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mt gox channel dump

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  2. Start of #mtgox buffer: Thu Jun 23 01:57:23 2011
  3. * Now talking in #mtgox
  4. * Topic is 'Mt.Gox - Official channel - https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20208066-huge-bitcoin-sell-off-due-to-a-compromised-account-rollback - Official announcement in the next hours announcing time at which site will be back (at least 24h from announce). Recoveries will be processed during those 24h - Trading will resume 1h after site opening'
  5. * Set by MagicalTux on Wed Jun 22 16:28:08
  6. <Murfshake> market going way up without mtgox on th
  7. <Juffo-Wup> well... up to 15.8
  8. <shockdiode> ugh, if only I had my btc/dwolla that is in mtgox
  9. <indio007> bitexplorer is pretty cool you can trace a bit coin back to it's birth quite easily
  10. * alyx is now known as alyxxx
  11. <draginx> Why do I need to wait for a claim request process? My account only has one IP and I already confirmed my e-mail =/
  12. <Ooofo> draginx, because they need to see if there are multiple claims on one account
  13. <draginx> Hmmm multiple *confirmed* claims?
  14. <Ooofo> for example, if a hacker submitted a claim earlier, and then you tried to claim it 2 hours later but they already gave the account away
  15. <Ooofo> instead, they wait for a period and compare claims, if there are multiple
  16. <draginx> ah i see.. its for people who have 1 password for everything gotcha
  17. <Ooofo> yeah
  18. <draginx> but i mean i ever entered in the amount of BTC as well =/
  19. <shockdiode> yeah, i've only ever accessed my account from this machine and while my ip is dynamic, it doesn't appear to have changed in over two months
  20. <shockdiode> so anyone accessing my account from any other ip is not me...
  21. <draginx> just seems silly with over 20k claims even with 10 person staff it's going to take u guys a long time o-o unless u have a quick button "Release" and "Dont release" lol
  22. <draginx> right the IP in itself should be good measure alng with my email confirm
  23. <Ooofo> but, shockdiode, someone who previously logged into your account could say the same thing.
  24. <draginx> u dont keep logs of IP?
  25. <shockdiode> Ooofo: right, but somehow I seriously doubt that anyone else has logged in my account for 1, and 2 the vast majority of logins would be from this ip
  26. <draginx> shockdiode: i dont tihnk mtgox logged IPs
  27. <draginx> which is part of the problem
  28. <shockdiode> wat
  29. <draginx> except like a field called "ip" in the user table
  30. <draginx> which can only store one ip
  31. <shockdiode> ugh
  32. <shockdiode> well whatever
  33. <draginx> this is SPECULATION i dont actually know
  34. <shockdiode> oh ok then
  35. <draginx> id bet 5 btc ;)
  36. <shockdiode> well, whatever anyway, it's maybe gonna some tay get sorted out
  37. <shockdiode> some day*
  38. <shockdiode> seems like it'd be fairly simple to have a table with userid/ip/date/success to store login history for a financial related site
  39. <draginx> shockdiode: it is but u would also think SHA256 would have been the very least thing used for storing passwords no?
  40. <draginx> and l-o-l at 512 :P
  41. <shockdiode> yeah, i'll just stfu and stop thinking "well but... but...."
  42. <shockdiode> because obviously these things did not occur to them
  43. <shockdiode> ugh, i'm outta here lol
  44. <shockdiode> take care
  45. <draginx> peace dude
  46. <csshih> sha256 would be a bad idea
  47. <shockdiode> octuple rot 26 ftw
  48. <csshih> as there are, well, a few machines that are specifically cracking sha256
  49. <csshih> say, 11.371Thash worth
  50. <csshih> -_-
  51. <draginx> bcrypt ftw
  52. <draginx> did people lose their bitcoins throughout all of this?
  53. <csshih> what do you mean by that?
  54. <draginx> like if i login to my account
  55. <draginx> wil it say 0.00 btc?
  56. <draginx> if there were < 20
  57. <csshih> there will be <20
  58. <draginx> ah ok
  59. <Juffo-Wup> imho there is really nothing wrong with md5-bsdsalt
  60. <Juffo-Wup> even on GPUs its slow as hell to hash
  61. <Juffo-Wup> at least afaik
  62. <masori> i have heard about some action in here ... like Lulzsec took over the channel
  63. <Juffo-Wup> haha
  64. <Juffo-Wup> well
  65. <Juffo-Wup> someone claiming to be lulzsec did
  66. <Juffo-Wup> momentarily
  67. <masori> And it's all over already?
  68. <Juffo-Wup> oh yeah
  69. <Juffo-Wup> quite some time ago
  70. <masori> I missed the fun :-(
  71. <Phraust> didn't miss anything really.
  72. <eric1> Hello. I have an account on mtgox and it has been more than 24 hours since I submitted my request. I haven't heard anything. Is this normal?
  73. <R1card0> if you click on the link in your claim confirmation email, you will see that the page automagically updates to say 48 hrs now, how way kool is that ?
  74. <R1card0> Juffo-Wup> i believe it's been said that claimed accounts will be sent out basically in a large batch shortly before the site reopens
  75. <R1card0> i also heard that
  76. <Juffo-Wup> makes sense to me, as well
  77. <eric1> Hm. Ok thanks.
  78. <mloftis> Noone bothered to check Chanserv either, the lulzsec user id is still on the access list.
  79. <em> R1card0: will everyone rejoin at once or will only certain users get to join at first?
  80. <R1card0> fuck knows em
  81. <x6763> mloftis: haha
  82. <R1card0> i am beginning to realise that the only thing thats guaranteed, isnt what mtgox say
  83. <em> Because some people might wonder why some users get the advantage of participating in the market early on while others are forced to wait.
  84. <R1card0> i am at the point now where i just want to cash out and leave it all behind
  85. <em> And on the other hand, some people might wonder if only users with small amounts of coins can join so that mtgox can cover the transactions should everyone decide to cash out.
  86. <R1card0> a few days ago i thought, yeh mtgox is still the highest volume, cheap tfr costs etc
  87. <R1card0> but now im losing patience, mainly from keep being strung along
  88. <em> I still trust mtgox more than other exchanges as long as this is handled well.
  89. <MtGox_Adam>  Just updated the support site with some info about the claim process
  90. <R1card0> i am coming to the point where id rather do business with anyone else no matter the cost
  91. <mloftis> em: assuming they're not doign something wrong (BIG assumption at this point) there should *always* be enough BTC and USD to cover everything in the market since they're just acting as an exchange brokerage.
  92. <eric1> So, as soon as they've rx'd "enough" requests?? What about the 10% of people who all ready reclaimed their accoutns.
  93. * Fairuser is now known as Fairuser|AFK
  94. <R1card0> MtGox_Adam, what does this actually mean tho
  95. <eric1> ?
  96. <R1card0> [Update June 23 - 03:15 GMT] Clarification on the claim process.
  97. <R1card0>  
  98. <R1card0> Once you have gone through the first step of reclaiming your account at claim.mtgox.com an email will be sent to the email address registered with your account.
  99. <R1card0> Within that email a link is provided that you will need to click. This will verify that you are the original owner of the Mt.Gox account that was reclaimed.
  100. <geist_> it means we get to wait more still
  101. <R1card0> When we have received enough reclaim requests, a follow up email with further instructions on how to access your account will be sent out.
  102. <R1card0> how long is this going to take adam
  103. <mloftis> MtGox_Adam: FYI, you guys need to *fix* the Chanserv access list, LulzSecurity is still listed as having access on Chanserv here.
  104. <x6763> mloftis: i just sent a message to MagicalTux about that, too
  105. <eric1> Why not enable the accounts as soon as possible like the first 10% of people got?
  106. <em> eric1: there are not already people trading on mtgox is there?
  107. <R1card0> when we have enough requests sounds like more delays
  108. <x6763> mloftis: looks like it's taken care of now
  109. <MtGox_Adam> No one is trading right now, no one has access to the site.
  110. <em> I had a very strong password and my exact balance. I think I would be one of the first to get my account back.
  111. <R1card0> MtGox_Adam, we are talking about 1) verification its our account, 2) having the ability to cash out
  112. <MtGox_Adam> We don't know exactly when, but everyone will be given 24 hrs notice before we allow logins
  113. <R1card0> how long is this going to take
  114. <Phraust> then it'd be a race to see who can register a given account first.  then they'd have to halt an account, and take care of a dispute.
  115. <eric1> . believe it's been said that claimed accounts will be sent out basically in a large batch shortly before
  116. <eric1>                  the site reopens
  117. <eric1> I don't know. I don't really care about leaving Mt. Gox, but I would feel better if I knew my account was there believe it's been said that claimed accounts will be sent out basically in a large batch shortly before
  118. <Phraust> lather, rinse, repeat.
  119. <eric1>                  the site reopens
  120. <R1card0> because 24 hrs on the claim url has turned into 48 hrs (silently )
  121. <R1card0> and now it sounds like we have to wait till you guys reopen
  122. <mloftis> x6763: yup looks like.  Services has +es and -es heh.
  123. <R1card0> frankly, i dont have much faith you are going to reopen
  124. <eric1> Sorry, client freak out there. Nonsense.
  125. <eric1> MtGox_Adam: Okay, I guess. Keep us posted. I think even if you disabled trading, giving people access to their accounts would be a show of good faith, restore mutual trust, etc.
  126. <R1card0> that is what ,magical tux told us previously
  127. <R1card0> seems like everytime i sleep the goal posts are moved
  128. <shockdiode> sry, someone mind pasting me the conversation you're referencing above in a pm? just got back in here. ty
  129. <R1card0> sure
  130. <shockdiode> much appreciated
  131. <bgupta> R1card0: I am not holding my breath for anything to ahppen this week
  132. <x6763> R1card0: they have a lot of work to do...i don't find any of the delays or anything to be at all surprising
  133. <bgupta> If it does I'll be pleasantly surprised
  134. <bgupta> well more like amazed
  135. <R1card0> x6763, i feel like im being held to ransom
  136. <bgupta> how so?
  137. <Phraust> i'm convinced they are trying as hard as they can to Do the Right Thing.
  138. <bgupta> I just feel like I do when ever something really important is out of my control.. somewhat helpless and impatient
  139. <xelister> MtGox_Adam: 10% accounts filled in the claim.  How much of the claims you got so far where processed yet?
  140. <Phraust> But after seeing all of the scared, ill-informed speculation, shit talking, and bitchin & moaning, I know I'd tell every to go suck a fat one and walk away.
  141. <bgupta> however, I say to myself.. "This too shall pass"
  142. <xelister> Phraust: if a normall bank would just froze my and everyone accounts because they got owned, customers would be at LEAST already suing it's ass on evening first day waiting (so, monday)
  143. <Phraust> Shame this isn't a normal bank.
  144. <xelister> it is regulated as a normall company
  145. <R1card0> it certainly isnt acting like a company
  146. <xelister> it's not your friend Joe from chans that borrowed 15$ internet moneys, it's a company handling MILIONS OF DOLARS.  We are extreamly patient.
  147. <R1card0> no answers to questions then MtGox_Adam ?
  148. * Phraust is patient.
  149. <bgupta> Phraust: If this was a normal bank and it opened in an insecure fashion that let their customres money get stolen, they would get sued even worse.
  150. <midnightmagic> Lol questions that have been already answered maybe?
  151. <Phraust> It'll open when it opens.  I knew from the beginning investing anything in something so new was a risk.
  152. <xelister> midnightmagic: was my q answered yet?
  153. <midnightmagic> Beats me, what's your question?
  154. <xelister> 10% accounts filled in the claim.  How much of the claims you got so far where processed yet?
  155. <x6763> the big issue is that they weren't prepared for something like this...a few months ago, preparing for something like this might not have made sense as there weren't that many users and that much money or profits...but since it has exploded in growth, they've been so busy they've been unable to prepare for these types of situations, which is why we're here waiting for our money a few days after a big incident
  156. <midnightmagic> How is that any of your business?
  157. <xelister> midnightmagic: lol what?
  158. * xelister beats midnightmagic with a tief-club
  159. <xelister> you frozen my and thousand of people tens of thousands of dollars and you ask how it is our business to ask how fastly (or slowly) the actuall processing and UNFREEZING is going? lol?
  160. <bgupta> xelister: None, I suspect. If I were them I would be examining the claims and working on writing tools to automate as much of it as possible.
  161. <x6763> they couldn't just roll things back and turn the site back on, as bgupta pointed out
  162. <Phraust> Hindsight is always 20/20.  no one expected any of this, and it sucks that it happened.  From what I understand, they were using a system they didn't build, and it got overwhelmingly popular.
  163. <R1card0> boo hoo, i hope the next mtgox has learned this lesson
  164. <noagendamarket> Paypal doesnt look so bad now :)
  165. <bgupta> Phraust: Yeah they bought mtgox fairly recently...
  166. <darin_> noagendamarket: yeah it does
  167. <bgupta> R1card0: I think everyone has learned a lesson.
  168. <Hachima> As the holder of other peoples property, those people have an interest in knowing how you are managing their property. It is their business.
  169. <bgupta> including all of us..
  170. <Phraust> WIth the DDoSing, all of the upgrades, plus they've been working on a completley new backend.  According to the interview, the new guy there has only been working with them for 2 weeks.
  171. <midnightmagic> Sigh.. Whose fault is it that any of our BTC are stuck in there when we ALL knew exactly what MtGox came from?
  172. <Nibiru_> lolbertarians don't learn lessons
  173. <Phraust> So up until all of this, it was one man.
  174. <shockdiode> yes
  175. <Nibiru_> midnightmagic: your fault for trusting some guy on the internet, his for being incompetent
  176. <xelister> midnightmagic: hm? mtgox's fault OBVIOUSLY?  you trying to say it is our fault that we choose mtgox ?!
  177. <x6763> MagicalTux: has spent the last couple of months building a new system for mtgox and was planning on it going live by the end of last week...dealing with the ddos attacks and stuff slowed him down, and then the database leak and hacked account dumping a ton of coins on the market happened, and he decided to go ahead with setting up the new system now
  178. <bgupta> The fact is I learned exactly what a secure password is.. the old rules don't apply anymore in this world of massive distributed crack farms
  179. * xelister gives midnightmagic a worst-PR-person-ever reward
  180. <Nibiru_> he should have done that before buying the system
  181. <midnightmagic> Besides that, anyone who put so much in that they're hurting financially now that MtGox is down.. Like WTF. what kind of an idiot puts anything but play money into MtGox? Veiled
  182. <Nibiru_> the simplest of audits would have shown how insecure the bitcoin system is, he shouldn't have knowingly operated it
  183. <Nibiru_> mtgox system*
  184. <xelister> midnightmagic: it's jed fault for not knowing heads from tails about security and coding pile of shit, and yours for enrolling it to handle milions of dollars without any real checking or response teams
  185. <bgupta> x6763: Ah so that means rather than processing claims they are probably busy with the new backend, while waiting for folks to submit.
  186. <midnightmagic> I'm no PR. but you people constantly fucking whining is getting redundant and repetitive.
  187. <Phraust> ^
  188. <xelister> midnightmagic: hm btw, you are... a developer at mtgox? e.g. how are you related to mtgox.com b
  189. <xelister> s/b//
  190. <x6763> bgupta: i think he's busy with a lot of things...dealing with the new system, processing claims, dealing with lawyers, dealing with what happened on sunday, etc
  191. <midnightmagic> Not my fault! I lose nothing I couldn't afford to lose if MtGox never comes back up.
  192. <bgupta> I don't about you guys, but I am kinda excited that the new mtgox is coming, and that this event happned while the bitcoin market was so small
  193. <Phraust> it's going to be very interesting.
  194. <bgupta> wait I am relieved on the second one..
  195. <bgupta> not excited.
  196. <Phraust> all the panic derping is gonna be great to watch.
  197. <bgupta> derping?
  198. <Phraust> selling, buying, speculating, freaking out.
  199. <darin_> nobody has more incentive to get this thing back online as quick as possible as MT...
