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- vaccinations
- Rick Cooper
- Message 1 of 25 , May 27 2:54 PM[-- Image: Frame1 --]
- View Source
- Is there a source for DPT singles?
- Rick Cooper
- New Canaan
- Dr Kendra Becker
- Message 2 of 25 , May 27 3:14 PM[-- Image: Frame2 --]
- View Source
- not to the best of my knowledge.....you can get DT but that is
- only
- for adults I believe
- if you are looking for single DOSE vials there are a number of
- sources
- I use Sanofi Pasteur (DTaP/ daptcel for kids)
- Kendra Becker ND, APRN, BC
- Mystic, CT
- DoctorEm@aol.com
- Message 3 of 25 , May 29 6:00 AM[-- Image:
- yui_3_15_0_1_1401386138671_1073 --]
- View Source
- Aventis is recently re-issuing tetanus alone. Not cheap: about
- $24 per dose. It is not preserved with mercury, but does have a
- small amount of aluminum. It is supposedly marketed for those
- over age 7 but it's the exact same thing as in the pediatric
- DPT so most pediatricians I've talked to about this are
- completely comfortable using the single T in babies.
- Cheers,
- Emily Kane ND LAc
- Juneau AK
- www.DrEmilyKane.com
- kalliphillips
- Message 4 of 25 , May 29 3:26 PM[-- Image: Frame3 --]
- View Source
- It's my understanding that the rates of sero-conversion are not
- as high with first vaccination
- to tetanus alone. This is why it is combined with diphtheria and
- pertussis. The additive
- effect of immune response to D & T increases the immune response
- to tetanus. Running a
- titer is recommended to be sure of conversion if tetanus is
- given alone.
- This is from the outer reaches of my memory of immunology, and I
- don't have my notes to
- consult, so I beg pardon if I'm mis-remembering.
- Kalli Phillips ND
- NCNM
- rainy Eugene, Oregon
- Kristin Becker, ND
- Message 5 of 25 , May 29 6:53 PM[-- Image: Frame4 --]
- View Source
- Any ideas on how to help the body/liver excrete the aluminum
- after a
- vaccination? Liver support? Bentonite? Hydrotherapy? Kristin
- Becker, St Paul MN
- Winston Cardwell
- Message 6 of 25 , May 29 9:55 PM[-- Image: Frame5 --]
- View Source
- Kristen,
- For that purpose, I would consider Malic acid – accding to David
- Quigg at Doctors Data there is some new research around malic
- acid combined with magnesium (possibly human studies) I came up
- with this in a quick pubmed search; not sure how much it helps.
- Biol Trace Elem Res. 2007 Winter;120(1-3):257-63.
- Reduction of aluminum toxicity by 2-isopropylmalic acid in the
- budding yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae.
- Suzuki T, Tamura S, Nakanishi H, Tashiro M, Nishizawa
- NK, Yoshimura E.
- Department of Applied Biological Chemistry, School of
- Agricultural and Life Sciences, The University of Tokyo, Yayoi,
- Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo 113-5687, Japan .
- The budding yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae secretes
- 2-isopropylmalic acid (2-iPMA), an intermediate in leucine
- biosynthesis. Because 2-iPMA binds Al(III) in the culture
- medium, it is thought to reduce toxicity by Al(III). The
- effects of 2-iPMA and malic acid (MA) on Al toxicity were
- investigated in a medium with a low pH and low concentrations
- of phosphates and magnesium. The reduction in the growth of S.
- cerevisiae observed in the presence of 100 muM Al(III) ions was
- relieved more by the addition of 1.0 mM 2-iPMA than by 1.0 mM
- MA, indicating that 2-iPMA possesses superior Al(III)-ion
- detoxification ability. Investigations using the wild type and
- the deltaleu4 and deltaleu9 mutant strains indicated that
- secretion of a sufficient level of 2-iPMA was required to
- enhance the Al tolerance. It is thought that 2-iPMA secreted
- from the yeast cells chelates Al ions and prevents them from
- entering the cells, resulting in Al tolerance.
- 1: J Cell Biochem. 2004 Dec 15;93(6):1267-71.
- Aluminum decreases the glutathione regeneration by the
- inhibition of NADP-isocitrate dehydrogenase in mitochondria.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Murakami K, Yoshino M.
- Department of Biochemistry, Aichi Medical University School of
- Medicine, Nagakute, Aichi 480-1195, Japan .
