Code Chat

a guest Jun 29th, 2012 201 Never
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  1. [19:04:17] <DeadSuperHero> Okay, let's get started! :)
  2. [19:04:24] <DeadSuperHero> How's everyone doing this week?
  3. [19:04:35] <raven24> almost holidays
  4. [19:04:39] <raven24> ;)
  5. [19:04:47] <DeadSuperHero> Sweet!
  6. [19:04:50] <maxwell> what holiday?
  7. [19:05:09] <DeadSuperHero> half-Christmas?
  8. [19:05:11] <raven24> university summer
  9. [19:05:15] <SlackerD|2> good
  10. [19:05:16] <maxwell> oh nice
  11. [19:05:40] <DeadSuperHero> So I wanted to bring up a few community-related announcements first.
  12. [19:06:10] <DeadSuperHero> First and foremost, our community contributor and podmin Justin Thomas is continuing his work on Scrypto, which is a Rails engine for encryption in Diaspora.
  13. [19:06:19] <maxwell> or actually
  14. [19:06:29] <maxwell> scripto can be used in any rails app
  15. [19:06:35] <DeadSuperHero> Right.
  16. [19:06:39] <maxwell> thats why its cool it is an engine
  17. [19:06:47] <DeadSuperHero> But he's looking for testers over at his pod at
  18. [19:07:00] <SlackerD|2> I'll check that out
  19. [19:07:10] <DeadSuperHero> We're always looking to help a brotha out, and his work is really cool.
  20. [19:07:46] <SlackerD|2> ummm
  21. [19:07:48] <maxwell> yeah, if you are starting any new rails projects
  22. [19:07:55] <SlackerD|2> not sure what is going on with his server
  23. [19:07:59] <maxwell> you should try integrating it
  24. [19:08:06] <SlackerD|2> I'm getting a lengthy page about PHP
  25. [19:08:14] <maxwell> :P
  26. [19:08:22] <DeadSuperHero> my bad.
  27. [19:08:22] <SlackerD|2> "System Linux 2.6.18-308.8.2.el5 #1 SMP Tue Jun 12 09:58:12 EDT 2012 x86_64"
  28. [19:08:29] <DeadSuperHero> Silly subdomains.
  29. [19:08:37] <SlackerD|2> lol
  30. [19:09:03] <maxwell> nice catch
  31. [19:09:06] <DeadSuperHero> But if you're working on integrating your own Rails project with the D* codebase, let us know about it!
  32. [19:09:37] <DeadSuperHero> Lots of cool little projects like Scrypto have an opportunity to branch out, grow, and get used by other Rails projects.
  33. [19:09:43] <maxwell> yeah
  34. [19:09:55] <maxwell> trying to make them general, and using d* as a guinea pig is best
  35. [19:10:06] <maxwell> for example, the conversation code that it is built on top of it is a bit iffy
  36. [19:10:13] <maxwell> but since it is built as an engine
  37. [19:10:24] <maxwell> it will be easier to re-apply, and live on in other applications
  38. [19:11:21] <maxwell> ok
  39. [19:11:23] <maxwell> :)
  40. [19:12:14] <DeadSuperHero> Similarly, Hans Fase, the podmin behind, is working on an install script for deploying to Ubuntu servers.
  41. [19:12:38] Betreten [JT] hat den Kanal betreten (~JT]@2001:470:e885:0:d41e:e8cc:a534:a09f).
  42. [19:12:42] <DeadSuperHero> He hasn't released it yet, but I've been talking to him, and he's willing to have a few people look at it before he pushes it out to the masses.
  43. [19:13:06] <raven24> yeah, I've looked at it (a few weeks ago) and it was in its early stages
  44. [19:13:18] <raven24> but I guess it's improved since then
  45. [19:13:27] <DeadSuperHero> He's been pretty excited about it, and he's working on improving it all over the place.
  46. [19:13:40] <DeadSuperHero> Maybe you'd be willing to take a look at it again, raven24
  47. [19:13:41] <DeadSuperHero> ?
  48. [19:13:42] <DeadSuperHero> :)
  49. [19:13:51] <maxwell> hey [JT] we just finished talking about scrpto
  50. [19:13:59] <raven24> sure, still the same gist, I assume
  51. [19:14:05] <[JT]> Oh? Sorry I'm late. :)
  52. [19:14:12] <maxwell> its cool :)
  53. [19:14:23] <SlackerD|2> I just joined your pod, Justin.
