[08:30:28] * basedtc (KiwiIRC@Rizon-1D1F6861.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #burgersandfries

[08:42:13] <basedtc> is this the dark heart of the gamergates
<<nobody responds to him>>

[08:43:38] <basedtc> how do you join gamergate is there a hat i need to buy or something
<<still nobody responds to him>>

[08:49:24] <basedtc> so u guys like Milo
[08:49:46] <Moltar> basedtc he's a big guy
[08:49:56] <NcTn> i like him when he is helping us
[08:49:57] <NcTn> otherwise
[08:50:04] <NcTn> he has some pretty stupid opinions
[08:54:06] <Moltar> I think Milos best quality is his sense of humor, and it happens to be the thing that pisses off SJWs the most
[08:54:39] <Moltar> he wears his feelings and insecurities on his sleeve and that kind of honesty is admirable and shows good character imo
[08:55:01] <Moltar> but because of that brashness, he's prone to putting his foot in his mouth from time to time
[08:55:52] <Moltar> I don't hold it against him though, I'd rather he just be himself than sanitize himself to conform to what's considered 'good PR'
[08:56:05] <@Thidran> Agreed.
[08:56:23] <@Thidran> He's a hot blooded type.
[08:56:33] <@Thidran> But occasionally makes mistakes. Gotta be careful on that.
[08:56:59] <@Thidran> Key here though is he does learn from 'em.
[08:57:08] <Moltar> some people really go overboard with the self-censoring calls when he puts his foot in his mouth
[08:57:31] <@Thidran> Just the nature of the beast Moltar.
[08:57:47] <Moltar> the more we try to censor ourselves to be more PC, the more we become like the SJWs
[08:58:09] <@Thidran> The only area where I'd stop 'em was when he leaked the emails and left certain contact bits if I recall correctly.
[08:58:16] <@Thidran> It happens though.
[08:59:08] <Moltar> well yeah that was a genuine error though
[08:59:11] <basedtc> "the SJWs" lol
[08:59:12] <Moltar> not an opinion
[08:59:15] * @Thidran nods.

[08:59:17] <stealthsuit> We cannot be PC
[08:59:25] <stealthsuit> I'll say things now to break political correctness
[08:59:30] <@Thidran> tone policing as a whole is dumb.
[08:59:48] <stealthsuit> Shit-stomping faggots, bitchy trannies, goddamn niggers, stupid fucking kikes and fuck the gooks.
[08:59:49] <@Thidran> I'm mainly stepping in whenever it looks like someone's beginning to rage though.
[09:00:04] <@Thidran> Only because it defeats the purpose of letting them flail at you.
[09:00:27] <stealthsuit> Yup
[09:00:57] <basedtc> wait so is gamergate's cause to just say whatever you want?
[09:01:03] <Moltar> basedtc if you want to join in the conversation you can feel free.  Most people here are reasonably minded to disagreement, I think.  You don't have to sit at the back passing snide remarks
[09:01:05] <basedtc> I don't get how "Shit-stomping faggots, bitchy trannies, goddamn niggers, stupid fucking kikes and fuck the gooks. " is helping the cause
[09:01:33] <Moltar> basedtc the invisible hand
[09:01:42] <basedtc> ditto holding Milo up, he seems to be covering this opportunistically (why aren't other conservative voices supporting GG?)
[09:01:46] <Moltar> shitposting will find its rightful place in the shitter
[09:01:56] <Moltar> the best posts will be pushed to the top through natural selection
[09:02:02] <basedtc> do you really believe that?
[09:02:13] <Moltar> it's worked for gamergate thus far
[09:02:21] <basedtc> how so
[09:02:33] <Moltar> because that's what's been happening this whole time
[09:02:50] <Moltar> and our message has for the most part stayed on course
[09:03:11] <Moltar> the opposition keeps trying to obfuscate our motives and ambitions
[09:03:16] <Moltar> but it's not working very well
[09:03:17] <basedtc> which are?
[09:03:28] <basedtc> genuinely curious what you think your ambitions are
[09:03:48] <Moltar> ethical standards in video game journalism, no more ideological nepotism and cronyism
[09:03:52] <@Thidran> ^
[09:04:14] <@Thidran> It seems that video game journalists are aiming to drag everything down with 'em in the process.
[09:04:17] <@Thidran> Which I find amusing.
[09:04:25] <@Thidran> Hell, they did the samson option yesterday against youtubers.
[09:04:29] <Moltar> journalists having positions of power over their readers and using that position to censor those who disagree with them
[09:04:38] <basedtc> what does censor mean, hiding comments?
[09:04:40] <basedtc> that's not censorship
[09:04:40] <@Thidran> No.
[09:04:43] <Underdose> how about people voice their opinions without having to tailor it to other people's bias
[09:04:49] <Underdose> and we all get along blisfully
[09:05:39] <Moltar> basedtc blackballing them from inclusion into the industry, threatening their livelihoods, acts of violence (syringe to milo)
[09:05:41] <Moltar> etc..

