HuffPost Live: Does #GamerGate Have The Support Of Female Ga

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SHORT DESCRIPTION:
A transcript of an October 2014 online interview of three female #GamerGate supporters about issues surrounding the hashtag.

TITLE OF INTERVIEW:
HuffPost Live: Does #GamerGate Have The Support Of Female Gamers?

PROMOTIONAL STATEMENT:
As #GamerGate continues to stir up controversy both within and beyond the gaming community, plenty of female gamers have spoken up in support of the movement. A panel of female gamers joins us to discuss what they really think #GamerGate is about.

DATE OF WEBCAST: October 15, 2014
LENGTH: 28m 51s

HOST: Ricky Camilleri, @RickyCam

GUESTS:
- Georgina Young @georgieonthego (Saga, Japan) Staff Writer at Gamesided
- Jennie Bharaj @jenniebharaj (Vancouver, Canada) YouTuber; Gamer
- Jemma Morgan @ShuluuMoo (London, United Kingdom) Gamer

Original hosted on Huffingtonpost at the following URL:
http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/gamergate-and-women-in-video-game-culture/543c686878c90a71ff000157

Copy hosted on YouTube at the following URL:
https://youtu.be/QBSz6kSyzX8

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Transcript done by Reddit users mracidglee and Lucky0Looser June 2015.

Reddit discussion about the transcription at:
https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3b3oxa/ideas_transcribe_the_huffpost_interview_of/

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BEGIN OF TRANSCRIPT:

Ricky Camilleri [00:00]: You're watching HuffPost Live, I'm Ricky Camilleri. On Tuesday, I hosted a discussion about GamerGate, and things got heated, to say the least. Many viewers chimed in, both in our HuffPost Live comment section, as well as on Twitter, where they continued to chime in - all night, and into the morning, and I responded to some of you, hey guys. One particular voice may have been left out of the debate here, on the HuffPostLive set though, and that's female gamers who support GamerGate. Joining me now to offer their take on the conversation we have Georgina Young, a staff writer at GameSided, gamer Jemma Morgan, and Jennie Bharaj, who hosts her own YouTube about the video games industry. Guys, thanks so much for being here, hello.

Bharaj, Morgan, Young [00:39]: Hiya! Hello!

Camilleri [00:41]: So Jennie, you were live-tweeting during the segment yesterday, here is one thing that you said about the segment: "That was horrible. GamerGate isn't about misogyny, 8chan, or neutrality. I should have been in this debate. I'm pissed off." So now, you're joining us now, and we wanna hear your side. What is GamerGate, and how do you think people are misunderstanding it?

Bharaj [01:06]: Uh, before I get into that, uh, I apologize for my passion. I do tend to tweet a lot when I'm passionate about things that I feel are important. When it does come to GamerGate, I have been noticing that it has been heavily misunderstood as a social revolt against women and minorities. And, um, that is essentially not the case. If it was the case, I wouldn't be sitting here in front of you right now, nor my colleagues Georgina or Jemma. So, GamerGate is essentially a consumer response against corrupt journalism in the gaming industry. And we've been having suspicions of these collusions for several years, and I think due to the catalyst that happened in August 2014, involving a sex scandal, we've essentially been tipped over the edge, so to speak, and we have now created the GamerGate hashtag.

Camilleri [02:11]: Mm-hm. Ah, how often, I have to ask you Jennie, how often does this ethical journalistic problem that you have, tend to fall into when gamer websites, when journalists for gamer websites end up sort of talking about women or minorities in the gaming industry, it seems to me that gamers get really upset by the inclusion of these narratives, inside of talking about games. Rather than just talking about the gaming experience itself. Or is that just a fringe minority of the GamerGate group?

Bharaj [02:14]: Uh, well, uh, I don't really understand your question, are you asking, whether we're angry that there's more of a gender issue when it comes to games?

Camilleri [02:58]: Yeah. It seems to me that some people in the GamerGate community seem to get upset and wrap themselves up in this conversation, not because of a sort of corruption problem but because a lot of gaming sites now talk about feminism, now talk about minority inclusion, and they seem to say, "We want our game conversations, our gaming sites, to talk about games and the experience of playing these games, not about a minority opinion or including minorities."