  54. [19:14:40] <SlackerD|2> Photo uploading doesn't seem to work for the profiles.
  55. [19:15:06] <[JT]> Hmm. That's odd. I haven't heard that before.
  56. [19:15:10] <[JT]> I'll look at it.
  57. [19:15:12] <maxwell> SlackerD|2: I'm sure [JT] appreciated the feedback, but a pm or an email follow might be best for now <3333
  58. [19:15:18] <[JT]> Yep.
  59. [19:16:12] <SlackerD|2> ok
  60. [19:16:21] <maxwell> thanks!
  61. [19:16:41] <DeadSuperHero> [JT], what kind of help do you need with testing out Scrypto?
  62. [19:16:50] <maxwell> or anything else you wanted to mention?
  63. [19:16:52] <DeadSuperHero> Do you need just user feedback, or would podmin feedback be useful as well?
  64. [19:17:21] <[JT]> Both would be helpful. One thing that quickly bubbled up is that I need to improve key management (e.g., prevent duplicate keys).
  65. [19:17:33] <[JT]> I'd really like to see the federation part work.
  66. [19:17:44] <DeadSuperHero> What exactly would you need to federate with it?
  67. [19:17:45] <[JT]> But that takes more commitment from someone to stand up a test pod.
  68. [19:18:07] <[JT]> Just folks running the integrate-scrypto branch.
  69. [19:18:31] <maxwell> maybe a post to the mailing list would help?
  70. [19:18:38] <DeadSuperHero> I was just thinking that.
  71. [19:18:46] <maxwell> I'm sure some people would be interested in helping out?
  72. [19:18:46] <[JT]> That's a good idea; I'll send something out.
  73. [19:18:53] <DeadSuperHero> Sweet!
  74. [19:19:42] <maxwell> [JT]: i still want to give more feedback, i really think if you could make scypto a really really slick engine, lots of rails apps could throw it in their apps
  75. [19:19:50] <DeadSuperHero> Totally.
  76. [19:20:02] <[JT]> Sure - I'm open to all suggestions.
  77. [19:20:06] <maxwell> i imagine like small bloggers really liking as an easy way to drop them secure messages
  78. [19:20:13] <DeadSuperHero> :D
  79. [19:20:15] <DeadSuperHero> That'd be sweet.
  80. [19:20:26] <maxwell> i think it could move the needle much more than in just D*
  81. [19:21:27] <[JT]> maxwell: I agree. There are some things that I had to spend more time than I wanted on to work with the idiosyncracies of D* (e.g., the Contact/Person setup in messages).
  82. [19:21:39] <[JT]> But that's okay - it serves as a good initial platform.
  83. [19:22:04] Betreten bkeefe hat den Kanal betreten (62d67070@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
  84. [19:22:21] <maxwell> [JT]: yup, we can talk more out of band but I think YOU really want it to be decoupled from our complicated stuff
  85. [19:22:37] <[JT]> Absolutely - as much as possible.
  86. [19:22:37] <DeadSuperHero> modularity is a good thing.
  87. [19:23:05] Betreten dave_y hat den Kanal betreten (
  88. [19:24:25] <bkeefe> So what kind of changes has D* been going through recently?
  89. [19:24:39] <maxwell> bkeefe: we have been talking about them
  90. [19:24:49] <bkeefe> I've seen some incremental changes on Github here and there, Are there big changes planned?
  91. [19:25:54] <raven24> bkeefe: I recommend you read the
  92. [19:26:13] <bkeefe> thanks!!!
  93. [19:26:23] <maxwell> raven24: thx
  94. [19:26:28] <raven24> you'll get a gist of all the going-ons and (most of the time) weekly updates
  95. [19:26:49] <maxwell> also
  96. [19:27:02] <maxwell> frenetic found a race condition in federation code which is causing some errors
  97. [19:27:37] <maxwell> s/he is not here, but i wanted to send a big shout out to them for doing the due dillengene on documenting it
  98. [19:27:44] <maxwell> race conditions are hard :(
  99. [19:27:59] <DeadSuperHero> I can imagine.
  100. [19:28:41] <maxwell> esp. in such a frustrating part of the codebase
  101. [19:28:51] <raven24> is the proposed change in the issue gonna help?
  102. [19:28:54] <bkeefe> what exactly does the problem do?
  103. [19:29:11] <maxwell> raven24: honestly, I am not sure
  104. [19:29:20] <raven24> bkeefe:
  105. [19:29:31] <maxwell> his diagnosis of the problem sees right to me
  106. [19:29:34] <DeadSuperHero> raven24, nice!