[09:06:51] <basedtc> so what does ethical games journalism look like
[09:07:02] <@Thidran> Gimme a moment.
[09:07:15] <@Thidran> http://www.afjonline.com/ethics.cfm Option one.
[09:07:26] <@Thidran> http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp
[09:07:28] <@Thidran> Option 2.
[09:07:43] <@Thidran> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/12224-The-Official-Ethics-Policy-of-The-Escapist
[09:07:45] <@Thidran> Option 3.

[09:07:55] <basedtc> most of the publications you are blackballing abide by SPJ
[09:08:03] <@Thidran> At this point, they have three options to pick and choose from to cobble together.
[09:08:05] <@Thidran> And no they don't.
[09:08:08] <basedtc> yes they do!
[09:08:12] <@Thidran> Not even close.
[09:09:15] <Moltar> yeahh..... nahh bro
[09:09:21] <Moltar> not even close lmao
[09:09:29] <Moltar> not even fucking close

[09:09:33] <basedtc> I mean the gaming industry has forced publications to operate within a context of access journalism forever, why are you not going after the publishers?
[09:09:49] <basedtc> hell, GameInformer is owned by GameStop and was one of the most popular for a long time
[09:09:50] <@Thidran> You think we aren't?
[09:10:00] * @Thidran grins toothily.
[09:10:03] <basedtc> I haven't seen any GG messaging directed at game companies
[09:10:25] <basedtc> I'd love to see it if it exists
[09:10:57] <Moltar> basedtc I don't see the publishers as responsible for the ideological cronyism and nepotism.
[09:12:04] <Moltar> basedtc but these problems of ideological cronyism and ideological nepotism are relatively new, and IMO are infinitely more toxic to the industry

[09:12:18] <basedtc> what is an example of ideological nepotism moltar, coverage of indie games?
[09:12:24] <@Thidran> No.
[09:12:29] <basedtc> cultural criticism?
[09:12:33] <@Thidran> Only allowing games in if it fulfills a specific slant.
[09:12:45] <basedtc> what do you mean only allowing games in
[09:12:47] <@Thidran> Note, we've already fought against this a decade ago.
[09:12:52] <@Thidran> Selective coverage.
[09:12:54] <basedtc> last I checked sites like Kotaku and Polygon cover all the big blockbusters
[09:13:04] <@Thidran> I'm not talking blockbusters.
[09:13:28] <basedtc> what do you think these journalists should not be covering
[09:13:38] <@Thidran> based: Their friends.
[09:13:41] <@Thidran> Their lovers.
[09:13:48] <@Thidran> The people they financially support.
[09:13:48] <Moltar> basedtc it's not the cultural criticism in itself, it's the behavior of the cartel which coerces a very specific brand of cultural criticism on its audience and excludes from the agenda any debate or questions about this type of cultural criticism

[09:13:50] <basedtc> wasn't the zoe quinn thing debunked
[09:13:56] <@Thidran> It was not.
[09:14:23] <@Thidran> See, the original claim was debunked yes(No reviews).
[09:14:29] <@Thidran> But what those jokers didn't realize is...
[09:14:35] <@Thidran> The guy's boss confirmed the romantic relationship.
[09:14:43] <%fotts> Maya Kramer, and Robert Arnott still gave her those rewards regardless of how intimately related they were
[09:14:55] <%fotts> Nathan Grayson?
[09:14:56] <@Thidran> What his dispute was is that it didn't happen during the same time frame that the articles were written.
[09:15:10] <@Thidran> (Which, by the way, STILL rate as a CoI because of him being friends with her beforehand).
[09:15:13] <basedtc> right, if it happened afterward how could there be any conflict
[09:15:15] <@Thidran> Yes, Nathan Grayson.
[09:15:20] <@Thidran> Because he was friends with her.
[09:15:26] <@Thidran> Sleeping with someone just makes it even more obvious.
[09:15:27] <%fotts> He went official two days after the article, but was with her a month before, if you look at the Convention Vlogs, Thidran basedtc
[09:15:37] <@Thidran> fotts: Ayup.
[09:16:09] <%fotts> The best part is that most of the 5 Guys were there, too!
[09:16:14] <@Thidran> Mmhmm!
[09:16:16] <@Thidran> That shit was hilarious.
[09:16:16] <Moltar> lol I had a 4 hour debate with some SJW yesterday who failed to understand that sexual relationships and monetary exchange between journalist+subject compromise journalistic integrity regardless of whether it was a transactional arragement or not

