a guest Oct 3rd, 2017 391 Never
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  1. Hey Martin,
  3. I have a childhood friend I grew up with. It was not until a couple of years ago, now that he is married to a woman and has two children that he confessed that all his life he believed and believes he is a woman
  4. trapped in a man's body. His whole life (since early childhood), he hid the fact that he dressed up as a girl and then woman and would get into affairs with men. This was shocking because I thought I knew him. So did his wife for that matter.
  6. People hide things, Martin. They do this for a variety of reasons. You spent time with Bryn and know *some* things about him from observations and what he was willing to share. He also hid a lot from you as well.
  7. Bryn hid the fact from Roger Richards at Extreme that the two studio musicians credited on Z'ulm are actually him. Bryn denied the O.g. Oblique Graph tape to Steven Wilson's face and denied he had anything to do with it. Bryn's own family had no clue what he was up to. Andrew Hulme thought Bryn hated Japan and was alienated and Satoshi Morita said Bryn loved Japan and was engaged. And so on.
  9. You were a friend to Bryn, to a point. You would not discuss his politics with him, which was tremendously important to him. However, by all accounts, he liked you (and Faye) otherwise he would not keep dealing with you/her. You found common ground in other areas and built a friendship around that, namely football. Bryn was a Man United fan and you are an Arsenals fan...if memory serves.
  11. There are many reasons I can think of that he would not want you to know that he actually had *some* readies in the bank. There are also reasons that he would not share that he did shows with others in Europe.
  12. Like this one in 1998:  (Hardly little old England.) Bryn had many irons in many fires going and while he did not get all his deserved funds, he got *some*.
  14. During the mid 90's, Simon Scott claimed to have viewed Bryn's bedroom and said it was empty. Bryn's family, including his nephew Gareth said they could barely get in he had so much gear, especially when they were clearing it out. Who is right? Both of them. We just don't know the explanations. Life is not tidy. It is full of contradictions. Perhaps at the time he spoke to you, Bryn's finances were skint. But money came in. A respectable sum. That could be just as likely as him hiding the fact he had readies.
  16. So to clear the low/high budget debate. Bryn was both. You hear Azzazin and you get one Bryn. You play Gun Aramaic (Part 2) and you get another Bryn entirely. His tracks range from all bedroom to all studio and varieties in between. Now, I am sure there are many devices that can store and trigger audio samples. By one account, Bryn used his drum machine as a sampler. You said Bryn's music is simple, and so is Mauritz Von Oswald aka Maurizio's 'M Series'. Good luck coming up with something like it. Maurizio confounded generations of producers.
  18. Delf/Becker did not know how Bryn got his sounds, and here is a clue. Geert Jann found bags of DATs in Bryn's bedroom with no tracks, just textures. Bryn would experiment constantly and come up with things that perplexed engineers because he sometimes used things in ways not meant to be used (A very Eno-like approach). Another clue, Vote Hezbollah had guitar sounds, but used in ways not intended. Same with the studio, Delf helped Bryn use it in ways not intended. Frequencies were put on recordings that only ultra high-end speakers could play back. That was a Bryn joke.
  20. You have one piece to the rebus puzzle that is Bryn. Other people have other pieces. Only God knows where they all fit, if you believe in one. I just think it is hubris to say you know someone, even if you grew up with him, shared many meals with him and was at his wedding, etc etc. Stuff is always hidden.
  22. As for how great Bryn's music actually it, I am sure history will tell us. But we will be long dead by then.
  23. "somehow if you say something enough everyone will eventually believe it."
  24. " but I have no interest in making up something that just isn't true just because people find it unbelievable"  <----------Neither do I, Martin. I am going on the word of a variety of other people, not just yours, and from that I put together an imperfect quilt of observations, because people are not perfect and they don't tell you everything.
  26. For the record, one of the coolest people I met is Simon Crab, who believes (apart from Buddhist on Fire, which he released) that all Muslimgauze music is rubbish. But Crab was tremendously helpful. Who is right, me or him? We both are. I wrote a book on Bryn, but I confess, I know sweet fuck-all about him. Just some people, like his family, have different recollections about Bryn. And that's okay.