  200. <ezl_> there'll be a ton of money to be made my savvy traders as people get back into their accounts
  201. <x6763> darin_: exactly
  202. <Nibiru_> ezl_: lucky traders*
  203. <bgupta> holy cow.. by the time I get my money to tradehill btc wil be back at 17.50
  204. <go1dfish> bgupta: I'm excited the price has recovered pretty quickly and seems to be holding around 15
  205. <xelister> midnightmagic: I ment, are you responding as some representative of mtgox or something, or just as random customer like rst of us
  206. <bgupta> I don't think there will be a panic sell.
  207. * noagendamarket thinks there will be a run on the bank
  208. <bgupta> in a way all this time passing takes some of the edge out out of the panic
  209. <bgupta> gives folks a chance to reflect
  210. <R1card0> xelister, there are a lot of fan bois , perhaps some people like being lied to and messed around, each to their own i guess, does nothing for me personally
  211. <bgupta> a run on the bank is not the same as a panic sell, and since mtgox is fully escrowed. a run on the bank is not an issue
  212. <midnightmagic> No. I'm no MtGox shill. But in all my decades of experience I've never hear more pernicious whiners than all the people going on at such length attacking the people WHO ARE BASICALLY THE REASON ANY OF US MADE ANY MONEY AT ALL.
  213. <Phraust> hopefully people make better decisions with their cirtical funds in the future after all of this.
  214. <Nibiru_> Phraust: as if
  215. <Phraust> i know, right?
  216. <R1card0> lol caps lock trick eh, yeh i can see you experienced
  217. <Phraust> and like that, the main point is disregarded.
  218. <midnightmagic> Yah whatever no-caps loser.
  219. <bgupta> well irc doesn't support dbold or italics as far as I know
  220. <mr_gant_> For good reason. :)
  221. <R1card0> i learned that caps lockers are basically morons, in my decades on the interwebz
  222. <shockdiode> just ascii wangs and capslock and such
  223. <ezl_> WHAT?!
  224. <midnightmagic> Uh huh. Then you've learned how to make judgmental decisions on zero evidence. Which is exactly how I pegged you.
  225. <bgupta> almost 15.70
  226. <xelister> midnightmagic: are you retarded today or what.  Someone fucks up our MILION $, because being unbelivably incoptent, and are surprised people are complaining?
  227. <mr_gant_> But yes, midnightmagic has a point. The whining doesn't really serve any purpose.
  228. <midnightmagic> YOUR?
  229. <R1card0> lol teehee
  230. <xelister> yeap mine and other customers
  231. <R1card0> you judge all you want
  232. <midnightmagic> Gimme a break. You had millions? Who gave you the balls to talk on my behalf?
  233. <xelister> midnightmagic: how much money in USD+BTC is fucked up (frozen)? >1mln$ right? 400 btc+.   Is it customers? yes.  What do you dont understood
  234. <bgupta> xelister: Please don't quote me on this, but I think they said for those with multi million dollar balances you can contact them privately and get your money out early.. but you will need to send them special documentation.
  235. <xelister> didnt
  236. <Nibiru_> people don't have multimillion dollar balances, they have large bitcoin balances
  237. <bgupta> xelister: I'm surprised though that if you have mutimillions in mtgox, that this bothers you.
  238. <midnightmagic> xelister: Look, don't get me wrong okay? I respect the fact that you've been working tirelessly (I've seen it) to promote bitcoin pretty much since before it got popular.
  239. <Phraust> indeed.
  240. <bgupta> (IE: you probably have a lot of money)
  241. <xelister> bgupta: I ment in the summary milion worth of USD is frozen. Across all frozen accounts. Not that I had it all
  242. <noagendamarket> as long as mt gox doesnt touch the accounts of people who never traded during the crash and claim they did
  243. <noagendamarket> that will really be annoying
  244. <midnightmagic> But the constant rumours, endless unfounded speculation, and outright libel that I've been reading since MtGox went down is making me half-wish they lock down MtGox so tight none of the whiners can ever usefully trade again.
  245. <midnightmagic> .. without providing copies of passports and their firstborns, the way every other trading market is set up.
  246. <xelister> this is obviously biggest security fuckup in history of bitcoin
  247. <bgupta> I had all my bid orders execute.. and tried to put some more in.. at like $1 before they shut it down. I saw the volume spike and price drop on bitcoinwatch and thought it was some crazy early adopter..
  248. <Phraust> i dunno, that poor guy who lost 25k btc was a pretty big fuck up.
  249. <Clipse> bgupta : ye sure of course thats the most likely reason someone would sell at 0.01
  250. <Clipse> lmao
  251. <Clipse> stop fooling urself
  252. <bgupta> I'd agree it was the most visible, but I'd argue that if this had happened a few months ago, folks would not be bitching so loudly
  253. <midnightmagic> It's bad. I agree. I've always agreed. I'm glad I use one-offs for every piece of info I gave MtGox. But all I see is bitches like that COCK Kevin who are demanding MtGox cover the proceeds of what would be a major crime in any sane court I'm aware of.
  254. <Clipse> fuck kevin, he even admitted he thought it is stolen funds
  255. <bgupta> Well it wasn't trading at 0.01 when I came online..
  256. <Clipse> then to still want it is just absurd
  257. <midnightmagic> Any prosecutor worth his salt would be sharpening his knived right now to test Bitcoin fraud in court.
  258. <xelister> midnightmagic: this is real life
  259. <bgupta> Howefver I thought maybe the big sale had triggered panic selling
  260. <Nibiru_> midnightmagic: why?
  261. <xelister> it's not trading with magical cards, it's business and deals
  262. <Nibiru_> nobody cares about aspies losing money
  263. <Clipse> bgupta : what dont u understand? it all went to shit when the guy(?) manipulated the market to crash, everything from that point and afterwards is an effective of the hacker/fucker.
  264. <midnightmagic> Because this isn't WoW gold or EVE:Online ISK.
  265. <noagendamarket> this is sparta
  266. <Nibiru_> what jurisdiction would even prosecute
  267. <xelister> many courts really could execute to consider the done trades as valid even @0.01, and cover loses from mtgox pocket.
  268. <bgupta> Clipse: I am talking about what I thought the day it happened before the news came out and the markets were closed
  269. <bgupta> past tense.
  270. <xelister> it happens IRL in similar auciton portals
  271. <bgupta> I happened to be on vacation
  272. <midnightmagic> xelister: As a result of hacker activity? Name noe.
  273. <Clipse> bgupta : ok fair enough, I was live trading through it all and knew exactly from start to finish the shit thats going down is bullshit.
  274. <bgupta> well out of town at the beach
  275. <xelister> midnightmagic: dialers
  276. <noagendamarket> usually they dont cover up security breaches for days beforehand
  277. <midnightmagic> xelister: I don't follow..
  278. <Nibiru_> the only evidence exists on tuxs' server, who is proven untrustworthy
  279. <xelister> thousands of cases. Always the victim of hacking had to pay
  280. <Clipse> I also feel strongly that what happened a week before when price dropped from 32 to 10 also had something scetchy in it but no one bitched bout that so I wont either.
  281. <midnightmagic> Nibiru_: That's why I said "sharpening his knives" and not "sending out cops to arrest people right now."
  282. <noagendamarket> Clipse: agreed
  283. <midnightmagic> Nibiru_: Not to imply that I agree that MT is untrustworthy. Just that the evidence is slim.
  284. <xelister> midnightmagic: "dialer" troyan program hacks your computer into calling super-expensive phone numbers.  You have to pay the phone provider, despite it was result of a crime/hacking.  Court will agree.
  285. <Clipse> we had one guy crashing the market there with huge sale at $10-$12 when market traded at $30
  286. <midnightmagic> xelister: Tested in what court case?
  287. <Clipse> very very suspicious but Im not going into that
  288. <bgupta> Clipse: I wondered if that was someone ddeliberately popping a bubble
  289. <Clipse> just want mtgox back on track :)
  290. <xelister> midnightmagic: oh thousands. Google it
  291. <Nibiru_> bubbles always pop
  292. <noagendamarket> if you buy a picasso at a garage sale for 10 cents you dont have to give it back
  293. <Clipse> bgupta : I strongly believe it was legit funds from outside, but it was stolen funds is my believe that the person wanted to convert quickly
  294. <midnightmagic> xelister: Like http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/23/spain_dial_scam/ ?
  295. <noagendamarket> when you later find out
  296. <Clipse> it wasnt stolen from inside mtgox
  297. <Clipse> more likely some wallet thief
  298. <Nibiru_> noagendamarket: you would if it was stolen
  299. <noagendamarket> how do we know that ?
  300. <midnightmagic> noagendamarket: And if hackers break into an art museum, steal 100 picassos and sell them in a garage sale? Stolen property.
  301. <bgupta> Clipse ah..
  302. <noagendamarket> youre assuming it was stolen
  303. <noagendamarket> lol
  304. <xelister> midnightmagic: looks like it, yea
  305. <Clipse> this is why we the no.1 crackdown should be to secure wallets, any thief would of wallet.dat files would try to convert his btc asap even before victoms realise shit is gone
  306. <midnightmagic> We have no other evidence to believe otherwise.
  307. <Clipse> and that could be our biggest market worrying factor
  308. <xelister> midnightmagic: stolen property and  still the mtgox art selling shop will cover from OWN POCKET
  309. <xelister> it is rather that thiefs changes price tags in museum.  Because the museum owner forgot to close the doors btw
  310. <strawf> any progress for the claim requests?
  311. <Clipse> xelister : erm no, stolen property that is bought must be returned when found by police or whoever investigates
  312. <xelister> strawf: it is not our business, midnightmagic said
  313. <Clipse> fact is thieves get away, legit buyer suffers
  314. <Clipse> allways like that
  315. <xelister> Clipse: ok I agree.   Aaaaaand?  I would demand compensation from shop that sold me the stolen property of course.
  316. <midnightmagic> You imply I said that it's not our business to know how long it's estimated to get through each to our own claims.
  317. <Clipse> xelister : yes the onus is on the buyer
  318. <noagendamarket> anyways I hope the no1 priority is securing wallets
  319. <Clipse> to fight the backtracking
  320. <Clipse> the original person who got his stuff stolen gets his stuff back without much hassle
  321. <Clipse> everyone else inbetween suffer
  322. <midnightmagic> But you asked a different question earlier. You asked, specifically, "How much of the claims you got so far where processed yet?"
  323. <xelister> Clipse: here mtgox is both the museum owner that forgot to lock doors AGAIN and allowed tags meddling,   *AND* the guy that sold me the invalid-priced/stolen  pictures.   He should recompensate the guys that got robbed,  and he should recompensate the guys that bought stolen art...
  324. <Clipse> xelister : the chain doesnt work like that lmao
  325. <midnightmagic> He didn't forget to lock the doors. An Art authenticator left the keys in his convertible.
  326. <Clipse> in ur example it would work like so, he would move back the stolen items he sold and he would take back any fee he charged for the selling of the product
  327. <Clipse> you would get ur purchased funds back
  328. * ChanServ changes topic to 'Mt.Gox - Official channel - https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20208066-huge-bitcoin-sell-off-due-to-a-compromised-account-rollback - Site opens back on Friday June 24th 2011 at 03:00 GMT'
  329. <Clipse> and the stolen funds would go back to original owner
  330. <xelister> midnightmagic: yes.   It was said how many people send claim request,  but we (or at least I) are more interested in what is the speed of processing this requests.  This is police talk for WHEN WE CAN EXPECT THIS TO BE OVER finally. ;)
  331. <Clipse> thats exactly what he is doing
  332. <Phraust> :D
  333. <xelister> *polite
  334. <Clipse> everyone is getting back what they deserved, not what they think they deserve
  335. <Murfshake> hmm
  336. <MagicalTux> xelister: we'll check all the claim requests at least once before the site opens
  337. <xelister> so it means what date is realistic...?
  338. <MagicalTux> the one in the topic
  339. <xelister> Friday
  340. <R1card0> Sorry but we were told we would have access to our accounts 24 hrs after claims, if approved.
  341. <wolfspraul> MagicalTux: keep up the good work, stay calm. You guys are awesome!
  342. <MagicalTux> R1card0: 24 to 48 hours
  343. <LameArse> MagicalTux: I was calculating 0.65% earlier on the volume you traded over the last 30 days, I'm suprized you arent retiring and letting someone else worry :P
  344. <R1card0> now you are saying we will let you know 24 hrs before we open
  345. <xelister> Friday
  346. <MagicalTux> R1card0: we said we'd let people know 24 hours before we open
  347. <xelister> Gotta get prices down on Friday
  348. <xelister> Everybody's lookin' forward to the sellin selling
  349. <Clipse> ROFL xelister
  350. <Clipse> To the selling weekend!
  351. <xelister> Prices getting down on friday
  352. <Clipse> friday friday, gotta start selling friday
  353. <Clipse> hahahahaha
  354. <Clipse> oh god
  355. <R1card0> so MagicalTux , by 12gmt tomorrow, i will have access to my account ?
  356. <Clipse> stephen colbert ripped the shit out of that song
  357. <Clipse> legend!
  358. <R1card0> ( that will be 50 hrs )
  359. <MagicalTux> R1card0: by 3:00 GMT
  360. <Phraust> lol.
  361. <MagicalTux> and at 4:00 GMT, trading will open
  362. <R1card0> when this week ?
  363. <Clipse> friday friday ..
  364. <R1card0>  are talking 24 hrs from now ?
  365. <xelister> Clipse: as I see it. Mtgox negligence had 3 effects
  366. <darin_> R1card0: are you fucking retarded
  367. <xelister> 1) some people's coins where 'robbed'
  368. <R1card0> darin_, a little yeh
  369. <xelister> 2) some people where sold on invalid price
  370. <Clipse> 1) coins that left the system due to theft afaik is covered by magicaltux and it wasnt as much as the overall damage that is being rolled back.
  371. <Phraust> MagicalTux: Thanks.
  372. <Clipse> 2) invalid prices rolled back, purchases refunded
  373. <xelister> 3) -don't forget- some people that thought they maid an awesome bargain buying @15 or @10 or @5 , will find out the deal is called off
  374. <xelister> eveyone forgets about 3
  375. <Juffo-Wup> soooo, what're you proposing? that the government come in and regulate their behavior?
  376. <Phraust> Persoanlly, I'd file #3 under "tough shit".
  377. <Clipse> 3) people who thought they made a killing, fuck them.. amateurs.. either they knew its a bullshit situation(I did) or they can just deal with it like anyone else would.
  378. <wolfspraul> xelister: no we are all very clear about 3, and it's a great sign of quality of the exchange that that is exactly what MagicalTux will be doing
  379. <noagendamarket> ^
  380. <xelister> in real business, if you would officially propose me cars at 100 USD each because you misstyped 100000 - then I would rather say its your problem and you should deliver the deal
  381. <Clipse> xelister: not alot of ppl could bargain buy anyhow, it affects a few people... the trading Stalled and mainly API traders could get something thru and perhaps a few website traders
  382. <Clipse> MAJORITY couldnt trade, so it was in a sense unfair to them aswell
  383. <xelister> I see ofcourse that @0.01 was ridiculous.  but some traded say @12 (probably me too, had some bids)
  384. <noagendamarket> the funny part is it was only a short time frame
  385. <midnightmagic> No; courts don't make people sell stuff like that just because some ad-man decided he wanted a cheap Mercedes..
  386. <Clipse> xelister : the dropped from 17.5 to 16 15 14 13 etc. all happened within 5-10mins
  387. <Clipse> it just takes that long for 0.01 selloff to take effect
  388. <Clipse> change reaction then by trading bots
  389. <Clipse> and boom!
  390. <xelister> Clipse: i had often left bids @12 and @9 etc, even when prices where @17
  391. <xelister> others did too
  392. <xelister> all this makes me not like how mtgox bashes kevin day
  393. <Clipse> xelister : thats unlucky, preset trades wasnt suppose to kickin if the start of selloff didnt get initiated
  394. <midnightmagic> when did MT bash Kevin?
  395. <allinvain> in the head
  396. <xelister> when he implied kevin is a thief
  397. <xelister> or ther hacker
  398. <allinvain> kevin got extremely lucky
  399. <xelister> this may be true, but also may be false
  400. <wolfspraul> xelister: and you say that if those open orders were fulfilled, you would want to keep the coins?