[09:17:12] <basedtc> so you guys think this example of conflict of interest represents a systemic problem with people who cover games
[09:17:20] <%fotts> Yes
[09:17:21] <@Thidran> It became it, yeah.
[09:17:25] <Moltar> yup
[09:17:31] <basedtc> ok
[09:17:34] <Moltar> not unique to games, of course
[09:17:39] <@Thidran> Before the gamers are dead issue, we found what was it?
[09:17:44] <@Thidran> At least a dozen separate instances?
[09:17:47] <Moltar> but games are our industry and we care about them

[09:17:48] <%fotts> Hell, Dewrito Pope is a saint compared to these ass bags
[09:17:53] <@Thidran> fotts: No.
[09:18:00] <@Thidran> No he's not, but he does a different form of corruption.
[09:18:05] <@Thidran> Just keep that in mind.
[09:18:18] <%fotts> Yeah, tie-in deals that were too tied-in
[09:18:25] <%fotts> Also, bumping metacritic scores
[09:18:39] <Makarios> Remeber Patricia Hernandez? She was one of the most blalant ones
[09:18:44] <@Thidran> Yep.
[09:18:46] <%fotts> Getting promo's from sponsors is ok, but when it gets in the way of integrity, you are out the door
<<continued discussion about past scandals>>

[09:19:50] <Moltar> basedtc what's your connection to this whole issue?  I'm not asking you for your identity, but if you wouldn't mind explaining a bit about where you're coming from, I think it would help for the sake of empathy and understanding
[09:20:48] <Moltar> basedtc like what do you view as the most positive and negative aspects of gamergate and why do you agree or disagree with those aspects
[09:21:00] <basedtc> Moltar I write for The Verge :)
[09:21:08] <Moltar> ok
[09:21:29] <@Thidran> Fair enough.
[09:21:34] <basedtc> I'm a journalist, I wrote the piece last night that everyone is angry about
[09:21:37] <basedtc> happy to reveal my identity
[09:21:41] <basedtc> just want to talk to some folks
[09:21:42] <@Thidran> Understandable.
[09:21:52] <basedtc> thanks for speaking with me
[09:21:53] <@Thidran> Because you're likely on the outside looking in.
[09:22:01] <@Thidran> Everyone's welcome here since it's a public room.

[09:22:06] <Moltar> basedtc would you mind verifying that through a tweet or something?  have to be skeptical
[09:22:07] <basedtc> well I've been a PC gamer for two decades for what it;s worth
[09:22:25] <Moltar> hey, me too
[09:22:26] <basedtc> sure Moltar I'll tweet "420" in a minute
[09:22:33] <Moltar> ok
<he tweets from @chillmage to verify his identity>

[09:25:55] <basedtc> well just to be clear my boss didn't tell me to write that piece, I stand behind it fully
[09:26:07] <@Thidran> Alright then.
[09:27:24] <stealthsuit> Wait
[09:27:29] <stealthsuit> You're THAT TC?
[09:27:32] <Moltar> basedtc just gonna read your piece again so it's fresh in my mind
[09:27:34] <stealthsuit> Oh my god
[09:27:35] <@Thidran> He is.
[09:27:43] <%fotts> calm yo tits, stealthsuit
[09:27:44] <@Thidran> Hey, he's willing to stand up for his article.
[09:27:50] <stealthsuit> No, I'm surprised
[09:27:52] <@Thidran> Give him respect for his guts.
[09:28:02] <stealthsuit> He's willing to directly engage us
[09:28:02] <stealthsuit> That's gutsy
[09:28:04] <Moltar> don't gang up on him, be kind
[09:28:05] <@Thidran> Indeed.
[09:29:07] <stealthsuit> So uh, welcome to our cathedral of misogyny.
[09:29:15] <basedtc> lol

[09:30:13] <basedtc> well I'm not going to *stay* here because I imagine you all would find that to be a chilling effect, but if you want to talk to me I'll be here for a bit
[09:30:37] <stealthsuit> No dude, you're welcome to hang out
[09:30:44] <stealthsuit> You'll hear a lot of expletives, though, this is a free speech zone
[09:31:12] <basedtc> fuck shit piss cunt cock motherfucker tits
[09:31:14] <@Thidran> Nah, that's fine based.
[09:31:18] <basedtc> is that the secret handshake
[09:31:19] <@Thidran> You're welcome to visit whenever.
[09:31:27] <%fotts> We don't let hot button words shut down discussion
[09:31:29] <@Thidran> Because we're a public room.
[09:31:42] <@Thidran> Been waiting actually, since so few accepted the invitation.
[09:32:15] <meklu> The secret handshake is a mere /join

