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  1. [08:30:28] * basedtc (KiwiIRC@Rizon-1D1F6861.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #burgersandfries
  2.  
  3. [08:42:13] <basedtc> is this the dark heart of the gamergates
  4. <<nobody responds to him>>
  5.  
  6. [08:43:38] <basedtc> how do you join gamergate is there a hat i need to buy or something
  7. <<still nobody responds to him>>
  8.  
  9. [08:49:24] <basedtc> so u guys like Milo
  10. [08:49:46] <Moltar> basedtc he's a big guy
  11. [08:49:56] <NcTn> i like him when he is helping us
  12. [08:49:57] <NcTn> otherwise
  13. [08:50:04] <NcTn> he has some pretty stupid opinions
  14. [08:54:06] <Moltar> I think Milos best quality is his sense of humor, and it happens to be the thing that pisses off SJWs the most
  15. [08:54:39] <Moltar> he wears his feelings and insecurities on his sleeve and that kind of honesty is admirable and shows good character imo
  16. [08:55:01] <Moltar> but because of that brashness, he's prone to putting his foot in his mouth from time to time
  17. [08:55:52] <Moltar> I don't hold it against him though, I'd rather he just be himself than sanitize himself to conform to what's considered 'good PR'
  18. [08:56:05] <@Thidran> Agreed.
  19. [08:56:23] <@Thidran> He's a hot blooded type.
  20. [08:56:33] <@Thidran> But occasionally makes mistakes. Gotta be careful on that.
  21. [08:56:59] <@Thidran> Key here though is he does learn from 'em.
  22. [08:57:08] <Moltar> some people really go overboard with the self-censoring calls when he puts his foot in his mouth
  23. [08:57:31] <@Thidran> Just the nature of the beast Moltar.
  24. [08:57:47] <Moltar> the more we try to censor ourselves to be more PC, the more we become like the SJWs
  25. [08:58:09] <@Thidran> The only area where I'd stop 'em was when he leaked the emails and left certain contact bits if I recall correctly.
  26. [08:58:16] <@Thidran> It happens though.
  27. [08:59:08] <Moltar> well yeah that was a genuine error though
  28. [08:59:11] <basedtc> "the SJWs" lol
  29. [08:59:12] <Moltar> not an opinion
  30. [08:59:15] * @Thidran nods.
  31.  
  32. [08:59:17] <stealthsuit> We cannot be PC
  33. [08:59:25] <stealthsuit> I'll say things now to break political correctness
  34. [08:59:30] <@Thidran> tone policing as a whole is dumb.
  35. [08:59:48] <stealthsuit> Shit-stomping faggots, bitchy trannies, goddamn niggers, stupid fucking kikes and fuck the gooks.
  36. [08:59:49] <@Thidran> I'm mainly stepping in whenever it looks like someone's beginning to rage though.
  37. [09:00:04] <@Thidran> Only because it defeats the purpose of letting them flail at you.
  38. [09:00:27] <stealthsuit> Yup
  39. [09:00:57] <basedtc> wait so is gamergate's cause to just say whatever you want?
  40. [09:01:03] <Moltar> basedtc if you want to join in the conversation you can feel free.  Most people here are reasonably minded to disagreement, I think.  You don't have to sit at the back passing snide remarks
  41. [09:01:05] <basedtc> I don't get how "Shit-stomping faggots, bitchy trannies, goddamn niggers, stupid fucking kikes and fuck the gooks. " is helping the cause
  42. [09:01:33] <Moltar> basedtc the invisible hand
  43. [09:01:42] <basedtc> ditto holding Milo up, he seems to be covering this opportunistically (why aren't other conservative voices supporting GG?)
  44. [09:01:46] <Moltar> shitposting will find its rightful place in the shitter
  45. [09:01:56] <Moltar> the best posts will be pushed to the top through natural selection
  46. [09:02:02] <basedtc> do you really believe that?
  47. [09:02:13] <Moltar> it's worked for gamergate thus far
  48. [09:02:21] <basedtc> how so
  49. [09:02:33] <Moltar> because that's what's been happening this whole time
  50. [09:02:50] <Moltar> and our message has for the most part stayed on course
  51. [09:03:11] <Moltar> the opposition keeps trying to obfuscate our motives and ambitions
  52. [09:03:16] <Moltar> but it's not working very well
  53. [09:03:17] <basedtc> which are?
  54. [09:03:28] <basedtc> genuinely curious what you think your ambitions are
  55. [09:03:48] <Moltar> ethical standards in video game journalism, no more ideological nepotism and cronyism
  56. [09:03:52] <@Thidran> ^
  57. [09:04:14] <@Thidran> It seems that video game journalists are aiming to drag everything down with 'em in the process.
  58. [09:04:17] <@Thidran> Which I find amusing.
  59. [09:04:25] <@Thidran> Hell, they did the samson option yesterday against youtubers.
  60. [09:04:29] <Moltar> journalists having positions of power over their readers and using that position to censor those who disagree with them
  61. [09:04:38] <basedtc> what does censor mean, hiding comments?