  28. Faye makes amazing food by the way. I could clean out your guys' fridge any time.
  30. Ibrahim
  33. On 2017-10-02 06:35 PM, F STEPHENSON [islamaphonia2] wrote:
  35. Ibrahim,
  37. I knew him well enough to know he was not tech minded, couldn't and didn't use samplers unless you count a beaten up old 606 and a borrow on an EPS. What would be the point of a sampler with no software/computer to drive it? He was, however, quite brilliant with tape. Rather boringly, I'd like you to re-read my posts. He mastered his recordings {or at least some} with the very talented John Delf etc in the studio with the engineers allowing him to add layers. Anyone dismissing Bryn's low budget approach is missing the point altogether. He believed you simply could not get a true loop without using tape, didn't trust cu-base/logic etc at the time, and the loops are his overall main sound along with the warmth of the valves. I have never dismissed Bryn for being a low budget recording artist, but he simply was. Doesn't make him any less excellent...and I take offence that you believe I thought of my friend as clueless. Yes, he used studios at times, but you don't seem to be able to appreciate that he often didn't.
  39. If Delf et el don't know how he created his sound then I'm surprised, especially if they were in the studio with him. I do. I guess that's not because I'm also a sound engineer with over 30 years experience, it's because he told me! No mystery, not to me anyway.
  41. His boxes of kit were mainly percussion, { he was a good musician} and in fact most were auctioned. His final recording {with me} was on a borrowed reel to reel as his other one had broken down.
  43. For the record, actually , I love the sound he created which made me become acquainted with him in the first place, and I do accept that he also used studios, however, if you tell me that this guy that I knew over a few years, stayed with me, shared food with him because he had just enough money to get home again had wads of cash then I'm surprised. I just can't see how, not by earning £100 max at a gig in London now and then, or the France gig we put on where he attended. His cd's certainly were not selling loads at the time. Maybe he was paid loads of money from a mystery benefactor.
  45. I never said he was a luddite, and I know you don't really think I meant that. I believe he was very talented, and very driven. He was an artist, and yes, agreed, he blows most things away even now...but his recording process was very simple, and on the whole, a little random. He could easily knock out an album in a day, and, in fact, that part of his process I admit astounded me. He could churn out tracks non stop. From his bedroom.
  47. Anyway, that's a big reason why I'm a little sick of this forum, as I feel the people that actually knew him are ignored and treated as though we really didn't know anything about the guy really, and that somehow if you say something enough everyone will eventually believe it. He was a good guy who I found warm, funny, a little awkward and had a real talent for using the very little at his disposal for making great art/music. Ibrahim, you are also a great guy who I've shared pizza with at my house and you have a real interest and passion for this mans work, but please don't pretend I don't know what I'm talking about because it doesn't fit with other peoples versions.
  49. I simply knew this side of him, and this is how I witnessed him recording and performing. Others have different experiences perhaps but his process, although admirable and astonishing in their output and sound, was quite straightforward, it was a case of using what he had around him that worked for him, be that a tape loop or a mixing desk.
  51. You can try to pull me over the coals all you want, but I have no interest in making up something that just isn't true just because people find it unbelievable you can create good music using found sound, percussion, DAT and a reel to reel. Lets not pretend he was Mozart, he was an obscure outsider artist that hardly anyone had heard of in his lifetime making some great sounds that some of us think is really cool, and that should be enough for us whether he made it at Sarm, Abbey Road or his kitchen.
  53. Peace,
  59. On Monday, 2 October 2017, 22:31, "ikhider [islamaphonia2]" <> wrote:
  63. Well, you see, this is classic Bryn Jones. To you he showed one persona, and to others he showed something else. Bryn's family indicated that Bryn had enough to get another Revox (when his broke down), and then some. So why did he not buy another? Who knows. Maybe there was something else he was saving up for.
  65. There are people who beg and borrow even though they have funds. I used to work in a brokerage firm and a broker I worked for bummed transit tokens off of me even though he was a millionaire. He hated to break a 20 dollar bill. Bryn would eat from someone else's leftover plate at a restaurant, but he did have enough to buy a nice dinner if he wanted to. It's an old story. Someone wearing rags, but they own a Leica camera.
  67. That is not to say Bryn was a millionaire, but he was focusing his funds. Bryn was not the kind to waste his money and would rather look/act like a pauper but spend on gear. His family said it took a full day to empty his bedroom of equipment. Bryn was not technical minded, sure. But he was no luddite either. He knew a lot more than he let on.