[09:33:14] <Moltar> basedtc your article just seems like an aggregation of inflammatory stereotypes, buzzwords, and attitudes.  So, I guess, congrats for summing up the anti-GG rhetoric.  You didn't do a bad job with that.
[09:35:03] <basedtc> Moltar I'll be very clear with a TL;DR (from my personal standpoint and not professional): from a strategic point of view gamergate has virtually no credibility because it's been punching down from the beginning. IMO you're going after the wrong people
[09:35:48] <Moltar> basedtc you're set on the whole gamergate is hypocritical because we're ignoring AAA related corruption in media?
[09:36:07] <%fotts> How can the bottom, the gamers, punch down at the industry, who is above us? basedtc
[09:36:07] <basedtc> I don't think it's hypocritical I just think it's misguided
[09:36:13] <basedtc> the industry is not above you fotts
[09:36:19] <basedtc> consumers drive the industry
[09:36:27] <%fotts> But they are not at the top
[09:36:27] <basedtc> their preferences are reflected in what they get out of it
[09:36:37] <stealthsuit> But consumers are the passive agent of the relation, basedtc
[09:36:42] <basedtc> and for the vast majority of gaming history those preferences have been embodied by dudes
[09:36:46] <%fotts> YOu have the pyramid of power/representation backwards, basedtc
[09:36:52] <@Thidran> Mm, not exactly.
[09:36:56] <@Thidran> It has been off and on.
[09:36:57] <Standard> Attacking the people who have the power to censor, spread propaganda and misrepresent you is punching down, clearly.
[09:36:59] <@Thidran> With women coming along over the years.

[09:37:01] <Moltar> basedtc you don't think there's any creedence to the idea of ideological cronyism and ideological nepotism between game journos, PR, academics, and indie devs?
[09:37:23] <basedtc> sure I think journalists are too cozy with the indie scene but to say that's the critical problem in games journalism is laughable
[09:37:41] <basedtc> games journalism is bullshit, it's based totally on access with corporate representation and there's no way around it
[09:37:46] <@Thidran> There is.
[09:37:48] <basedtc> journalists have less power than you think in the scheme
[09:37:53] <@Thidran> But I don't think that they're going to like it.
[09:38:07] <@Thidran> Why do you think we're planning on holding out until the holidays?
[09:38:15] * @Thidran grins mischievously.
[09:38:25] <Moltar> basedtc I notice you're forgoing the ideological problems entirely and just looking at 'closeness' regardless of the motivations and nature of that closeness

[09:39:20] <meklu> basedtc: so you're saying you'd prefer to have people going after the Activision/EA/Ubisoft level of developers?
[09:39:30] <basedtc> yes!
[09:39:36] <basedtc> not really I'd prefer
[09:39:45] <basedtc> I don't have a big dog in this fight personally

[09:40:07] <meklu> I'd say that much of this controversy seems to have sparked from there being a seemingly anti-gamer backlash upon calling out rotten behaviour
[09:40:10] <%fotts> We don't like being misrepresented, is all, basedtc
[09:40:14] <%fotts> Or lied to
[09:40:21] <%fotts> I think other people can at least agree on that
[09:40:41] <basedtc> yeah well it's going to be very difficult to control your image based on Gamergate's origins and the level of anger and harassment that's come out of it, whether any of you have been involved in that or not
[09:41:00] <basedtc> which is actually the biggest point I wanted to make in my piece
[09:41:12] <basedtc> I wasn't saying that all GG supporters are angry militants, not even close to what I was saying
[09:41:18] <basedtc> but the well is poisoned
[09:41:29] <@Thidran> Not really, because otherwise we wouldn'tve lasted so long.
[09:41:30] <GreyFoxx> based: Show me a "well" that isn't
[09:41:36] <basedtc> that's an equivocation

[09:41:48] <stealthsuit> I think there's a mischaracterization of this movement to begin with
[09:41:48] <stealthsuit> basedtc: Have you read the actual timeline?
[09:41:48] <stealthsuit> The harrassment started from the other side
[09:41:48] <stealthsuit> This would not have blown up if it hadn't been for the Streisand Effect.
[09:41:56] <basedtc> gamergate's trolls have been extremely loud compared to other movements
[09:42:00] <GreyFoxx> As soon as you have more than 1 person in any group/movement, SOMEONE is going to do or say something others disagree with
[09:42:10] <GreyFoxx> and then outsides will use that 1 to blame the entire crowd