  62. [09:04:40] <basedtc> that's not censorship
  63. [09:04:40] <@Thidran> No.
  64. [09:04:43] <Underdose> how about people voice their opinions without having to tailor it to other people's bias
  65. [09:04:49] <Underdose> and we all get along blisfully
  66. [09:05:39] <Moltar> basedtc blackballing them from inclusion into the industry, threatening their livelihoods, acts of violence (syringe to milo)
  67. [09:05:41] <Moltar> etc..
  68.  
  69. [09:06:51] <basedtc> so what does ethical games journalism look like
  70. [09:07:02] <@Thidran> Gimme a moment.
  71. [09:07:15] <@Thidran> http://www.afjonline.com/ethics.cfm Option one.
  72. [09:07:26] <@Thidran> http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp
  73. [09:07:28] <@Thidran> Option 2.
  74. [09:07:43] <@Thidran> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/12224-The-Official-Ethics-Policy-of-The-Escapist
  75. [09:07:45] <@Thidran> Option 3.
  76.  
  77. [09:07:55] <basedtc> most of the publications you are blackballing abide by SPJ
  78. [09:08:03] <@Thidran> At this point, they have three options to pick and choose from to cobble together.
  79. [09:08:05] <@Thidran> And no they don't.
  80. [09:08:08] <basedtc> yes they do!
  81. [09:08:12] <@Thidran> Not even close.
  82. [09:09:15] <Moltar> yeahh..... nahh bro
  83. [09:09:21] <Moltar> not even close lmao
  84. [09:09:29] <Moltar> not even fucking close
  85.  
  86. [09:09:33] <basedtc> I mean the gaming industry has forced publications to operate within a context of access journalism forever, why are you not going after the publishers?
  87. [09:09:49] <basedtc> hell, GameInformer is owned by GameStop and was one of the most popular for a long time
  88. [09:09:50] <@Thidran> You think we aren't?
  89. [09:10:00] * @Thidran grins toothily.
  90. [09:10:03] <basedtc> I haven't seen any GG messaging directed at game companies
  91. [09:10:25] <basedtc> I'd love to see it if it exists
  92. [09:10:57] <Moltar> basedtc I don't see the publishers as responsible for the ideological cronyism and nepotism.
  93. [09:12:04] <Moltar> basedtc but these problems of ideological cronyism and ideological nepotism are relatively new, and IMO are infinitely more toxic to the industry
  94.  
  95. [09:12:18] <basedtc> what is an example of ideological nepotism moltar, coverage of indie games?
  96. [09:12:24] <@Thidran> No.
  97. [09:12:29] <basedtc> cultural criticism?
  98. [09:12:33] <@Thidran> Only allowing games in if it fulfills a specific slant.
  99. [09:12:45] <basedtc> what do you mean only allowing games in
  100. [09:12:47] <@Thidran> Note, we've already fought against this a decade ago.
  101. [09:12:52] <@Thidran> Selective coverage.
  102. [09:12:54] <basedtc> last I checked sites like Kotaku and Polygon cover all the big blockbusters
  103. [09:13:04] <@Thidran> I'm not talking blockbusters.
  104. [09:13:28] <basedtc> what do you think these journalists should not be covering
  105. [09:13:38] <@Thidran> based: Their friends.
  106. [09:13:41] <@Thidran> Their lovers.
  107. [09:13:48] <@Thidran> The people they financially support.
  108. [09:13:48] <Moltar> basedtc it's not the cultural criticism in itself, it's the behavior of the cartel which coerces a very specific brand of cultural criticism on its audience and excludes from the agenda any debate or questions about this type of cultural criticism
  109.  
  110. [09:13:50] <basedtc> wasn't the zoe quinn thing debunked
  111. [09:13:56] <@Thidran> It was not.
  112. [09:14:23] <@Thidran> See, the original claim was debunked yes(No reviews).
  113. [09:14:29] <@Thidran> But what those jokers didn't realize is...
  114. [09:14:35] <@Thidran> The guy's boss confirmed the romantic relationship.
  115. [09:14:43] <%fotts> Maya Kramer, and Robert Arnott still gave her those rewards regardless of how intimately related they were
  116. [09:14:55] <%fotts> Nathan Grayson?
  117. [09:14:56] <@Thidran> What his dispute was is that it didn't happen during the same time frame that the articles were written.
  118. [09:15:10] <@Thidran> (Which, by the way, STILL rate as a CoI because of him being friends with her beforehand).
  119. [09:15:13] <basedtc> right, if it happened afterward how could there be any conflict
  120. [09:15:15] <@Thidran> Yes, Nathan Grayson.
  121. [09:15:20] <@Thidran> Because he was friends with her.
  122. [09:15:26] <@Thidran> Sleeping with someone just makes it even more obvious.
  123. [09:15:27] <%fotts> He went official two days after the article, but was with her a month before, if you look at the Convention Vlogs, Thidran basedtc
  124. [09:15:37] <@Thidran> fotts: Ayup.
  125. [09:16:09] <%fotts> The best part is that most of the 5 Guys were there, too!
  126. [09:16:14] <@Thidran> Mmhmm!