  401. <allinvain> he must've had that 0.01 bid there for shits and lulz for a long time
  402. <midnightmagic> kevin is demanding compensation for taking advantage of a crime, how twisted and dishonourable is that?
  403. <Clipse> wolfspraul : of course he wants, but if it was reversed and it had to do with his stolen coins it would be a big NO NO NO santa clause
  404. <xelister> wolfspraul: I say this is complicated matter, it is certainly not "oh sorry we fucked up... fuck you all trades are ROLLED BACK, problem brah?"
  405. * Phraust shakes his head.
  406. <Clipse> allinvain : he had placed the bids on the same day apparently according to him 20mins before the shit hit
  407. <Clipse> not shits and giggles long ago
  408. <allinvain> oh oh
  409. <allinvain> damn
  410. <Clipse> he even said so himself
  411. <allinvain> Clipse, in that case..he's trying to be clever
  412. <midnightmagic> allinvain: No, I think he put it in just before the hack happened, or possibly just during..
  413. <Clipse> he however said he didnt play it 1-5mins before
  414. <midnightmagic> like within minutes.
  415. <allinvain> opportunism
  416. <allinvain> that's what it was
  417. <Clipse> point is it was same day, 10-20mins up or down scale
  418. <wolfspraul> xelister: what do you want? I don't get it, sorry. mtgox is doing the one and only right thing to clean this up.
  419. <midnightmagic> Prescient opportunism.
  420. <allinvain> and now he's mad that he can't keep his booty
  421. <xelister> midnightmagic: drop to 0.01 MIGHT occured as a result of normal trading. If say sme comp4cash or other biggest fish would for some reason liked to cash out at once.
  422. <wolfspraul> xelister: but you know that's not what happened
  423. <Clipse> xelister : dream on, btc wont drop to 0.01 due to normal trading within 10-15mins
  424. <Phraust> might have != did
  425. <Clipse> if u really believe that you are in the wrong biz
  426. <xelister> gultiy untill proven innocent ?
  427. <wolfspraul> roll back, back to business. mtgox is doing the right thing.
  428. <Phraust> agreed.
  429. <Clipse> why have interest in something that you feel strongly can drop to shits... bitcoin have been actually pretty fucking stable for such a new currency
  430. <xelister> Clipse: if someone would drop 200,000 BTC then it would.  Like if any of the early adopters would like to immediatelly cash in to say @8, and it would triggered mass panic to @1 and then everyone sells to @0.01
  431. <Clipse> lol
  432. <Clipse> 200k at 0.01
  433. <Clipse> yes legit
  434. <Clipse> all day long
  435. <Clipse> of course ppl would do that
  436. <Clipse> makes 100% sense
  437. <midnightmagic> xelister: Dude. The jerk is asking for compensation. Here's, effectively, what he's asking: "I took advantage of a crime, and even pulled some ฿ irrevocably out, knowing it was taking advantage of a crime. I want MtGox to pay me because I didn't steal any more."
  438. <allinvain> who woudl take that hit though?
  439. <Clipse> no investigation required
  440. <Clipse> its all legit
  441. <Clipse> ppl hate money
  442. <Clipse> its very humanistic
  443. <wolfspraul> xelister: you don't really take sides, unfortunately. So I don't know whether you want to keep those coins or not. But think it through - let's say this attack would have undermined confidence into all of bitcoin so much that they would be trading at 1 USD at other exchanges. Would you even be here making your point of keeping your buys at 12 USD or 8 USD?
  444. <xelister> year ago who would say @20 BTC is legit?  people couldn't belive when it went up to AS MUCH AS @0.20.  BTC is super wind, anything is possible.
  445. <Clipse> lol
  446. <allinvain> wouldn't an early adopter want to sell in small chunks over a given period of time
  447. <midnightmagic> "I could have stolen everything. You should be thankful."
  448. <midnightmagic> That's sociopathic man.
  449. <Clipse> xelister : its pointless discussing this , you are arguing like a brick wall
  450. <allinvain> midnightmagic, who said that?
  451. <xelister> artfortz could probably brake mtgox using his coins just to prove a point.
  452. <midnightmagic> allinvain: Yes.
  453. <midnightmagic> allinvain: I'm paraphrasing.
  454. <allinvain> midnightmagic, ah
  455. <Clipse> xelister : aaah but he wont cause fuck its worth alot of monecy
  456. <Clipse> SEE the point is proven straight up
  457. <midnightmagic> allinvain: But watch the interview with him that Bruce did. The guy's fucking brutal.
  458. <allinvain> hope artfortz does not get hacked
  459. <xelister> wolfspraul: I didnt bought when the prices where falling. Perhaps some buy @12 of few coins. This is not very important
  460. <Clipse> midnightmagic : whos brutal?
  461. <allinvain> midnightmagic, Kevin? hmm..haven't seen the interview
  462. <midnightmagic> artforz is probably one of the least-likely person to be hacked, perhaps out of all of us.
  463. <allinvain> I shall give it a viewing
  464. <wolfspraul> xelister: yes but imagine they would be trading at 1 USD at other exchanges now. ok? would you argue to rollback or not rollback?
  465. <xelister> wolfspraul: I say it sucks that everyone jumps to conclusions that kevin is hacker
  466. <Clipse> i saw his mug and what he typed on that chatroom thing
  467. <xelister> you are hypocrits,
  468. <xelister> where the price was dropping I bet almost everyone
  469. <midnightmagic> Clipse: That Kevin guy. The interview is f'ing brutal.
  470. <xelister> would be buying @10 @5 @1 like crazy
  471. <xelister> I certailny would
  472. <Clipse> : xelister I was live trading and logs can prove it
  473. <allinvain> lol funny enough I would..but only if it was during a genuine market panick
  474. <Clipse> I could have bought as much as I wanted
  475. <Clipse> via api
  476. <Clipse> I DIDNT
  477. <allinvain> not as a result of technical or human error
  478. <MagicalTux> xelister: that's why we will not forget people who got their trades rolled back
  479. <Clipse> cause i knew any legit company would reverse this shit
  480. <Clipse> and now its happening
  481. <Clipse> and im in the clear
  482. <midnightmagic> Yeah, but I wouldn't pull it out, or if I was stupid enough to, I'd be paying it back after I found out it was because of a multi-million-dollar heist-attempt.
  483. <xelister> what I say is that imho the just thing to do
  484. <R1card0> another status update, about the clearest one yet
  485. <midnightmagic> Who knows what a drop like that means? Maybe it is legit. Damn straight I'd put a buy order in.
  486. <xelister> is to compensate everyone that lost the occasion on the price falls, because it IS mtgox only fault that it was artifficiall and untrue fall
  487. <xelister> probably not compenstae the entire @0.01 400K because that is really...
  488. <Clipse> rofl
  489. <xelister> but figure out some satisfactory middle ground
  490. <Clipse> xelister : next time your bank defaults and you lose all your money, please tell them that story.
  491. <Juffo-Wup> i think you should all SUE MTGOX to MAKE THE GOVERNMENT REGULATE what goes on on your LIBERTARIAN BITCOIN EXCHANGE
  492. <Clipse> mtgox handling this perfect
  493. <Juffo-Wup> hehe
  494. <Phraust> haha
  495. <Juffo-Wup> sorry i mean i know maybe some of you have some real money in  there
  496. <xelister> Clipse: well everyone would be suing the banks. Or beating up owners if they can.  Also, we aspire to do better then normal banks? :)
  497. <Juffo-Wup> but i have a hard time respecting you nonetheless
  498. <Clipse> you fucks moaning bout rollback put more pressure on mtgox than you would on your own banks.
  499. <Clipse> xelister : GOOD LUCK u cant sue a bank
  500. <Clipse> fucking funny story :)
  501. <Juffo-Wup> sure but i mean when last week everyone was like "yeah bitcoin and everything related are sweet because the government doesn't regulate/interfere"
  502. <Clipse> if a bank defaults, its gone!
  503. <Clipse> nothing to sue
  504. <xelister> Clipse: people sue banks all the time
  505. <Clipse> u understand what defaulting mean?
  506. <Phraust> Juffo-Wup: too true.
  507. <Clipse> rofl
  508. <Juffo-Wup> and now you/they/etc are all like "SHIT! COME HELP ME, GOVERNMENT!":
  509. <xelister> Clipse: if company bankrupts you can still sue the past owners in civil suit
  510. <Clipse> xelister : HAHAHA yes theoretically, ud never have more funds than the banks
  511. <Clipse> u understand that the minority have the majority
  512. <Juffo-Wup> see but suing people is asking the government to intervene in private affairs
  513. <Clipse> not the other way around
  514. <midnightmagic> Juffo-Wup: I'm not.
  515. <xelister> Juffo-Wup: I am not telling to sue anyone.  it is example
  516. <Clipse> good luck
  517. <midnightmagic> Juffo-Wup: And you're trolling.
  518. <Juffo-Wup> ehh, maybe sorta
  519. <Juffo-Wup> but i mean
  520. <allinvain> Juffo-Wup, how? suing is making use of the legal system..
  521. <allinvain> how is the legal system tantamount to "government"
  522. <xelister> Juffo-Wup: what alternative you propose
  523. <Juffo-Wup> yeah, and the legal system is something SOLELY established by the government
  524. <xelister> say /some exchange/ just runs with money. what  do you do"
  525. <Juffo-Wup> suing someone is asking the government to use violence on your behalf
  526. <xelister> if not sue?
  527. <Clipse> government should only intervene to enforce the LAW, the government shouldnt be the LAW
  528. <noagendamarket> would it be better to send a knee capper after them ?
  529. <allinvain> and tell me please how would disputes be resolved in your ideal world?
  530. <Clipse> sadly the world doesnt seem to work like that
  531. <noagendamarket> no it wouldnt
  532. <allinvain> bust a cap in his ass?
  533. <Clipse> governments tend to want to be the law
  534. <Juffo-Wup> additionally; even if you think that civil suits are an appropriate use of government violence, what contract did you have, exactly, with mtgox, that you are asking the government to enforce by way of violence?
  535. <xelister> so becoming being violent criminals and thugs is better then asking government to help?
  536. <noagendamarket> mtgox claims he has a contract through tibanne
  537. <noagendamarket> I disagree
  538. <Clipse> I actually wish ppl go so far to sue mtgox, the first day in the court room it would be overturned and mtgox can sue them for unjust lawsuit due to no signed agreements
  539. <allinvain> xelister, I often get the impression from what I read on the forum that many hold this belief..that somehow you're not man enough if you ask for the help of whatever established legal and justice system there is in place
  540. <Clipse> it would give me epic lolz
  541. <allinvain> as if the only institution you can rely on is the fist and the gun
  542. <xelister> would you really resort to beating up any unhonest trader like if it's Somalia, before just suing him like a civilized person?
  543. <Juffo-Wup> oh hey xelister, i'm not saying you guys should personally resort to violence... but filing a lawsuit IS asking the government to threaten and/or use violence on your behalf
  544. <midnightmagic> Building a better future is better than asking the government for help. Participating in the new exchange MT was talking about is better than demanding government intervention.
  545. <Clipse> xelister : suing isnt civil
  546. <xelister> Juffo-Wup: I know this is not good, but what are other options
  547. <allinvain> Juffo-Wup, nobody is going to sue mtgox..maybe Kevin
  548. <xelister> oh ok then
  549. <allinvain> but he'd have one hell of a time
  550. <Juffo-Wup> well, lots of people talk about it!
  551. <allinvain> they're just talking with their ass
  552. <Clipse> kevin would need money to sue and then money to payout cause he will lose
  553. <Juffo-Wup> hehe
  554. <xelister> I ment to sue in civil for example,  not neceserly to make criminal charges and use police
  555. <Juffo-Wup> perhaps that's rather my point
  556. <allinvain> Clipse, he could "bank" on the money he "earned"
  557. <Clipse> civil involves jurisdications lol
  558. <Clipse> now ur playing different cards
  559. <Juffo-Wup> xelister: the government uses violence in enforcing judgments in civil suits.
  560. <xelister> ^--------- all this is general talking on enforcing trades.  NOT about mtgox, btw
  561. <xelister> Juffo-Wup: yeap sort of. this is not perfect too
  562. <allinvain> rather the threat of violence
  563. <Clipse> we are all winning for once the majority gets the better end of the stick and a few from the minority will have to deal with not getting cheap buys
  564. <Clipse> tough shit, majority rules
  565. <xelister> if I would be Kevin I would definatelly sue
  566. <allinvain> which is enough to make people comply with the judgement of a court
  567. <Clipse> good times
  568. <Phraust> meh.  got what I was looking for.  Gox re-opens on friday.
  569. <xelister> if I would be mtgox I would settle with Kevin
  570. <Phraust> time to go lay some video games.
  571. <Juffo-Wup> err yes; violence-or-the-threat-of-violence
  572. <Clipse> xelister : no u wouldnt and your not mtgox
  573. <midnightmagic> wow, brutal. Remind me never to trade on an exchange you build..
  574. <Clipse> its easy to type that shit
  575. <Clipse> to do it is just stupid
  576. <xelister> Clipse: for chance to get some part of 0.5 milion? I would try
  577. <em> Yeah this is a bit rich. The latent purpose of bitcoins is to give people who are independent enough the freedom to make exchanges without the governments interference. Many people who were attracted to bitcoins were attracted to its anarchical quality.
  578. <Clipse> xelister : are u on crack, settle with kevin for what?
  579. <Clipse> money you dont owe him ?
  580. <Clipse> what crack are u huffing?
  581. <Juffo-Wup> thanks em; you stated the point i was trying to make very eloquently :)
  582. <xelister> Clipse: mtgox automatically executed an BINDING DEAL where it promised Kevin ~200,000 btc. For their own fault.
  583. <Juffo-Wup> xelister: under what contract was it a "BINDING DEAL" ?
  584. <Clipse> rofl xelister you believe that?
  585. <allinvain> mtgox should erally invest in insurance
  586. <Clipse> did you just think before typing?
  587. <allinvain> really
  588. <em> If you couldn't handle being on the frontier then why were you fooling around with bitcoins in the first place? You could just buy dollars and park them in Bank of America and be content.
  589. <xelister> Juffo-Wup: under the same contract under which we all have some ballance in mtgox and we are sure that this money in that ballances belongs to us and we wait to be able to again use it
  590. <Clipse> xelister : u do know as it stands mtgox could legally take all the money
  591. <Clipse> and you cant say shit about it?
  592. <Clipse> LEGALLY that is?
  593. <Clipse> how does that feel?
  594. <Juffo-Wup> xelister: and what contract is that exactly?
  595. <copumpkin> lol
  596. <em> Clipse: feels good man.
  597. <allinvain> legally bitcoins are recognized as money
  598. <copumpkin> contracts don't have to be written down
  599. <allinvain> so legally you're all trading in monopoly money
  600. <Clipse> all of us technically donated funds into an account with him.
  601. <allinvain> and legally..oh fuck it..when will this end
  602. <Juffo-Wup> ok copumpkin, did you make a verbal contract with mtgox then?
  603. <xelister> Clipse: mtgox is a trading company incorporated in japan. If it would "run with the money" it would be same as if online shop would run with money&goods - it would be a common theft case even.
  604. <Clipse> hes not a sleezy fucktard and he is sorting this out
  605. <copumpkin> Juffo-Wup: did you make a verbal contract with people in a restaurant to pay them at the end of a meal?
  606. <Clipse> hes not egold or flooz or piss pots like that
  607. <copumpkin> do you think they'd have no recourse if you walked out without paying?
  608. * xelister kicks Clipse firmly in the balls
  609. <Juffo-Wup> xelister: oh, theft? again, asking the government to intervene with violence
  610. <xelister> WAKE UP Clipse
  611. <xelister> Clipse: read some facts. mtgox is a company. inc in JP.
  612. <Clipse> xelister : Im awake, but your paint keeps dripping
  613. <Clipse> you never signed a fking contract with them
  614. <Clipse> doesnt matter if they are the prince of tartland
  615. <Juffo-Wup> copumpkin: haha good one
  616. <Clipse> you handed over funds
  617. <xelister> do you signe a fucking contract with newegg?
  618. <Clipse> without any trading conditions signed
  619. <em> Screw legalities. What bitcoins have already shown. And what they will continue to show. Is that we don't need the government holding our hand to take care of ourselves. If you do, no one here will stop you from being one of the settlers and leave the pioneering to us.
