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Carroll #155

cybersqyd
May 6th, 2020
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  1. Apr 29 20:08:51 <barredowl> alright, so as always, first impressions?
  2. Apr 29 20:09:16 <red3> Wait, did we get the logs for the first conversation?
  3. Apr 29 20:09:24 <barredowl> not yet, red, i believe
  4. Apr 29 20:09:28 <barredowl> i, for starters, really like the angle at which they approached history in this
  5. Apr 29 20:09:45 <barredowl> it gives a cool little foundation for the origin of the fifthists.
  6. Apr 29 20:11:32 <barredowl> especially the "how we found it" section
  7. Apr 29 20:11:38 <barredowl> it's fairly interesting
  8. Apr 29 20:11:42 <cybersqyd> I've spent the past like, five minutes trying to figure out how I feel about this
  9. Apr 29 20:11:46 <red3> It works a lot better at conveying a kind of creeping anxiety. The way that the information is conveyed makes it feel a lot more believable, and the addition of the red text gives a sense of intrigue that pushes the story forward.
  10. Apr 29 20:12:09 <cybersqyd> I don't think I like it as a whole but I don't really know why?
  11. Apr 29 20:12:24 <barredowl> red3: yeah, it's a lot better than 332 at conveying that
  12. Apr 29 20:12:26 <BlueJones> Agreed, plus its quite a nifty insight into waht Fifthism truly is - a bunch of madmen and obscure cultists without much purpose. IMO this is better use of the format than the previous one
  13. Apr 29 20:12:40 <red3> BlueJones: Definitely.
  14. Apr 29 20:12:46 <Calibri_Bold> BlueJones: Agreed.
  15. Apr 29 20:12:53 <barredowl> agreed on that point
  16. Apr 29 20:12:57 <cybersqyd> It's weird cos I agree with you BlueJones but I still find myself preferring 332
  17. Apr 29 20:13:09 <cybersqyd> I think the mystery feels a touch unsatisfying here?
  18. Apr 29 20:13:35 <cybersqyd> I think, perhaps because it feels too abstracted from like, actual people?
  19. Apr 29 20:13:36 <red3> It kinda feels like it could've done more with the concept, almost like it's dancing around it.
  20. Apr 29 20:13:40 <cybersqyd> yeah
  21. Apr 29 20:14:02 <cybersqyd> It reads like an executive summary of an interesting story
  22. Apr 29 20:14:11 <barredowl> i think it gets more at the heart of the issue than 332 did
  23. Apr 29 20:14:16 <barredowl> like, it's more involved
  24. Apr 29 20:14:54 <cybersqyd> hm
  25. Apr 29 20:15:06 <cybersqyd> yeah it's weird cos it definitely has more meat to it than 332?
  26. Apr 29 20:15:08 <barredowl> i like the use of cognitohazardous elements here
  27. Apr 29 20:15:13 <SharpEmbrace> At least it's successful in creating intrigue, even if it's lacking punch
  28. Apr 29 20:15:20 <cybersqyd> yeah
  29. Apr 29 20:15:27 <red3> I actually like the summarized style a lot more than the most personal take 332 had. It uses the format for what it's good at: retelling an interesting story.
  30. Apr 29 20:15:45 <BlueJones> SharpEmbrace: Its more like a subtle tap than a full on punch
  31. Apr 29 20:15:47 <barredowl> i'm really a fan of the concept of the chicago spirit trying to fight back the influence of fifthism
  32. Apr 29 20:16:23 <SharpEmbrace> It frames the Fifthists in a terrifying way very, very well, imo
  33. Apr 29 20:16:25 <barredowl> there's quite a bit of that
  34. Apr 29 20:16:26 <cybersqyd> yeah; I like what it's trying to do here
  35. Apr 29 20:16:34 <cybersqyd> And like the actual story it's trying to tell, I think
  36. Apr 29 20:16:45 <cybersqyd> But I can't help but feel I'd prefer it as like, a 10 tale series?
  37. Apr 29 20:17:24 <barredowl> hmm
  38. Apr 29 20:17:26 <red3> I think that's just a quirk of the format. It's not really designed to do something so intimate.
  39. Apr 29 20:17:36 <cybersqyd> Yeah, maybe.
  40. Apr 29 20:17:42 <barredowl> yeah, this could do with some elaborating, i feel? but for the most part it does well with the format provided.