[09:42:37] <Moltar> basedtc just to clarify, are you saying that the ideological homogenity between journos/pr/indies and issues of nepotism and cronyism therein are not as problematic as AAA-related corruption?  Or are you saying that those problems don't exist at all?
[09:43:36] <basedtc> I don't think there is ideological homogeneity, not to the extent that's being alleged. if anything the homogeneity historically has been to try to cover games from the bullshit "perspective from nowhere" and only focus on mechanical things instead of cultural criticism
[09:44:04] <basedtc> to be fair games have only recently started to become widely accepted as art so cultural criticism is also developing
[09:45:17] <Moltar> basedtc so you don't think the thunderous denouncement of anyone who dissents to that ideology is symptomatic of a problem to do with homogeneity?
[09:45:21] <stealthsuit> How about artistic instead of cultural criticism?
[09:45:21] <stealthsuit> You know the implications of cultural criticism.
[09:45:21] <stealthsuit> Not all of us want to be told how sexist a game is
[09:45:21] <stealthsuit> In fact, any such reporting just makes me ignore the article
[09:45:21] <%fotts> The large issue is that it's extremely rare for the "critics" to become so homogenised (same opinion across Vox, Kotaku, Polygon, Gamasutra, etc), and outright censor/ignore/attack its core demographic.
[09:45:33] <basedtc> stealthsuit the obvious response is not to read it
[09:46:00] <stealthsuit> Shouldn't games journalists be able to provide a balanced response or increase the political diversity of their staff, then?
[09:46:09] <%fotts> But when it's industry wide, and it causes wide spread defamation? basedtc ? Need I remind you of the creator of Cards Against Humanity
[09:46:13] <stealthsuit> Maybe I want to read a review that doesn't sound exactly like all the other ones.
[09:46:17] <basedtc> fotts I think that's a conspiracy theory, it's like charges of "liberal media" -- inclusivity is a prevailing perspective now it doesn't constitute cronyism
[09:46:17] <%fotts> Or the group behind dragon's crown
[09:47:06] <Moltar> basedtc so you don't think the thunderous denouncement of anyone who dissents to that ideology is symptomatic of a problem to do with homogeneity?
<<2nd time asked (3rd including fotts' iteration of the same question), no response>>

[09:47:19] <basedtc> "objective" game reviews in the sense of not saying anything about its cultural import are not objective, they are just as political because they protect the status quo
[09:47:24] <%fotts> there was inclusivity regardless, but by spamming those slant pieces, more and more people will take them at face value, regardless of the validity. Saying the industry and community are sexist with no substantive evidence infact scares women away from the industry and community, slowing down the march.
[09:47:47] <%fotts> It's how political campaigns works
[09:47:54] <@Thidran> The problem with the slant is you don't hold up positive examples.
[09:48:05] <basedtc> like this comment that was just made in kotakuinaction is one of the reasons people are reacting to GG: "i'm tired of white feminists trying to change stuff because they're butthurt about a little thing "
[09:48:32] <basedtc> the industry is sexist! there's a ton of evidence!
[09:48:36] <%fotts> You do need to realise it's mostly white men speaking on behalf of women about feminism, basedtc
[09:48:55] <basedtc> yeah and that's sad I wish I had more female colleagues
[09:49:00] <%fotts> Seems kind of counterintuitive, no?
[09:49:00] <basedtc> but it doesn't invalidate an argument
[09:49:16] <%fotts> It's invalidated because they ignore women that disagree with them
[09:49:16] <basedtc> you know, a lot of women are afraid to speak out online about things
[09:49:37] <stealthsuit> basedtc: Max Temkin is a feminist, yet he got thrown under the bus because people didn't get their facts straight
[09:49:42] <Moltar> basedtc it's a poorly worded comment.  Perhaps it would better written as "I'm tired of white feminists trying to coerce change because they're butthurt about little things'
[09:49:45] <stealthsuit> To the point where he had to apologize for being accused of rape
[09:49:50] <TheBaconFromHell> idk what you are saying basedtc, I spoke with a couple female developers.
[09:50:08] <basedtc> and?
[09:50:10] <TheBaconFromHell> I think everyone here did.
[09:50:20] <TheBaconFromHell> none of them were afraid to speak out.
[09:50:28] <basedtc> that's... anecdotal
[09:50:29] <@Thidran> Some aren't, some are.
[09:50:39] <basedtc> "not all female developers"
[09:50:42] <%fotts> Also Roberta Williams, and the Video Series made by TFYC want to talk to you. Also the lead designer for Bayonetta, and the Executive at FromSOFT
[09:51:00] <%fotts> Also the women from the Women of GamerGate Streams
[09:51:01] <TheBaconFromHell> one said that they wanted to make more female protagonists however demographics and sales and such wouldn't allow it.
[09:51:03] <@Thidran> based: Alright, here's one bit to think on...you might think that harassment is a gendered issue due to the methods trolls have been using...
[09:51:11] <basedtc> nobody is saying women are not part of gamergate
[09:51:21] <@Thidran> But what you might not notice is the trolls tailor their insults to derive the most pain.
[09:51:37] <@Thidran> What women have shown the trolls is apparently their gender gives them the most pain.
[09:51:42] <@Thidran> And thus, gendered insults by them.
[09:52:14] <%fotts> Also, tell me of this evidence of sexism, basedtc

