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  1. <defy_> where is anarchystar with what he was doing? haven't seen him speak in a while
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  3. [09:26] <sobriket> He was here yesterday and he's still pushing for liquidation and working on multisig.com
  4. [09:28] <sobriket> Shaded: without a debt-for-equity swap, the sunlot plan hardly differs, for current account holders, from charitable initiatives
  5. [09:29] <sobriket> It is also one that is likely to fail and to lead to botched liquidation at a later stage, when a company starts with hundreds of millions in debt on its books
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  27. [10:31] <+Shaded> sobriket: Our plan differs by providing immediate cashout options, regardless of any further profit sharing plans
  28. [10:32] <+Shaded> 06:38 < SuSEno> brokenmusic: He is Jon Holmquist of Coinabul
  29. [10:32] <+Shaded> 06:38 < SuSEno> brokenmusic: He is Jon Holmquist of Coinabul
  30. [10:32] <+Shaded> 06:38 < SuSEno> brokenmusic: He is Jon Holmquist of Coinabul
  31. [10:32] <+Shaded> 06:38 < SuSEno> brokenmusic: He is Jon Holmquist of Coinabul
  32. [10:32] == Tiraspol_ [~Tiraspol@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Quit: Tiraspol_]
  33. [10:33] <+Shaded> 06:38 < SuSEno> brokenmusic: He is Jon Holmquist of Coinabul
  34. [10:33] <+Shaded> 06:38 < SuSEno> brokenmusic: He is Jon Holmquist of Coinabul
  35. [10:33] <brokenmusic> Shaded, so, let's get this straight. Suppose this offer is accepted by the court and you are the new owners of the exchange. How soon do we get our 20% back? Realistically?
  36. [10:33] <+Shaded> Oh whoops
  37. [10:33] <+Shaded> Didn't see that go through haha
  38. [10:33] <brokenmusic> yeah :)
  39. [10:33] <+Shaded> SuSEno: I prefer Jon Holmquist of Bitcoin Black Friday
  40. [10:33] <+Shaded> Coinabul turned into a crapfest, which is why I left
  41. [10:33] <sobriket> I know but without equity, there's little to make it worthwhile
  42. [10:33] <brokenmusic> thanks, now I'm absolutely certain who you are )
  43. [10:33] <sobriket> And i think a court would recognise that
  44. [10:34] <+Shaded> brokenmusic: Once again, right now we're dealing with Mark's magical accounting numbers. We need to do an audit to see how much money Gox has and how much each person is owed.
  45. [10:34] <sobriket> Profit sharing doesn't mean much without equity
  46. [10:34] <+Shaded> What we offer, that the courts do not offer, is more intensive investigative services to get to a fair repayment of all parties involved.
  47. [10:35] <sobriket> Especially when debt then remains
  48. [10:35] <+Shaded> Courts will dip into the remaining assets to pay their fees. We offer to pay those costs upfront.
  49. [10:36] <brokenmusic> Shaded: let's say it only has the said 202K btc and nothing more
  50. [10:37] <brokenmusic> Shaded: the reason I'm saking is because my main concern is time. I want SOME money ASAP
  51. [10:37] <brokenmusic> Shaded: so to me, whether it will be 20% or 25% is less important than when
  52. [10:38] <brokenmusic> Shaded: and, I presume, that is the case for many people
  53. [10:38] <+Shaded> brokenmusic: In the courts, you might see your cash (cash not coins) in a year.
  54. [10:38] <+Shaded> Maybe in 2 or 5... maybe 10.
  55. [10:38] <+Shaded> It's fairly unknown.
  56. [10:38] <brokenmusic> Shaded: yes, so the question is, can you make it happen in 6mo or less?
  57. [10:38] <+Shaded> With our plan, you'll see your coins once the audit is over.
  58. [10:39] <+Shaded> I'll be pushing for less than 6months.
  59. [10:39] <+Shaded> Once we know who is owed what, everyone will have the option of cashing out immediately.
  60. [10:39] <Dr-G3> depends on how magical the account numbers are I guess
  61. [10:39] <+Shaded> In BITCOIN, not cash.