  127. [09:16:16] <@Thidran> That shit was hilarious.
  128. [09:16:16] <Moltar> lol I had a 4 hour debate with some SJW yesterday who failed to understand that sexual relationships and monetary exchange between journalist+subject compromise journalistic integrity regardless of whether it was a transactional arragement or not
  129.  
  130. [09:17:12] <basedtc> so you guys think this example of conflict of interest represents a systemic problem with people who cover games
  131. [09:17:20] <%fotts> Yes
  132. [09:17:21] <@Thidran> It became it, yeah.
  133. [09:17:25] <Moltar> yup
  134. [09:17:31] <basedtc> ok
  135. [09:17:34] <Moltar> not unique to games, of course
  136. [09:17:39] <@Thidran> Before the gamers are dead issue, we found what was it?
  137. [09:17:44] <@Thidran> At least a dozen separate instances?
  138. [09:17:47] <Moltar> but games are our industry and we care about them
  139.  
  140. [09:17:48] <%fotts> Hell, Dewrito Pope is a saint compared to these ass bags
  141. [09:17:53] <@Thidran> fotts: No.
  142. [09:18:00] <@Thidran> No he's not, but he does a different form of corruption.
  143. [09:18:05] <@Thidran> Just keep that in mind.
  144. [09:18:18] <%fotts> Yeah, tie-in deals that were too tied-in
  145. [09:18:25] <%fotts> Also, bumping metacritic scores
  146. [09:18:39] <Makarios> Remeber Patricia Hernandez? She was one of the most blalant ones
  147. [09:18:44] <@Thidran> Yep.
  148. [09:18:46] <%fotts> Getting promo's from sponsors is ok, but when it gets in the way of integrity, you are out the door
  149. <<continued discussion about past scandals>>
  150.  
  151. [09:19:50] <Moltar> basedtc what's your connection to this whole issue?  I'm not asking you for your identity, but if you wouldn't mind explaining a bit about where you're coming from, I think it would help for the sake of empathy and understanding
  152. [09:20:48] <Moltar> basedtc like what do you view as the most positive and negative aspects of gamergate and why do you agree or disagree with those aspects
  153. [09:21:00] <basedtc> Moltar I write for The Verge :)
  154. [09:21:08] <Moltar> ok
  155. [09:21:29] <@Thidran> Fair enough.
  156. [09:21:34] <basedtc> I'm a journalist, I wrote the piece last night that everyone is angry about
  157. [09:21:37] <basedtc> happy to reveal my identity
  158. [09:21:41] <basedtc> just want to talk to some folks
  159. [09:21:42] <@Thidran> Understandable.
  160. [09:21:52] <basedtc> thanks for speaking with me
  161. [09:21:53] <@Thidran> Because you're likely on the outside looking in.
  162. [09:22:01] <@Thidran> Everyone's welcome here since it's a public room.
  163.  
  164. [09:22:06] <Moltar> basedtc would you mind verifying that through a tweet or something?  have to be skeptical
  165. [09:22:07] <basedtc> well I've been a PC gamer for two decades for what it;s worth
  166. [09:22:25] <Moltar> hey, me too
  167. [09:22:26] <basedtc> sure Moltar I'll tweet "420" in a minute
  168. [09:22:33] <Moltar> ok
  169. <he tweets from @chillmage to verify his identity>
  170.  
  171. [09:25:55] <basedtc> well just to be clear my boss didn't tell me to write that piece, I stand behind it fully
  172. [09:26:07] <@Thidran> Alright then.
  173. [09:27:24] <stealthsuit> Wait
  174. [09:27:29] <stealthsuit> You're THAT TC?
  175. [09:27:32] <Moltar> basedtc just gonna read your piece again so it's fresh in my mind
  176. [09:27:34] <stealthsuit> Oh my god
  177. [09:27:35] <@Thidran> He is.
  178. [09:27:43] <%fotts> calm yo tits, stealthsuit
  179. [09:27:44] <@Thidran> Hey, he's willing to stand up for his article.
  180. [09:27:50] <stealthsuit> No, I'm surprised
  181. [09:27:52] <@Thidran> Give him respect for his guts.
  182. [09:28:02] <stealthsuit> He's willing to directly engage us
  183. [09:28:02] <stealthsuit> That's gutsy
  184. [09:28:04] <Moltar> don't gang up on him, be kind
  185. [09:28:05] <@Thidran> Indeed.
  186. [09:29:07] <stealthsuit> So uh, welcome to our cathedral of misogyny.
  187. [09:29:15] <basedtc> lol
  188.  
  189. [09:30:13] <basedtc> well I'm not going to *stay* here because I imagine you all would find that to be a chilling effect, but if you want to talk to me I'll be here for a bit
  190. [09:30:37] <stealthsuit> No dude, you're welcome to hang out
  191. [09:30:44] <stealthsuit> You'll hear a lot of expletives, though, this is a free speech zone
  192. [09:31:12] <basedtc> fuck shit piss cunt cock motherfucker tits
  193. [09:31:14] <@Thidran> Nah, that's fine based.
