(3:39:31 AM) Tim: hey justin, what if a bank robber forced you at gunpoint to either rape an innocent person or die?
(3:39:38 AM) Tim: would it be moral to rape that innocent person?
(3:39:48 AM) czar bernstein: no
(3:39:50 AM) Justin: I would probably rather get shot
(3:39:51 AM) czar bernstein: immoral
(3:39:53 AM) Tim: the examples, I think, shift dramatically when it's *you* who is doing it
(3:39:57 AM) Gil: What if the innocent person wants it? :p
(3:39:59 AM) Tim: ...
(3:40:02 AM) Justin: Then it's not rape
(3:40:03 AM) Gil: LOL jk
(3:40:04 AM) czar bernstein: then id do it
(3:40:06 AM) czar bernstein: jk
(3:40:07 AM) czar bernstein: lol
(3:40:11 AM) Gil: LOL
(3:40:18 AM) czar bernstein: what if its a man who wants it
(3:40:19 AM) czar bernstein: haha
(3:40:26 AM) Gil: OH NOOOOO
(3:40:28 AM) Justin: I don't know, I wouldn't rape her... But I suppose I might ask her if it is okay before I make a decision.
(3:40:30 AM) Gil: So gay!
(3:40:38 AM) Tim: "Hey, can I rape you?"
(3:40:44 AM) czar bernstein: no
(3:40:47 AM) Tim: a rape is by definition nonconsentual, lol
(3:40:49 AM) Gil: Plead with her and say "Can you have sex with me... to save my life? :("
(3:40:55 AM) Justin: Yeah, basically.
(3:40:57 AM) czar bernstein: "Excuse me kind woman, do you mind saving my life?"
(3:41:08 AM) Justin: Would it be morally permissable for her to say no?
(3:41:09 AM) Gil: Hahaha!
(3:41:36 AM) Tim: but the salient point here is that the examples shift dramatically when it's you who is forced to act, most of us, I think, would rather take the bullet.
(3:42:09 AM) czar bernstein: yes...since even if the woman consented, its morally wrong to fornicate, and we should tehrefore take the bullet
(3:43:10 AM) Justin: What's your point though, Tim?
(3:43:30 AM) Gil: Fornicate or save a life? :O
(3:43:39 AM) Gil: Or... end a life, rather.
(3:43:58 AM) Gil: Moral dilemmas ftl >_>
(3:44:01 AM) Tim: that your moral intuitions will shift depending on who is the perpetrator, meaning that there is something about these examples which make them dubious.
(3:44:13 AM) czar bernstein: its not a dilemma...it be easy decision for me
(3:44:21 AM) Justin: LOL, are you guys actually against fornication that much?
(3:44:26 AM) davidid7jr@yahoo.com: ...
(3:44:27 AM) czar bernstein: Im not
(3:44:28 AM) Tim: I would take the bullet...
(3:44:29 AM) davidid7jr@yahoo.com: Yes.
(3:44:34 AM) Tim: And I'm not against sex
(3:44:35 AM) davidid7jr@yahoo.com: Well, I am lulz
(3:44:37 AM) Justin: You can't seriously call that a dilemma.
(3:44:37 AM) czar bernstein: Tim!?!?!?!
(3:44:40 AM) Tim: I want to have sex... once I'm married
(3:44:55 AM) duniacat@mac.com entered the room.
(3:44:59 AM) Tim: LOL
(3:45:02 AM) Gil: I'd rather attack the man with the gun and die trying I guess :p
(3:45:03 AM) davidid7jr@yahoo.com: I know I'm having lots of it.
(3:45:10 AM) czar bernstein: Are you seriously saying that if someone held a bullet to your head saying "if you dont have sex with this consenting woman, I will kill you" you would not have sex?
(3:45:10 AM) duniacat@mac.com left the room.
(3:45:16 AM) Justin: You would rather die than fornicate?...
(3:45:18 AM) Tim: I'm talking about rape
(3:45:27 AM) davidid7jr@yahoo.com: I'd rather die than fornicate.
