  
  1041. T. Amber Bezpalko15:43+2
  1042. 3
  1043. 2
  1044.  
  1045.  
  1046. Oh, I'm so very sorry that you love this hobby so much that you think it's okay for other people to feel unsafe within it.
  1047.  
  1048. Wait. No. Not sorry, what's the word? Disgusted? Disgusted.
  1049.  
  1050. I'm so very disgusted that you love this hobby so much that you think it's okay for other people to feel unsafe within it.
  1051. Read more
  1052.  
  1053. Nate Lumpkin15:44
  1054.  
  1055.  
  1056.  
  1057.  
  1058. That's still not Zak calling people to hunt these people down. I've said it so many times but it bears repeating.
  1059.  
  1060. "If people did harass other people over that list I blame the people doing the actual harassment, not Zak. What Zak did was hold people accountable for their actions - literally asking them to make an account of themselves - and that is a good thing, especially when someone did something wrong. Which they did."
  1061. 
  1062. Show less
  1063.  
  1064. Paul Ettin15:47+2
  1065. 3
  1066. 2
  1067.  
  1068.  
  1069. Being specific about how some guy doesn't want a witch hunt and following it up with "...but I'm not that guy!" is absolutely calling for a witch hunt. I mean, what's your answer, that it's a coincidence that Zak happened to specify that Jon didn't want a witch hunt? Because that's getting into some pretty silly I'm-not-touching-you territory.
  1070.  
  1071. David Hill15:52+3
  1072. 4
  1073. 3
  1074.  
  1075.  
  1076. It turns out, I love this hobby. I love it a fuckton. It is literally my career as well as my hobby. I've published literally over one million words professionally in this hobby.  I love it enough that I want all my friends to feel welcome in it, and not threatened and shouted down for speaking their minds.
  1077.  
  1078. If I'm at a convention, and people say things approaching what Zak's said to people that made the mistake of disagreeing with him, I'd report him. If he was at my table, the best treatment he could expect is being asked to leave. If I was at a panel with 100 people, and 20 walked out because one guy shouted them down, I would not herald him as some sort of king of free speech.
  1079.  
  1080. From where I stand, the quote Paul posted is, in fact, Zak calling for a witch hunt. You don't have to agree with my opinion there. But my opinion is, that statement is "that guy doesn't want a witch hunt, but I'm not that guy" implies strongly "I want a witch hunt."
  1081.  
  1082. Which, by no small coincidence, was immediately followed by friends and loved ones being threatened in very disturbing ways. 
  1083. Show less
  1084.  
  1085. Nate Lumpkin15:53
  1086.  
  1087.  
  1088.  
  1089.  
  1090. Honestly, I think the I'm-not-touching-you territory is significant here, considering how literal Zak is with his words. But my prior point stands: if the contents of a "witch hunt" are "don't trust this person in ethical debates and challenge them on their beliefs" then I'm not opposed to it. Harassment and death threats are fucked up and wrong obviously, but Zak never endorsed those. If he did I'd call him out - but he hasn't, so I won't.
  1091. Show less
  1092.  
  1093. Stephen King15:57+3
  1094. 4
  1095. 3
  1096.  
  1097.  
  1098. You guys do realize that this 'proof' that Desborough didn't threaten anyone with rape is not that, tight? It was proof that a person was not willing to give evidence to a strange man online who then went on to make the claim that it meant it was a groundless claim.
  1099.  
  1100. That's not even going into the silliness of bending over backwards to read that comment from Zak as anything but a call to arms. It's pretty obvious what the implications there were.
  1101. Show less
  1102.  
  1103. Paul Ettin15:58+1
  1104. 2
  1105. 1
  1106.  
  1107.  
  1108. My problem with that is it assumes a) Zak has more trouble grasping the meaning of words than I give him credit for and b) that someone who only says "literal" things wouldn't have just said "Jon doesn't want to name names, but I'm not Jon" instead of "Jon doesn't want to name names because he doesn't want a witch hunt, but I'm not Jon".
  1109.  
  1110. Stephen King15:59+3
  1111. 4
  1112. 3
  1113.  
  1114.  
  1115. Seriously. Zak's toxic, but he's not goddamn stupid.
  1116.  
  1117. Andri Erlingsson16:01+2
  1118. 3
  1119. 2
  1120.  