  62. [10:39] <+Shaded> That's the biggest difference.
  63. [10:41] <brokenmusic> another important issue is that some BTC may not be claimed. That is someone who had 1BTC on Gox might have forgotten about it. This should be redistributed among other users who make a claim
  64. [10:41] <+Shaded> In time I'm sure. We're not looking to claim dead assets.
  65. [10:41] <+Shaded> Everyone needs to be given a fair amount of time to claim what is theirs.
  66. [10:41] <Dr-G3> broken: this is what would happen in liquidation
  67. [10:41] <+Shaded> In anycase, this is a complicated scenario.
  68. [10:42] <brokenmusic> Shaded: so, when do you think we're gonna know the courts decision regarding your offer?
  69. [10:42] <+Shaded> Would you prefer people who understand Bitcoin... or those who were court appointed?
  70. [10:42] <+Shaded> brokenmusic: Sometime after next tuesday.
  71. [10:42] <brokenmusic> Shaded: oh, that sounds good
  72. [10:42] <+Shaded> If you'd like to help us, please sign up on SaveGox.com
  73. [10:42] <+Shaded> If you'd like to get more involved, pm me
  74. [10:43] <brokenmusic> Dr-G3: yeah, I mean, look. Surely Shaded wants to profit from this whole thing. I understand it. But I'm okay with it as long as ew get our money faster and in BTC
  75. [10:43] <brokenmusic> Shaded: already signed up
  76. [10:43] <Dr-G3> exchange business with that many customers should be profitable and it was
  77. [10:43] <+Shaded> Eh, I'm not looking for any profit.
  78. [10:44] <+Shaded> I got involved because honestly, this is one of the biggest deals in Bitcoin right now
  79. [10:44] <+Shaded> I think a positive decision for SaveGox would benefit the entire community.
  80. [10:44] <Dr-G3> yes
  81. [10:44] <+Shaded> Brock and Sandlot, yes, of course they are in it for the profit. Any business has to be.
  82. [10:45] <+Shaded> But the net positive is already there, without any shady paranoia that people keep sprouting.
  83. [10:45] <Dr-G3> as long as it's a win-win it's not a problem
  84. [10:46] <+Shaded> It's a win-win from what I've been able to deterime.
  85. [10:46] <+Shaded> determine*
  86. [10:48] == renfr [~renfr@mar92-12-88-162-230-238.fbx.proxad.net] has joined ##mtgox-talk
  87. [10:49] <sobriket> What legal basis can profit sharing have if the recipients do not hold equity?
  88. [10:49] <sobriket> Having equity also allows creditors to trade their equity with others
  89. [10:50] <sobriket> Obviously it needn't be so that 100 pct of a new company is owned by former mtgox creditors
  90. [10:50] <+Shaded> I'm not a lawyer, so I won't speculate.
  91. [10:50] <sobriket> That's completely impossible
  92. [10:51] == mortale [~mortale@gateway/tor-sasl/mortale] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
  93. [10:51] <sobriket> But instead of a 50 pct profit sharing agreement, I feel equity of around the same size is a much better deal
  94. [10:51] <sobriket> And I'm sure a court would agree
  95. [10:52] <+Shaded> Around 50%?
  96. [10:52] <papa> shaded
  97. [10:52] <papa> let s take a real example
  98. [10:53] <papa> i have 2 acct with mtgox
  99. [10:53] <papa> in one i ve got almost 6060 btc and the other one i have 60 btc
  100. [10:53] <papa> meaning i have around 6120 btc around
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  102. [10:54] <papa> so how much could i expect back with your plan?
  103. [10:55] <SuSEno> Until now seems that they can't calculate, because Mark's MAgical Number.
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  105. [10:55] <SuSEno> We even don't know if they really have 202000 BTC
  106. [10:55] <SuSEno> even we don't know how much money they left on MtGox Bank account
  107. [10:55] <papa> he has confirmed this to the court
  108. [10:55] <SuSEno> Need to do an Audit
  109. [10:56] <papa> abt the bank acct we don t know anything
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  111. [11:00] <+Shaded> If Mark has 202000 BTC, you'll get a pro rata percentage back
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  114. [11:00] <+Shaded> 202000/totalbtc = the percentage back. papa
  115. [11:01] <+Shaded> Like I've said before, it is impossible to give you a hard number without an actual audit, past Mark's word.