Bharaj [03:26]: Exactly, and it does anger us, only because this isn't really an issue to begin with. I mean we have so many prominent female figures in the gaming industry. We have Jane McGonigal, we have Robin Hunicke, creater of the MDA framework, we have Jade Raymond, and if we're talking about game devs, we've had amazing games created by female developers. For example, Uncharted, we have King's Quest, we have uh, Legacy of Kain... these issues revolving around feminism and gaming? It's irrelevant. It shouldn't be an issue.

Camilleri [04:08]: Well I think - but I think people should have the right to talk about it, via gaming websites. Georgina do you think GamerGate started off about journalism ethics and has now been, uh, the conversation has been co-opted?

Young [04:19]: Um, what I would say is, that I don't think the conversation has been co-opted. The thing is, that even now, there is a lot of, sort of, in the media, it's very one-sided, in that when you're looking at the articles that are in the media at the moment, they're all, "GamerGate is this angry white neckbeard cis-gendered male, living in his mum's basement, covered in zits or whatever, and this is what, um, there was eleven articles posted on the same day, on August 28, which all said this thing, and they said that gamers are misogynist, they're angry, and these are who these people are, but it simply wasn't true! It wasn't true at all, and that's why things came up like NotYourShield, and things like that, because, the gaming industry was writing that, simply that, people like us, women, minorities, don't exist within the gaming industry, and they were acting like they were protecting us. When actually, it was all, y'know, sort of this cover, and the people of GamerGate, generally who want to talk about things like controversy in journalism, where things are being covered up, for example, you hear about the harassment of several prominent figures, who are against GamerGate. But you don't hear about the daily harassment of people that are pro-GamerGate. For example, Boogie is a really classic one, his wife was sent a death threat and was doxxed recently, and GGfeminist before that, she was also doxxed, and she's just a Twitterer. And I think a lot of these stories aren't covered, and that's what's upsetting people, and really what GamerGate, the vast majority of what GamerGate is speaking about, if you actually talk to the people and read the threads, and read their perspective, the vast majority of people are talking about journalism. But, the narrative was always taken away to the fact that they're saying that they don't want women in video games, or they don't want minorities in video games. and that we just want to talk about video games, but it's not the case at all. We're all fighting for the same thing. We're fighting for better games. And the fact is that we're not given that chance to say it because everyone's saying that, y'know, all GamerGaters are misogynists, and they don't want this, and that they're this angry nerd.

Camilleri [06:36]: I wanna ask the three of you one quick question, right here now that we have you here, because we have three women who play video games, who support GamerGate, I want to say, do you support equality for women in the gaming industry, and do you think it's an important conversation to have? Jemma?

Morgan [06:57]: Yes! Obviously?

Camilleri [07:00]: No just a quick answer, because I want the three of you to, to just say this out loud. Jemma, do you support equality for women in the gaming industry, and do you think it's an important conversation to have, and that the anti-GamerGaters and pro-GamerGaters can come together on this one issue that they really both seem to support?

Morgan [07:18]: Well, d'y'know, I'd like to just point out one thing, with this whole thing: why do you think the opposition keeps using the word misogynist? Think about the…

Camilleri [07:30]: …Ok, Jemma! Jemma! I don't mean to interrupt you, I want to get to you specifically on this in one second, I just wanna see if there is a common ground between the anti and the pro, on this one particular issue - it seems like there is!

Morgan [07:42]: But that's the problem, you keep moving this goal post to say it's about women, and this has nothing to do with women. It is about journalistic integrity, and this is what's important. Women are not important in this conversation about ethics. It's like saying, "Do you think black people should be allowed to work in the industry" - of course black people - d'y'know, anybody! If you are willing to work hard, to make a good game, that people enjoy, it doesn't matter what your sex is, what you identify as, all that matters is your game and, like I said, think of it like this: this word misogyny keeps coming up. Why do you think the word misogyny keeps coming up? Because it's an easy way to deflect any and all criticism from the real issue, and this is what we have a problem with.

Camilleri [08:42]: What's the real issue?

[crosstalk]

Camilleri [04:47]: Guys, Guys, Guys! Hey! Stop interrupting! I'm asking Jemma a simple question, and we're not going to be able to have a real conversation, we're not going to be able to get any points across if everybody interrupts each other, and doesn't answer the questions that are on point. Jemma, what is the real issue? I'm sorry for getting upset, but I don't want people interrupting. Jemma.