  69. As for not having a sampler...hrm. You may want to double check that. Also, Bryn never begged for studio time. Delf said Bryn was quite prompt about payment and never questioned the amount. Geert-Jan observed that when Bryn was paid for a gig, such as the ones in Germany with Rashad Becker doing the audio goodies,
  70. Bryn shoved the cash in his pocket without counting it. Hardly pauper-like behavior.
  72. Sure, Bryn was doing gigs in the UK, but also Europe as well.
  74. I don't think you can put Bryn in a neat and tidy box and say, 'oh, he was just making loops on low quality gear'. Rather you have a more complicated and nuanced person who did not want to reveal his secrets and techniques and would love for you to have the impression that he was clueless.
  76. I put my confidence on Rashad Becker and John Delf, seasoned studio engineers who both observed that Bryn could do things that they had no clue how.
  78. ----"On the flip side, there were plenty of artists making great music with very low budget equipment even 20, 30 or even 40 years ago. You believe what you want to believe though."----
  79. What are you talking about here? You have Lee Scratch Perry who built his own studio gear because he could not afford to buy any. That produces a certain kind of sound. Now pick up Hamas Arc, there is no way that could be made in a bedroom or even on hand-built studio with hand-built gear unless you are a Vulcan or Data. Apples and bowling balls, my friend. If you don't like it, that's a different matter, but that IS a studio album. I took Bryn's studio discs to more than one hi-fi shop and though Muslimgauze is not their cup of tea, the workers there, who listen to stuff all day, acknowledge that Muslimgauze sounds great. So the fellow who asked about Bryn Jones and studios, that is what we are addressing here. If you think it is not a masterpiece, that is your privilege. But don't tell me this is not studio work.
  81. What I love about Bryn are his contradictions. One person swears that Bryn had Asperger syndrome and another swears he was 'normal'.
  83. I believe that Bryn was one complex person, an enigma. And for what it's worth, the music is fucking A W E S O M E. I was listening to A LOT of electronic music streaming today and because of this discussion I put on some 'Gauze. Screw-me-to-the-sidewalk, Martin, 'Gauze sounds night and day to the deluge of stuff out there.  
  85. : - D
  87. If you think I am dragging you over the coals, my discussions with Mo are worse. He is the king of granular 'Gauze details. He wins hands down.
  89. Ibrahim
  92. On 2017-10-02 04:39 PM, F STEPHENSON [islamaphonia2] wrote:
  94. If you read through my post I did mention that I was speaking around the later years, and in my opinion, actually, the Extreme recordings were very average and didn't have much of his own sound. Each to their own though.
  96. Also, I did say that he created mostly at home, using tape loops...the layering and mastering was obviously carried out by Delf. He made some good recordings, but let's not pretend they're  sonic masterpieces. Clever, and difficult, but not total genius.  On the flip side, there were plenty of artists making great music with very low budget equipment even 20, 30 or even 40 years ago. You believe what you want to believe though.
  98. ...and, no, when I knew Bryn towards the last few years of his life he had very little funds.
  100. Oh, and Bryn didn't do a whole lot of touring in the last year of his life. A few gigs here and there in little old England, but I don't remember any far away gigs...although I remember Japan the year previous at some point. Certainly no "tour"..he never did.
  102. Bryn was my friend, and I worked with him for a while. To think people actually believe that he spent his recording life full of kit around him makes me smile, it just isn't true at all. He couldn't use a computer or sampler and owned neither. He borrowed equipment sometimes but used his reel to reel consistently. Yes, he used studios now and then but begged and borrowed studio time. The only photo i ever remember with equipment behind him was at my Friends Law and Order studios in South London. {He didn't use it, he just visited us!} He wasn't tech minded in the slightest.
  104. Anyway, carry on with the legend...however you want to think about this artist he will remain special to all of us for different reasons.
