cloudy: I very much doubt its gonna be banned in the long run
cloudy: but should be interesting to see
Carlotso: Do you think there are fair grounds for banning it?
Carlotso: Or you just curious?
cloudy: I only think the ban will benefit lower divisions
Carlotso: Yeah?
Carlotso: I personally think it'll help all round.
cloudy: Like snipers do either a tonne of work or none at all in those divs
cloudy: smart snipers tend to just sit with the combo anyway
cloudy: the razorback just acts as a lifeline
cloudy: that isnt always necesarry but nice to have
cloudy: I'll personally end up just using the cosy camper
Carlotso: Thing is though, I've played with many teams where a sniper is super carrying
Carlotso: Say, Viaduct
Carlotso: If that sniper is playing rock tanking heals
Carlotso: And my sniper can't kill him, well, we're fucked
Carlotso: Because I can't kill him. He's literally stand there, tank an amby headshot, but keep aiming because he knows he won't die
Carlotso: *He'll
Carlotso: No razorback will atleast guarantee that with a good decloak, I can die for a Sniper pick
Carlotso: Obviously it won't make a change in all situations
Carlotso: But I think overall it will give the Spy a bit more purpose
Carlotso: Because the Sniper pick is so important
cloudy: Like in that situation the sniper is far forward enough to coordinate spam on to to drive him away, atleast for a bit
cloudy: thats when the spy could come in
cloudy: I agree it's a super strong thing
Carlotso: But what does the Sniper give up?
cloudy: but i dont think it justifies a ban
Carlotso: In order to have that protection from backstabs?
Carlotso: Jarate and SMG? They are good yeah, but they aren't needed for him to do his job
Carlotso: It's been so long since I've seen a team utilise Jarate
Carlotso: Or I've seen a sniper try to SMG me
cloudy: Yes I think jarate is a waste of time
cloudy: SMG can be viable but it takes some getting used to
cloudy: Cozy camper is definitely the way forward
cloudy: It's free benefit, and it requires no thought to use
Carlotso: That's what I mean.
Carlotso: Do you not think something like that is objectively better?
Carlotso: Camper and Razorback.
Carlotso: Shouldn't the goal be to introduce variety in loadouts?
cloudy: Sniper probably has the least variety in loadouts even on a pub level
cloudy: I dont think the comp community needs to add variety to it by banning one of the few actually good secondaries the class has
cloudy: the variety wouldnt change gameplay a whole lot, but that's what im interested to see really
cloudy: i'm planning on trying almost all of the secondaries in this cup thingy
Carlotso: So you think they should buff the other secondaries instead of removing razorback?
Carlotso: Or perhaps just nerf razorback
cloudy: I think the nerf is the obvious choice if people really want it gone
cloudy: theres no guarantee of that ever happening of course
cloudy: but something like limiting the overheal to 150hp sounds sensible
cloudy: for competitive atleast
Carlotso: That would be great yeah.
cloudy: that would definitely kill the weapon off though
Carlotso: Probably
cloudy: enemy sniper is a far greater threat than enemy spy
cloudy: especially in a meta where the sniper is essentially a combo class
Carlotso: The sniper is the meta.
Carlotso: And that's my overall issue really. We've just come to accept that Sniper is so important.
Carlotso: The Spy class was originally designed to be his hard counter
Carlotso: Which is why I take issue with Razorback
Carlotso: Honestly in general, I don't think classes should have weapons designed for their counters
cloudy: well the spy has the dead ringer and the spycicle
Carlotso: Dead Ringer is fine right now, and a good scout will absolutely shit on them
Carlotso: Spycicle could use a little tune down as it stands
Carlotso: Agreed.
cloudy: these things both counter pyro really hard atm
cloudy: the spy's 'hard counter'
Carlotso: I wouldn't bring Pyro into the equation tbh
Carlotso: It's a broken class as it stands
Carlotso: Because not even Valve know what they want to do with him
Carlotso: But yeah I agree, Spycicle shouldn't have ever been introduced
Carlotso: It's stupid
Carlotso: But you forget that DR used to not be a hard counter. It used to be the worst thing to run against a pyro
Carlotso: I think the only maybe questionable thing about the new DR is the fire immunity, but maybe even that's fine.
Carlotso: If anything, Gunspying with Amby in general is the harder counter.
cloudy: gunspying is the future
cloudy: done right razorback is no where near as big of a problem
Carlotso: If the sniper isn't being tanked to 185 with his combo all the team, sure.
Carlotso: *time
cloudy: its never a 1 man fight in that situation though
Carlotso: But I still think that gunspying isn't always objectively better
Carlotso: Stabs sometimes are the easier thing, but people are quick to forget that.
Carlotso: If it was a 1 man fight, the Spy would win most of the time
Carlotso: Which in that scenario, Razorback isn't an issue
cloudy: I mean that you have team mates
cloudy: a spy headshotting a sniper is really under appreciated
cloudy: teams get a lot done with it
cloudy: having a spy like toast on our team who can just shred half of a snipers health from across the map makes life so much easier for the rest of us
Carlotso: That is something that can happen, Razorback or not.
cloudy: yes which justifies it not needing a ban
Carlotso: I don't think so.
cloudy: i mean you can do it with revolver too if you position yourself correctly
Carlotso: I don't think that's the point. That counterplay exists Razorback or not. As well as going for the stab.
Carlotso: I think having the option is healthy.
Carlotso: "Do I risk it and go for the sniper stab pick? Or can I afford to just pressure him with an amby headshot?"
Carlotso: Instead of just removing one option altogether.
Carlotso: It would be nice to actually have Snipers participate in the spychecking too.
cloudy: there are 9 players on a team though
cloudy: All of them being designed to look for spies is nonsense
cloudy: sniper has that option if its really necesarry anyway
Carlotso: None of them are designed to look for spies
Carlotso: Just to be aware.
Carlotso: Snipers often remove themselves from the spy threat altogether, because they are safer with a razorback and their combo
Carlotso: I'm not saying that a Spy can't do anything against them, but you can't tell me a Sniper isn't objectively safer with a razorback than without
cloudy: Not in all situations though obviously
Carlotso: "Why should a Sniper be able to block a backstab?" Is the question here, and for the life of me I cannot figure out an answer.
cloudy: Because its so useless in a 1v1
cloudy: is the only real reason
Carlotso: Oh don't act like all sniper mains don't want to go for quickscopes
Carlotso: Everyone does :D
cloudy: well yeah but it adds a dynamic into the game for spies ^^
Carlotso: The dynamic of spamming space bar and crouch after the first shot on him, yes!
cloudy: sniper wasnt intended to be as good as it currently is i think
cloudy: not sure devs realised quite how powerful it could be done right