- Effect of aluminum on the NADPH supply and glutathione
- regeneration in mitochondria was analyzed. Reduced glutathione
- acted as a principal scavenger of reactive oxygen species in
- mitochondria. Aluminum inhibited the regeneration of
- glutathione from the oxidized form, and the effect was due to
- the inhibition of NADP-isocitrate dehydrogenase the only enzyme
- supplying NADPH in mitochondria. In cytosol, aluminum inhibited
- the glutathione regeneration dependent on NADPH supply by malic
- enzyme and NADP-isocitrate dehydrogenase, but did not affect the
- glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase dependent glutathione
- formation. Aluminum can cause oxidative damage on cellular
- biological processes by inhibiting glutathione regeneration
- through the inhibition of NADPH supply in mitochondria, but
- only a little inhibitory effect on the glutathione generation
- in cytosol. Copyright 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
- Winston Cardwell N.D., L.Ac.
- Spherios Medical Centers
- 5755 North Point Parkway
- Suite 74
- Alpharetta, Georgia 30022
- (678) 218-4230
- (678) 218-4281 fax
- www.rethinkyourhealth.com
- Wendy Hodsdon
- Message 7 of 25 , May 30 4:08 AM[-- Image: Frame6 --]
- View Source
- I thought that DPT was not available as singles because the
- immunogenicity of DPT is dependent on Pertussis. In other
- words,
- pertussis acts as an adjuvant for Diphtheria and Tetanus. A
- significantly smaller response happens in the absence of
- Pertusses.
- That is what my notes say from the seminar "the vaccine
- Balancing act"
- that Zwickey and Andrews gave in November of 2005.
- I hope that helps -
- Wendy Hodsdon, ND
- www.portlandalternativemedicine.com
- DoctorEm@aol.com
- Message 8 of 25 , May 30 4:13 AM[-- Image: Frame7 --]
- View Source
- Hi Wendy,
- That's interesting -- I never heard of that. The vaccines used
- to be available singly, and again recently as I mentioned in
- the previous post Aventis is marketing "preservative free"
- Tetanus alone which actually is preserved with a small amount
- of aluminum.
- Emily Kane ND LAc
- Juneau AK
- www.DrEmilyKane.com
- Dr. Virginia Oram
- Message 9 of 25 , May 30 4:42 AM[-- Image: Frame8 --]
- View Source
- Tetanus is definitely available singly. My colleague at my
- office uses it all the time. It is the only vaccine he gives.
- Multi-dose vials always have a preservative - mercury or
- aluminum. I don't think the aluminum is any better. If one
- choses to vaccinate, the single vaccines with no preservatives
- are best, I believe. I think they are available, it is more of
- a question of whether their MD is willing to order the single
- dose vial (more expensive & possibly a hassle for them to
- order).
- Sanofi Pasteur makes our tetanus vaccines.
- Virginia Oram, ND
- virginia@...
- 400 East 2nd Avenue, Suite 105
- Eugene, Oregon 97401
- 541.343.2384 phone
- 541.485.3602 fax
- www.DrOram.com
- Vibrant health is a Natural Path Away!
- kimberlylandino
- Message 10 of 25 , Mar 17, 2011[-- Image: Frame9 --]
- View Source
- Hello Fellow NDs-
- I have a patient who is choosing to vaccinate her baby ( I wish
- she wouldn't...) who already received the HepB after birth last
- week and she would like for her baby to receive less
- vaccinations at one time in the near future.
- Any NDs in the Phoenix area who can refer me to an MD who gives
- less vaccinations at once would be helpful.
- Thanks!
- Kimberly Landino, ND
- Tempe, AZ
- drdeanna
- Message 11 of 25 , Mar 30[-- Image: Frame10 --]
- View Source
- Hi All,
- With the recent outbreaks of measles in NY and California, I am
- wondering what people are suggesting to their patients as far
- as vaccinations. I have always been supportive of not
- vaccinating, but last summer when my daughter had pertussis, I
- started questioning it. If someone gets measles and ends up
- with encephalitis, the consequences of that can be life long.
- 30% of measles cases develop complications. (In the recent
- outbreak in California, about 1/3 ended up in the hospital)
- What about if you end up in the hospital from measles and then
- develop another infection. These infections are all getting
- more virulent. They are mutating, not only due to vaccinating,
- but due to GMOs and toxins in the environment. There are no
- ways to get away from these things. Also, living in lyme
- country, so many have a weakened immune system due to lyme and
- associated diseases and don't know it. Anyway, just wanted to
- hear other thoughts.