Morgan [09:04]: The real issue is that we have a terrible problem with nepotism, with cronyism, with general ethics. We have tenant and landlord, ah, game devs, and game journalists, writing positive reviews and leading people to come and buy their games. You can't tell me this isn't a major issue. We just recently had a game released that got glowing reviews from every single games website, but one website, that happens to be involved in this collusion, eh, docked points because they deemed it incredibly sexist. Now, this kind of thing shouldn't be in an objective review. If you want to talk about feminism in gaming, do it on another platform, but if you're gonna give a review of a game, you need to be objective. Your personal ideology is not here, we don't want to know what your personal ideology is, we just want to know if the game is good, that's all we want to know. We don't need the inclusion of an ideology.

Camilleri [10:17]: But to push back a little bit, I'm a film buff, I read movie reviews all the time, the majority of movie reviews that I read come to it with academic, intellectual lenses in the approach to the reviews, be it feminist, be it Marxist, be it any other kind of academic lens, that the reviewer has hopefully been educated on, they bring to their experience in watching that movie. Why is it not important for a reviewer of a video game, why should video games be excluded from any other kind of academic lens, when approaching a review?

Morgan [10:49]: I will give you a perfect example of a fantastic critic, and it's Jennie, right here. Her videos have a fantastic critique of video games. But she isn't coming at it from an ideology. She's coming with a fair and balanced view. Now, the problem with injecting feminism into gaming is that it's a strong ideology that somebody got a predetermined conclusion that women are oppressed. That there is such a thing as "patriarchy". Now, y'know, there's nothing wrong with people being critical of video games, but, a lot of these prominent figures are not inclu- are not willing to discuss their glaring, y'know, conclusions, you know there is clearly wrong conclusions on some of these things. It's an issue, and I don't think someone's personal ideology should come into gaming journalism. I don't think that people should be giving, y'know, positive press to who they're sleeping with, who they have a relationship with, a friendship with, I don't think they should be donating to their Patreon for just existing. This is a problem. And this is what keeps getting forgotten in the conversation, is that this isn't about misogyny. People - gamers do not hate women.

Camilleri [12:13]: OK, Jemma, I want to take what you said to Jennie here, because I believe there's two things you're saying here, and Jennie, if you could respond to this. One is that yeah, there shouldn't be collusion in reviewers and game developers, and the fact that whether or not they're paid, whether or not they slept with the person, they shouldn't be writing a good review based on that, but at the same time, Jemma's also saying that video game reviews shouldn't address ideological standings that the game may or may not have. Why is that the case, Jennie? Is- Is GamerGate about one or the other, or both?

Bharaj [12:50]: GamerGate is essentially about corrupt journalism. Jemma had a great point, because these corrupt journalists, what they're doing is they're going against the code of ethics in accordance to the Society of Professional Journalism. This is highly unprofessional. And I'd like to take the time right now to list some of the websites who are involved in this corrupt journalism right now. They are the following: Kotaku, Polygon, Ars Technica, Rock Paper Shotgun, Gamasutra, and NeoGAF. These are the prominent figures of the gaming journalism industry today, and they need to be told off. It's not right what they're doing.

Camilleri [13:40]: So, let's change gears a little bit. Let's concede that there are, that there are trolls, that there are extreme trolls out there who have harassed and threatened certain people who have spoken out against GamerGate and those who have spoken for GamerGate. And that you would all say, Georgina you would say that they don’t speak on behalf of the greater movement. Right?

Young [14:05]: Oh, absolutely! No way. I'd like to say for a start, I never said that I am a GamerGate supporter, I'm quiet neutral on the subject. But on both sides I would say the vast majority of the death threats and the harassment is probably done by a number of one or two specific individuals and trolls on both sides. You know, when you have such a large group of people for example the subreddit KotakuInAction for GamerGaters has eleven thousand subscribers so you know it is a huge movement. And there is always gonna be a couple of people within that movement who, you know, aren’t doing the nicest of things, and you are never gonna stop that with a movement of this scale. But at the same time, the vast majority of GamerGaters that I have spoken to, they are the nicest, intelligent and respectable people and they came and they approached me because of my article which was actually sort of hanging slightly on the anti-GamerGate side when I wrote it. They came to me and they said: "Well if you want to know more about GamerGate then we are more then welcome, you know, to answer the questions." On the other side with the anti-gaters, they banned me, they called me, am I allowed to swear, they called me "shitty", they started sending me harassing tweets and actually I felt that if anything I was slightly fighting for them. But I was being… but now I am definitely completely neutral if not leaning on the GamerGate side, because everyone there has been nothing but nice to me and everyone on the other side actually started to harass me.