  41. Apr 29 20:17:47 <barredowl> red3: agreed
  42. Apr 29 20:17:53 <red3> It accomplishes this a little bit with the RAISA notice at the end, but for the most part, it's just like reading an interesting article on Wikipedia.
  43. Apr 29 20:18:05 <red3> Or, watching something on the History channel.
  44. Apr 29 20:18:25 <barredowl> i get that vibe, kinda
  45. Apr 29 20:18:34 <barredowl> but at some points i get something completely different
  46. Apr 29 20:18:38 * DrMoned went to look up the fifthists as he doesn't quite know what they are and found this (http://www.scp-wiki.net/forum/t-11972042/what-is-fifthism) , Thanks BlueJones you beat me to it.
  47. Apr 29 20:18:40 <barredowl> especially with the red notes
  48. Apr 29 20:18:42 <SharpEmbrace> I also don't feel like it escalates very well?
  49. Apr 29 20:19:02 <barredowl> yeah, i can see that
  50. Apr 29 20:19:06 <SharpEmbrace> It's adding on more to fear, but doesn't really heighten tensions all that much
  51. Apr 29 20:20:04 <barredowl> the tension doesn't escalate, yeah
  52. Apr 29 20:20:21 <barredowl> i think most of the problems i have with these aren't really easily circumventable due to the format, though?
  53. Apr 29 20:20:50 <SharpEmbrace> The final notes don't really do much for me, though
  54. Apr 29 20:20:59 <barredowl> they really don't for me either
  55. Apr 29 20:21:06 <cybersqyd> I kinda like them?
  56. Apr 29 20:21:19 <BlueJones> The final notes do add a bit more into Chappel's thoughts on Fifthism and I like that
  57. Apr 29 20:21:20 <barredowl> it feels like the last line is supposed to be a stinger but it's kinda limp in that regard?
  58. Apr 29 20:21:21 <cybersqyd> The second one in particular feels like it really shines some light on *why* this happened
  59. Apr 29 20:21:40 <red3> 6
  60. Apr 29 20:21:43 <red3> ^
  61. Apr 29 20:21:45 <red3> I can't type.
  62. Apr 29 20:22:01 <SharpEmbrace> they're not /bad/, and serve their function
  63. Apr 29 20:22:01 <barredowl> it gives some good motivation for why this happened, yeah
  64. Apr 29 20:22:18 <SharpEmbrace> but it doesn't unsettle me
  65. Apr 29 20:22:22 <barredowl> cause the spirit is in a tough situation and the fifthists are pretty much what they needed
  66. Apr 29 20:22:32 <barredowl> yeah, i got the information but not the emotions too well?
  67. Apr 29 20:22:36 <cybersqyd> yeah but also I'm not sure they're meant to?
  68. Apr 29 20:22:49 <barredowl> hmm.
  69. Apr 29 20:22:50 <cybersqyd> iunno. I feel super mixed about this one in a non-specific way.
  70. Apr 29 20:23:09 <red3> I feel like it would've escalated more smoothly if it focused specifically on the events that were caused by CS working with the Fifthists, rather than just describing how weird they are and the circumstances that got CS to work with them.
  71. Apr 29 20:23:15 <cybersqyd> yeah
  72. Apr 29 20:23:19 <SharpEmbrace> it doesn't have a strong impact on me, but there are some things it definitely did right
  73. Apr 29 20:23:33 <SharpEmbrace> the red text gets a bit repetitive, imo
  74. Apr 29 20:23:44 <red3> The note at the end does this a little bit, but the implication would've hit a lot harder if there was a clear path of crazy stuff happening.
  75. Apr 29 20:24:05 <cybersqyd> yeah
  76. Apr 29 20:24:28 <barredowl> mm, yeah
  77. Apr 29 20:24:29 <cybersqyd> I think the red text at the start revealing that chappell is gone kinda ruins the punch of the notes at the end
  78. Apr 29 20:24:48 <SharpEmbrace> definitely
  79. Apr 29 20:24:50 <barredowl> yep, it kinda really does that
  80. Apr 29 20:25:08 <SharpEmbrace> it's confirming what we've already been told
  81. Apr 29 20:25:19 <cybersqyd> the problem is, without the red text at the start, the conceit of the red text falls apart
  82. Apr 29 20:25:23 <cybersqyd> cos it's got to say that
  83. Apr 29 20:25:33 <red3> Yeah, it acts as a hook.
  84. Apr 29 20:25:38 <barredowl> yep
  85. Apr 29 20:25:58 <SharpEmbrace> i'd say change it, rather than remove it
  86. Apr 29 20:26:10 <cybersqyd> Well, partially that; but also the red text is meant as a warning? And without a warning about Chappell at the start, an in-universe reader wouldn't know to be aware?