- Deanna Berman, ND, CM
- Ithaca, NY
- greendoc61
- Message 12 of 25 , Mar 30[-- Image: Frame11 --]
- View Source
- HI Dr. Deanna,
- I think this is a topic we need to have a serious
- profession-wide discussion about. I was just talking with it
- about a colleague about starting a thread on natchat. I was a
- geolopgy major before going to ND school and have been peak oil
- aware for going on 30 years now. I strongly believe the future
- will not be like the past: we are facing staggering economic,
- environmental and energy challenges. There is even a small
- movement amongst allopaths who recognize these threats to
- conventional medicine. You can educate yourself here at these
- websites;
- www.peakprosperity.com (watch the crash course)
- or http://www.postpeakmedicine.com/.
- Long story short: we can no longer rely on herd immunity to
- protect our unvaccinated children. And it is hard to find wild
- cases to expose children to and an appropriate time so they can
- have life long immunity. We have a generation of mothers who,
- even if they breastfed, do not have high Ab titers as they
- never had the diseases. I think our future will see a
- breakdown of current vaccine practices and these now uncommon
- UCD's will become "usual" again. I choose to recently have my
- 15 year old son vaccinated with MMR.
- I was hoping before now we could expose him to a case and he
- could have the disease, but no such luck. Who knows what kind
- of medical care will be available 20 years from now? And these
- childhood diseases can be more devastating as an adult. I also
- had him vaccinated with DPT several years back when we had an
- outbreak of pertussis. Our family regularly associated with
- friends with newborn infants and I felt morally and ethically
- moved to not be the weak link that could possibly transmit
- pertussis to another.
- Mind you, my son got no vaccinations for the first 5 years of
- his life and was breastfed 4 years. I had measles, mumps,
- rubella and chickenpox as a kid in the 60s. He had chickenpox
- when he was 6, so covered there. We also had him vaccinated for
- polio at 7 when we were doing some international travel and
- there was the possibility of encountering wild polio. He is
- currently healthy as a horse. I just felt it would be
- irresponsible to send him out in to an uncertain future without
- giving him some chance of immunity, even if imperfect, but tried
- to do it so his immune system could handle in an appropriate way
- rather than follow the CDC schedule.
- I would love to hear what other NDs with kids are doing, as well
- as for patients in their practice. I would also love to start a
- dialogue about peak medicine, but that is another thread.
- Looking forward to hearing all the wisdom out there, this is
- just the path I have negotiated so far.
- Claire Green, ND
- Santa Rosa, CA
- Kristin Cox
- Message 13 of 25 , Mar 31[-- Image: Frame12 --]
- View Source
- I would appreciate a constructive discussion about this, though
- I know there are strong feelings on both sides. My daughter is
- 10 years old. She was breast fed for 2.5 years and is very
- healthy. She had not taken an antibiotic until this winter
- when I went out of town and she got Pertussis. It was no big
- deal at all for her, and now she has permanent immunity (of
- course, I know that I am obligated to keep her away from more
- vulnerable infants). Most of her school classroom had the same
- cough, though only the unvaccinated children were tested for
- Pertussis.
- My intention was not that she benefit from herd immunity and be
- protected from getting these illness'. I wanted her to get
- these illness' as a healthy young child when they would affect
- her less. Though it is difficult to contract these illness'
- these days. I tried several times to inoculate her with
- varicella and the most I got was one pock. I hope she has had
- the chickenpox and is now immune, but I am not convinced.
- Now that she is 10 and hasn't had most of these illness', do I
- vaccinate her now, or not? Her pediatrician recommended
- reading Dr. Sears vaccine book and I did. It actually
- convinced me not to vaccinate her since the risks of her
- getting these illness are so small now. I did learn something
- that concerned me and that was that giving the MMR after
- puberty significantly increases risk for RA. So if you are
- going to vaccinate for MMR it should be done at age 10, before
- puberty.
- If you haven't read An Epidemic of Absence, by Moises
- Velasquez-Manoff, you should. It doesn't address vaccine
- preventable illness and vaccines as much as parasites and other
- environmental bacteria, but this is my main concern with
- vaccines is the unintended, long-term consequences of not
- contracting these infections as children.
- Thank you.
- Kristin Cox
- Juneau, AK
- Emily Kane
- Message 14 of 25 , Mar 31[-- Image: Frame13 --]
- View Source
- Kristin
- I vaccinated Katherine with MMR mostly so she could not possibly
- expose a future conception to Rubella, before she menstruated.