  116. [11:01] <papa> how much is total btc
  117. [11:01] <+Shaded> Your guess is as good as mine.
  118. [11:01] == Lao_Ban_ [~Adium@n056.s821.m-zone.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
  119. [11:01] <+Shaded> The big, big, BIG, difference here though is the equation.
  120. [11:01] <papa> ok so at the moment u don t have precise figure
  121. [11:02] <+Shaded> With the courts, (((yourBTC/totalBTC)*yourBTC)*conversiontofiat-conversionfees)-courtfees=amount returned
  122. [11:02] <+Shaded> With us, (YourBTC/totalBTC)*yourbtc).
  123. [11:03] <+Shaded> Little bit shorter eh
  124. [11:05] <papa> hmm and how abt the remaining?
  125. [11:05] <+Shaded> Remaining what?
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  127. [11:06] <Dr-G3> cash probably
  128. [11:07] <papa> btc because u will return only the btc available there
  129. [11:07] <+Shaded> fiat gets distrubted in the same manner
  130. [11:07] <papa> but it s not the total one
  131. [11:07] <+Shaded> We're returning all funds to customers.
  132. [11:07] <+Shaded> No court fees, no fees period.
  133. [11:07] <papa> yeah but i ll still get losses
  134. [11:08] <Dr-G3> but the fiat ppl get more % back (if mtgox didn't burn a lot of cash already)
  135. [11:08] <+Shaded> Do you want 80
  136. [11:08] <papa> because u wont return the totality of my btc
  137. [11:08] <+Shaded> 80% lossess or 97% losses
  138. [11:08] <+Shaded> losses*
  139. [11:08] <+Shaded> No one is going to pay you back the totality of your BTC.
  140. [11:09] <+Shaded> No one. I'm not here to sugarcoat it.
  141. [11:09] <+Shaded> Our plan is the best plan to get you back the most of your already crappy situation :/
  142. [11:09] <+Shaded> I wish there was a way to get all of it back in the next 6 months, but that is just implausible.
  143. [11:10] <papa> but ure not bringing any value in your plan
  144. [11:10] <papa> just come and say hey guys take the remainung here
  145. [11:10] <papa> and we ll take the db for free
  146. [11:10] <papa> and basta
  147. [11:11] <papa> i don t think it ll work like this
  148. [11:11] <+Shaded> We're bringing a rockstar team, we're pledging the legal and auditing costs to figure out who is owed what and we're bringing a resolution to this sticky situation in a much shorter time than the courts can.
  149. [11:11] <papa> u re not adding any value here
  150. [11:11] <+Shaded> I just gave you three separate examples of value added.
  151. [11:11] <papa> the team if for u to make money on mtgox that s all
  152. [11:11] <papa> how it can help us?
  153. [11:11] <SuSEno> yeah with court, that 202k BTC probably will be auctioned at low price
  154. [11:11] <papa> if u don t bring anything?
  155. [11:12] <+Shaded> Like we've mentioned before, customers will have the choice to participate in the new exchange and get paid back more than what is left at Gox.
  156. [11:12] <+Shaded> Ultimately, papa, it's us or the courts. We care about the community. We want to help you guys out. The court
  157. [11:12] <+Shaded> just wanted to settle it and deal with fiat.
  158. [11:14] <SuSEno> But I have little bit concern. The same concern as anarchystar. What is your and people from Sunlot Holdings connection with Mark Karpeles?
  159. [11:14] <papa> where i m not ok with your plan is that u just want the db of mtgox for free
  160. [11:14] <papa> and this is not good for us
  161. [11:14] <papa> u have 1 million customers names and adress
  162. [11:14] <papa> this is worth somethng
  163. [11:15] <SuSEno> What is your affiliation with Mark Karpeles, Jed Mc Caleb, Gay Bouchery
  164. [11:15] <papa> suseno are u asking me?