[09:52:22] <basedtc> thebaconfromhell doesn't that indicate sexism
[09:52:33] <basedtc> that demographics and sales wouldn't support making more female protagonists
[09:52:42] <Moltar> basedtc I think you'd agree that journalists are obligated to report in the interests of their readers (in our industry's case: consumers).  I think fundamentally, one of the main differences between ourselves and you is the idea of 'the consumers' best interests'.
[09:52:48] <%fotts> Look at Dota2, and Lol, basedtc
[09:52:49] <basedtc> that doesn't just speak to sexism in the games industry, it speaks to the sexism of its audience
[09:52:56] <@Thidran> Oh boy...
[09:53:02] <%fotts> Costume sales at Vindictus
[09:53:08] <stealthsuit> Female protagonists have been made since games started
[09:53:16] <%fotts> Also the people who main as women in the FGC, and fighting games in general
[09:53:27] <Moltar> basedtc but don't you find it strange that, as journalists, you're arguing with consumers about what is best for them?  As if you'd know better than us?  What right do you think you have to decide this?
[09:53:33] <basedtc> you guys are cherry picking examples and not seeing the forest

[09:54:13] <basedtc> moltar nobody is telling consumers what's best for them as far as I know
[09:54:28] <stealthsuit> Well, actually
[09:54:29] <stealthsuit> they are, TC
[09:54:31] <basedtc> by way of analogy
[09:55:16] <Moltar> basedtc but you are essentially ordering people who disagree with this radfem rhetoric to shut up and swallow it, because you know what's best and they don't.  Just look at the rhetoric about entitled manbaby misogynists.
[09:55:43] <Moltar> basedtc it's exactly what you are doing
<<people continue to name games with female protagonists & strong female characters>>
[09:56:52] <basedtc> that's kind of a warped way of looking at it. a lot of people are saying that games portray women in a bad light (hint: just having a woman in a game does not constitute inclusivity)
[09:57:06] <Moltar> basedtc how is it warped?
[09:57:33] <basedtc> you're framing it as people telling consumers what they should want, this isn't about consumers it's about people -- it's a social reaction that has very little to actually do with video games
[09:57:39] <basedtc> it's a battle that's been fought all over the place
[09:57:41] <basedtc> in the tech industry
[09:57:43] <basedtc> in hollywood
[09:58:39] <Moltar> basedtc sorry but this is a free market, and it IS about consumers whether you want it to be or not.
[09:59:07] <basedtc> sorry I was unclear, it's not about consumers in the sense of this is not just an economic issue

[10:01:56] <Moltar> basedtc so what gives you the justification for belittling the concerns of your consumers.  You can't just hide behind the claim that it's a 'societal reaction' which you have no control over and everyone is just going to have to accept it, don't shoot the messenger guys.
[10:02:06] <basedtc> it's deeply hypocritical to on the one hand demand that people (especially journalists) take video games seriously and on the other hand denounce anything that looks at them critically for what they are (often sexist, sometimes racist, etc)
[10:02:19] <Moltar> this is a very specific rhetoric being pushed with very specific ambitions and implications
[10:02:26] <%fotts> The consumer disagrees en masse
[10:02:28] <Moltar> it should be thoroughly scrutinized and properly so
[10:02:36] <%fotts> So, there's probably a reason for that, basedtc
[10:02:43] <Moltar> and the consumers are going to do that by themselves if the journalists make no attempt
[10:02:45] <Moltar> this is gamergate
[10:02:46] <TheBaconFromHell> yknow the saying "everyones a critic"
[10:02:53] <%fotts> lol