  106. Best
  107. APOLLON
  111. On Monday, 2 October 2017, 20:32, "ikhider [islamaphonia2]" <> wrote:
  115. To further flog this dead horse,
  117. I think 'Fatah Guerilla' was the last Abraham Mosque session
  120. But the Mort Aux Vaches session may have been the last 'studio' session:
  123. Delf mentioned that he had not seen Bryn in the last year of his life. A couple of reasons for this. One, Bryn was touring a lot. Two, he was busy amassing more gear for his bedroom studio. Apparently, some stuff was still in boxes when he passed away. Keep in mind, Bryn's bank account was not exactly empty when he passed away.
  125. Perhaps professional studios would have factored less in Bryn's work had he survived his illness.  Or maybe he would balance them.  
  127. We don't know for sure.
  129. Tantalizing thoughts though...
  131. Ibrahim
  133. On 2017-10-02 01:40 PM, ikhider [islamaphonia2] wrote:
  135. Hi Apollon,
  137. Hmm, you may want to give the Extreme release sessions a listen. Hardly bedroom.
  139. The Abraham Moss studios is not bedroom either. It is a well-equipped studio with some very nice gear. This is not to say Bryn was not bedroom. Bryn shelled-out for 8 hours of engineering sessions at the Abraham Moss Studios. Not cheap!
  140. What you take for granted today via software was a big freaking deal back then.
  142. Pick up Z'ulm. United States of Islam. Heck, Vote Hezbollah.,,,if Bryn Jones did that in his bedroom, then Steve Albini, Martin Hannett, Phil Spector had absolutely nothing on him and music was not his real genius.  : - b
  144. The fly on the wall, that would be Mossad, of course. Look up their late 80's/90's dissidents file. It will be in the audio section.
  146. -I-
  148. On 2017-10-02 06:14 AM, F STEPHENSON [islamaphonia2] wrote:
  150. Hi all,
  152. Again, not how I remember Bryn at all.
  154. I remember him being incredibly low budget, which is a good reason why his sound is quite unique.
  156. Listen to them again. They are mainly tape loops from reel to reels. He used a revox .recorded directly on to DAT. {at least the later years.} The majority of the works were found sound, very rarely original, He did add a little percussion occasionally, but not all the time. Most of his recordings were created like this, on his own, in his bedroom and then mastered by Delf.
  158. There is no big sonic secret or money behind the works, just advanced creativity and determination.
  160. APOLLON
  163. On Monday, 2 October 2017, 6:56, "Hazel Ludlow [islamaphonia2]" <> wrote:
  167. a fly on the wall for those sessions would be...
  169. On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 11:10 PM, ikhider [islamaphonia2] <> wrote:
  171. Hi,
  173. I think it was in 1988 with The Rape of Palestine (1988). I do see an engineer called 'Roger' credited.
  175. Then Stalplaat with Iran (they released the first Muslimgauze  CD (after another label tried and folded before it could come to fruition).
  177. Also, Roger Richards of Extreme wanted a certain kind of sound for the new Muslimgauze albums, so they budgeted for a studio.
  179. I think Vote Hezbollah was the first album engineered by John Delf. Bryn just showed up looking for an engineer and Delf happened to be on hand. Bryn worked with him from then until the end.
  181. As for how did Bryn Jones come to this consideration, he would probably be the last person to tell you. Best answer I can think of, 'because he wanted a special sound and knew he needed a studio to achieve it.'
  183. They did not have the kind of cool studio software we have now. If you wanted more depth, effects, sound quality and production options, you needed a studio with an engineer.
  185. However, I also know Bryn was trying to build a professional studio in his bedroom. He got awfully close just before he died.
  187. That said, there is a way that you record acoustic instruments, like drums, that really needs good acoustics (like room with the right kind of deadness to it). Also, studio monitors, console can only fit so much in a bedroom which may have been 3 meters by three meters.
  188. Software just does not cut it. You need special mics for drums, the correct positioning of mic's, you need mic's for chimes or singers, or whatever else. Some kinds of albums you can make at home, other kinds, you really need a pro studio. Sure, there are hacks, but it just saves
  189. time, money, and nerve to go somewhere and do it.
  191. Hope that helps,
  193. Ibrahim
  196. On 2017-08-25 08:24 PM, Pavel Li [islamaphonia2] wrote:
  198. My question is simple: when was the first time Bryn started implementing professional experience of a sound engineer and specialized equipment of commercial recording studios? How did he come to that concideration.? I assume there are people here who know such information. Thanks.
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