  194. [09:31:18] <basedtc> is that the secret handshake
  195. [09:31:19] <@Thidran> You're welcome to visit whenever.
  196. [09:31:27] <%fotts> We don't let hot button words shut down discussion
  197. [09:31:29] <@Thidran> Because we're a public room.
  198. [09:31:42] <@Thidran> Been waiting actually, since so few accepted the invitation.
  199. [09:32:15] <meklu> The secret handshake is a mere /join
  200.  
  201. [09:33:14] <Moltar> basedtc your article just seems like an aggregation of inflammatory stereotypes, buzzwords, and attitudes.  So, I guess, congrats for summing up the anti-GG rhetoric.  You didn't do a bad job with that.
  202. [09:35:03] <basedtc> Moltar I'll be very clear with a TL;DR (from my personal standpoint and not professional): from a strategic point of view gamergate has virtually no credibility because it's been punching down from the beginning. IMO you're going after the wrong people
  203. [09:35:48] <Moltar> basedtc you're set on the whole gamergate is hypocritical because we're ignoring AAA related corruption in media?
  204. [09:36:07] <%fotts> How can the bottom, the gamers, punch down at the industry, who is above us? basedtc
  205. [09:36:07] <basedtc> I don't think it's hypocritical I just think it's misguided
  206. [09:36:13] <basedtc> the industry is not above you fotts
  207. [09:36:19] <basedtc> consumers drive the industry
  208. [09:36:27] <%fotts> But they are not at the top
  209. [09:36:27] <basedtc> their preferences are reflected in what they get out of it
  210. [09:36:37] <stealthsuit> But consumers are the passive agent of the relation, basedtc
  211. [09:36:42] <basedtc> and for the vast majority of gaming history those preferences have been embodied by dudes
  212. [09:36:46] <%fotts> YOu have the pyramid of power/representation backwards, basedtc
  213. [09:36:52] <@Thidran> Mm, not exactly.
  214. [09:36:56] <@Thidran> It has been off and on.
  215. [09:36:57] <Standard> Attacking the people who have the power to censor, spread propaganda and misrepresent you is punching down, clearly.
  216. [09:36:59] <@Thidran> With women coming along over the years.
  217.  
  218. [09:37:01] <Moltar> basedtc you don't think there's any creedence to the idea of ideological cronyism and ideological nepotism between game journos, PR, academics, and indie devs?
  219. [09:37:23] <basedtc> sure I think journalists are too cozy with the indie scene but to say that's the critical problem in games journalism is laughable
  220. [09:37:41] <basedtc> games journalism is bullshit, it's based totally on access with corporate representation and there's no way around it
  221. [09:37:46] <@Thidran> There is.
  222. [09:37:48] <basedtc> journalists have less power than you think in the scheme
  223. [09:37:53] <@Thidran> But I don't think that they're going to like it.
  224. [09:38:07] <@Thidran> Why do you think we're planning on holding out until the holidays?
  225. [09:38:15] * @Thidran grins mischievously.
  226. [09:38:25] <Moltar> basedtc I notice you're forgoing the ideological problems entirely and just looking at 'closeness' regardless of the motivations and nature of that closeness
  227.  
  228. [09:39:20] <meklu> basedtc: so you're saying you'd prefer to have people going after the Activision/EA/Ubisoft level of developers?
  229. [09:39:30] <basedtc> yes!
  230. [09:39:36] <basedtc> not really I'd prefer
  231. [09:39:45] <basedtc> I don't have a big dog in this fight personally
  232.  
  233. [09:40:07] <meklu> I'd say that much of this controversy seems to have sparked from there being a seemingly anti-gamer backlash upon calling out rotten behaviour
  234. [09:40:10] <%fotts> We don't like being misrepresented, is all, basedtc
  235. [09:40:14] <%fotts> Or lied to
  236. [09:40:21] <%fotts> I think other people can at least agree on that
  237. [09:40:41] <basedtc> yeah well it's going to be very difficult to control your image based on Gamergate's origins and the level of anger and harassment that's come out of it, whether any of you have been involved in that or not
  238. [09:41:00] <basedtc> which is actually the biggest point I wanted to make in my piece
  239. [09:41:12] <basedtc> I wasn't saying that all GG supporters are angry militants, not even close to what I was saying
  240. [09:41:18] <basedtc> but the well is poisoned
  241. [09:41:29] <@Thidran> Not really, because otherwise we wouldn'tve lasted so long.
  242. [09:41:30] <GreyFoxx> based: Show me a "well" that isn't
  243. [09:41:36] <basedtc> that's an equivocation
  244.  
  245. [09:41:48] <stealthsuit> I think there's a mischaracterization of this movement to begin with
  246. [09:41:48] <stealthsuit> basedtc: Have you read the actual timeline?
  247. [09:41:48] <stealthsuit> The harrassment started from the other side
  248. [09:41:48] <stealthsuit> This would not have blown up if it hadn't been for the Streisand Effect.