  107. [19:30:15] <bkeefe> It looks like he/she is already working on a fix.
  108. [19:30:20] <bkeefe> Good to know!
  109. [19:31:14] <maxwell> so helping verify whatever he comes up with would be awesome
  110. [19:31:31] <raven24> I guess we really need a federation-testuite
  111. [19:31:51] <maxwell> yeah unfortunately, testing race conditions are really hard
  112. [19:32:12] <raven24> true...
  113. [19:32:33] <maxwell> these are indicative about why we need a different strat for federation in general
  114. [19:32:47] <maxwell> or distrubtuted-ness in general
  115. [19:33:15] <maxwell> sigh
  116. [19:33:38] <maxwell> well, so one other thing that people have been asking about (/hatip raven24 )
  117. [19:33:50] <raven24> :)
  118. [19:33:52] <maxwell> is something new that dennis, daniel and I have been working on this summer
  119. [19:34:06] <maxwell> is called
  120. [19:34:06] <DeadSuperHero> It's really sweet.
  121. [19:34:23] <maxwell> i mention it because it started as doing UX experiments for D*
  122. [19:34:43] <maxwell> the reason we started in another place was so we could make lots of changes without making people mad
  123. [19:34:53] <maxwell> something we have not been good at in the past
  124. [19:35:03] Spitzname offSchub nennt sich jetzt DenSchub.
  125. [19:35:08] <maxwell> but one problem that we found while doing d* for the past couple of yrs
  126. [19:35:43] <maxwell> is that, in addition to technical owning the bits, people need tools to actually MAKE stuff on the internet
  127. [19:35:44] <DenSchub> huh? Why am I always missing the meetings? o_O
  128. [19:35:54] <maxwell> dude, same time every two weeks
  129. [19:36:06] <DenSchub> my brain...
  130. [19:36:10] <DenSchub> hi there!
  131. [19:36:15] * DeadSuperHero hugs DenSchub
  132. [19:36:16] <maxwell> hey sir
  133. [19:36:17] <DeadSuperHero> it's okay.
  134. [19:36:41] <maxwell> so, we wanted to experiment with some completely different ways to solve these related problems
  135. [19:37:15] <maxwell> its much more focused on helping be creative in an internet native way
  136. [19:37:23] <DeadSuperHero> You could think of makr as an evolution of a set of ideas about how the social web could work.
  137. [19:37:33] <maxwell> the main point I want to stress, is that its a separate project with related goals
  138. [19:37:46] <maxwell> but its trying to break up this big problem spaces into separate things
  139. [19:37:49] <raven24> as a personal feedback for I really don't like that sort of thing. I guess I don't want to be that creative, and write text instead ;)
  140. [19:38:00] <maxwell> raven24: totally Ok!
  141. [19:38:10] <maxwell> in fact thats really good feedback
  142. [19:38:35] <maxwell> we by no means see it as something that will be the universal 'social network' expereicne
  143. [19:38:35] <maxwell> but
  144. [19:38:45] <maxwell> we did want a space to innovate on HOW people communicate
  145. [19:39:05] <maxwell> and maybe(hopefully) build something that is make unequivocally better by being a distributed system
  146. [19:39:34] <maxwell> the next generation of the social web needs it own way to communicate.
  147. [19:39:43] <raven24> yeah, I can imagine people going crazy for that sort of thing,
  148. [19:39:46] <maxwell> i don't know if is it, but we needed a space to experiment
  149. [19:39:47] <DeadSuperHero> Not only to communicate, but it's a different way to use social software.
  150. [19:40:17] <maxwell> the important part that is missing from d*, that we are tying to understand with makr, is about creating new things
  151. [19:40:21] <DeadSuperHero> The design focuses a lot on remixing and creating content, to add your own personal voice to the mix.
  152. [19:40:31] <maxwell> and making a system where actually borrowing things from other places and putting your own spin on it
  153. [19:40:47] <maxwell> and make that oK
  154. [19:40:57] <maxwell> because if everyone in the world is going to care about their data
  155. [19:41:06] <maxwell> they need to feel like it really means something to them
  156. [19:41:24] <maxwell> and i don't think current social system, d* included, really institutionalize that feeling
  157. [19:41:42] <maxwell> certainly, a bunch of smart nerds know what is at stake, but most people dont
  158. [19:41:55] <maxwell> and we want to try and move the needle to make the web a positive place for everyone
  159. [19:42:00] <DeadSuperHero> user data, at this point, is little more than abstract representation of how social data is paresed.