[10:03:27] <%fotts> We already have people to replace you, but we don't want you to continue to abuse your consumer base
[10:03:38] <%fotts> We don't think you are deserving
[10:03:48] <%fotts> So there goes your clicks, and your advertisers
[10:03:49] <basedtc> that sounds pretty entitled and childish to be honest
[10:03:55] <%fotts> Not really
[10:03:57] <Moltar> lmao
[10:03:57] <Standard> Pffft.
[10:04:00] <%fotts> I'm a consumer
[10:04:04] <basedtc> so?
[10:04:05] <basedtc> everyone is
[10:04:11] <basedtc> what does that have to do with sexism in video games
[10:04:17] <%fotts> It means it is your job to adequately represent the games to us
[10:04:18] <basedtc> and criticism of it
[10:04:22] <%fotts> If you say they are sexist
[10:04:27] <%fotts> and everyone else disagrees
[10:04:32] <Standard> "You're entitled to think that a website for gamers should not hate gamers"
[10:04:34] <TheBaconFromHell> its ok to criticise games. Just not people.
[10:04:35] <basedtc> that's bullshit if you think adequate representation of video games means no cultural observation
[10:04:42] <TheBaconFromHell> the consumers.
[10:05:27] <Moltar> basedtc so what you're saying is journalists are fully justified in pushing propaganda as long as they see it as some uncontrollable sea of change symbolic of societal evolution, and that anyone who wants that change properly examined, scrutinized, and criticized is an entitled baby?
[10:05:28] <basedtc> I am supposed to represent the truth
[10:05:31] <basedtc> as a journalist
[10:05:35] <basedtc> not any one party
[10:05:41] <@Thidran> Correct.l
[10:05:56] <@Thidran> Would you like us to point out factually inaccurate pieces of your article?
[10:06:23] <basedtc> lol

[10:06:31] <stealthsuit> In a democracy, the wishes of the people represent the manifestation of their interests. What's happening with the fourth estate in gaming right now is an anti-democratic feeling; either journalists learn to balance their ideals with their reporting or their parent companies should hire people with opposing worldviews to make reviews and reporting. What you seem to be missing here is
[10:06:31] <stealthsuit> that the Fourth Estate is meant to be perused with varying sources for multiple viewpoints. We are seeing ONE viewpoint.
[10:06:47] <basedtc> that's not a correct view of journalism
[10:06:56] <basedtc> if you think it exists to align with your interests
[10:07:33] <Moltar> basedtc right, but we are alleging that YOU are the one who thinks journalism exists to align to your interests
[10:07:47] <Moltar> we are voicing our concerns as consumers
[10:07:59] <basedtc> and you are not only seeing one viewpoint, there are all kinds of viewpoints being espoused, but there's a history of Gamergate and it has a character based on the outsize response of its biggest trolls
[10:08:00] <Moltar> we don't have the same voice or power that journalists do
[10:08:21] <stealthsuit> No, basedtc, ALL stories, on EVERY game for the past 16 months at least
[10:08:23] <stealthsuit> have had the same party line
[10:08:26] <basedtc> gamers who don't want to hear criticism of games they like are mistaken in thinking they are underdogs
[10:08:29] <stealthsuit> There's no diversity of thought.
[10:08:33] <basedtc> that's hyperbole
[10:08:43] <stealthsuit> Maybe it is.
[10:08:53] <stealthsuit> But so it is to claim we're the patriarchy's children

[10:08:55] <basedtc> let me ask a question here
[10:09:04] <Moltar> go ahead
[10:09:09] <basedtc> what is the opposite of the party line you're talking about
[10:09:14] <basedtc> what is the other viewpoint
[10:09:23] <basedtc> that no games are sexist? that the industry has no issues?
[10:09:27] <stealthsuit> No
[10:09:29] <@Thidran> No.
[10:11:21] <+Moltar> basedtc I have no problem with ideologically driven criticism.  Whatsoever.  IMO the people who are say they want nothing to do with that are just uneducated.  My problem is with the problems of cronyism and nepotism stemming from the homogeneity of that ideology in the industry.
[10:12:07] <+basedtc> Moltar I've just seen no evidence that it exists unless your problem is with companies hiring people that share similar views
[10:12:13] <@Thidran> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/12314-The-Methods-of-Journalism-Have-Changed-Doing-It-Correctly-Hasn-t
[10:12:38] <+Moltar> basedtc this is fascinating to me that you are so insistant this problem does not exist
[10:12:39] <@Thidran> It's not a gaming piece though, but is relevant to the realities of clickbait journalism.
[10:13:25] <+basedtc> I read this escapist piece, it's another old guy meeting the reality of new media :)
[10:13:30] <@Thidran> Indeed.
[10:13:40] <@Thidran> But even if he is an old guy, it's a good viewpoint to look at.
[10:13:55] <+basedtc> sure, I just don't think it's really informative about gamergate per se
[10:14:06] <@Thidran> It is actually.
[10:14:31] <@Thidran> Because it assists in a critical issue in it: What makes good journalism? He is attempting to inform what does.
[10:14:37] <+basedtc> reviews are opinion, not news
[10:14:41] <@Thidran> It doesn't necessarily mean he is succeeding though.
[10:14:49] <@Thidran> Reviews are a mix of opinion and fact.
[10:15:07] <@Thidran> They're inherently subjective, but there are objective criteria you can deploy.
[10:15:22] <@Thidran> (It's a fine balance though.)