  249. [09:41:56] <basedtc> gamergate's trolls have been extremely loud compared to other movements
  250. [09:42:00] <GreyFoxx> As soon as you have more than 1 person in any group/movement, SOMEONE is going to do or say something others disagree with
  251. [09:42:10] <GreyFoxx> and then outsides will use that 1 to blame the entire crowd
  252.  
  253. [09:42:37] <Moltar> basedtc just to clarify, are you saying that the ideological homogenity between journos/pr/indies and issues of nepotism and cronyism therein are not as problematic as AAA-related corruption?  Or are you saying that those problems don't exist at all?
  254. [09:43:36] <basedtc> I don't think there is ideological homogeneity, not to the extent that's being alleged. if anything the homogeneity historically has been to try to cover games from the bullshit "perspective from nowhere" and only focus on mechanical things instead of cultural criticism
  255. [09:44:04] <basedtc> to be fair games have only recently started to become widely accepted as art so cultural criticism is also developing
  256. [09:45:17] <Moltar> basedtc so you don't think the thunderous denouncement of anyone who dissents to that ideology is symptomatic of a problem to do with homogeneity?
  257. [09:45:21] <stealthsuit> How about artistic instead of cultural criticism?
  258. [09:45:21] <stealthsuit> You know the implications of cultural criticism.
  259. [09:45:21] <stealthsuit> Not all of us want to be told how sexist a game is
  260. [09:45:21] <stealthsuit> In fact, any such reporting just makes me ignore the article
  261. [09:45:21] <%fotts> The large issue is that it's extremely rare for the "critics" to become so homogenised (same opinion across Vox, Kotaku, Polygon, Gamasutra, etc), and outright censor/ignore/attack its core demographic.
  262. [09:45:33] <basedtc> stealthsuit the obvious response is not to read it
  263. [09:46:00] <stealthsuit> Shouldn't games journalists be able to provide a balanced response or increase the political diversity of their staff, then?
  264. [09:46:09] <%fotts> But when it's industry wide, and it causes wide spread defamation? basedtc ? Need I remind you of the creator of Cards Against Humanity
  265. [09:46:13] <stealthsuit> Maybe I want to read a review that doesn't sound exactly like all the other ones.
  266. [09:46:17] <basedtc> fotts I think that's a conspiracy theory, it's like charges of "liberal media" -- inclusivity is a prevailing perspective now it doesn't constitute cronyism
  267. [09:46:17] <%fotts> Or the group behind dragon's crown
  268. [09:47:06] <Moltar> basedtc so you don't think the thunderous denouncement of anyone who dissents to that ideology is symptomatic of a problem to do with homogeneity?
  269. <<2nd time asked (3rd including fotts' iteration of the same question), no response>>
  270.  
  271. [09:47:19] <basedtc> "objective" game reviews in the sense of not saying anything about its cultural import are not objective, they are just as political because they protect the status quo
  272. [09:47:24] <%fotts> there was inclusivity regardless, but by spamming those slant pieces, more and more people will take them at face value, regardless of the validity. Saying the industry and community are sexist with no substantive evidence infact scares women away from the industry and community, slowing down the march.
  273. [09:47:47] <%fotts> It's how political campaigns works
  274. [09:47:54] <@Thidran> The problem with the slant is you don't hold up positive examples.
  275. [09:48:05] <basedtc> like this comment that was just made in kotakuinaction is one of the reasons people are reacting to GG: "i'm tired of white feminists trying to change stuff because they're butthurt about a little thing "
  276. [09:48:32] <basedtc> the industry is sexist! there's a ton of evidence!
  277. [09:48:36] <%fotts> You do need to realise it's mostly white men speaking on behalf of women about feminism, basedtc
  278. [09:48:55] <basedtc> yeah and that's sad I wish I had more female colleagues
  279. [09:49:00] <%fotts> Seems kind of counterintuitive, no?
  280. [09:49:00] <basedtc> but it doesn't invalidate an argument
  281. [09:49:16] <%fotts> It's invalidated because they ignore women that disagree with them
  282. [09:49:16] <basedtc> you know, a lot of women are afraid to speak out online about things
  283. [09:49:37] <stealthsuit> basedtc: Max Temkin is a feminist, yet he got thrown under the bus because people didn't get their facts straight
  284. [09:49:42] <Moltar> basedtc it's a poorly worded comment.  Perhaps it would better written as "I'm tired of white feminists trying to coerce change because they're butthurt about little things'
  285. [09:49:45] <stealthsuit> To the point where he had to apologize for being accused of rape
  286. [09:49:50] <TheBaconFromHell> idk what you are saying basedtc, I spoke with a couple female developers.
  287. [09:50:08] <basedtc> and?
  288. [09:50:10] <TheBaconFromHell> I think everyone here did.
  289. [09:50:20] <TheBaconFromHell> none of them were afraid to speak out.
  290. [09:50:28] <basedtc> that's... anecdotal
  291. [09:50:29] <@Thidran> Some aren't, some are.