  620. <Clipse> can you understand that ?
  621. <copumpkin> people seem to think the law only applies to signatures
  622. * copumpkin shrugs
  623. <xelister> what if newegg would run with your moneyz and your radeonz you ordered? obviously they would be thiefs and it would be a case for both police and civil
  624. <copumpkin> armchair lawyers are fun
  625. <x6763> em: +1
  626. <Clipse> im just giving you the technical bullshit you dont seem to digest well... luckily mtgox isnt sleezy fucktards and they are doing the right thing to move forward for all of us and earn good living for themself the proper way.
  627. <xelister> Clipse: what copumpkin said. Do not be a retard. Think of newegg example or any e-shop. Dont need signed paper contract to make legall binding agreement
  628. <Juffo-Wup> so are armchair libertarians :P
  629. <wolfspraul> xelister: have you been a party in actual legal proceedings? whether in the form of private arguments between lawyers, or in the form of a public case?
  630. <copumpkin> Juffo-Wup: oh, I'm practically a commie :)
  631. <xelister> wolfspraul: yes
  632. <geist_> you guys argue about this shit for a few hours EVERY DAY. really guys?
  633. <copumpkin> I still enjoy bitcoin
  634. <Clipse> xelister : haha thats where you are wrong, when you make a payment you can reverse payment if goods not reserved
  635. <Clipse> received
  636. <Clipse> thats your insurance
  637. <allinvain> geist_, cleansing the soul
  638. <Juffo-Wup> oh yeah i think bitcoin is great; i just enjoy pointing out inconsistencies in others' expressed political views :)
  639. <wolfspraul> xelister: what are the terms of service you entered into when starting to use mtgox?
  640. <Juffo-Wup> (not yours, necessarily [copumpkin])
  641. <wolfspraul> have you read them carefully?
  642. <xelister> Clipse: not in method payments like bank wire, which is 90% of e-payments in most countries other then USA
  643. * Clipse awaits made up terms from xelister
  644. <copumpkin> Juffo-Wup: oh, yeah, there are plenty :)
  645. <Clipse> xelister : the sender for wire must proof he didnt simply make a donation or transfer to mtgox, how will he proof it was for a service rendered with mtgox?
  646. <Clipse> see? its not so fking obvious as you try to make it.
  647. <Juffo-Wup> honestly, i'm sure there are plenty in mine as well copumpkin :)
  648. <xelister> wolfspraul: the ones that MT linked on forum. What part do you have in mind?  Force majeure does not apply in gross negligence.
  649. <copumpkin> consistency is for the weak
  650. <copumpkin> it's much more interesting to struggle with reconciling your inconsistent viewpoints to figure out what you actually value
  651. <Juffo-Wup> xelister: "gross negligence" does not apply without the use of violence on the part of the government, so what's your point?
  652. <Clipse> oh jesus christ bleeding mary I give up, this dildo is living on his own pizza island
  653. <wolfspraul> xelister: I've never seen terms of service for mtgox. url?
  654. <em> Just as soon as I am able to, I'm buying more bitcoins on mtgox -- Personally I'm very enthusiastic about bitcoins future, and to me I still trust mtgox more than the other exchanges, pending them sorting this out promptly and transparently.
  655. <noagendamarket> there are no tos for mt gox
  656. <wolfspraul> em: me too! :-)
  657. <Juffo-Wup> copumpkin: agreed, 100%
  658. <copumpkin> wolfspraul: where are the terms of service for the vietnamese restuarant I went to yesterday?
  659. <xelister> Clipse: are you dense or what. Apply waht you say to some e-shop, that you wire money to and that then tells you "fuck you" and doesnt deliver the good you paid for. Can you sue here or not?
  660. <Clipse> em good move, watch as soon as mtgox goes online all the other wannabe miniture exchanges will benefit with higher exchange rate
  661. <copumpkin> having spelled-out terms of service simplifies legalities
  662. <wolfspraul> copumpkin: what's your point?
  663. <Clipse> xelister : Im not going to answer your paint anymore, I tried to start civil now its just silly to waste my time
  664. <noagendamarket> a tos wont hold up in court anyway
  665. <Juffo-Wup> my point is F*** IT, WE'LL DO IT LIVE! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2YDq6FkVE
  666. <wolfspraul> I really would love to see a transcript of a case against mtgox public somewhere, that would be so much fun.
  667. <Clipse> you clearly have your own rotten examples
  668. <copumpkin> wolfspraul: having shit spelled out clearly is a safer option from a legal standpoint. It gives your opponents fewer places to fuck you
  669. <bougyman> em: it's already been neither prompt nor transparent, your statement seems an oxymoron.
  670. <xelister> wolfspraul: http://legal.tibanne.com/Tibanne_ToS_20100131.html
  671. <copumpkin> wolfspraul: not having them doesn't mean there aren't implied legally binding agreements
  672. <wolfspraul> when the judge tries to understand that you wire money overseas to some account, and then...
  673. <wolfspraul> :-)
  674. <xelister> Clipse: ok, I accept your defeat.
  675. <copumpkin> wolfspraul: yeah, that money was clearly intended as a gift
  676. <copumpkin> wolfspraul: I'm sure the judge will think that you happily intended it as a gift
  677. * Juffo-Wup continues to compete in the special olympics
  678. <bougyman> I only dealt with a Delaware LLC (from dwolla to mtgox).
  679. <Clipse> xelister : ROFL @ the legal TOS
  680. <copumpkin> and then got bitter and are pretending you hate it :)
  681. <Clipse> thats not directed at the site mtgox.com
  682. <bougyman> never with any overseass company.
  683. <Clipse> you stupid mother fucker
  684. <xelister> Clipse: this is the link which MT himself posted, you stupid retarded as idiot
  685. <xelister> Clipse: this is the link which MT himself posted, you stupid retarded ass idiot
  686. <copumpkin> lol
  687. <wolfspraul> :-)
  688. <xelister> dens you are stupid as fuck, Clipse..
  689. <copumpkin> this conversation is getting more intellectual by the minute
  690. <Clipse> From a legal fking standpoint that link means absolutely horseshit
  691. <wolfspraul> some language deficiencies shining through here
  692. * copumpkin grabs some popcorn
  693. <nelisky> wow
  694. <nelisky> what the
  695. <nelisky> this is even more off topic than -otc talk
  696. <nelisky> :)
  697. <xelister> Clipse: again, this is what MT himself said are the ToS.  So you are arguing against own point.  Bravo =)
  698. * copumpkin isn't allowed into -otc
  699. <copumpkin> so I have to settle for this
  700. <allinvain> better than HBO
  701. <Clipse> xelister : from a legal standpoint it doesnt matter if he said it or not
  702. <mr_gant_> The btc community has become quite a bit uglier since Sunday.
  703. <nelisky> I'm off, just wanted to give a good thumbs up to Mark & crew
  704. <Clipse> that link isnt on the "trading site"
  705. <Clipse> its not directly hooked
  706. <xelister> Clipse: this is where mtgox.com side linked as ToS.
  707. <wolfspraul> xelister: there are very little grounds of any legal action against mtgox right now. anybody who sends money to mtgox should understand that.
  708. <Clipse> it has in fact from legal standpoint nothing to do with it
  709. <xelister> IT WAS DIRECTLY HOOKED
  710. <xelister> BEFORE SITE WAS FROZEN
  711. <nelisky> looking forward for the end of this drama, I really miss mtgox :)
  712. <xelister> JESUS CLIPSE GET your facts streitgh
  713. <shockdiode> nelisky: adam's name isn't "crew"
  714. <copumpkin> any -otc ops in here who have noticed I'm not a mad spammer and could thus promote me a little sooner than my 7 days? :)
  715. <wolfspraul> there are no precedence cases, afaik
  716. <nelisky> there's only mark and adam?
  717. <shockdiode> yep
  718. <Clipse> oh fuck oh fuck , do you see the name MTGOX.com on that form ?
  719. <Clipse> Please for the love of sweet wine
  720. <nelisky> wow, two thumbs up!
  721. <Clipse> tell me that
  722. <Clipse> and you wont
  723. <wolfspraul> and no terms of service, only bits and pieces you think entitle you to something
  724. <Clipse> cause ur a fucking dumb cunt
  725. <Clipse> arguing over shit
  726. <nelisky> Mark, Adam, major cookie points to you
  727. <copumpkin> lol
  728. <shockdiode> loooooool
  729. <shockdiode> it's gettn wacky in here
  730. <xelister> Clipse: mtgox.com side said it is run by Tibanne Co. Ltd.
  731. <wolfspraul> you would do everybody a favor by trying this out in actual legal proceedings, and - keep us posted...
  732. <nelisky> thanks for everything, hope it all goes smoothly tomorrow
  733. <Clipse> DOESNT matter what he said cant you fucking understand how legalities work
  734. <shockdiode> et mon cul c'est du poulet
  735. <Clipse> at the end
  736. <Clipse> it comes down to
  737. <nelisky> (I'll be drinking and having fun by 3am, I hope)
  738. * copumpkin considers implementing dinatural and extranatural transformations in his current major project
  739. <Clipse> can you on paper legally proof that the promise was related to the trading site
  740. <copumpkin> I think that'd be more useful for humanity than this
  741. <Clipse> that TOS doesnt show any mention of mtgox.com
  742. <Clipse> so you are fudged no matter what
  743. <xelister> Clipse: if mtgox.com says that our ToS are on clipse-is-stupid-fuck.com , then the ToS at clipse-is-stupid-fuck.com are binding. You do not get that?
  744. <allinvain> shockdiode, notre poule avec votre cour
  745. <Clipse> xelister : no i dont get how you can be this stupid
  746. <xelister> Clipse: idiot,
  747. <Clipse> I admit that
  748. <shockdiode> your group with my yard?
  749. <shockdiode> wat
  750. <xelister> Clipse: idiot, if sex-toys.com says the GPL licence on GPL.org is their license, is it binding? even ig GPL DO NOT HAVE SEX-TOYS.COM IN THERI LICENCE TEXT?
  751. <allinvain> lol our chicken in your back yard
  752. <allinvain> lol nonsensical french saying
  753. <shockdiode> okeydokey
  754. <shockdiode> :)
  755. <Clipse> xelister : if the license is directly linked on the site yes of course
  756. <Clipse> if its linking externally no
  757. * copumpkin 's IQ is going down by the minute reading this
  758. <Clipse> its not valid!
  759. <mr_gant_> Clipse, xelister, either of you feel like you're getting anywhere?
  760. <xelister> Clipse: mtgox.com fucking linked to the ToS that I, and MT posted.
  761. <copumpkin> at this rate it'll be negative in a couple of minutes
  762. <Clipse> this is external link, it would legally not be valid according to what u want
  763. <Clipse> mr_gant : i think this paint might dry soon.
  764. <xelister> Clipse: lol
  765. <Clipse> LINKED!!
  766. <Clipse> LINKED!
  767. <Clipse> u stupid shit
  768. <Clipse> its not hosted locally on the same server
  769. <copumpkin> goo goo ga ga
  770. <allinvain> so maybe by tomorrow this 'debate" would be over?
  771. <mr_gant_> Might be best to leave it then.
  772. <Clipse> on the same fking domain god!
  773. <wolfspraul> xelister: can you try that argument with your lawyer? seems some people here just don't buy it...
  774. <shockdiode> hey once that paint dries I've got some grass you can watch grow over here
  775. <xelister> Clipse: so if mypaint.com says they are under CC-3, as in copyleft.com/..../ - then you say this is NOT BINDING because the licence text linked is on other domain? LOL?
  776. <copumpkin> gigo gagao
  777. <allinvain> shockdiode, sweet..sign me up bro!
  778. <shockdiode> you got it
  779. <Clipse> xelister : if the contract or license is listed on their domain and on their server
  780. <Clipse> then its legal
  781. <allinvain> thanks! if I don't blink for 10 min can I get 1 BTC?
  782. <Clipse> if its external link that could be externally modified
  783. <Clipse> its not
  784. <xelister> LOL
  785. <shockdiode> lol
  786. <xelister> Clipse: you are fucking idiot, go fuck self with a rake
  787. <shockdiode> i'd give you one if mine weren't all currently tied up somewhere...
  788. <shockdiode> heh
  789. <allinvain> shockdiode, mtgox?
  790. <copumpkin> shockdiode: where could that be!
  791. <allinvain> shockdiode, heh..
  792. <shockdiode> i'm not sayin
  793. <xelister> Clipse: also
  794. <wolfspraul> xelister: sorry but this forum should be moderated and you should be banned
  795. <shockdiode> maybe, maybe not
  796. <Clipse> xelister : want BTC donation ? I can send you 1BTC so you can buy water to wash that sand out of ur vagina
  797. <xelister> Clipse: it is not 'external site' anyway,  both domains are belonging to same company.
  798. <allinvain> shockdiode, hope it's not tied in some hacker's wallet
  799. <copumpkin> wolfspraul: Clipse isn't being much more productive
  800. <copumpkin> wolfspraul: I say get rid of both of them, even though I agree with one of them
  801. <xelister> Clipse: so it was not EXTERNAL LINK (even if we follow your idiotic idea that it has to be internal link)
  802. <shockdiode> no, that's your purview I'm afraid
  803. <allinvain> lool
  804. <Clipse> copumpkin : Im just trying to figure out how to best communicate with paint drying
  805. <allinvain> sad but true
  806. <xelister> wolfspraul: we are not on a forum
  807. <Clipse> and perhaps some of u find this interesting
  808. <shockdiode> don't wanna step on your toes
  809. <wolfspraul> xelister: the beauty of actual legal proceedings (not imagined ones) is that every side gets to make their arguments. and there is typically no limits in creativity (or insanity) in what kind of argument people will be making.
  810. <shockdiode> you've got that move down ;)
  811. <shockdiode> i keed
  812. * copumpkin used to hang out in the original forum
  813. <copumpkin> anyone been there?
  814. <allinvain> heh
  815. <copumpkin> rome is a nice city
  816. <wolfspraul> so instead of getting stuck on a particular argument, it's more helpful to clarify that at the current state of bitoin and mtgox, we are all in uncharted waters legally.
  817. <xelister> Clipse: hey dumbfuck, the link was internal
  818. <Clipse> xelister : prove it?
  819. <Clipse> want to continue with this
  820. <allinvain> hmm..I got it..I shall hack KEvin! muahaha
  821. <wolfspraul> xelister: If I had admin powers, I would have already banned you, that simple :-)
  822. <Clipse> and prove you didnt modify it
  823. <shockdiode> I demand a more creative barrage of insults to go with my popcorn
  824. <shockdiode> you guys were doing great for awhile there
  825. <Clipse> oh and also show me your signature since its a financial contract
  826. <xelister> wolfspraul: If I have admin powers, I would fuck you with a rake again
  827. <wolfspraul> if only for the use of inappropriate language
  828. <Clipse> oh I guess you cant
  829. <copumpkin> shockdiode: Thou paunchy boil-brained clack-dish!
  830. <Clipse> sorry buddy
  831. <copumpkin> Away, you bottle-ale rascal, you filthy bung, away!
  832. <shockdiode> copumpkin: nice work, you get a cookie
  833. <copumpkin> Be put in a cauldron of lead and usurer's grease, amongst a whole million of cutpurses, and there boil like a gammon of bacon that will never be enough.
  834. <shockdiode> hot damn
  835. <Clipse> all I want to know is, should I paint this wall red or blue, eitherway it will still be a fcking wall
  836. <Clipse> sigh
  837. <xelister> Clipse: no problem in proving it, moron, look:
  838. <shockdiode> your'e on fire son
  839. <xelister> whois mtgox.com
  840. <copumpkin> Thou misbegotten whoreson foot-licker!
  841. * Retrieving #mtgox modes...
  842. <midnightmagic> Don't ban xelister, geez, he's one of the more strident supporters of BTC. He's not like all the recent influx of psychopaths we're being plagued with..