[10:15:36] <+Moltar> basedtc I suppose we should ask, even though we've become so used to ignoring the insults, what's with your fetishization of the image of gamers as entitled, privileged, misogynist, white, male, straight, cis, manbaby sociopaths?
[10:15:48] <@Thidran> Moltar: Remember...
[10:15:56] <@Thidran> These folk regularly are stuck seeing trolls day in and day out.
[10:15:56] <+basedtc> sure, but mostly what I'm hearing from GG supporters is that they want "objective" reviews based on only facts (read: no cultural/political analysis)
[10:16:13] <@Thidran> He doesn't usually get to meet even the informed folk, let alone the average joe.
[10:16:48] <@Thidran> In reviews? No, I don't want excessive cultural/political analysis.
[10:16:53] <@Thidran> Those are better served in Op Eds.
[10:16:56] <+Moltar> basedtc that's an idiotic viewpoint and is rightly ridiculed, imo
[10:16:56] <+basedtc> moltar I don't remotely think that represents all gamers, but privileged white men drove mass consumer adoption of video games and video game content reflects their preferences still, even if the makeup of video game consumers looks radically different
[10:17:19] <+basedtc> I'm one of them
[10:18:17] <+basedtc> so I think there's room for both thidran
[10:18:30] <+basedtc> there are a lot of people who just want what is basically industry hype in news and reviews
[10:18:35] <@Thidran> Indeed.
[10:18:38] <+basedtc> they want to get GameInformer and see the inside scoop on stuff
[10:18:43] <+basedtc> from the mouth of the companies they like
[10:18:44] <+basedtc> I get that
[10:18:54] <+basedtc> I don't think anybody is saying there's no *market* for that

[10:18:57] <+Moltar> from a purely economic standpoint, don't you think you're compromising the duty of journalists to their readers in pushing ideological change within a free market.  What if you're wrong about that change being the right change, for example?
[10:19:23] <+Moltar> you have incredible power to enforce that change after all
[10:19:34] <+basedtc> that's a weird idea moltar, I don't really get it. are you saying it's our job to agree with however people spend money?
[10:19:45] <+Moltar> no
[10:20:15] <+Moltar> all I'm saying is, I don't think you've properly considered the possibility that you might be wrong in using your power to push your rhetoric
[10:20:45] <+Moltar> because if you are wrong, then you've grossly compromised your obligation to act in the interests of your readers and in the interests of furthering truth
[10:20:46] <@Thidran> If words aren't carefully placed, they can cause great damage.
[10:20:59] <@Thidran> (See: Gamers are dead articles as an example.)
[10:21:09] <@Thidran> Yes, I read through several of them.
[10:21:18] <+Moltar> you have immense power, in one of the most valuable industries in the world
[10:21:25] <+basedtc> I have no obligation to act in the economic interest of my readers
[10:21:26] <+Moltar> consumers are saying en masse that you're abusing that power
[10:21:32] <+basedtc> that would actually be a form of corruption
[10:21:35] <+Moltar> and yet you dismiss their concerns as nothing at all
[10:21:35] <+basedtc> if I did that
[10:21:44] <+Moltar> you don't even think there could be a danger to your actions?
[10:21:54] <+basedtc> what is the danger? that games become more egalitarian?
[10:22:04] <@Thidran> based: They already are becoming more egalitarian.
[10:22:21] <@Thidran> In fact, I've been supporting said games by putting my money where my mouth is.
[10:22:37] <@Thidran> And not buying games I lack interest in.
[10:22:39] <+Moltar> the danger is that whatever idealization of the change you think you're pushing for might not end up being in the best interests of your consumers
[10:22:48] <+Moltar> and a lot of your consumers seem to think that is the case

[10:22:56] <+basedtc> sorry folks -- I really appreciate the conversation we had this morning but I have to get back to my duties, news cycle is calling me
[10:23:01] <@Thidran> Sure thing.
[10:23:04] <@Thidran> Appreciate your time.
[10:23:10] <@Thidran> Welcome to come back whenever.
[10:23:10] <+Moltar> ^ thanks for talking to us
[10:23:16] <+basedtc> cheers
<<End>>