  160. [19:42:10] <DeadSuperHero> *parsed
  161. [19:42:31] <raven24> like the mess that was myspace customizations, but with a nice 'container' for each individual message :)
  162. [19:42:32] <maxwell> it is both fundamental, and completely misunderstood
  163. [19:42:52] <maxwell> raven24: not only that, but enabling new modes of production
  164. [19:43:00] <maxwell> memes are creating silly messages today
  165. [19:43:21] <maxwell> but it very well could be the way that ideas are created and proliferated in a distributed and non centralized manner
  166. [19:43:33] <maxwell> ^^ right now, that is just a hypothisis
  167. [19:43:37] <maxwell> but one we want to explore further
  168. [19:44:32] <raven24> I guess that can be really hard, since like, pictures of people or popular culture can be really location-specific
  169. [19:44:47] <raven24> so, not to create a bunch of 'inside jokes'
  170. [19:44:57] <bkeefe> is Makr still going to be Open Source?
  171. [19:45:01] <maxwell> so tl;dr, separate project, related goals that came out of questions we had from d*; two parts to owning your data we need to solve, technical and emotional
  172. [19:45:16] <raven24> bkeefe:
  173. [19:45:30] <maxwell>
  174. [19:45:34] <maxwell> whoops
  175. [19:45:36] <maxwell> thx raven24
  176. [19:45:38] <raven24> ;)
  177. [19:45:56] <maxwell> raven24: a good point, we are trying to figure out how we make it better for small groups of people
  178. [19:46:09] <maxwell> we are trying to take a lot of our learnings from d* here
  179. [19:46:35] <maxwell> i.e., we never really ended up building something that us and our friends want to use, and while we were able to spark the imagination of people all over the globe
  180. [19:46:37] <bkeefe> what's going to happen to D?
  181. [19:46:46] <maxwell> it was kinda lonely for what we original intended
  182. [19:46:55] <maxwell> bkeefe: as I said, nothing is going away or stopping
  183. [19:47:02] <bkeefe> oh. phew!
  184. [19:47:07] <maxwell> they are separate projects
  185. [19:47:36] <maxwell> but unfortunately they both require our time :)
  186. [19:48:03] <DenSchub> and "unfortunately" get's more time right now.
  187. [19:48:04] <maxwell> one is trying to create a next generation personal publishing platform
  188. [19:48:13] <maxwell> and the other is the basis of its distrubution
  189. [19:50:19] <bkeefe> so will D* end up sharing any of the code that Makr is getting?
  190. [19:50:59] <DeadSuperHero> bkeefe, technically speaking, Makr already does share code with D*. ;)
  191. [19:51:16] <maxwell> i think it is a possibility, there is some stuff that we fixed. a lot of the 'fixing' for some of the d* code is just ripping it out
  192. [19:51:47] <maxwell> we realized that it was in nobodies interest to continue the radical changes as feature flags in the current code base
  193. [19:51:51] <maxwell> causes too many bugs for everyone
  194. [19:52:01] <maxwell> and doesn't help us make something simple and good
  195. [19:52:08] <maxwell> versus something broad and shallow
  196. [19:52:29] <bkeefe> makes sense.
  197. [19:54:02] <bkeefe> how can the community help with Makr?
  198. [19:54:52] <maxwell> well, the community can help diaspora if they want by trying to pull fixes out of it
  199. [19:55:22] <maxwell> there are some decent refactorings of photos
  200. [19:55:54] <maxwell> and some other things
  201. [19:56:00] <maxwell> if someone was up to that
  202. [19:56:06] <bkeefe> :)
  203. [19:56:13] <maxwell> that would actually be huge
  204. [19:56:22] <maxwell> but its a fair amount of work
  205. [19:56:30] <maxwell> and would require someone pretty awesome and dedicated
  206. [19:56:55] <maxwell> bkeefe: thanks for the question
  207. [19:56:59] <maxwell> anyone else?
  208. [19:57:04] <bkeefe> thanks for the answer!
  209. [19:57:51] <maxwell> ok I need to go get myself some coffee from the store
  210. [19:57:56] <DeadSuperHero> kk
  211. [19:58:00] <maxwell> so email me if you have any questions
  212. [19:58:04] <DeadSuperHero> Thanks for coming everyone! :)
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