  843. <xelister> whois tibanne.com
  844. <xelister> both are
  845. <xelister> owner-street: Suginami-ku / Fleur Tsuzuki 102
  846. <Clipse> same owner can easily have different terms
  847. <xelister> owner-city: Kugayama 5-24-30
  848. <xelister> owner-state: Tokyo-to
  849. <xelister> owner-zip: 168-0082
  850. <copumpkin> Clipse, xelister : You should be women, and yet your beards forbid me to interpret that you are so.
  851. <Clipse> what you cant understand without signed paperwork you have no legs tos tand on if you wanted to sue like a retard
  852. <wolfspraul> xelister: do you want to try your arguments with an actual lawyer?
  853. <copumpkin> be not lost so poorly in your thoughts, the both of you
  854. <Clipse> lmao
  855. <midnightmagic> wolfspraul: Are you going to get a lawyer in here?
  856. <Clipse> : please do
  857. <wolfspraul> afaik mtgox is working on tos, which would be great for everybody, especially after they have been tested in court a little.
  858. <Clipse> do it now
  859. <Clipse> I have more paint to throw on this wall
  860. <Clipse> oh jesus where is the log
  861. <Clipse> PAINT IT
  862. <shockdiode> paint the cat!
  863. <xelister> wolfspraul: all e-shops have online ToS.  And Clipse says for unknown reason mtgox.com online ToS do not count. Even if MT himself said they count. Even if they are both hosted on MT's/mtgox's company domains. He makes no sense.
  864. <shockdiode> fucker deserves it
  865. <wolfspraul> midnightmagic: nah, too expensive. mtgox is run on mutual trust and legal hot air right now, fine by me.
  866. <Clipse> xelister : thats allmost hearsay btw
  867. <Clipse> carefull
  868. <shockdiode> and i'll be going to the stfu corner for a bit, good luck all
  869. <Clipse> id bury u in slumcourt !
  870. <midnightmagic> wolfspraul: Course, he'd have to ID himself so we can verify it with a phone call tomorrow.. :-)
  871. <noagendamarket> mt did link to that tos on the forum
  872. <Clipse> oh and it was a different owner back then
  873. <Clipse> OOOPS
  874. <Clipse> now what uncle fucker
  875. <Clipse> fuck this is so much fun
  876. <copumpkin> Clipse: just out of curiosity, how do you think restaurants work? or stores? no contracts are signed
  877. <xelister> noagendamarket: Clipse says it doesnt count, becaue there is no signed contract.  Retards. How they find their way into out bitcoin community :(
  878. <midnightmagic> In all the time I used MtGox I don't think I ever read (and initially couldn't find) the ToS
  879. <copumpkin> physical ones
  880. <Clipse> copumpkin : you enter property
  881. <noagendamarket> anyway he would just tie you up in japanese court for years
  882. <copumpkin> Clipse: so if it's on the street, you can steal shit?
  883. * xelister enters Clipse's property and punches some brains into his skull
  884. <Clipse> copumpkin : thats not what I said
  885. <midnightmagic> How about a big group hug?
  886. <Clipse> I said it would be straight forward case, there would be visual evidence, recording, pretty obvious truth to the case that can be used
  887. <xelister> that is
  888. <xelister> EXACTLY
  889. <xelister> what you said
  890. <xelister> lying faggot,
  891. <xelister> [07:01:44] <Clipse> what you cant understand without signed paperwork you have no legs tos tand on if you wanted to sue like a retard
  892. <Clipse> Im stating that online case the way this worked isnt so obvious
  893. * copumpkin sighs
  894. <wolfspraul> xelister: ahh. did you notice that the tibanne tos do not talk about financial services, bitcoins, fiduciary obligations, etc?
  895. <Clipse> xelister : thinks he can just stroll in and sue
  896. <Clipse> and have a open and shut case
  897. <copumpkin> oh it definitely wouldn't be open and shut
  898. <Clipse> wolfspraul:  I tried to explain that to him
  899. <Clipse> he was still licking his vagina
  900. <Clipse> i need coffee
  901. <xelister> [07:01:44] <Clipse> what you cant understand without ---------> signed paperwork you have no legs tos <---------------- tand on if you wanted to sue like a retard
  902. * midnightmagic hugs Clipse and xelister..
  903. <copumpkin> but having a big-ass contract and/or TOS isn't necessary to have a legal case. It helps simplify the case a lot, in general
  904. * copumpkin hugs midnightmagic
  905. <xelister> hey Clipse if you enter a fucking taxi, do you sign a paper contract too? moron
  906. <midnightmagic> :-D
  907. <noagendamarket> you could say getting an account is a contract
  908. <wolfspraul> Clipse: sure I am not replying to xelister because I think he will read it or learn, more so that we have some more sane voices too, and not just being drowned out by trolls.
  909. <Clipse> you see this all started with how xelister said ppl should just sue (or something to that effect) and I started off that there is no way you can just go and sue
  910. <noagendamarket> you can contact the rusiian mafia though :)
  911. <xelister> noone said we should all sue mtgox
  912. <wolfspraul> Clipse: he can try, but he won't make it very far :-) if he can even pay the retainers or whatever the first thing his legal counsel would be asking from him...
  913. <Clipse> and yes I started to go wacko jacko cause I am not tolerant of people who ignore obvious shit
  914. <xelister> illetare moron
  915. <noagendamarket> Im sure they will follow the tos
  916. <Clipse> [07:07] xelister: illetare moron   <--- fucking priceless
  917. <Clipse> Im framing that
  918. <Clipse> thanks darling!
  919. <xelister> yeah typos are important here
  920. <Clipse> whahahahaha
  921. <Clipse> its just so fucking ironic
  922. <xelister> clearly we look at things at a bit other level.
  923. <Clipse> nah i allready ignored all you said just after you typed that
  924. <xelister> can I hire you as a type writer?
  925. <Clipse> [07:07] xelister: illetare moron
  926. <Clipse> [07:07] xelister: illetare moron
  927. <Clipse> [07:07] xelister: illetare moron
  928. <Clipse> its just to fucking brilliantly summed up
  929. <xelister> need lot of paper contracts, going to use taxi tomorrow
  930. <Clipse> clearly meant to say illiterate
  931. <Clipse> but your to fucking stupid to insult me
  932. <Clipse> ROFL
  933. <xelister> you'r
  934. <midnightmagic> Or it was deliberate..
  935. <midnightmagic> MORE HUGS!
  936. * midnightmagic hugs you.
  937. <xelister> so we all (non-idiots at least) agree that ToS posted by MT are binding ToS for Mtgox accounts?
  938. <wolfspraul> xelister: bottom line from me: you can try legal action, but from my insignificant experience I would advise you against it, because most likely you will achieve nothing besides spending a lot of money and creating a lot of paperwork. And I'm sure - you will never go there anyway, just trolling here :-)
  939. <xelister> (plus what ever paragraphs where general law overwrites ToS)
  940. <noagendamarket> well he never had a box to say you agree to them
  941. <xelister> wolfspraul: yea that is why I said I would sue in *kevin* place - he has 500,000 USD to gain or more.
  942. <noagendamarket> so no
  943. <xelister> noagendamarket: if there where no ToS, then general laws apply, so even better for customers I suppose
  944. <noagendamarket> I would agree with that
  945. <xelister> normally shops put up ToS not to make problems for themselves, but to restrict the defaul power of customers over such shops etc
  946. <noagendamarket> however sending someone money voluntarily means youre screwed
  947. <xelister> not really
  948. <midnightmagic> I never agreed to ToS. I just hoped and jumped off the cliff after I heard Art used MtGox :-)
  949. <noagendamarket> basically he owns it
  950. <xelister> hey noagendamarket you said you will sell r5970 for 5 BTC? still valid?
  951. <xelister> (assume)   <noagendamarket> yes still valid, xelister
  952. <xelister> noagendamarket: ok, deal
  953. <noagendamarket> lol
  954. <xelister> no, despite no written or electronic contract or ToS
  955. <xelister> if I would send you 5 BTC and not get the good delivered (or easier - send USD)
  956. <xelister> then I'm rather sure it is both civil case, and even for-police case
  957. <xelister> right?
  958. <xelister> s/no,/now,
  959. <noagendamarket> no,,,what goods were you promised ?
  960. <noagendamarket> its not like mt gox sells shoes
  961. <xelister> if you would promise to sell radeon 5970 for 5 btc
  962. <noagendamarket> they dont sell anything
  963. <xelister> they are company making legall profit, and they are registered as money exchange or similar service
  964. <xelister> they are making profit on what?
  965. <xelister> not on donations, they are not non-for-profit organization
  966. <Clipse> are we solo dancing? Im back..
  967. <Clipse> ooooh again a retard statement
  968. <Clipse> Donations can go to anyone
  969. <xelister> so it is on sales. Or fee for using the service (successfully)
  970. <noagendamarket> if they dont refund your trade fees then you might have a case
  971. <xelister> I would say it is their core business to either
  972. <xelister> 1) sell bitcoins
  973. <xelister> or
  974. <xelister> 2) provide service of automatic trading
  975. <Clipse> xelister : so you make the rules now?
  976. <Clipse> should apply for job at mtgox with your knowledge
  977. <xelister> in either case, kevin used this service as always, but this time the service's part of deal was not keept
  978. <noagendamarket> theres plenty of cases where other markets roll it back
  979. <noagendamarket> no one gets sued for it
  980. <xelister> while you can rise objections of @0.01 sell being ridiculous and so on,  there is some case to consider
  981. <Clipse> xelister:  I got some wise words for you, BEING STUBBORN DOESNT MAKE YOU RIGHT.
  982. <Clipse> and its all in caps for easy reading
  983. <noagendamarket> if the price was $5 now youd be clamouring for a rollback too
  984. <xelister> there where cases with e-shops accidentally putting say HDDs for 1 USD or so. Their settled or complied
  985. <noagendamarket> lol
  986. <Clipse> xelister : thats before anyone used e&oe
  987. <Clipse> add that part
  988. <Clipse> and you can do whatever the fuck you want
  989. <Clipse> thats be resolved ages ago
  990. <xelister> noagendamarket: this other places that did rollback, didn't they had clever ToS for that occassion
  991. <Clipse> before you could reach the keyboard to type porn on google
  992. <noagendamarket> I dont know the situation
  993. * kB is now known as Guest3950
  994. <sarlangg> Have you buys received confirmation emails for the claim process where they verify you own your account yet?
  995. <xelister> noagendamarket: that MT's ToS ... if it would said like
  996. <xelister> "if we are hacked then we can unroll what we see fit"  then they would be clear probably
  997. <Clipse> xelister : I think I should sue you now, I had this vague idea that if I communicate with you it would be a binding promise that I wont get assaulted by shitty arguments.
  998. <xelister> but that ToS just contained general Force Majeure which will not apply (it was their fault, preventable)
  999. <Clipse> you laid a false claim, who should I mail the lawsuit ?
  1000. <xelister> Clipse: you did not paid me to talk to me, dumbnut
  1001. <Clipse> I did
  1002. <Clipse> in valuable time
  1003. <xelister> if you paid someone else to do so, sue them
  1004. <Clipse> time = money
  1005. <Clipse> I lost money
  1006. <midnightmagic> sarlangg: I haven't yet.
  1007. <Clipse> I sue you
  1008. <noagendamarket> If you didnt trade and suddenly there are bitcoins missing that would be grounds for something
  1009. <sarlangg> midnightmagic:  Thanks, was wonderig if it was just me.
  1010. <sarlangg> wondering*
  1011. <xelister> Clipse: you are probably too slow to understand this, but mtgox.com was operating as a company and taking money, while I'm not
  1012. <xelister> other then that your example would make some remote sense
  1013. <Clipse> xelister : what more do you want, read mtgox statement
  1014. <Clipse> We realize that it will take many steps and vastly improved security to regain the trust of our users and the bitcoin community, but for now as a token of our gratitude for the extreme patience our users have shown, and as a way of saying we sincerely sorry for the breach of security that lead to the sell-off, we will be reducing trade fees to 0.3% (from 0.65%) for two weeks following Mt.Gox's reopening.
  1015. <Clipse> Users who's trades were effectively cancelled during the the sell-off will be able to trade for free for 1 month following the reopening, and will also receive a free subscription to our upcoming 2-Step security authentication feature for as long as they hold their account.
  1016. <Clipse> Isnt that as professional as it can be ?
  1017. <Clipse> cancelled trades 1 month free trading
  1018. <xelister> noagendamarket: but this is the case. Kevin traded, wants to take out the coins system confirms he has... and now the coins will be missing (rollback)
  1019. <Clipse> jesus now u think I should complain ? I had no trades
  1020. <Clipse> god please drown urself
  1021. <xelister> Clipse: we are talking hypotetically about laws and ToS to learn something, not just bashing or defending mtgox.com case, as you probably think we are, close minded person you
  1022. <Clipse> xelister : oh I didnt see the TOS for our discussion
  1023. <Clipse> I could only make assumptions
  1024. <Clipse> you seem to be good at that
  1025. <noagendamarket> If I find a bag of money on the side of the road I dont get to keep it honestly
  1026. <xelister> noagendamarket: yes
  1027. <noagendamarket> you cant sue the person who owns the cash and expect to own it then
  1028. <Clipse> noagendamarket : this is all "hyptetically" according to xelister please dont divert the "hyptetical" discussion.
  1029. <xelister> noagendamarket: what if you go to a shop and see some painting for 50$. You buy it. It turns out it was picasso, and shop owner fucked up 1) allowed prices to be messed up  2) sold you the picture with such prices
  1030. <noagendamarket> If kevin thinks he owns it then fuck him
  1031. <Clipse> xelister : you must return the painting and get back your $50 from the owner.
  1032. <xelister> with the painting too?  You say you do not own painting in above example?
  1033. <Clipse> the shop owner that is
  1034. <noagendamarket> althought a reward for returning the l;oot would be nice
  1035. <Clipse> its pretty standard stuff
  1036. <Clipse> mtgox is doing exactly that, hes returning the "painting" and returning the buyers money.
  1037. <xelister> right we all agree to moneybag-loot, but this is really more of shop with messed up price-tags problem
  1038. <noagendamarket> hes getting one...free trades
  1039. <Clipse> oh and hes giving freebees
  1040. <Clipse> hes doing more than the normal trade would be
  1041. <midnightmagic> Actually if the seller didn't know and deliberately priced it at $10, and there's no fraud, customer keeps painting. Antique dealers do that all the time
  1042. <xelister> Clipse: you do look like some retard hired to spam pro-mtgox support messages... can't engage in constructive broad discussion then go fuck self with a rake
  1043. <Clipse> xelister : its not possible with you , cause you want me and others to agree to your ideology from every new angle
  1044. <Clipse> you sir are full of shit
  1045. <Clipse> we started arguing about what mtgox should have done, then you decided the argument is "hypotetical" and not about mtgox nemore
  1046. <noagendamarket> I am pissed for the private emails leaking out
  1047. <xelister> midnightmagic: so if seller made the mistake, then indeed he should execute the trade - and it is all on him to recover his mistake, right?
  1048. <Clipse> what the fuck is wrong with you
  1049. <noagendamarket> not so much the rolled back trades
  1050. * Looking up Clipse user info...
  1051. <Clipse> xelister : if the police approach the buyer of the $50 painting sold by the shop priced at $50 (correctly or not) then it will be returned as original stolen goods if declared by the certified painting original owner
  1052. <Clipse> this is standard stuff, why do you feel the urge to change the normal procedure?
  1053. <sharkasgo> greetings
  1054. <sharkasgo> its a wonderful day
  1055. <Clipse> If the product was sold mispriced by the Original owner(read: not a stolen then sold product) the price would usually stand.
  1056. <Clipse> This is not what happened with mtgox, situation described first is related to the mtgox situation.
  1057. <xelister> Clipse: yes it would be returned,  and the shop owner should return at least the price
  1058. <sharkasgo> a transaction requires the consent of both parties. in this case, the seller did not authorize the sale, therefore the transaction is null. taking the coin would be an accessory to the hack
  1059. <Clipse> xelister : correct! ding ding
  1060. <xelister> but also due to his mistake the buyer lost awesome deal
  1061. <Clipse> and this shop owner is returning the price
  1062. <xelister> who covers for that
  1063. <midnightmagic> xelister: If the seller priced it at $10, and the painting was rung through, and customer did no fraud, I'm pretty sure customer keeps painting. Now, if another customer marked it down first.. Well, stolen goods.