  1121.  
  1122. The "proof" behind that list was meaningless, but that stopped no one from claiming it as perfect grounds for assaulting people online.
  1123.  
  1124. No proof to any contrary position, on the other hand, will ever be enough.
  1125.  
  1126. David Hill16:01+3
  1127. 4
  1128. 3
  1129.  
  1130.  
  1131. Yeah. What +Stephen King said.
  1132.  
  1133. I just shared the particular comment with five people, sight unseen. Non-gamers. Completely unaware of the situation. I simply messaged them and asked, "What does this say to you?"
  1134.  
  1135. All five gave me a variation of, "He wants a witch hunt." 
  1136. Show less
  1137.  
  1138. Nate Lumpkin16:06
  1139.  
  1140.  
  1141.  
  1142.  
  1143. But once again - what is the point of calling for a "witch hunt" when the actual meaning is "don't trust these people or alternatively engage them in conversation about their beliefs?" Zak is not responsible for people sending death threats. The people sending death threats are responsible. He's responsible for holding people accountable in a specific way for the specific obviously wrong action which they publicly did.
  1144. Show less
  1145.  
  1146. T. Amber Bezpalko16:06+1
  1147. 2
  1148. 1
  1149.  
  1150.  
  1151. Yeah, there's no reading of that which doesn't come off that way. There's not even plausible deniability there.
  1152.  
  1153. Paul Ettin16:07
  1154.  
  1155.  
  1156.  
  1157.  
  1158. Why are you asking me what the point of calling for a witch hunt is? Go ask Zak, man!
  1159.  
  1160. Nate Lumpkin16:11
  1161.  
  1162.  
  1163.  
  1164.  
  1165. Zak's explained his motivations over and over again and I'm satisfied I understand them. It's yours that I'm still not satisfied I understand, for the reasons I've been repeating. That's why I'm here.
  1166.  
  1167. Paul Ettin16:12+2
  1168. 3
  1169. 2
  1170.  
  1171.  
  1172. +Stephen King Okay, let me touch on this just to clear some things up:
  1173.  
  1174. To my knowledge, Desborough has never sent anyone a rape threat. Like I didn't exactly scrutinize +John Stavropoulos' detective work or anything but I'm willing to put that out there. Now, I know that fans of his have sent rape threats to people who criticise him, he's dismissed them as "not real threats" then turned around and posted about how he's received threats and they totally devastated him, and he's also made dumb RPG products that make jokes about women getting raped and claimed "it's totally satire!", so I still think he's a shithead, but not one that has threatened women anywhere obviously public, so I am willing to say whoever made that post is probably mistaken.
  1175.  
  1176. Also, a ton of people +1d that post after Zak started making a big deal about it, because for some mysterious reason people read his post as a silent harassment and wanted to either protest that or fuck with him. I mean, one of them was me! There is literally a public post in my feed to that effect.
  1177.  
  1178. I'm just going to go ahead and time how long it takes for someone to make a post about how I secretly actually +1d a six-month-old Google+ post to rob a shithead of his job by spreading lies and words don't mean things.
  1179. Show less
  1180.  
  1181. Stephen King16:15+3
  1182. 4
  1183. 3
  1184.  
  1185.  
  1186. People here have also explained over, and over, and over, and over, and over....
  1187.  
  1188. David Hill16:22+1
  1189. 2
  1190. 1
  1191.  
  1192.  
  1193. Yeah. It's been explained by a lot of people. It appears some of them will comprehend it, some will not.
  1194.  
  1195. There's no changing it. Nobody's going to mysteriously look at your explanations and say, "Oh, shit. That's terrible behavior. That's really toxic, and I understand why you're upset." If they were going to, they already have, or will come to that conclusion on their own.
  1196.  
  1197. At this point, it's just wasting time. 
  1198. Show less
  1199.  
  1200. Nate Lumpkin16:24
  1201.  
  1202.  
  1203.  
  1204.  
  1205. +Stephen King And they don't make sense to me at all, because no one's been able to address my points in a way that's satisfying. So as long as people say Zak used that post as a call for harassment, I'll come around and remind them that never happened.
  1206.  
  1207. David Hill16:26+1
  1208. 2
  1209. 1
  1210.  
  1211.  