  87. Apr 29 20:26:39 <SharpEmbrace> I feel like a more general warning would work
  88. Apr 29 20:27:04 <SharpEmbrace> the foreshadowing wouldn't be blatant to the point of it being problematic
  89. Apr 29 20:27:25 <cybersqyd> mm I don't know, I think you'd need to specify not to trust Chappell for the in-universe text to feel right?
  90. Apr 29 20:27:35 <red3> It also gives some stake to this. A general warning would only really serve to just show how horrifying this group is, and doesn't give any emotional investment to the article. By including Chappell, the reader actually feels invested.
  91. Apr 29 20:28:05 <red3> That's kinda the trap that 332 fell into.
  92. Apr 29 20:28:15 * SharpEmbrace knows nothing about Chappell so i'm uninvested in his loss
  93. Apr 29 20:28:26 <barredowl> red3: i agree. without chappell, there's not really a character to be invested in?
  94. Apr 29 20:29:05 <red3> It at least applies the effect to a person, rather than just a general group of "snitches".
  95. Apr 29 20:29:08 <SharpEmbrace> Redtextman's panicked tone gets me invested a little tho
  96. Apr 29 20:29:16 <cybersqyd> what do you think about the blackboxing?
  97. Apr 29 20:29:22 <cybersqyd> specifically what's hidden by it?
  98. Apr 29 20:29:24 <barredowl> i think it's a nice gimmick.
  99. Apr 29 20:29:40 <SharpEmbrace> I like it
  100. Apr 29 20:29:41 <barredowl> it's kinda interesting to see a mix between spirit lingo and fifthist content.
  101. Apr 29 20:29:54 <SharpEmbrace> > Bigger than an eye can see, greater than an ear could hear, outstripping all senses. Like nerves, glowing black and white, blue and pink, a colourless shade of green.
  102. Apr 29 20:30:01 <SharpEmbrace> this line is particularly potent for me.
  103. Apr 29 20:30:15 <cybersqyd> See to me, it kinda feels a little like it could've just been regular black boxes without losing much?
  104. Apr 29 20:30:38 <barredowl> i don't think that would work for me, see.
  105. Apr 29 20:30:43 <DrMoned> I think either the red text or blackboxes
  106. Apr 29 20:30:45 <red3> Some of the lines are a little blunt, but it does its job.
  107. Apr 29 20:30:46 <DrMoned> both seems unneeded
  108. Apr 29 20:31:02 <SharpEmbrace> The prose style for this line contrasts with the rest of the piece, and that works really well
  109. Apr 29 20:31:34 <cybersqyd> See, I think the second one does more but *shrugs*
  110. Apr 29 20:31:36 <barredowl> yeah, i agree, it gives you a feeling of "wait hold the fuck up"
  111. Apr 29 20:31:56 <red3> It does keep the article interesting by constantly reminding the reader of the Fifthist influences, though.
  112. Apr 29 20:32:07 <barredowl> yep
  113. Apr 29 20:32:08 <cybersqyd> I guess?
  114. Apr 29 20:32:16 <red3> Just having the red text would become a little boring, since all the guy can say is "Oh my god, don't read this, it'll make you crazy".