  1064. <Clipse> "awesome deal" doesnt matter
  1065. <Ooofo> Jesus. Dear guys who have no non-bitcoin trading experience: Flash crashes and subsequent rollbacks happen all the god damn time. There's an extreme precedent. I'm pissed at Mt. Gox because I had low buys, but anyone who has ever been through a flash crash before knows the routine
  1066. <xelister> but buyer had lost a painting actuall WORTH 100,000 USD. Lost it to police, due to SHOP fault. Should shop return the 50$ he earned, or should he return the WORTH - 100,000$ to the buyer
  1067. <Clipse> Ooofo : carefull dildoboy might try to hurt your feelings.
  1068. <Clipse> xelister : $50 aka sale is voided
  1069. <Clipse> cause sale wasnt LEGAL
  1070. <midnightmagic> xelister: The analogy fails because another customer is interfering..
  1071. <xelister> Ooofo: who uses rollbacks? Do they have speciall ToS for this?
  1072. <Clipse> you cant make a legal trade with illegal goods
  1073. <xelister> midnightmagic: another customer?
  1074. <Clipse> watafak
  1075. <midnightmagic> Sorry.. Criminal.
  1076. <Clipse> xelister : are you a troll out of a fresh bush?
  1077. <Clipse> your either extremely retarded or absolutely ignorant
  1078. <Clipse> id hope for the latter
  1079. <xelister> Clipse: you write many words by little sense. Shut up the fuck, you must
  1080. <Clipse> I write english, you speak baby.
  1081. <Clipse> gooo goo gagga english
  1082. <bougyman> xelister: you met anyone who's recovered yet?
  1083. * csshih burps
  1084. <csshih> hai gais
  1085. <xelister> bougyman: noone is recovered, they announced afaik
  1086. <bougyman> xelister: ah.
  1087. <xelister> midnightmagic: hm?
  1088. <Clipse> I actually hope mtgox keep xelister's total booty of 0.20 BTC
  1089. <Clipse> want to see xelister fight over it on fox news
  1090. <Clipse> with pop corn and slush puppy
  1091. <xelister> midnightmagic: where exactly does analogy not hold?
  1092. <csshih> xelister is a cool guy
  1093. <csshih> not sure wtf you're talking about
  1094. <Clipse> csshih : he might be cool, but hes dumb as turd
  1095. <csshih> no he's not
  1096. <bougyman> xelister: you're getting a lot more profane tonight.
  1097. <bougyman> have some chai tea.
  1098. <bougyman> er chai
  1099. <indio007> you can't pass better title than you have is all you need to know
  1100. <bougyman> damnit I hate it when people say chai tea, and I did it.
  1101. <Clipse> csshih : ok hes terribly misunderstood
  1102. <midnightmagic> xelister: Because another person stole the paintings and marked them down first.
  1103. <Clipse> do yourself the trouble and scroll all the way up
  1104. <Clipse> from start of argument, he position on the situation
  1105. <Clipse> and where we are now
  1106. <Mr2001> xelister: the buyer can't lose something he never actually owned
  1107. <Clipse> no progress, absolutely dillusional
  1108. <indio007> you can't pass better title than you have is all you need to know
  1109. <go1dfish> anyone else notice this?
  1110. <go1dfish> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/i6un9/more_mtgox_conspiracy_theories_the_43210987654321/
  1111. <bougyman> yeah
  1112. <bougyman> it's reddit, though
  1113. <Ooofo> Here's a good article on non-bitcoin flash crashes and rollbacks: http://tinyurl.com/6k8vg4c
  1114. <indio007> the thief never had a property interest to sell
  1115. <bougyman> so bigtime grains of salt.
  1116. <xelister> midnightmagic: since all the stealing, and re-selling-stolen, are all allowed by fault of the shop, should not the shop take on itself most part of resulting problems like need to return the painting that was worth 500,000
  1117. <go1dfish> bougyman: I was speaking more to the fact that the balance of the wallet in the transaction was 432109.87654321
  1118. <Mr2001> xelister: the shop is holding the painting on consignment for the actual owner, who has not authorized them to sell it for peanuts
  1119. <go1dfish> or, read backwards 12345678901234
  1120. <Clipse> xelister : how many times are you going to ask and receive the same answer?
  1121. <midnightmagic> xelister: As the owner of an actual retail store, absolutely not, since it's not possible for me to pat down everyone who enters to make sure they dont have a pricing gun! :-)
  1122. <midnightmagic> Former owner..
  1123. <Mr2001> midnightmagic: someone priced the store at 0.01 and bought it from you?
  1124. <Clipse> this is the 5th or 6th time you ask the same question, receive the correct answers and just keep firing it again.
  1125. <xelister> if BTCs would be stolen from credit card, then sent to mtgox, and so on, then it seems obvious mtgox (esp. if ordered by police, but not only) is free to block such trades and reverse them with no extra recompensations of course
  1126. <Mr2001> yes, shouldn't they?
  1127. <xelister> midnightmagic: ^ but this case is different, as here the mtgox ALSO allowed the steal in first place. You see difference?  It is like coming to car salon that sels cars for 100 usd "sorry sir we messed up prises"  "well thoug luck, I keep this car suckers - LEARN TO KEEP ORDER ON PRICES guys" kind of thing
  1128. <xelister> *typos
  1129. <Clipse> the onus is on the buyer ALLWAYS with stolen property
  1130. <Clipse> not the middle men
  1131. <Mr2001> you'll find that many stores won't honor a sales transaction for a hacked price
  1132. <Clipse> if you buy something, "to good to be true comes to mind" then its your problem as the receiver
  1133. <midnightmagic> xelister: No, because the cars were stolen and marked down by another douchebag without authority to do so.
  1134. <xelister> Mr2001: I know some shops do order prices resulting from own mistakes for example
  1135. <xelister> *do honor
  1136. <Clipse> xelister : no shop will honor a product mispriced for $5mil
  1137. <bougyman> go1dfish: yeah.
  1138. <bougyman> crazysauce
  1139. <xelister> Clipse: this is a bullshit law, and fortunatell does not apply to BTC. Rememer they where @0.20  not so long ago
  1140. <Clipse> xelister : so now you decide what law applies and doesnt applies?
  1141. <bougyman> i didn't have a whole lot of btc in there, but quite a bit of USD
  1142. * Fairuser|AFK is now known as Fairuser
  1143. <Clipse> can you stick to one story?
  1144. <xelister> there was person orderd by court
  1145. <bougyman> i've not heard anyone say the USD is safe, but i'm hoping it is.
  1146. <Clipse> and not cherry pick please
  1147. <xelister> to honor a sale misspriced by ~20,000 USD.  A private person, not company.  (he sold his car for like 500 usd by mistake instead 20,000)
  1148. <noagendamarket> the 500 000 never existed in the first place imo
  1149. <Clipse> you just said, "bullshit law" and by your own decision it "wont apply to BTC"
  1150. <Clipse> then you rip other laws out, "general laws" as you said, which do apply.
  1151. <Clipse> what the fuck dude?
  1152. <Mr2001> xelister: in this case, the item was mispriced by a malicious third party who had no right to sell them, not by some mistake of the owner
  1153. <Ooofo> okay, I have a problem with people treating an exchange as a counter-party to trades
  1154. <midnightmagic> Eh, doesn't matter. Nobody's out anything but time, so who cares..
  1155. <bougyman> i'm not treating them like that.
  1156. <xelister> Clipse: I can buy grossly under priced BTCs if I like / find a sucker, and no-one should block this possiblity. (not talking about hacking here)
  1157. <bougyman> i'm treating them like either a money escrow or money transmitter, take your pick.,
  1158. <Mr2001> the exchange facilitated the trade, sort of like how a hand truck facilitates stealing a refrigerator, but just because you can take possession doesn't mean you take ownership
  1159. <Ooofo> you want to see price-setting? rather than roll back to a time, most exchanges would just undo trades below a specific price
  1160. <Clipse> xelister : yes you can, and if its stolen BTC it would be wrong. same goes to stolen BTC on exchange is wrong, luckily MTGOX can revert it to correct the wrong.
  1161. <Clipse> lets remove any legal jargon and stick to right/wrong argument
  1162. <xelister> Ooofo: well we sure know what will be first paragraph definatell in new mtgox's ToS =)
  1163. <Clipse> it was wrong, and in this situation mtgox can fix the wrong and make it right.
  1164. <midnightmagic> Ooofo: Got any specific examples I can go verify myself?
  1165. <Ooofo> ToS is not important in comparison to standard practices.
  1166. <Clipse> if it was a straight BTC deal you had no recourse, we actually do with the exchange.
  1167. <sharkasgo> if you believe in property rights, you favor a rollback. if you don't respect property rights, you prefer to let the thieves get away with the loot
  1168. <xelister> "We can do ROLL BACKS when a) we are hacked  b) .... c) ... d) ..."   - sheeesh someone should think of that when crossed 1 MILION USD volume ;)
  1169. <bougyman> Clipse: they cannot fix it for all, only for some.
  1170. <bougyman> some lucky few got away with stuff, unless they have a time machine.
  1171. * jetcore is now known as jetcore_
  1172. <Clipse> bougyman : for all, you couldnt buy stolen shit in the first place(or incorrect values that doesnt exist which would be paid out from other members)
  1173. <bougyman> and some malevolent few, too.
  1174. <Ooofo> yeah, midnightmagic, look at that link I posted a second ago: http://tinyurl.com/6k8vg4c
  1175. <Clipse> bougyman: mtgox is covering out of their pockets
  1176. <bougyman> what?
  1177. <Clipse> he said so himself
  1178. <Clipse> the few that went out they have to cover
  1179. <Clipse> it wasnt that much apparently
  1180. <xelister> mtgox is making like 10,000 ? 100,000 ? usd so they really should
  1181. <midnightmagic> Ooofo: Also, these aren't securities, I'm not so sure it quite applies.. These are math results.. Honestly I'm not even completely sure we can "own" them.
  1182. <Clipse> xelister : who are you to decide how much they can make and then how much they must put aside for others?
  1183. <bougyman> midnightmagic: the site used to say "Buy and sell the commodity known as Bitcoin"
  1184. <Clipse> even if they made a billion a day
  1185. <xelister> Clipse: batman
  1186. <Clipse> they have no obligation to give out freebees of stolen funds
  1187. <bougyman> i thought that was risky, inviting Commodity Trading regulators.
  1188. <Clipse> xelister: CATWOMEN
  1189. <xelister> you sure do sound like one
  1190. <Mr2001> anyway... no one has gotten claim approval emails yet, have they?
  1191. <noagendamarket> no
  1192. <Clipse> and you sure sound like a turd dropping
  1193. <bougyman> no
  1194. <xelister> Mr2001: no one was yet actually processed
  1195. <bougyman> don't worry, they're doing all they can, just be patient.
  1196. <xelister> Clipse: well perhaps, I never talked to urmom
  1197. <midnightmagic> Ooofo: Cool link!!
  1198. <Clipse> xelister : she doesnt hang out in the slums you live
  1199. <xelister> bougyman: so the deadline is friday it seems
  1200. <bougyman> what deadline?
  1201. <Mr2001> ok. when should we contact support if it hasn't arrived... by the time trading opens?
  1202. <xelister> bougyman: /topic
  1203. <Clipse> Mr2001: within next 24hrs you will receive email
  1204. <bougyman> you're gonna believe a timeline they present?
  1205. <Clipse> exchange goes back operational within 25hrs roughly from now
  1206. <bougyman> sorry, i lost the faith in their timeline predictions.
  1207. <xelister> bougyman: 3rd times the charm, if not Im going ballistic
  1208. <sharkasgo> the 432109.87654321 output was created on the 12th.. a week before the incident
  1209. <copumpkin> MagicalTux: you around?
  1210. <copumpkin> MagicalTux: the latest update should be "Users whose", not "Users who's"
  1211. <midnightmagic> I wonder how quickly SHA256 is going to be broken now haha..
  1212. <Clipse> copumpkin : hes french, atleast hes not retreating ;)
  1213. <xelister> you're using sha512
  1214. <Clipse> tehehehe damn had to :D
  1215. <copumpkin> Clipse: :)
  1216. <xelister> isnt MagicalTux JP
  1217. <copumpkin> no
  1218. <copumpkin> he lives there
  1219. <midnightmagic> I'm not using sha512. Anyway it's all the same sha2 family
  1220. <xelister> lol must be hard time communicating.  Don't all FR people speak only fr =)
  1221. <noagendamarket> lol so now we have to pay mt gox for a secure account ?
  1222. <Clipse> xelister : no
  1223. <copumpkin> the academie francaise would not approve of these other languages being learned
  1224. <noagendamarket> wtf dudes
  1225. <Mr2001> some frenchmen can speak english, but they die a little inside each time
  1226. <xelister> noagendamarket: pay for a secure account ?
  1227. <Clipse> noagendamarket : just for the absolute last resort secure method if you want it
  1228. <noagendamarket> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=21405.msg268477#msg268477
  1229. <Clipse> they are giving ultimate extreme security options , most users wont require that, its for the absolute dumb retards.
  1230. <xelister> OMLET DU FROMAGE
  1231. <copumpkin> the baladeur and the ordinateur, and even the magnétoscope
  1232. * copumpkin tries to come up with a suitably french name for bitcoin
  1233. <xelister> Clipse: so you applied? got a /written contract/ this time? ;)
  1234. <noagendamarket> Clipse shouldnt all accounts have that ?
  1235. <copumpkin> monnaieoctet?
  1236. <Clipse> xelister : on my cock
  1237. <xelister> noagendamarket: really mtgox's approach to security is scarrying...
  1238. <bougyman> retarded people are smart enough to pay for security?
  1239. <MtGox_Adam> copumpkin: corrected the "Who's"
  1240. <darin_> they security they are talking about the the fob
  1241. <bougyman> that seems counterintuitive.
  1242. <copumpkin> MtGox_Adam: oh cool, didn't notice you here. Thanks!
  1243. <Clipse> noagendamarket : afaik it cost them money, I dont know.. really dont care, just keep the database safe and my account will be safe
  1244. <MtGox_Adam> copumpkin: thanks for the heads up :)
  1245. <Mr2001> when did the support site change from green to yellow?
  1246. <copumpkin> monnaienumérique?
  1247. <copumpkin> MtGox_Adam: np
  1248. <MtGox_Adam> mr2001: I changed it about 45 minutes ago
  1249. <midnightmagic> Doh, where's the update?
  1250. <copumpkin> monnaienumérique seems about right
  1251. <Clipse> Mr2001 : exactly 24minutes ago
  1252. <Clipse> oh sorry i meant
  1253. <Clipse> 42
  1254. <Clipse> ;D
  1255. <copumpkin> MtGox_Adam: are you french?
  1256. <sharkasgo> kind of funny that the 432K was moved on the 19th without a transaction fee
  1257. <xelister> Mr2001: it matures
  1258. <MtGox_Adam> copumpkin: Negative.
  1259. <Clipse> MtGox_Adam : are you cuban ?
  1260. <xelister> sharkasgo: ha. Yea we can have it in next block. Or week. Whatever
  1261. <Clipse> lining up stupid questions
  1262. <Clipse> ;)
  1263. <MtGox_Adam> Clipse: I wish, but no
  1264. <Mr2001> xelister: but autumn isn't for another few months
  1265. <copumpkin> MtGox_Adam: was hoping for some native validation of my new name for bitcoin
  1266. <copumpkin> :(
  1267. <Clipse> MtGox_Adam : are you female
  1268. <Clipse> need to bitcoin forum post all answer cause if there isnt answers it means mtgox is running according to them.
  1269. <xelister> MtGox_Adam: did you all got drunk on sake when you realized you don't know first thing about security
  1270. <Clipse> so spit out all answers asap ;D
  1271. <MtGox_Adam> Clipse: Depends, will I get me anything?
  1272. <Clipse> MtGox_Adam : it will get you a corner on longstreet with your name on it :)
  1273. <Mr2001> well, glad things are on track, I hope everything is right in my account when it's back up, but I trust mtgox will make it right if not
  1274. <bgupta> MtGox_Adam/MagicalTux: Knock on wood, but congrats on the relatively rapid turn around.