  165. [11:16] <+Shaded> SuSEno: I've had lovely conversations with GGB, I personally don't like Jed very much, and I think Mark and I have shared one IRC convo.
  166. [11:16] <SuSEno> No, I am asking Shaded
  167. [11:16] <papa> i have no affilitiation i m just a customer who have lost almost all his savings in this
  168. [11:16] <+Shaded> papa: We're fronting the legal costs and auditing costs. It is not a free bid.
  169. [11:17] <Dr-G3> shaded: Did you ask Jed how the customer funds from old mtgox were handed over to mark?
  170. [11:17] <+Shaded> Dr-G3: I personally did not. Not sure about
  171. [11:17] <Dr-G3> might be useful for the audit
  172. [11:17] <+Shaded> the other folks from Sunlot. Probably not though
  173. [11:17] <papa> this is normal cost when u buy a company shahed and it should come with other money for the assets of mtgox
  174. [11:17] <Dr-G3> you should do that
  175. [11:17] <Dr-G3> or the other people
  176. [11:17] <papa> 1 million customers can t worth 1 btc
  177. [11:18] <+Shaded> papa: how much in debt is that 1BTC going to cost us? ;)
  178. [11:18] <Dr-G3> you guys have the leaked database or real data?
  179. [11:18] <+Shaded> We have nothing unless the court approves the proposal
  180. [11:18] <Dr-G3> true
  181. [11:18] <+Shaded> You guys determine that.
  182. [11:19] <+Shaded> If the creditors don't support the plan, we will probably launch a seperate exchange with no backstory and no debt.
  183. [11:19] <+Shaded> You guys will be forced through liquidation and well, ask the Bitcoinica guys how that's worked out so far.
  184. [11:19] == pdipao [~pdipao@93-42-155-61.ip87.fastwebnet.it] has joined ##mtgox-talk
  185. [11:20] <papa> do u know if they were able to find out where the btc has gone or not yet?
  186. [11:20] <Dr-G3> anyway if it happens, ask jed that it's important information to make the data consistent
  187. [11:20] <sobriket> I will wholly support a good rehabilitation plan and I've already voiced my concerns about liquidation to the current administrator
  188. [11:21] <+Shaded> We'll launch a full fledged investigation if we get access to internal docs, along with supporting the proper authorities.
  189. [11:21] <+Shaded> We'll look for any coins belonging to Mt. Gox, regardless of where they are.
  190. [11:21] <sobriket> However, as I said in my email to you Shaded, i think equity to current creditors is a must
  191. [11:21] <papa> so what they ve done until now?
  192. [11:21] <+Shaded> and hopefully they've found something
  193. [11:22] <+Shaded> In anycase, if we find any coins, we'll return them in their current form, without converting them to cash.
  194. [11:22] <sobriket> If such doesn't happen, how can a new company with hundreds of millions of debt ever be credit worthy to both prospective customers and banks or other creditors
  195. [11:22] <+Shaded> Luckily you're wooing a group of investors.
  196. [11:22] <+Shaded> The plan works out
  197. [11:22] <+Shaded> You guys can support it or not.
  198. [11:23] <sobriket> If no equity is given in exchange for debt, what is to prevent a botched liquidation from happening in another jurisdiction?
  199. [11:23] <+Shaded> I'm off to bed, I'll be back and at it tomorrow in about 7 hours :)
  200. [11:23] <sobriket> Good night
  201. [11:23] <SuSEno> How can we support your plan?
  202. [11:23] <SuSEno> just register in SaveGox dot com /
  203. [11:23] <SuSEno> ?
  204. [11:23] <+Shaded> Go to SaveGox.com and sign up. If you want to help past that, send me an email, jon@jonht
  205. [11:23] <+Shaded> jon@jonhq.com*
  206. [11:24] <SuSEno> OK
  207. [11:24] <+Shaded> Thank you guys for your questions. I understand that a lot of people lost money on this whole thing. It's a touchy subject. But discussions like this will help us move forward.
  208. [11:24] <+Shaded> Hopefully we can turn this story into less of a sad story.
  209. [11:25] <SuSEno> Good Night