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IRC FreeNode #litecoin-dev log - Luke-Jr

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Apr 28th, 2013
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  1. [11:43] <Luke-Jr> coblee: poke
  2. 02[11:44] * jeamy (~jeamy@80-110-44-54.static.surfer.at) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3. 06[11:45] * OneMiner popcorn
  4. [11:47] <@coblee> Luke-Jr: what's up?
  5. [11:48] <Luke-Jr> coblee: is there any chance you would be willing to shutdown litecoin, or request mtgox to not trade it, for the sake of Bitcoin?
  6. [11:48] <Luke-Jr> (pending further discussion of course)
  7. [11:48] <@coblee> Luke-Jr: you do know that no one (not even me) can shutdown a decentralized currency, right?
  8. [11:49] <iddo> Luke-Jr: it's good to test social behavior with litecoin, suppose for example that litecoin and all other alcoins didn't exist, and you
  9.  
  10. invested in bitcoin, you wouldn't know what will happen to your invest when suddenly some new alt coin like litecoin would appear
  11. [11:49] <Luke-Jr> coblee: yes and no
  12. 02[11:50] * C0deMaver1ck (~C0deMaver@unaffiliated/beau/x-8351432) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  13. [11:50] <Luke-Jr> iddo: the threat isn't litecoin per se, as much as it is MtGox trading litecoin
  14. [11:50] <iddo> coblee: maybe Luke has this in mind:
  15.  
  16. http://www.reddit.com/r/litecoin/comments/1bf2l6/ask_for_litecoin_on_mtgox_and_on_every_other_btc/c96abou
  17. [11:50] <@coblee> and if somehow litecoin does die, some other alt coin will take its place
  18. [11:50] <@coblee> you should talk to MagicalTux instead then
  19. [11:50] <Luke-Jr> coblee: MagicalTux is not discussing it
  20. 03[11:50] * C0deMaver1ck (~C0deMaver@gravypod.lieks.the.mudkipz.ws) has joined #litecoin-dev
  21. 02[11:50] * C0deMaver1ck (~C0deMaver@gravypod.lieks.the.mudkipz.ws) Quit (Changing host)
  22. 03[11:50] * C0deMaver1ck (~C0deMaver@unaffiliated/beau/x-8351432) has joined #litecoin-dev
  23. [11:50] <@coblee> i thought it was just an april fools joke
  24. [11:51] <iddo> i think that it's just the marketing dept. of mtgox
  25. [11:51] <iddo> not sure about april fools, two people there said that they got same reply
  26. [11:51] <Luke-Jr> coblee: currently my only option is to coordinate a FPGA-based 51% shutdown; I'm hoping to find some other more friendly
  27.  
  28. avenues
  29. [11:51] <[yAK]> https://data.mtgox.com/api/2/LTCUSD/money/ticker
  30. [11:51] <Graet> he is goxxing ltc, price has tripled since the gox announce - what will happen if he pulls support now? major crash....
  31. [11:51] <[yAK]> ^ ill just leave that there
  32. [11:51] <@coblee> might be a mtgox pump and dump. buy a ton of litecoins, announce rumor of supporting it, adnd dump
  33. [11:52] <iddo> seems more like standard marketing mumbojumbo
  34. [11:52] <Graet> Luke-Jr, how about not supporting scrypt in your miner - if you really want o do something....
  35. [11:52] <Luke-Jr> Graet: explain how that would change anything?
  36. [11:53] <iddo> Luke-Jr: do you have a rough estimate of the cost of that 51% FPGA attack?
  37. [11:53] <Graet> well seems strange you running around calling ltc a scam, aking coblee to take it down, but you support it in your miner....
  38. [11:53] <@coblee> Luke-Jr: I don't think you will be able to shut Litecoin down without losing a ton of money. And you'd only be able to do it
  39.  
  40. temporarily. look at bbqcoin, it's back too
  41. [11:54] <Luke-Jr> coblee: it doesn't need to be shutdown permanently, just enough to make MtGox reconsider
  42. [11:54] <Luke-Jr> iddo: existing Bitcoin FPGAs are sufficient, just a matter of the right bitstreams
  43. 02[11:54] * rdponticelli (~rdpontice@200-081-044-238.wireless.movistar.net.ar) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  44. [11:55] <iddo> Luke-Jr: how many FPGAs could you control?
  45. [11:55] <Luke-Jr> iddo: 10 FPGAs is enough to get 51%
  46. [11:55] <iddo> i doubt that figure
  47. [11:56] <Luke-Jr> admittedly, it's not proven in practice yet, but I doubt it would vary significantly
  48. [11:56] <@coblee> Luke-Jr: that's funny
  49. [11:56] <iddo> how much faster is a typical FPGA comapred to say 5970 ?
  50. [11:56] <Luke-Jr> coblee: ?
  51. [11:56] <@coblee> are you working on a script fpga?
  52. [11:56] <iddo> Luke-Jr: don't forget that a lot of GPU power is probably migrating to litecoin now, because of bitcoin ASICs
  53. [11:57] <Luke-Jr> coblee: I know multiple people who are thinking about it, and who are willing to take action to protect bitcoin
  54. [11:57] <@coblee> afaik, fpga are equivalent to gpus. maybe a bit more efticient
  55. [11:57] <iddo> there was forum post on scrypt FPGA, i don't remember if it was in final stage yet
  56. [11:57] <Graet> funny thing Luke-Jr - there are plenty of gpu miners that would jump over if you attacked....