(3:45:34 AM) davidid7jr@yahoo.com: He'd probably kill me anyways after and send me to hell.
(3:45:35 AM) Tim: but, if she's not my spouse....
(3:45:42 AM) Tim: I guess I'd take the bullet
(3:45:47 AM) davidid7jr@yahoo.com: WOO TIM.
(3:46:00 AM) czar bernstein: Wow....I guarantee that in this situation, all of you would choose as I would
(3:46:03 AM) Justin: Sometimes you guys baffle me
(3:46:15 AM) czar bernstein: yeah...its a trivially easy decision lol
(3:46:18 AM) Tim: Hey Justin, if someone pointed a gun at you and told you to have homosexual sex with an 80 year old man or die, would you do it?
(3:46:26 AM) czar bernstein: i would do it
(3:46:29 AM) Justin: I would
(3:46:30 AM) Tim: .......................
(3:46:32 AM) davidid7jr@yahoo.com: ...
(3:46:35 AM) czar bernstein: in a heartbeat
(3:46:37 AM) Gil: LOL
(3:46:51 AM) czar bernstein: and so would you Tim
(3:46:52 AM) Tim: It would take him more than a heartbeat to get ready, lol
(3:46:56 AM) Tim: NO, I'd rather die
(3:46:56 AM) czar bernstein: lol
(3:47:12 AM) czar bernstein: Tim, when you have a gun pointed at you, things change big time
(3:47:17 AM) Tim: so let's revise that, if someone pointed a gun at you and told you to homosexually rape an 80 year old man or die, would you do it?
(3:47:29 AM) czar bernstein: I would die
(3:47:34 AM) Justin: Same
(3:47:36 AM) Tim: what's the difference between the two then?
(3:47:43 AM) czar bernstein: One is consenting
(3:47:45 AM) Justin: Rape = without consent.
(3:47:46 AM) czar bernstein: the other is rape lol
(3:47:48 AM) Tim: ....
(3:47:58 AM) Tim: since when does consent make it right -.-
(3:48:00 AM) czar bernstein: you dont see the moral difference?
(3:48:02 AM) Justin: LOL?
(3:48:05 AM) czar bernstein: Thats not the PONT
(3:48:11 AM) czar bernstein: You just proved my point
(3:48:12 AM) czar bernstein: lol
(3:48:13 AM) Justin: Is that supposed to be rhetoric?
(3:48:14 AM) Tim: Consenting or non-consenting, it's still wrong.
(3:48:15 AM) Gil: What if someone pointed a gun, and told you to make love to a extremely hot girl who was previously already flirting with you anyway? Timmy, ur answer!
(3:48:24 AM) czar bernstein: Yeah, but it does not outweigh my right to life
(3:48:52 AM) czar bernstein: Absolutely...I would...probably without the gun pointed at me
(3:48:54 AM) czar bernstein: lol jk
(3:48:55 AM) Tim: the right thing to do would be to take the bullet, but depending on my emotions, I don't know. I would really hope I took the bullet though.
(3:48:59 AM) Justin: Now I'm starting to wonder if there's any bullets you guys wouldn't bite to justify a position.
(3:49:20 AM) Tim: I'm not going to compromise my convictions simply because a gun is pointed at you
(3:49:21 AM) czar bernstein: no...the wrong thing to do would be to die
(3:49:45 AM) Justin: Wasting a human life is worse than having sex...
(3:49:50 AM) Tim: How about this: If someone asked you at gunpoint if you believe in God and that if you did you would die, would you lie? (assuming you did)
(3:50:16 AM) czar bernstein: My uncle is an orthodox Jew. He is commanded by God to not eat Pork. However, when I told him "someone points a gun at you, do you eat the pork?" he responded by saying "I would ask for the BBQ sauce"
(3:50:26 AM) Gil: LOLOL
(3:50:44 AM) czar bernstein: there are circumstances where its justified to choose to do something wrong to prevent a harmt hat is worse