  1212. +Nate Lumpkin We disagree. I absolutely feel that was a call for harassment, and to check myself, I called on strangers to verify. I get that you think otherwise. I'm not going to sit here and listen to "yes it is, no it isn't" in my notifications. 
  1213.  
  1214. Nate McD16:27
  1215.  
  1216.  
  1217.  
  1218.  
  1219. The action that you describe when taken by somebody you don't like against you as a witch-hunt is the same social mechanism that is going on here, subtly different, but the same. It's a public calling-out of somebody who one does not like, with the hoped for ramification of social consensus that the enemy is bad, and you are good.
  1220.  
  1221. When we see the enemy engage in such name-shaming and calls for boycotts, denouncements, and demands of action, people tend to call it a witch-hunt, and when it is being done by one's self or allies, we see it as positive social activism and good community citizenship, marking hazards as we go.
  1222. Read more
  1223.  
  1224. Stephen King16:29+1
  1225. 2
  1226. 1
  1227.  
  1228.  
  1229. Witch hunt is actually the term that was used in the original post.
  1230.  
  1231. Curt Thompson16:31+3
  1232. 4
  1233. 3
  1234.  
  1235.  
  1236. Also, this word 'boycott' keeps getting thrown around in a pretty silly way. A boycott is a pretty specific thing.
  1237.  
  1238. Saying 'I'm not going to buy this product' is not organizing a boycott. Even saying it publicly isn't a boycott, regardless of why you aren't buying said product.
  1239. Show less
  1240.  
  1241. Soren Roberts16:37+4
  1242. 5
  1243. 4
  1244.  
  1245.  
  1246. It also carries varying moral weight depending on the speaker. David is involved in the hobby and works in the industry and so it's understandable why people would care what he buys and plays. Me? If I say I'm not going to buy something that I don't want, wouldn't play, and loudly declaim more than incidental, paid involvement with as a concept? Yawnsburg.
  1247.  
  1248. But neither of those is a boycott.
  1249. Read more
  1250.  
  1251. David Hill16:38+3
  1252. 4
  1253. 3
  1254.  
  1255.  
  1256. They are not the same thing.
  1257.  
  1258. I am not buying a $20 book, because his past behavior has resulted in people threatening my family.
  1259.  
  1260. My fans are not threatening him and his family. If they were, I'd do whatever I could to call them out and to stop them. But then again, I don't cultivate many fans of the type that would send threats in my name.
  1261.  
  1262. My "witch hunt" ends in Wizards of the Coast not making $20, after whatever distributor and retailer cuts get taken out. So, like $4. His "not a witch hunt" ends in threats made against my family members, including my children.
  1263.  
  1264. I was going to purchase 5e. I've owned every previous edition, and hundreds of assorted books. I would like Wizards to know why. I will not own further such books. Simple as that.
  1265.  
  1266. If you don't get how those two things are not the same, I'm really, really sorry. 
  1267. Read more (17 lines)
  1268.  
  1269. Andri Erlingsson16:39+4
  1270. 5
  1271. 4
  1272.  
  1273.  
  1274. D&D is not entitled to be bought. Getting all freaked out and personally insulted because someone doesn't buy a game is hilarious. Please let us see more of this.
  1275.  
  1276. Nate McD16:43
  1277.  
  1278.  
  1279.  
  1280.  
  1281. Pedantry aside, both sides are engaging in the same behavior dressed up with self-righteousness and assorted attitudes.
  1282.  
  1283. David Hill16:44+2
  1284. 3
  1285. 2
  1286.  
  1287.  
  1288. +Andri Erlingsson I find it more than a little funny. I wanted to start calling people that insist on writing lengthly, scathing diatribes about my buying choices "the outrage brigade" but I think that one's been taken. 
  1289.  
  1290. Paul Ettin16:48+4
  1291. 5
  1292. 4
  1293.  
  1294.  
  1295. I think "the outrage brigade" is reserved for people who want to know if Far West is out yet.
  1296.  
  1297. Curt Thompson16:48
  1298.  
  1299.  
  1300.  
  1301.  
  1302. Ow. I felt that one all the way over here.
  1303.  
  1304. David Hill17:10+1
  1305. 2
  1306. 1
  1307.  
  1308.  
  1309. +Nate McD Really REALLY sorry. 
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