  115. Apr 29 20:32:30 <SharpEmbrace> ^
  116. Apr 29 20:32:31 <cybersqyd> Yeah, I think you need either both or neither
  117. Apr 29 20:32:48 <red3> They complement each other really well.
  118. Apr 29 20:32:49 <cybersqyd> And I loosely think both is better but that they could've been utilised more effectively
  119. Apr 29 20:33:23 <SharpEmbrace> same
  120. Apr 29 20:33:36 <barredowl> agreed
  121. Apr 29 20:33:41 <barredowl> hmm
  122. Apr 29 20:33:56 <DrMoned> I would say only use blackboxes
  123. Apr 29 20:33:58 <SharpEmbrace> also
  124. Apr 29 20:33:58 <barredowl> i think i liked this more than 332, although there definitely is a lot of wiggle room for telling a better story here
  125. Apr 29 20:34:02 <DrMoned> but ones that can be highlighted
  126. Apr 29 20:34:03 <SharpEmbrace> what are the Lunatics?
  127. Apr 29 20:34:11 <DrMoned> Fifthists Sharp
  128. Apr 29 20:34:12 <SharpEmbrace> is this some lore i'm missing
  129. Apr 29 20:34:13 <DrMoned> I believe
  130. Apr 29 20:34:14 <barredowl> the fifthists
  131. Apr 29 20:34:16 <red3> Those that went crazy after listening to the Fifthists.
  132. Apr 29 20:34:23 <BlueJones> SharpEmbrace: That's what the CS calls the Fifthists
  133. Apr 29 20:34:35 <red3> It's not really a Fifthist term, but more just a general designation for crazy people.
  134. Apr 29 20:34:46 <SharpEmbrace> so why are they also called fifthists?
  135. Apr 29 20:35:12 <SharpEmbrace> red3: But then what's with the capital L?
  136. Apr 29 20:35:24 <barredowl> just a title, i think
  137. Apr 29 20:35:30 <red3> The Fifthists aren't the Lunatics, they're two separate types. Fifthists spread the religion and Lunatics are just those that grew crazy because of it.
  138. Apr 29 20:35:31 <barredowl> to distinguish it from lunatics
  139. Apr 29 20:35:33 <DrMoned> fifthists worship giant starfish thing
  140. Apr 29 20:35:36 <barredowl> ah
  141. Apr 29 20:35:47 <red3> The great god Patrick Star.
  142. Apr 29 20:35:58 <cybersqyd> They're called fifthists in the main text to emphasise the friendliness; and Lunatics in the red text to emphasise the adversarial change
  143. Apr 29 20:36:30 <SharpEmbrace> They're called Lunatics in the original too
  144. Apr 29 20:36:38 <cybersqyd> yeah which...i think doesn't work
  145. Apr 29 20:36:43 <red3> > The deeper you go the more fucked up it gets, and once you're in too deep you'll come to find you're no longer human. These are the Lunatics.
  146. Apr 29 20:36:43 <SharpEmbrace> yeah
  147. Apr 29 20:36:54 <SharpEmbrace> super, super missed opportunity there
  148. Apr 29 20:37:14 <red3> How was that a missed opportunity?
  149. Apr 29 20:37:17 <barredowl> so do you think we should wrap this one up, or is there something big you think we need to discuss further?
  150. Apr 29 20:37:18 <SharpEmbrace> more contrast between the two texts would make it work better
  151. Apr 29 20:37:36 <red3> Ah.
  152. Apr 29 20:37:38 <SharpEmbrace> and Fifthist/Lunatic is a good way of encapsulating that
  153. Apr 29 20:38:15 <cybersqyd> I think, overall, I'm not really a fan of this format
  154. Apr 29 20:38:25 <cybersqyd> 'this format' as in 'CS formats'
  155. Apr 29 20:38:32 <barredowl> yeah, this format definitely restricts a lot of storytelling i feel
  156. Apr 29 20:38:52 <SharpEmbrace> this is a lot better than the first one, imo
  157. Apr 29 20:39:03 <cybersqyd> tbf, restricting storytelling is the point of a goi format imo
  158. Apr 29 20:39:04 <barredowl> probably because it's newer
  159. Apr 29 20:39:07 <red3> It's very situational, but I don't think it really restricts storytelling as much as it strips it down to the bare bones.
  160. Apr 29 20:39:11 <barredowl> that way it could get more footing
  161. Apr 29 20:39:15 <cybersqyd> but i think it does it too much?
  162. Apr 29 20:39:26 <barredowl> yep, agreed there.
  163. Apr 29 20:39:38 <red3> You can't just do a simple anomaly and expect to carry the article on the anomaly's story, it's gotta be interesting.