  1275. <sharkasgo> yeah you guys are doing a fine job under extraordinary circumstances
  1276. <midnightmagic> Adam: We were shaking our fists at the screen here when Bruce said Canadians were the "same thing"
  1277. <midnightmagic> Boo! Hiss! lol
  1278. <noagendamarket> arent they ?
  1279. <noagendamarket> :)
  1280. <xelister> heh intersting idea,
  1281. <xelister> what would had happened
  1282. <midnightmagic> \kb noagendamarket
  1283. <xelister> if the 1000 $ / person-day limit would not be in place
  1284. <noagendamarket> then we could money launder with impunity
  1285. <noagendamarket> *hypothetically
  1286. <xelister> kevin would get 400,000 BTC
  1287. <MagicalTux> he would probably have hit the limit of bitcoins we keep online
  1288. <xelister> would run for Mexico... MT would run for China? Taiwan?
  1289. * xelister calls profesor for 1 what-if machine
  1290. <noagendamarket> someone would be wearing concrete boots over that Im sure :)
  1291. <MagicalTux> I don't want to imagine the bitcoin market once the japanese mafia finds out they can use this for a lot of things
  1292. <indio007> just the japanese mafia?
  1293. <indio007> wait till some politician finds out
  1294. <indio007> they won't have to hide their kickbacks and bribery anymore
  1295. <noagendamarket> lol
  1296. <noagendamarket> I wonder if there will ever be a "bitcoin mafia ?
  1297. <xelister> --------------------------
  1298. <xelister> wait
  1299. <indio007> need me to protect your miners?
  1300. <xelister> HOLD THE HORSES DJ
  1301. <xelister> Mark Karpeles, the chief executive of Tibanne Co of Tokyo, which operates Mt Gox, told Thomson Reuters that the company was not averse to cooperating with authorities. "As a company handling Bitcoins, it is not our intention of doing anything illegal," Karpeles said via email on Tuesday. "We sent a letter to the Drug Enforcement Administration to address this issue."
  1302. <indio007> of course you do
  1303. <xelister> mtgox leaked our userbase + emails + passwords
  1304. <xelister> and now they bring in DEA ?!
  1305. <sixEch0> Why dea?
  1306. <indio007> silkroad
  1307. <sixEch0> Srsly?
  1308. <notallhere> thats just fucked up...
  1309. <xelister> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=17693.0;all
  1310. <noagendamarket> hmm
  1311. <xelister> well wait, that is just letter with explanation
  1312. <xelister> but. hmm....
  1313. <noagendamarket> was "the auditor" a dea agent ?
  1314. <bougyman> the dea are idiots in the cyber arena
  1315. <xelister> calling mr. Green Thumb
  1316. <xelister> from CYPRESS hill
  1317. * xelister has 4 cypresses and buying more
  1318. <sharkasgo> libertarian holiday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saWCZVggQAs
  1319. <go1dfish> MagicalTux: 432109.87654321 is that pattern random, or was it chosen deliberately?
  1320. <go1dfish> by patern I mean the fact that it looks like a countdown
  1321. <sharkasgo> probably deliberate so it would be easy to search for
  1322. <MagicalTux> go1dfish: it's deliberate
  1323. <MagicalTux> want me to do it again? :)
  1324. <go1dfish> MagicalTux: yes, if you could send like a tiny amount to an address someone throws out
  1325. <go1dfish> that would do a huge amount to restore confidence
  1326. <MagicalTux> I broke out the 432109.87654321 already
  1327. <MagicalTux> but I'll make a new one
  1328. <UberCookies> I wonder if I've reclaimed my account correctly...
  1329. <xelister> do .424242
  1330. <MagicalTux> xelister: 424242.42424242 ?
  1331. <xelister> yeap
  1332. <go1dfish> just need to see a transaction happen from an account with a huge balance with an amount listed here to an address listed here
  1333. <MagicalTux> connecting the offline storage and decrypting on a firewalled system~
  1334. <go1dfish> 1AbTRVrRYGri1sZvqHBadnXaCHkuXJtV5N
  1335. <MagicalTux> I'll make the transaction and push it manually
  1336. <notallhere> this would completely restore a lot of peoples faith
  1337. <go1dfish> MagicalTux: post an address and I'll send you an amount
  1338. <Ooofo> MagicalTux, to get the "free month of trading" thing, will that be automatically done based on rolled back trades or do we have to apply somehow?
  1339. <MagicalTux> Ooofo: it'll be automatic
  1340. <Ooofo> awesome
  1341. <MagicalTux> I got all the data of all the affected users here
  1342. <MagicalTux> go1dfish: no, not practical
  1343. <go1dfish> ok
  1344. <MagicalTux> go1dfish: I'll send 424242.42424242 bitcoins from a bunch of 50kBTC addresses (and maybe on 42kBTC) to one
  1345. <MagicalTux> well, two actually
  1346. <MagicalTux> one will get the 424k, the other one will get the change
  1347. <go1dfish> ok, yeah all transactions get split that way as I understand it
  1348. <MagicalTux> ready guys? Don't come after me claiming we have no coins after that
  1349. <MagicalTux> hopefully I'll be able to work without getting too much disturbed after that~
  1350. <go1dfish> yeah, ready
  1351. <nanotube> MagicalTux: wasn't your last tx 432K btc? lost 8k?
  1352. <geist_> no
  1353. <geist_> thats just the amount someone suggested
  1354. <geist_> (the 424242)
  1355. <nanotube> ah
  1356. <MagicalTux> 42 is the answer
  1357. <go1dfish> to everything
  1358. <sixEch0> 42 is my password!
  1359. <noagendamarket> lol
  1360. <nanotube> hehe ic
  1361. <go1dfish> 42 is the solution to every block to
  1362. <mabus> wait what's going on, is he proving he has our bitcoins still?
  1363. <go1dfish> shit I just ruined the economy
  1364. <mabus> what does this help
  1365. <geist_> theres a lot of people crying wolf saying gox doesnt have their btc anymore
  1366. <wumpus> don't send them to the bitcoin eater please :)
  1367. <go1dfish> mabus: tux is shuffling large numbers of bitcoins to show they are still under his control
  1368. <MagicalTux> anyway, going to send to 1eHhgW6vquBY... the 424242.42424242 btc
  1369. <geist_> ok
  1370. <MagicalTux> mh, forgot I cannot get connections from here, IRC is blocked
  1371. <nanotube> MagicalTux: how is it going with the account claims btw?
  1372. <kingzzz> please dont accidently loose it all
  1373. <cuddlefish> well then
  1374. <mabus> remember to transfer the 424k to proper address of 1R1QyDyYdV479bGxNGMVLEbhU3nEhx6u2
  1375. <dwebb> haha, raped.
  1376. <nanotube> mabus: lol
  1377. <dwebb> raping bitcoins
  1378. <MagicalTux> mabus: I can't copy/paste from here to over there
  1379. <wumpus> kingzzz: +1, imo it's better if he doesn't play around with his stash
  1380. <MagicalTux> it's not the same computer, not the same network
  1381. <mabus> i'll read it over the phone if you want, i'm a nice guy
  1382. <geist_> lol
  1383. <MagicalTux> anyway
  1384. <dwebb> mtgox back open on the 24th to continue raping you...
  1385. <dwebb> lube up your e-ass
  1386. <mabus> honest rape is fine
  1387. <gmaxwell> meanwhile, I expect lulzsec to tweet that they're about to move 424242.42424242 btc ;)
  1388. <noagendamarket> lol
  1389. <MagicalTux> xD
  1390. <noagendamarket> that would be funny
  1391. <dwebb> 46 and 2 just ahead of me
  1392. <dwebb> anyone here ever seen tom wopat's hairy butthole?
  1393. <dwebb> all sweaty and sticky
  1394. <dwebb> rim it!
  1395. <notallhere> so wait you can't connect to the machine with the bitcoins, sorry im confused, it seemed like it was no problem before
  1396. <dwebb> i'd stick a cracker between his ass cheeks and sop up all that sauce
  1397. <sixEch0> And now...?
  1398. <MagicalTux> notallhere: who are you talking to ?
  1399. <cuddlefish> dwebb: ... wut
  1400. <notallhere> you MagicalTux
  1401. <dwebb> cuddlefish: haha
  1402. <MagicalTux> notallhere: the bitcoin client is not getting connections, that's a usual thing
  1403. <mabus> socks4
  1404. <nanotube> MagicalTux: i run with -noirc, usually connects faster.
  1405. <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: upgrade .23 to solve that, FWIW.
  1406. <gmaxwell> (there is a connect bug prior to .23 which can make every failed attempt take minutes)
  1407. <dwebb> try starting bitcoin like this: ./bitcoin -addnode= -addnode= -addnode= -addnode= -addnode= -addnode=
  1408. <gmaxwell> dwebb: if you addr.dat is full of crappy non-working nodes already it can still get hung up on the first one it tries.
  1409. <dwebb> lies.
  1410. * nanotube is sad nobody is wielding the banhammer
  1411. <wumpus> indeed
  1412. <dwebb> i need to go squeeze out a bitshit
  1413. <MagicalTux> I got one, here
  1414. <MagicalTux> MtGox_Adam got one too
  1415. <gmaxwell> dwebb: facts. but fixed in .23. (not suggesting that MagicalTux go about upgrading the uber wallet right now though)
  1416. <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: I always wait at least 1 month before upgrading bitcoin
  1417. <MagicalTux> or port patch manually
  1418. <Clipse> MagicalTux : can you clarify something for the bitcoin forum people, the security issue. Is it going to cost a fee (once off or monthly) for the security addon for users?
  1419. <MagicalTux> oh
  1420. <MagicalTux> got one connection
  1421. <MagicalTux> Clipse: you mean the sms thing ?
  1422. <gmaxwell> the connect patch is pretty straight forward. I've was running it for weeks prior to .23 ... and it even applies to way old code.
  1423. -ChanServ- Invalid parameters for REGISTER.
  1424. -ChanServ- Syntax: REGISTER <#channel>
  1425. <Clipse> nope refering to the "free security addon for people who had trades open for a lifetime of their account"
  1426. <Clipse> that looks like its not free for other members
  1427. <Clipse> what do you refer to with that?
  1428. -ChanServ- #bitcoin-mtgox is already registered to rasengan.
  1429. <mabus> they're the ones that get their passwords properly encrypted?
  1430. <noagendamarket> lol
  1431. <cuddlefish> mabus: 0.1 BTC per byte of hash
  1432. <noagendamarket> my bank has a token that costs $25
  1433. <Clipse> hah nehow let MagicalTux answer before you lots spray your diarea all over this channel ;)
  1434. <cuddlefish> MagicalTux: Yeah, do OTP auth! it's really easy to implement if you can email/snail-mail stuff
  1435. <MagicalTux> cuddlefish: working on stuff
  1436. <noagendamarket> even google sends me a postcard :)
  1437. <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: oh fond memories of s/key...
  1438. <noagendamarket> I hope its not rsa key :0
  1439. <MagicalTux> I checked RSA key just to see
  1440. <MagicalTux> it's 500kUSD setup, and 100kUSD per year
  1441. <MagicalTux> not viable
  1442. <gmaxwell> They're rather expensive.
  1443. <gmaxwell> yea.
  1444. <cuddlefish> MagicalTux: christ
  1445. <MagicalTux> cuddlefish: ?
  1446. <mabus> fuck bitcoins, i should sell rsa tokens
  1447. <cuddlefish> MagicalTux: mail out arduinos with LCDs and seeded PRNGS! it'd be cheaper
  1448. <nanotube> i vote for gpg auth via signed or encrypted otp :)
  1449. <gmaxwell> there is competition which is less expensive, e.g. http://www.cryptocard.com/
  1450. <noagendamarket> nanotube you would :)
  1451. <MagicalTux> cuddlefish: a bit too big
  1452. <[Author]> MagicalTux: How about http://code.google.com/p/google-authenticator/ ?
  1453. <nanotube> noagendamarket: :)
  1454. <gmaxwell> But you're still talking on the order of $50 tokens all in all.
  1455. <cuddlefish> MagicalTux: D:
  1456. <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: Gosh, if only there was a way to pay for things over the internet
  1457. <noagendamarket> lawl
  1458. <Clipse> ye like to transfer shit
  1459. <Clipse> oh well
  1460. <Clipse> ;)
  1461. <MagicalTux> mh
  1462. <MagicalTux> the bitcoin client rebroadcasts transactions randomly every how ?
  1463. <nanotube> MagicalTux: 30-60 min, iirc
  1464. <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: well if you really want something personally buy a yubico and load it with a long random password.
  1465. <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: it's not two-factor
  1466. <cuddlefish> and it doesn't change
  1467. <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: yubico can how, though you need software support.
  1468. <gmaxwell> it can work in a challenge response and a skeyish mode.
  1469. <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: sure, but MtGox does't support it
  1470. <gmaxwell> the skeyish mode doesn't need client software support.
  1471. <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: wait, what?
  1472. * kapejod_ is now known as kapejod
  1473. <cuddlefish> it automatically changes your PW?
  1474. <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: it needs server support.
  1475. <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: yes, exactly
  1476. <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: the challenge response mode requires something on the client too— it doesn't just act as a usb keyboard for that.
  1477. <MagicalTux> for RSA, the key themselves cost only 50$ per key, the server support costs 500kUSD + 100kUSD/year
  1478. <cuddlefish> MagicalTux: I, personally, would pay <= $100 for 2-factor auth
  1479. <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: http://www.yubico.com/
  1480. <gmaxwell> No server costs for yubico otp mode.
  1481. <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: I don't like this "cloud" thing
  1482. <MagicalTux> relying on a separate server for that
  1483. <notallhere> we only paid 20k for setup where i work MagicalTux, admittedly that only came with 1 appliance and 30 keys, either way it was a waste of money as they are now compromised
  1484. <MagicalTux> also is this yubikey compabible with most OS ?
  1485. <MagicalTux> notallhere: I asked for a server license for 5000 keys :p
  1486. <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: yes, everything. It's a USB keyboard as far as the OS is concerned.
  1487. <MagicalTux> oh
  1488. <MagicalTux> nice
  1489. <MagicalTux> hey people, you prefer black or white ?
  1490. <MagicalTux> :D
  1491. <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: and there is regular open source authentication code for it. In one time password mode it's just like skey.. you hit the button and it plays out a fresh password that only the server can validate.
  1492. <ar> tokens? black
  1493. <noagendamarket> always bet on black :)
  1494. <geist_> black
  1495. <MagicalTux> I knew it
  1496. <ar> MagicalTux: isn't white the "war colour" anyway? :P
  1497. <noagendamarket> its the apple colour :)
  1498. <cuddlefish> MagicalTux: Heck, just give us a PRNG algorithm and a per-account seed. we'll figure it out from there
  1499. <wumpus> purple :P
  1500. <MagicalTux> xD
  1501. <MagicalTux> ordering some yubikeys
  1502. <bougyman> MagicalTux: secureID tokens?
  1503. <MagicalTux> securid = RSA
  1504. <bougyman> yeah, i saw mention of that up above.
  1505. <bougyman> just wondered if that's the ultra security package.
  1506. <notallhere> you could do a btc transaction based login system, or at least a way for someone to unlock an account.  send 0.x amount of btc from a pre arranged address.   i guess you'd be fucked if someone stole your wallet though
  1507. <wumpus> notallhere: not even needed to send money, you can sign messages with your bitcoin private keys, there's a patch for that somewhere
  1508. <ar> also, wasn't rsa hacked a few weeks ago? and another thing i can't understand, is why they stored the seeds for tokens they already sold and the information on who they sold token with what id
  1509. <noagendamarket> would be good if a yubikey generated a btc address lol
  1510. <wumpus> but I think an external device is better in this case
  1511. <MagicalTux> ar: customer losing their seeds
  1512. <ar> MagicalTux: the seeds are on the keys
  1513. <bougyman> client ssl certs aren't that expensive, and people could layer their own factor on top of their cert.