- She also got pertussis the disease 2 years ago and the most
- helpful remedy, though her cough did last 100 days, was the
- salmon DNA Mucolyxir Torrey Smith wrote into NatChat about. I
- also gave Katherine the Gardasil series after much deliberation
- because Rick Marnelli died of HPV throat cancer and Pam Snider
- and John Weeks both nearly died of it. Before we travelled to
- Europe together for the first time when she was 11 I gave her
- polio vaccine. She has also had tetanus alone at age 18 months
- and a booster at age 11. That's it. To
- www.DrEmilyKane.com
- www.naturopathic.org
- "Let your highest aspiration organize your life."
- Emily Kane
- Message 15 of 25 , Apr 1[-- Image: Frame14 --]
- View Source
- Sorry sent before signing and trimming
- Emily Kane ND
- just returning from PRP/ozone training :)
- www.DrEmilyKane.com
- www.naturopathic.org
- "Let your highest aspiration organize your life."
- Michelle Simon
- Message 16 of 25 , Apr 1[-- Image: Frame15 --]
- View Source
- Hi Clare,
- I appreciate your position. The AANP Scientific Affairs
- Committee has been discussing this topic for the past year.
- There is a large evidence base and vaccination technology is
- always changing as is epidemiology data and our understanding
- of the immune system. My question to you, and others, is what
- would be the best venue for a profession wide discussion on
- vaccination? Some ideas are a conference session, a
- preconference summit on the topic, several online continuing
- education modules, etc. What do you think would best serve us
- all?
- Thanks for your input on this important topic.
- Regards,
- Michelle
- Michelle A Simon PhD ND
- drdeanna
- Message 17 of 25 , Apr 1[-- Image: Frame16 --]
- View Source
- It would be great if we could reach as many people as possible.
- What if we had a webinar series with a couple of speakers and
- then an online discussion after. This way it would all be
- recorded and if people were not aware of it happening, but want
- to join in or read after it already happened, that would be
- possible. We could set up a yahoo group just for vaccination
- discussions if there was enough interest. We could also expand
- to discussions of immune system insults due to environmental
- toxins, not just vaccinations and the increase in antibiotic
- resistant infections.
- Deanna Berman, ND, CM
- Ithaca, NY
- Amanda Richardson-Meyer
- Message 18 of 25 , Apr 1[-- Image:
- yui_3_15_0_1_1401386138671_1332 --]
- View Source
- Kristin,
- How about checking her titers?
- Amanda Richardons-Meyer, ND
- Corvallis Naturopathic
- Corvallis, OR
- Eric Blake
- Message 19 of 25 , Apr 1[-- Image: Frame17 --]
- View Source
- That is a great question Michelle and a very good idea for such
- a very complicated topic
- I wouldn't think this forum is the place for organized evolution
- of a policy or position. Great place for chatting and hashing
- through experience and ideas, but not for more formal positions
- to develop. It is a topic that we need to evaluate in a larger
- and more meaningful context that has a variety of positions
- that need be represented. It certainly is not an either /or
- ideological position for a lot of us anymore
- Dr. Eric Blake
- Naturopathic Physician and Diplomate of Acupuncture
- J. Claire Green
- Message 20 of 25 , Apr 1[-- Image: Frame18 --]
- View Source
- I think Natchat/yahoo group not an ideal forum for this topic.
- I do think a webinar (with pharmacy CME's!) probably the best
- forum.
- I did a search on pubmed and found conflicting research..isn't
- that always the case!
- fully vaccinated as children males get orchitis
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24655811
- recently vaccinated males get orchitis
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20085834
- unvaccinated male adolescents makes get orchitis
- http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100330082722.htm
- I would be interested in how ABO types effect immunity or
- increase risk of complications.
- Also, another topic I hope the AANP is looking into is the
- general topic of Peak Medicine or the future of medicine in an
- energy constrained world where standards of care decline.
- J. Claire Green, N.D.
- greendoc61@...
- NPI #1679916084
- California License #ND-215
- 707-490-7053 cell
- 707-544-1362 home
- Santa Rosa, CA 95404
- drdougcutler
- Message 21 of 25 , Apr 2[-- Image: Frame19 --]
- View Source
- I agree with Eric.
- Is the goal of the AANP to change the current position on
- vaccines? And other than quackwatch.org is there another source
- for the position?