  292. [09:50:39] <basedtc> "not all female developers"
  293. [09:50:42] <%fotts> Also Roberta Williams, and the Video Series made by TFYC want to talk to you. Also the lead designer for Bayonetta, and the Executive at FromSOFT
  294. [09:51:00] <%fotts> Also the women from the Women of GamerGate Streams
  295. [09:51:01] <TheBaconFromHell> one said that they wanted to make more female protagonists however demographics and sales and such wouldn't allow it.
  296. [09:51:03] <@Thidran> based: Alright, here's one bit to think on...you might think that harassment is a gendered issue due to the methods trolls have been using...
  297. [09:51:11] <basedtc> nobody is saying women are not part of gamergate
  298. [09:51:21] <@Thidran> But what you might not notice is the trolls tailor their insults to derive the most pain.
  299. [09:51:37] <@Thidran> What women have shown the trolls is apparently their gender gives them the most pain.
  300. [09:51:42] <@Thidran> And thus, gendered insults by them.
  301. [09:52:14] <%fotts> Also, tell me of this evidence of sexism, basedtc
  302.  
  303. [09:52:22] <basedtc> thebaconfromhell doesn't that indicate sexism
  304. [09:52:33] <basedtc> that demographics and sales wouldn't support making more female protagonists
  305. [09:52:42] <Moltar> basedtc I think you'd agree that journalists are obligated to report in the interests of their readers (in our industry's case: consumers).  I think fundamentally, one of the main differences between ourselves and you is the idea of 'the consumers' best interests'.
  306. [09:52:48] <%fotts> Look at Dota2, and Lol, basedtc
  307. [09:52:49] <basedtc> that doesn't just speak to sexism in the games industry, it speaks to the sexism of its audience
  308. [09:52:56] <@Thidran> Oh boy...
  309. [09:53:02] <%fotts> Costume sales at Vindictus
  310. [09:53:08] <stealthsuit> Female protagonists have been made since games started
  311. [09:53:16] <%fotts> Also the people who main as women in the FGC, and fighting games in general
  312. [09:53:27] <Moltar> basedtc but don't you find it strange that, as journalists, you're arguing with consumers about what is best for them?  As if you'd know better than us?  What right do you think you have to decide this?
  313. [09:53:33] <basedtc> you guys are cherry picking examples and not seeing the forest
  314.  
  315. [09:54:13] <basedtc> moltar nobody is telling consumers what's best for them as far as I know
  316. [09:54:28] <stealthsuit> Well, actually
  317. [09:54:29] <stealthsuit> they are, TC
  318. [09:54:31] <basedtc> by way of analogy
  319. [09:55:16] <Moltar> basedtc but you are essentially ordering people who disagree with this radfem rhetoric to shut up and swallow it, because you know what's best and they don't.  Just look at the rhetoric about entitled manbaby misogynists.
  320. [09:55:43] <Moltar> basedtc it's exactly what you are doing
  321. <<people continue to name games with female protagonists & strong female characters>>
  322. [09:56:52] <basedtc> that's kind of a warped way of looking at it. a lot of people are saying that games portray women in a bad light (hint: just having a woman in a game does not constitute inclusivity)
  323. [09:57:06] <Moltar> basedtc how is it warped?
  324. [09:57:33] <basedtc> you're framing it as people telling consumers what they should want, this isn't about consumers it's about people -- it's a social reaction that has very little to actually do with video games
  325. [09:57:39] <basedtc> it's a battle that's been fought all over the place
  326. [09:57:41] <basedtc> in the tech industry
  327. [09:57:43] <basedtc> in hollywood
  328. [09:58:39] <Moltar> basedtc sorry but this is a free market, and it IS about consumers whether you want it to be or not.
  329. [09:59:07] <basedtc> sorry I was unclear, it's not about consumers in the sense of this is not just an economic issue
  330.  
  331. [10:01:56] <Moltar> basedtc so what gives you the justification for belittling the concerns of your consumers.  You can't just hide behind the claim that it's a 'societal reaction' which you have no control over and everyone is just going to have to accept it, don't shoot the messenger guys.
  332. [10:02:06] <basedtc> it's deeply hypocritical to on the one hand demand that people (especially journalists) take video games seriously and on the other hand denounce anything that looks at them critically for what they are (often sexist, sometimes racist, etc)
  333. [10:02:19] <Moltar> this is a very specific rhetoric being pushed with very specific ambitions and implications
  334. [10:02:26] <%fotts> The consumer disagrees en masse
  335. [10:02:28] <Moltar> it should be thoroughly scrutinized and properly so
  336. [10:02:36] <%fotts> So, there's probably a reason for that, basedtc
  337. [10:02:43] <Moltar> and the consumers are going to do that by themselves if the journalists make no attempt
  338. [10:02:45] <Moltar> this is gamergate
  339. [10:02:46] <TheBaconFromHell> yknow the saying "everyones a critic"
  340. [10:02:53] <%fotts> lol
  341.  
  342. [10:03:27] <%fotts> We already have people to replace you, but we don't want you to continue to abuse your consumer base
  343. [10:03:38] <%fotts> We don't think you are deserving
  344. [10:03:48] <%fotts> So there goes your clicks, and your advertisers
  345. [10:03:49] <basedtc> that sounds pretty entitled and childish to be honest
  346. [10:03:55] <%fotts> Not really
  347. [10:03:57] <Moltar> lmao
  348. [10:03:57] <Standard> Pffft.