  57. [11:58] <Graet> but really Luke-Jr stooping to altchain type wars isnt good fort bitcoin....
  58. [11:58] <@coblee> right now, you can make 5x the bitcoins mining litecoins: http://dustcoin.com/mining
  59. [11:58] <iddo> Luke-Jr: multiple people? i'm not aware of anyone else hostile to litecoin as much as you... who?
  60. [11:58] <@coblee> i'm sure a lot of gpu miners are switching over
  61. [11:58] <Luke-Jr> iddo: they'd prefer I take the backlash of course
  62. [11:59] <iddo> ok
  63. [11:59] <Luke-Jr> coblee: anyhow, back to the topic: are YOU willing to do anything to protect bitcoin?
  64. [11:59] <iddo> but you'll probably need 100s or 1000s of FPGAs, not 10
  65. [11:59] <iddo> Luke-Jr: i don't think that most people agree with your reasoning, the litecoin hurts bitcoin
  66. [12:00] <iddo> Luke-Jr: could you please explain why you disagree with the reason that i gave, about testing human behavior towards altcoins in
  67.  
  68. order to get real price discovery for the value of bitcoin?
  69. [12:01] <iddo> s/the litecoin/that litecoin
  70. [12:02] <@coblee> Luke-Jr: I don't think Litecoin hurts Bitcoin
  71. [12:02] <Luke-Jr> iddo: again, the problem isn't litecoin as much as it is MtGox trading litecoin
  72. [12:02] <@coblee> if it did, i don't think btc will be at $100 today
  73. [12:02] <Graet> well fix gox, dont break litecoin
  74. [12:02] <Luke-Jr> litecoin is clearly a pump and dump scheme, and when it fails, the fact that *the* Bitcoin exchange was promoting it is going to
  75.  
  76. reflect terrible on bitcoin
  77. [12:03] <Luke-Jr> people are going to just write off all cryptocurrency as pump & dump
  78. 03[12:03] * GordonG3kko (~GordonG3k@gateway/tor-sasl/gordong3kko) has joined #litecoin-dev
  79. [12:03] <iddo> ok now at least i understand your reasoning
  80. [12:03] <@coblee> Luke-Jr: no need to attack litecoin. quoting you: "the existing network effect of Bitcoin, combined with the lack of meaningful
  81.  
  82. differentiation between Litecoin and Bitcoin and Litecoin's adoption of a "designed to fail" proof-of-work algorithm; that Litecoin is bound to fail in the
  83.  
  84. end."
  85. [12:03] <Luke-Jr> even if you disagree with it being a scam, are you willing to stake Bitcoin on your opinion being right?
  86. [12:03] <@coblee> so in time, it will fail by itself. unless you don't believe your own lies on the wiki :)
  87. [12:04] <Luke-Jr> coblee: yes, it will. but with MtGox promoting it, it will kill ALL cryptocurrency at the same time
  88. [12:04] <iddo> you describe what possible scenario, you seem to be convinced that it's inevitable scenario, but most people (at least here) disagree
  89. [12:04] <iddo> s/what/one
  90. [12:04] <@coblee> Luke-Jr: i don't have a god complex such that I believe I have the power to kill or save bitcoin
  91. [12:04] <Luke-Jr> iddo: are you willing to bet Bitcoin's existence on that?
  92. [12:05] <Luke-Jr> s/existence/success/
  93. [12:05] <@coblee> mtgox promoting litecoin and litecoin failing will not kill bitcoin
  94. [12:05] <Luke-Jr> coblee: think about it, I gotta run to the airport and back
  95. [12:05] <iddo> Luke-Jr: i disagree with that dichotomy because i think that having litecoin is helpful for bitcoin
  96. [12:05] <@coblee> 1 exchange + 1 alt currency should not be able to kill bitcoin. if it does, then bitcoin had no chance from the start
  97. [12:05] <Luke-Jr> coblee: from the perspective of a normal person, who sees MtGox as the face of Bitcoin
  98. [12:06] <Graet> i agree with coblee , if bitcoin is that fragile its doomed to failure anyway
  99. [12:06] <@coblee> you're too short sighted. maybe it will hurt bitcoin a bit. like the mtgox hack caused it to drop to $2. but in the long term, bitcoin (and
  100.  
  101. litecoin) will survive
  102. [12:06] <@coblee> anyways, i got to go. we can talk later if you want
  103. [12:06] <Luke-Jr> coblee: you're being (unrealistically) optimistic there..
  104. [12:07] <Luke-Jr> how can you be 100% certain litecoin will survive?
  105. [12:07] <@coblee> who's 100% certain of anything?
  106. [12:07] <iddo> Luke-Jr: maybe you should think about it from another perspective: if bitcoin cannot survive the litecoin (supposed) crash, then bitcoin
  107.  
  108. is too weak to be allowed to exist?
  109. [12:07] <@coblee> iddo: exactly
  110. [12:07] <Luke-Jr> iddo: it is too weak today, yes
  111. [12:07] <Luke-Jr> bbiab
  112. [12:07] <@coblee> ok, later
  113. [12:08] <iddo> Luke-Jr: ok we can continue this discussion later:)
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