  164. Apr 29 20:39:46 <barredowl> i would say this was a tentative upvote from me
  165. Apr 29 20:40:03 <cybersqyd> This is a novote from me largely cos it just didn't quite click for me, I think
  166. Apr 29 20:40:19 <barredowl> yeah, i can sympathize with that
  167. Apr 29 20:40:22 <red3> This is a medium/hard upvote. It scratches a really particular itch for me.
  168. Apr 29 20:40:23 <barredowl> but i still like thsi
  169. Apr 29 20:40:25 <barredowl> *this
  170. Apr 29 20:40:28 <SharpEmbrace> novote because this is really close to being good for me
  171. Apr 29 20:40:40 <BlueJones> I'd upvote it simply cause it gives us a better insight into the Fifthist religion and Chappel's profile/mindset
  172. Apr 29 20:40:48 <barredowl> i'm not comfortable giving it a downvote, and i'm not giving it a novote by principle
  173. Apr 29 20:40:55 <barredowl> BlueJones: yea
  174. Apr 29 20:41:07 <SharpEmbrace> it does interesting things with fifthism
  175. Apr 29 20:41:18 <red3> I keep finding parallels to Parawatch in the way that the story has to be told, but Parawatch seems to be able to get more intimate with the subject.
  176. Apr 29 20:41:43 <cybersqyd> I think because parawatch is less restrictive on how the story is told; and also like, a lot more informal?
  177. Apr 29 20:42:10 <cybersqyd> Like, with parawatch you can really just have a main character shitpost their way into hell
  178. Apr 29 20:42:30 <SharpEmbrace> yes, this is lacking in characters
  179. Apr 29 20:42:35 <red3> Well, both formats only really work if it's recounting a story. The difference is that Parawatch is just one person telling it from their perspective while CS is a document which is expected to be read and understood by a lot of people.
  180. Apr 29 20:42:40 <barredowl> that's kinda a problem with that one
  181. Apr 29 20:42:42 <cybersqyd> yeah
  182. Apr 29 20:42:45 <barredowl> it's more story-driven than people-driven
  183. Apr 29 20:42:57 <SharpEmbrace> chappell doesn't actually have much about him
  184. Apr 29 20:43:12 <barredowl> and i don't really think the people parts of this format were executed well?
  185. Apr 29 20:43:14 <barredowl> idk
  186. Apr 29 20:43:26 <red3> They do seem to be a bit two-dimensional with their only focus being money and power.
  187. Apr 29 20:43:39 <cybersqyd> the Chicago Spirit?
  188. Apr 29 20:43:45 <red3> Chappell.
  189. Apr 29 20:43:57 <cybersqyd> hm yeah
  190. Apr 29 20:44:31 <cybersqyd> I think, tbf, this is perhaps not a good characterisation of him? In the sense that it's too...abstracted away from him actually being allowed space to do things as a character
  191. Apr 29 20:44:53 <SharpEmbrace> yeah
  192. Apr 29 20:45:02 <SharpEmbrace> we don't get a sense of change for him
  193. Apr 29 20:45:19 <SharpEmbrace> just, he's indoctrinated now
  194. Apr 29 20:45:30 <barredowl> hmm.
  195. Apr 29 20:45:45 <red3> I'm also not sure whether this Chappell is meant to be indoctrinated or not. They don't show the signs that a person's indoctrinated like the redacted text.
  196. Apr 29 20:45:58 <barredowl> that's pretty much it from me for this. it's more interesting, but it's still constrained by the format of the chicago spirit
  197. Apr 29 20:46:16 <SharpEmbrace> having Chappell use the cognitohazard would be a nice note to end on
  198. Apr 29 20:46:26 <red3> Yeah.
  199. Apr 29 20:46:29 <cybersqyd> ehhh
  200. Apr 29 20:46:36 <cybersqyd> the problem is it'd have to be unredacted
  201. Apr 29 20:46:41 <BlueJones> Uh after this is over I'd like to put in a suggestion for a series that I've seen a bit off for a review after the next week or so. When we're done reading for today of course if that's okay with you guys
  202. Apr 29 20:47:02 <barredowl> i think we're done. are we?
  203. Apr 29 20:47:05 <red3> I think we're just about done with our final thoughts.
  204. Apr 29 20:47:26 <barredowl> hmm, alright
  205. Apr 29 20:47:27 <cybersqyd> I don't have much else to add
  206. Apr 29 20:47:34 <barredowl> i think that'll be it for reading from chicago spirit
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