  349. [10:04:00] <%fotts> I'm a consumer
  350. [10:04:04] <basedtc> so?
  351. [10:04:05] <basedtc> everyone is
  352. [10:04:11] <basedtc> what does that have to do with sexism in video games
  353. [10:04:17] <%fotts> It means it is your job to adequately represent the games to us
  354. [10:04:18] <basedtc> and criticism of it
  355. [10:04:22] <%fotts> If you say they are sexist
  356. [10:04:27] <%fotts> and everyone else disagrees
  357. [10:04:32] <Standard> "You're entitled to think that a website for gamers should not hate gamers"
  358. [10:04:34] <TheBaconFromHell> its ok to criticise games. Just not people.
  359. [10:04:35] <basedtc> that's bullshit if you think adequate representation of video games means no cultural observation
  360. [10:04:42] <TheBaconFromHell> the consumers.
  361. [10:05:27] <Moltar> basedtc so what you're saying is journalists are fully justified in pushing propaganda as long as they see it as some uncontrollable sea of change symbolic of societal evolution, and that anyone who wants that change properly examined, scrutinized, and criticized is an entitled baby?
  362. [10:05:28] <basedtc> I am supposed to represent the truth
  363. [10:05:31] <basedtc> as a journalist
  364. [10:05:35] <basedtc> not any one party
  365. [10:05:41] <@Thidran> Correct.l
  366. [10:05:56] <@Thidran> Would you like us to point out factually inaccurate pieces of your article?
  367. [10:06:23] <basedtc> lol
  368.  
  369. [10:06:31] <stealthsuit> In a democracy, the wishes of the people represent the manifestation of their interests. What's happening with the fourth estate in gaming right now is an anti-democratic feeling; either journalists learn to balance their ideals with their reporting or their parent companies should hire people with opposing worldviews to make reviews and reporting. What you seem to be missing here is
  370. [10:06:31] <stealthsuit> that the Fourth Estate is meant to be perused with varying sources for multiple viewpoints. We are seeing ONE viewpoint.
  371. [10:06:47] <basedtc> that's not a correct view of journalism
  372. [10:06:56] <basedtc> if you think it exists to align with your interests
  373. [10:07:33] <Moltar> basedtc right, but we are alleging that YOU are the one who thinks journalism exists to align to your interests
  374. [10:07:47] <Moltar> we are voicing our concerns as consumers
  375. [10:07:59] <basedtc> and you are not only seeing one viewpoint, there are all kinds of viewpoints being espoused, but there's a history of Gamergate and it has a character based on the outsize response of its biggest trolls
  376. [10:08:00] <Moltar> we don't have the same voice or power that journalists do
  377. [10:08:21] <stealthsuit> No, basedtc, ALL stories, on EVERY game for the past 16 months at least
  378. [10:08:23] <stealthsuit> have had the same party line
  379. [10:08:26] <basedtc> gamers who don't want to hear criticism of games they like are mistaken in thinking they are underdogs
  380. [10:08:29] <stealthsuit> There's no diversity of thought.
  381. [10:08:33] <basedtc> that's hyperbole
  382. [10:08:43] <stealthsuit> Maybe it is.
  383. [10:08:53] <stealthsuit> But so it is to claim we're the patriarchy's children
  384.  
  385. [10:08:55] <basedtc> let me ask a question here
  386. [10:09:04] <Moltar> go ahead
  387. [10:09:09] <basedtc> what is the opposite of the party line you're talking about
  388. [10:09:14] <basedtc> what is the other viewpoint
  389. [10:09:23] <basedtc> that no games are sexist? that the industry has no issues?
  390. [10:09:27] <stealthsuit> No
  391. [10:09:29] <@Thidran> No.
  392. [10:11:21] <+Moltar> basedtc I have no problem with ideologically driven criticism.  Whatsoever.  IMO the people who are say they want nothing to do with that are just uneducated.  My problem is with the problems of cronyism and nepotism stemming from the homogeneity of that ideology in the industry.
  393. [10:12:07] <+basedtc> Moltar I've just seen no evidence that it exists unless your problem is with companies hiring people that share similar views
  394. [10:12:13] <@Thidran> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/12314-The-Methods-of-Journalism-Have-Changed-Doing-It-Correctly-Hasn-t
  395. [10:12:38] <+Moltar> basedtc this is fascinating to me that you are so insistant this problem does not exist
  396. [10:12:39] <@Thidran> It's not a gaming piece though, but is relevant to the realities of clickbait journalism.
  397. [10:13:25] <+basedtc> I read this escapist piece, it's another old guy meeting the reality of new media :)
  398. [10:13:30] <@Thidran> Indeed.
  399. [10:13:40] <@Thidran> But even if he is an old guy, it's a good viewpoint to look at.
  400. [10:13:55] <+basedtc> sure, I just don't think it's really informative about gamergate per se
  401. [10:14:06] <@Thidran> It is actually.