  1514. <noagendamarket> get the yubikey to generate a bitcoin address then send coins to it
  1515. <wumpus> and they have the seeds on a machine connected to the internet... that was indeed lame
  1516. <ar> MagicalTux: or at least the serial numbers on which the seeds are based
  1517. <notallhere> ar it was hacked, but only if the attackers are able to keylog a number of valid logins from someone with a key, i think they figure out the seed this way
  1518. <gmaxwell> bougyman: if someone compromises your system and can sniff your password then they can grab the client cert too. I know that PCI thinks client certs are two factor, but I think they are stupid.
  1519. <bougyman> gmaxwell: right, that's why I said users could add another factor.
  1520. <gmaxwell> notallhere: I think they just need a number of valid ones in order to sync it.
  1521. <bougyman> like a biometric device to unlock the client cert.
  1522. <bougyman> it's not two factor with just a cert, I agree with you.
  1523. <wumpus> mtgox iris scan :P
  1524. <gmaxwell> bougyman: which leaves the cert in ram where it can be copied by a trojan. :)  (but we're mostly agreeing, I agree)
  1525. <bougyman> they control that cert, they can protect it as much as they do (or don't) want.
  1526. <gmaxwell> seperately from mtgox we need to convince yubikey for a key with firmware that can hold a bitcoin private key and sign transactions presented to it. :)
  1527. <ar> bougyman: what biometrics? fingerprint readers can be easily fooled
  1528. <noagendamarket> yes
  1529. <bougyman> ar: again, that would be up to the user.
  1530. <noagendamarket> you could plug it into the bitcoin client
  1531. <bougyman> fingerprint is rather weak.
  1532. <bougyman> like protecting your bitcoin wallet, there's only so much you can do.
  1533. <bougyman> if someone owns your machine, they own your machine.
  1534. <MagicalTux> yubikey ordered
  1535. <gmaxwell> noagendamarket: sadly the low cost formfactor of the yubikey would give it no way to independantly show you the txn before signing it, so a trojan could just feed it txn to send all your money to the badguy. :(
  1536. <MagicalTux> http://bitcoinmonitor.com/ <- btw, 424242.42424242
  1537. <noagendamarket> :(
  1538. <gmaxwell> bougyman: not so, if you had a secure hardware device with your key in it and a little screen to show txn for you to approve, then your machine could be owned all up and you'd be mostly safe.
  1539. <bougyman> right, then they just have to steal that little secure hardware device
  1540. <geist_> thats a whole lotta bitcoins
  1541. <wumpus> gmaxwell: yep it should show the desination address as well as the amount
  1542. <gmaxwell> bougyman: plus the password used to encrypt the key in the devices memory.
  1543. <strawf> linux-livecd is what many people use for secure browsing in their ebanks etc.
  1544. <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, it has to show the output address and the amount.
  1545. <gmaxwell> bougyman: and they couldn't do this from their desktop in nigeria. :)
  1546. <gmaxwell> (well they password they could get, but they'd have to fly to wherever you are and mug you. Unless you're in nigeria, in which case you're screwed)
  1547. <gmaxwell> wumpus: it also needs some mode that lets you copy out the key onto paper to make a backup in case of loss, but I'm not sure how to prevent someone from using that while you're not looking. :(
  1548. <gmaxwell> (you put the paper in a safe, then put the safe in a safe)
  1549. <wumpus> gmaxwell: that's the eternal dilemma isn't it, either you secure it very well and lose it easily, or you have to spread it around a bit with higher risk of stealing but lower risk of loss
  1550. -
  1551. MagicalTux is ~MagicalTu@unaffiliated/magicaltux * Mark Karpeles
  1552. MagicalTux on #mtgox +#bitcoin-otc
  1553. MagicalTux using kornbluth.freenode.net Frankfurt, Germany
  1554. MagicalTux is logged in as magicaltux
  1555. MagicalTux End of /WHOIS list.
  1556. -
  1557. <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, I think for most people the risk of loss is actually much greater than the risk of theft. I expect a new rash of "omg lost big wallet" threads in a month or two resulting from the security concerns now.
  1558. <gmaxwell> especially after encrypted wallets get deployed.
  1559. <wumpus> yes that's also holding me back from implementing things like external wallets
  1560. -
  1561. MagicalTux is ~MagicalTu@unaffiliated/magicaltux * Mark Karpeles
  1562. MagicalTux on #mtgox +#bitcoin-otc
  1563. MagicalTux using kornbluth.freenode.net Frankfurt, Germany
  1564. MagicalTux is logged in as magicaltux
  1565. MagicalTux End of /WHOIS list.
  1566. -
  1567. <wumpus> I'm dead  scared of users misusing the feature and accidentally deleting wallets
  1568. <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: WALL OF TEXT
  1569. <wumpus> and yes with encrypted wallets users have the risk of losing the key to encrypt the wallet, with no way to recover it ever
  1570. <gmaxwell> wumpus: kinda makes me wonder if the encrypted wallet shouldn't support some kind of escrow feature on day one...
  1571. <wumpus> good point...
  1572. <gmaxwell> or some kind of "here is a printable version of your master key which is weakly encrypted so that decoding it requires searching a 48 bit keyspace; print it and put it in a safe"
  1573. <go1dfish> so ive been afk for a bit, did the transaction go through?
  1574. <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1eHhgW6vquBYhwMPhQ668HPjxTtpvZGPC
  1575. <geist_> yes
  1576. <go1dfish> awesome, that explains the price rise
  1577. <tuoppi> [10:04:04] <tuoppi> Has anyone received their account back to Mt.Gox?
  1578. <tuoppi> [10:04:34] <tuoppi> I've been waiting 41 hours after submitting the claim page proof etc
  1579. <DavidSJ> I have not.
  1580. <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, rofl @ 42
  1581. <MagicalTux> if this works fine, we'll provide yubikeys with AES key private to Mt.Gox
  1582. <geist_> cool
  1583. <DavidSJ> MagicalTux: what percentage of account requests have been approved so far, out of curiosity?
  1584. <tuoppi> What is the average wait time for requests to be approved?
  1585. <geist_> i dont think theyve started sending out confimrations yet
  1586. <cuddlefish> tuoppi: 1 day past the time you stop asking
  1587. <geist_> so.. infinite so far
  1588. <Ycros> MagicalTux: can I use my own yubikey? - I already have two
  1589. <MagicalTux> Ycros: I don't wanna poke the yubikey servers, but I'll see
  1590. <MagicalTux> I just ordered some yubikeys for the people here
  1591. <Ycros> MagicalTux: you don't have to poke their servers
  1592. <MagicalTux> and to ship too
  1593. <MagicalTux> Ycros: if you use the yubikey AES key, you do, right?
  1594. <Ycros> you can run your own stuff, there's open source implementations of the server-side stuff
  1595. <Ycros> you can integrate it into pam, your own websites, etc.
  1596. <MagicalTux> I guess yubikey doesn't give their private AES key to anyone
  1597. <hallowworld> MagicalTux: why not just support OATH OTP? We can install our own softkeys on iphone/android
  1598. <Ycros> MagicalTux: you can upload your own key into the yubico servers
  1599. <hallowworld> i think yubikeys are OATH compatible also anyway
  1600. <Ycros> they are oath compatible
  1601. <Ycros> MagicalTux: the thing about yubikeys is they're reprogrammable
  1602. <Ycros> MagicalTux: working with yubico's OTP is merely a default setting
  1603. <MagicalTux> yep
  1604. <MagicalTux> I saw that
  1605. <Ycros> you can give me a private aes key for me to use, and I can program it into my key
  1606. <MagicalTux> and I plan to reprogram them a bit
  1607. <MagicalTux> :)
  1608. <Ycros> the keys will support 2 different programs
  1609. <MagicalTux> I'll make it possible
  1610. <Ycros> one is on short press, one is on long press
  1611. <MagicalTux> need to try here first
  1612. <MagicalTux> 1~2 weeks for shipping they say
  1613. <EskimoBob> can someone ban this retarded "HamWallet" from support.mtgox.com? this kid has some serious mental issues
  1614. <MagicalTux> EskimoBob: url?
  1615. <EskimoBob> https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20208066-huge-bitcoin-sell-off-due-to-a-compromised-account-rollback?page=8
  1616. <MagicalTux> User suspended
  1617. <assassindrake> yeah thats obnoxious
  1618. <EskimoBob> you can find hes verbal vomit from every page, He keeps changing hes name
  1619. <hallowworld> and with a userpic like that he's obviously from 4chan
  1620. <bobobo> have claims started being accepted/rejected yet? are there rejection emails?
  1621. <EskimoBob> My status: "Account recovery request submitted at 2011-06-21 16:12"  - Your account recovery request is pending review by our staff. :( and my IP must be easy to verify
  1622. * LightRider is now known as LightRider|afk
  1623. <EskimoBob> MagicalTux: thank you
  1624. <bobobo> eskimo, same message
  1625. <MagicalTux> will send the first batch by tonight (japan time)
  1626. <bobobo> thanks
  1627. <Ycros> oh neat tokyo is only 1 hour behind me
  1628. <EskimoBob> Tonight? wil do me no good. We have the national summer solstice holiday tonight. I'll be drunk like (75-80% of the country) and probably dancing around the bonfire with naked girls. And yes, tomorrow is a day of.
  1629. <EskimoBob> *off
  1630. <Ycros> what country is that, I think I need to visit
  1631. <EskimoBob> Ycros: I think most of the Scandinavia has a this as a holiday. We have it bit late because of the modern calendar and some other holiday
  1632. <nopz___> yop
  1633. <EskimoBob> no wonder most people have a birthday in march
  1634. <UberCookies> 8=D
  1635. <Ycros> EskimoBob: hahaha
  1636. <Shocky> What happened to lulzsec?
  1637. <Shocky> Also, when is my account going to be reviewed?
  1638. <Shocky> I sent in the form
  1639. <Shocky> the day it opened
  1640. <Shocky> I mean, take your time
  1641. <Shocky> But I really
  1642. <Shocky> really
  1643. <Shocky> really
  1644. <Shocky> Don't want to miss mtgox opening
  1645. <EskimoBob> Shocky: https://support.mtgox.com
  1646. <EskimoBob> its all there
  1647. <Shocky> How do I know if my claim was successful?
  1648. <Shocky> Would it have told me if my password was wrong?
  1649. <go1dfish> would it have mattered if it did?
  1650. <deego> Will the mtgox API remain unchanged?
  1651. <go1dfish> anyone could have already checked beforehand against the compromised db
  1652. <Shocky> hm
  1653. <Shocky> that would have made sense
  1654. <go1dfish> I would expect it to reject you if your password was wrong
  1655. <ox8o> deego, the API seems still working but disconnected from their DBs and everything..
  1656. <deego> ah, thx ox8o
  1657. <ox8o> deego, but they'll change it for sure.. probably not a lot just the authentication way.. maybe
  1658. <ox8o> deego, or implement a 2 factor verification APIs when that comes up
  1659. <deego> ox8o: this url: https://mtgox.com/code/data/getDepth.php  leads me to the "hacked page."
  1660. <thermal> ooer yubikeys. are they two-factor auth key thingos?
  1661. <ox8o> deego, as I said it's not active.. but changing the API doesn't make since unless if they add some new functions to the website
  1662. <ox8o> deego, such as the 2 factor authentication or a more strengthen authentication algorithm
  1663. <deego> ox8o: got you.
  1664. <phantomcircuit> https://store.yubico.com/
  1665. <phantomcircuit> those are a very good idea
  1666. <zelyony> that keys.. to russia it will be pass month and over.. and it cannot stop from hacking site or db
  1667. <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yep, I suggested them earlier and apparently MagicalTux has already ordered some.
  1668. <phantomcircuit> yeah
  1669. <phantomcircuit> pretending to be a keyboard is particularly clever
  1670. <MagicalTux> so the key can be long :)
  1671. <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, lol the key doesn't need to be more than a few bytes actually
  1672. <thermal> phantomcircuit: are ubikeys two-factor auth?
  1673. <thermal> yubikeys *
  1674. <phantomcircuit> thermal, alone? no
  1675. <phantomcircuit> but combined with a separate password yes
  1676. <thermal> ah ok.
  1677. <MagicalTux> it'll be combined with a separate password
  1678. <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, how about requiring a dna sample too
  1679. <phantomcircuit> just to be sure
  1680. * phantomcircuit trolls on out of here
  1681. <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, sadly the keyboard trick isn't good enough for challenge/response. And IIRC the challenge/response they do doesn't allow you to use one key with multiple mutually untrusted parties. But the OTP mode is fine for mtgox's application.
  1682. <Raccoon> MagicalTux: why was this channel registered to LulzSecurity earlier this past day?
  1683. <zelyony> MagicalTux: trading is working? mtgoxlive shows something, but mtgox-websocket is silence
  1684. <MagicalTux> Raccoon: by a troll claiming to be lulzsec
  1685. <MagicalTux> zelyony: nothing
  1686. <MagicalTux> I'm fixing the data while importing
  1687. <MagicalTux> the trade history will be fixed for all past trades
  1688. <Raccoon> MagicalTux: but rather, how did they attain 'founder' status/privs in here?
  1689. <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, you got freenode staff to change ownership of the channel without forcing you into ##mtgox!?
  1690. <phantomcircuit> amazing
  1691. <MagicalTux> Raccoon: I never created this channel in the first time
  1692. <Raccoon> i see
  1693. <phantomcircuit> im surprised they haven't closed down half of the bitcoin channels and forced them to ## yet
  1694. <phantomcircuit> hell even php is in ##php
  1695. <Raccoon> i take it that freenode transfered rights over to you.  ok
  1696. <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, challenge/response is nice, but isn't actually necessary
  1697. <phantomcircuit> in fact the algorithm that rsa tokens use is pretty obvious
  1698. <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: ##php is not maintained by rasmus
  1699. <MagicalTux> or zend
  1700. <MagicalTux> while #mtgox has the owner of mtgox.com on it
  1701. <MagicalTux> ## = non official and # = official
  1702. <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, technically # channels are supposed to be officially registered freenode projects
  1703. <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: we registered mtgox on freenode
  1704. <phantomcircuit> oh
  1705. <phantomcircuit> neat
  1706. <Raccoon> i think it's pretty interesting that #bitcoin-anarchy is registered to freenode-staff
  1707. <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: challenge response done differently would be nice. E.g. the server sends you random crap. You add a nonce and sign, return the nonce and the signature. This way you could have _one_ challenge response token used by many sites who could not impersonate it.
  1708. <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: but the way the token does challenge response is that it just xors a secret with the challenge and returns the sha1, so you can't have one secret on multiple sites or they can impersonate you.
  1709. <Raccoon> or, how about just using unique good-oldfashined passwords for each site
  1710. <Raccoon> and leave it to SSL to do the rest
  1711. <gmaxwell> Raccoon: ... then a moron with a keyboard sniffing trojan takes all your money and you cry.
  1712. <Raccoon> any moron with a keyboard sniffing trojan already has their private keys
  1713. <gmaxwell> Mtgox's private keys?
  1714. <gmaxwell> Who says you even have a wallet.
  1715. <Raccoon> my point is, an infected computer is already too late.
  1716. <thermal> how about a two-factor authentiction app for iPhone/Android
  1717. <Raccoon> no matter what the security implimentation
  1718. <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah those tokens are far to cheap to build rsa/ecdsa into them
  1719. <thermal> similar to the Google Authenticator app
  1720. <gmaxwell> Raccoon: two factor drastically closes the window for the attacker. He must intercept and act while you are authenticated because he can't replay the authentication without you.
  1721. <thermal> would be a lot cheaper than having to purchase new hardware
  1722. <MagicalTux> I don't like iphone/android apps
  1723. <MagicalTux> first, not everyone has an iphone/android
  1724. <thermal> :(
  1725. <MagicalTux> and second, android virus could  be targetting those very OTP apps
  1726. <gmaxwell> he can't capture lots of keyboard data and go "oh look mtgox passwords", he would have to prepare in advance to target the site.
  1727. <Raccoon> gmaxwell: what unique identifier is used to issue and validate the challenge/response?
  1728. <Raccoon> gmaxwell: and why can't it be stolen?
  1729. <Raccoon> keyboard loggers know what site you're on.
  1730. <Raccoon> they can also transmit in realtime, la VNC
  1731. <Raccoon> the crude method is to look at the browser title text
  1732. End of #mtgox buffer    Thu Jun 23 01:57:23 2011
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