Bharaj [15:45]: Ricky, I would like to add on to that just the fact that these harassments, they are left and right essentially. And we can not just pinpoint these harassments on to specific movements. I mean the harassments that Brianna Wu has been getting, all these other harassments, they have not been directly linked to GamerGate. So for you to say and for you to discuss these harassments and misogyny and all of that in relation to GamerGate, I find that very offensive, because GamerGate does not stand for that at all.

Camilleri [16:24]: Mhh, but that’s you as one supporter of GamerGate saying…

[crosstalk]

Bharaj [16:30]: …mass movement. We are not focused on misogyny, we are not focused on harassment. If you go to 8chan, the forums for GamerGate, there are sticky posts that directly say we are not going to harass anyone, we are not going to threaten anyone. I encourage you to check it out. GamerGate is not about threatening other people. We are all human beings and all we want is journalistic integrity.

Camilleri [16:58]: Absolutely…

Morgan [16:59]: …I'd just like to add to that, sorry, I'd just like to add to that. You know, we keep coming back to this issue of misogyny and it's just not the case. You know you've seen us, three women here, we love video games, we adore video games. Whenever we see somebody who has been harassed, first people to jump on to it and say quickly get this person down now has been GamerGate. Yet, whenever there is harassment, it is pinned on us and there is no proof at all that it's connected to GamerGate! You have no proof and it's really upsetting to see that GamerGate is being tagged and being assaulted with these tags saying that we are a misogynistic movement we don't wont women in games. You've got three women here who strongly support ethics in games journalism. You know, we do not support harassment but you can not empirically prove that it was GamerGate who had anything to do with this harassment and it's frankly insulting!

Camilleri [18:08]: Ok, I'm just going to say this. I have three women that I am talking to right now who support GamerGate. As an interviewer I have to be somewhat objective, I have to play devils advocate in order to make a conversation happen, I can't sit here and just agree with everything the three of you say and I have people on Twitter who are doing this as well. "Ricky, stop asking question of the forum", "So have you stopped beating your kids yet", "Yes, we all believe in equality". There's lots of other questions, this is incredible. "RickyCam gets three women on the show so that he can constantly interrupt them and ignore all points they bring up". I can't sit here and I can't say yes this is true, yes you are right, every time. The GamerGate people who are watching this, who are tweeting me right now, it's not my job to sit and say Georgina, Jemma, Jennie you are right. It's my job to initiate, engage and have a conversation and to in some capacity reflect the other side of that conversation in order to get them to continue to talk. Jennie, I have to ask you a question again about feminism and my question here is: So often it seems that supporters of GamerGate also support issues against feminism. They support YouTube videos, they support statements against certain types of feminism. How can GamerGate really extricate itself from criticizing feminism, seeming misogynistic and these threats? Because it really feels like you want to. Do you feel like you have a responsibility to really pull GamerGate away from that in terms of how the media perceives it and how do you think you can do that?

Bharaj [19:44]: Ricky, I'm glad you brought this up because when you say that GamerGate is against feminism, they are not against the majority on the feminist group. What they are against is the radical feminist movement, the ones that call themselves social justice warriors. These women and men are essentially very negative. They want men to just disintegrate. it is not right what they are doing. They have become professional victims in a sense, telling us that we should check our privilege every now and then. There is no opportunity for us to even discuss the issues of feminism.

Young [20:30]: Jenny; if you are finished, could I say something?

Camilleri and Bharaj [20:31]: Yes Georgina, please go ahead.