  402. [10:14:31] <@Thidran> Because it assists in a critical issue in it: What makes good journalism? He is attempting to inform what does.
  403. [10:14:37] <+basedtc> reviews are opinion, not news
  404. [10:14:41] <@Thidran> It doesn't necessarily mean he is succeeding though.
  405. [10:14:49] <@Thidran> Reviews are a mix of opinion and fact.
  406. [10:15:07] <@Thidran> They're inherently subjective, but there are objective criteria you can deploy.
  407. [10:15:22] <@Thidran> (It's a fine balance though.)
  408.  
  409. [10:15:36] <+Moltar> basedtc I suppose we should ask, even though we've become so used to ignoring the insults, what's with your fetishization of the image of gamers as entitled, privileged, misogynist, white, male, straight, cis, manbaby sociopaths?
  410. [10:15:48] <@Thidran> Moltar: Remember...
  411. [10:15:56] <@Thidran> These folk regularly are stuck seeing trolls day in and day out.
  412. [10:15:56] <+basedtc> sure, but mostly what I'm hearing from GG supporters is that they want "objective" reviews based on only facts (read: no cultural/political analysis)
  413. [10:16:13] <@Thidran> He doesn't usually get to meet even the informed folk, let alone the average joe.
  414. [10:16:48] <@Thidran> In reviews? No, I don't want excessive cultural/political analysis.
  415. [10:16:53] <@Thidran> Those are better served in Op Eds.
  416. [10:16:56] <+Moltar> basedtc that's an idiotic viewpoint and is rightly ridiculed, imo
  417. [10:16:56] <+basedtc> moltar I don't remotely think that represents all gamers, but privileged white men drove mass consumer adoption of video games and video game content reflects their preferences still, even if the makeup of video game consumers looks radically different
  418. [10:17:19] <+basedtc> I'm one of them
  419. [10:18:17] <+basedtc> so I think there's room for both thidran
  420. [10:18:30] <+basedtc> there are a lot of people who just want what is basically industry hype in news and reviews
  421. [10:18:35] <@Thidran> Indeed.
  422. [10:18:38] <+basedtc> they want to get GameInformer and see the inside scoop on stuff
  423. [10:18:43] <+basedtc> from the mouth of the companies they like
  424. [10:18:44] <+basedtc> I get that
  425. [10:18:54] <+basedtc> I don't think anybody is saying there's no *market* for that
  426.  
  427. [10:18:57] <+Moltar> from a purely economic standpoint, don't you think you're compromising the duty of journalists to their readers in pushing ideological change within a free market.  What if you're wrong about that change being the right change, for example?
  428. [10:19:23] <+Moltar> you have incredible power to enforce that change after all
  429. [10:19:34] <+basedtc> that's a weird idea moltar, I don't really get it. are you saying it's our job to agree with however people spend money?
  430. [10:19:45] <+Moltar> no
  431. [10:20:15] <+Moltar> all I'm saying is, I don't think you've properly considered the possibility that you might be wrong in using your power to push your rhetoric
  432. [10:20:45] <+Moltar> because if you are wrong, then you've grossly compromised your obligation to act in the interests of your readers and in the interests of furthering truth
  433. [10:20:46] <@Thidran> If words aren't carefully placed, they can cause great damage.
  434. [10:20:59] <@Thidran> (See: Gamers are dead articles as an example.)
  435. [10:21:09] <@Thidran> Yes, I read through several of them.
  436. [10:21:18] <+Moltar> you have immense power, in one of the most valuable industries in the world
  437. [10:21:25] <+basedtc> I have no obligation to act in the economic interest of my readers
  438. [10:21:26] <+Moltar> consumers are saying en masse that you're abusing that power
  439. [10:21:32] <+basedtc> that would actually be a form of corruption
  440. [10:21:35] <+Moltar> and yet you dismiss their concerns as nothing at all
  441. [10:21:35] <+basedtc> if I did that
  442. [10:21:44] <+Moltar> you don't even think there could be a danger to your actions?
  443. [10:21:54] <+basedtc> what is the danger? that games become more egalitarian?
  444. [10:22:04] <@Thidran> based: They already are becoming more egalitarian.
  445. [10:22:21] <@Thidran> In fact, I've been supporting said games by putting my money where my mouth is.
  446. [10:22:37] <@Thidran> And not buying games I lack interest in.
  447. [10:22:39] <+Moltar> the danger is that whatever idealization of the change you think you're pushing for might not end up being in the best interests of your consumers
  448. [10:22:48] <+Moltar> and a lot of your consumers seem to think that is the case
  449.  
  450. [10:22:56] <+basedtc> sorry folks -- I really appreciate the conversation we had this morning but I have to get back to my duties, news cycle is calling me
  451. [10:23:01] <@Thidran> Sure thing.
  452. [10:23:04] <@Thidran> Appreciate your time.
  453. [10:23:10] <@Thidran> Welcome to come back whenever.
  454. [10:23:10] <+Moltar> ^ thanks for talking to us
  455. [10:23:16] <+basedtc> cheers
  456. <<End>>
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