- Regards,
- Doug Cutler, ND
- Southfield, MI
- O: 248-663-0165
- www.cutlerintegrativemedicine.com
- jacobschor
- Message 22 of 25 , Apr 2[-- Image: Frame20 --]
- View Source
- Doug,
- I can't speak for the entire AANP board but from my corner of
- the universe, it appears that many of the thoughts regarding
- vaccines I left school with were formulated in the late 1800s
- and somehow preserved and handed down to us intact. I recently
- wrote a short review for the Townsend Letter (I should check if
- it's been printed yet, i've got it posted on our clinic website
- though and will find the link:
- http://denvernaturopathic.com/on-specificeffectsofvaccines.htm )
- on the non-specific effects of vaccinations. I won't detail
- that information here, but the bottom line is the action of
- vaccines is complex and we have done a lousy job of keeping up
- with the data. My knee-jerk reaction is to distrust them, to
- see the entire agenda as a conspiracy and not believe anything
- I'm told or read. Yet in writing this article I was surprised
- by some of the fringe benefits vaccinations trigger in immune
- function and suspect we should be taking advantage of them
- rather than avoiding some of them.
- I think it's time that we look at the topic afresh and if
- Michelle Simon et al can provide some decent up to date
- information, I'd like to get some new perspective on the topic.
- I think as everyone has said so far that nat-chat isn't the
- correct forum. I too am thinking of webinar in combination
- with print articles in NMJ (I'm forever looking for material)
- that gives us Rx CE (I'm always looking even harder to get
- those stupid Rx hours.).
- drdougcutler
- Message 23 of 25 , Apr 3[-- Image:
- yui_3_15_0_1_1401386138671_1422 --]
- View Source
- Thanks Jacob, I always enjoy your reads and perspective.
- So correct me if I am wrong, it sounds like the AANP is indeed
- looking to come up with a new/updated position on vaccines? If
- webinars and articles will be the preferred route for that
- goal, maybe we can continue to add the possible topics on
- NatChat with both sides of the debate?
- Personally, I would like to see a topic challenging the entire
- concept of vaccines without dismissing it as a "conspiracy".
- With that challenge, facts laid out that can obviously be
- debated as with any study, expert opinion, etc. But at least
- with the final goal (of that challenge) in not giving vaccines
- an automatic free pass. To question what we know and don't know
- and if we really don't know what we claim to know. To look at
- each individual ingredient (thimerosal, aluminum, formaldehyde,
- MSG, phenoxyethanol, antibiotics, etc) and why as NDs we would
- never allow these toxic ingredients to be in patient's
- supplements, food and water - yet we allow them in vaccines? To
- discuss why this is so and why generally, there aren't concerns
- with these toxic ingredients?
- To discuss how we as NDs and as a population see a news story
- about a scary outbreak (which really isn't an outbreak) and
- then come on NatChat wondering what to do about it. To look at
- ways to treat childhood diseases with naturopathic medicine
- when needed. To look at ways to improve vaccines which really
- are outdated and archaic with the above toxic ingredients and
- look for safer alternatives that will help "stimulate" the
- immune response or just continue to add a booster to a booster
- to a booster. To discuss if "first do no harm" is more
- important than "prevention" or vice versa and if vaccines
- really even fit in those categories.
- And lastly, I would like to see a part of the topic to properly
- train docs (who vaccinate) on how they should prepare their
- patients for the above toxic ingredients by first addressing
- genetic polymorphisms, nutritional deficiencies, food
- allergies/sensitivities and parent's toxic burden before
- conception. That way, I won't have to continue to see vaccine
- injured patients who are very difficult in recovering and
- supposedly don't exist in our society.
- Regards,
- Doug Cutler, ND
- Southfield, MI
- O: 248-663-0165
- www.cutlerintegrativemedicine.com
- Kristin Cox
- Message 24 of 25 , Apr 5[-- Image: Frame21 --]
- View Source
- Emily, MMR is the one that I think of for my daughter, but then
- I think that her chances of getting RA (increased risk from MMR
- vaccine) is probably better than getting MMR while she's
- pregnant (in the US).
- Also, don't you need Pertussis to make the diptheria and tetanus
- effective?
- I have considered checking her titers. I'll do it eventually
- and before vaccinating her for varicella.
- Kristin Cox
- Juneau, AK
- Anne Van Couvering
- Message 25 of 25 , Apr 5[-- Image: Frame22 --]
- View Source
- nicely said, Doug.
- Anne Van Couvering, ND, LMT, CNS
- (917) 653-7406
- annevanc@...
- "It's only work if you'd rather be doing something else." -
- Abigail Van Buren (Dear Abby)
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