Young [20:34]: Yeah I would also say that there are plenty of feminists in the movement, and a lot of sex-positive feminists are also part of the GamerGate movement. I myself am a sex-positive feminist and I think the media is portraying GamerGate to be an anti-feminist movement, but it's not. I mean there are a couple of non-feminist people within GamerGate, the same as there will be non-feminist people within any movement or any group of people. But in general I think a lot of GamerGaters are looking for the inclusion of in video games - I mean - I'm personally looking for inclusivity in video games and from what I've heard from female developers and staff, they said they feel very welcome within the games industry. And I just think that this movement is tarred with this brush in main stream media which is exactly what we are talking about and makes us question main stream media. And that, you know, if you want to see the real perspective get out there and talk to GamerGaters and meet them and you'll see this lovely bunch of people and they will answer all your questions and the vast, vast, vast majority of them are pro-feminism or wanna see more women in gaming.

Morgan [21:44]: Can I just add that there are so many diverse people in the movement you know, there are so many different political identities. We have left, we have right. we have so many different ethnicities, we have women, we have men, we have transsexuals we have everybody here, gays, straights. There's so many different people here and to label all of us, you know, millions of tweets, and to say we are an anti-women campaign, even though there are strong women in this! I personally don’t identify as a feminist, but no way have I ever been attacked for not being a feminist, I've never attacked anybody who is a feminist. And you know, there are so many strong, powerful voices in GamerGate. All we want to do is play games and enjoy games without being told we are horrendous people for doing so! Is that really too much to ask to enjoy video games without the stigma of being called misogynists - being tarred with hating women?

Camilleri [22:54]: Yesterday Eric Kain joined us and he said "it's troubling how easy it is to blame faceless GamerGate for the industries women problems rather then to address the structural issues". So, I'm curious Jenny, what are the structural issues that need to be addressed?

Bharaj [23:12]: In regards to, sorry…

Camilleri [23:16]: …in regards to the gaming industry.

Bharaj [23:18]: This is exactly what GamerGate is for. Were talking about the relationship that consumers have with the journalism world in gaming. We see publicists and journalists having this corrupt relationship where they have like, you know, incentives … we have publicists giving money to these journalists to get their games, like, a very good score. You know, it's things like this where we do feel there needs to be a restructuralization.

Camilleri [24:01]: I have a question about social justice warriors before we rap up. Georgina, there is something to me that seems odd or off about referring to social justice warriors as a condescending term. It reminds me of Republicans referring to Liberals as "Do-Gooders" or "Bleeding Hearts" rather then addressing the specific criticisms that you have. Referring to someone negatively as a social justice warrior seems that it would do more harm then good for the GamerGate community. Am I wrong in that Georgina?

Young [24:34]: I think that the term social justice warrior came from the term which they used which is "social justice spheres", and so we just put warrior at the end - I think - I didn't come up with that term. I would say that the everyday use of that term is slightly derogatory but at the same time, that a lot of these people are sort of - they are sort of using like misogyny or, you know, racism or terms like this as a sort of a shield instead of talking about the issue which is journalism and journalistic integrity. And, I guess, it is used as a derogatory term. We are not talking about people who are feminists or who are ant-racsims or whatever and fight for these things within gaming. What we are talking about, I guess when we are talking about social justice warriors, are people who are using misogyny, racism, abelism and so on to deflect the true issue of the journalism - and so they just use it as a shield to deflect and that’s what we should be talking about.

Bharaj [25:40]: I'd like to add on to that for all those social justice warriors out there: Before you accuse me of being sexist and [unintelligible], let me remind you that I am a female, I am a feminist and I am an ethnic minority. I suggest you listen and believe to what I am saying right now.

Camilleri [26:01]: Georgina, Jemma, Jennie we have to wrap up. It's been really nice talking to you guys, I wish it wasn't virtual so I could jump in and give you guys a bit of a hug, because I think I lost my cool a little bit for a minute trying to get all of us to talk at one time

Bharaj [26:20]: No you were great!

Young and Morgan [26:22]: Yeah, yeah!

Camilleri [26:23]: Thank you Jennie! Georgina, Jemma, Jennie from the GamerGate community - well not necessarily you Georgina if I remember correctly you are neutral - thanks so much for joining me and having this conversation. And GamerGate as it continues, is something that we all probably will continue to talk about on HuffPost Live or, if not on HuffPost Live, definitely in my Twitter feed which I'll be on in just a couple of minutes. Keep watching HuffPost Live, there is a lot more coming up.


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