tmbjorlo Jul 21st, 2019 260 Never
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  16. [05:05:11] <vinay> it's circular a calm body is the condition for a calm mind like a feedback loop, A calm mind is the condition for a calm body. 'From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. '
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  18. [05:06:07] <heathen_> mind calmed by conditions is not calm but suppressed
  19. [05:07:06] <heathen_> calm or not calm, awareness will stand on its own and only without condition
  20. [05:09:05] <vinay> the mind.
  21. [05:10:01] <vinay> awareness is conditional upon mind and body sensing the world.
  22. [05:10:28] <vinay> inner and outer.
  23. [05:16:12] <heathen_> there has to be a sound to listen to and an ear to hear the sound, but that is not anything related to setting conditional attitudes or schemes of the mind, to require calmness to be aware of those sounds
  24. [05:17:03] <vinay> TNH says it really well, we inter-are.
  25. [05:17:35] <vinay> not just you and me but you and everything from the flower to the planets and stars.
  26. [05:17:37] <heathen_> its same word but its not the same meaning. i cant tell if you actually conflate the two different meanings or just do so support your predetermination that calm is a requirement
  27. [05:18:15] <vinay> Samsara is a misrepresentation of reality.
  28. [05:18:19] <vinay> imo.
  29. [05:18:23] <vinay> a delusion.
  30. [05:19:56] <heathen_> delusion is to make the condition of ear to hear sound with the condition that calm is required for awareness
  31. [05:19:57] <vinay> Dependent Origination wasn't my idea heathen_, something I read ;) and it made sense to me, the mind body peace circular thing was me :)
  32. [05:20:35] <vinay> if one wants to know the state of the mind, pay attention to the body...and vice versa
  33. [05:20:37] <vinay> imo
  34. [05:20:54] <vinay> mind and body are one :)
  35. [05:22:15] <heathen_> its not the want to know that will result in paying attention. it is rather the need to understand. and perhaps it is the ability to appreciate the difference
  36. [05:24:16] <heathen_> conditions of ear to hear sound is a false, and condition of calm to be aware is a false equivalence
  37. [05:24:22] <vinay> yeah, to understand...
  38. [05:24:27] <vinay> [The Buddha:] "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.
  39. [05:25:32] <vinay> all is burning, it's a war zone out there.
  40. [05:26:04] <heathen_>  conditions of ear to hear sound and condition of calm to be aware is a false equivalence* i was trying to say
  41. [05:26:06] <vinay> I was tempted to say Ha, but it's not funny.
  42. [05:26:55] <vinay> a clear mind and body is a condition for equanimity, even...
  43. [05:28:04] <vinay> a confused mind is not equanimous but it can choose to calm the boy and the two will come out the better.
  44. [05:28:16] <vinay> boy=body
  45. [05:28:53] <heathen_> its a war zone if ones own mind is in conflict with itself, absent of internal conflict and its not possible to say its a war zone to the exclusion of any other possiblity like 'its a wonderful life' or 'there is joy and beauty in daily life if one is sensitive and alert'
  46. [05:29:39] <vinay> to be sensitive one needs to be calm and aware
  47. [05:30:33] <vinay> it seems ego isn't so big as when mind thinks there is a problem.
  48. [05:31:10] <heathen_> when did calm become a requirement for sensitive or aware?
  49. [05:31:34] <vinay> if there is only "one" mind, the conflict can only be with itself.
  50. [05:31:35] <heathen_> there might be calm, there might not be calm. it  doesnt matter
  51. [05:32:14] <vinay> if there is not calm, one can tend to error...
  52. [05:32:25] <vinay> better with calm.
  53. [05:32:31] <heathen_> if awareness cant be sustain past calm it wasnt awareness with calm
  54. [05:33:37] <heathen_> if by 'error' you mean delusion, setting calm as a condition for awareness is a prime example of error
  55. [05:34:06] <vinay> awareness of the breath always brings me quiet, even without the thought "Shhh..."
  56. [05:34:39] <vinay> the toolbox has many tools, but not all are needed every time.
  57. [05:35:28] <vinay> where is the suppression in a Mother soothing her stressed and crying child ?
  58. [05:35:53] <heathen_> i dont know really, but from previous conversations it could well be that the "shhh..." has been habituated to a subconscious thought level, a program that runs beneath conscious thought, like a mantra or any other form of self-hypnosis
  59. [05:36:15] <vinay> mind is largely conditioned to want happiness and it will down right get angry to get it, lol
  60. [05:36:21] <vinay> that's delusion, ;)
  61. [05:36:56] <vinay> I've broken lots of habits in my time here...
  62. [05:37:01] <vinay> 100's
  63. [05:37:28] <vinay> a habit is not a life sentence.
  64. [05:37:30] <heathen_> replacing one habit with a different habit is not breaking habitual behavior
  65. [05:37:56] <heathen_> awareness is the end of habitual behavior
  66. [05:38:34] <heathen_> awareness is precisely no habit
  67. [05:40:51] <vinay> some habits do make life a bit easier ;)
  68. [05:41:31] <vinay> I keep things in "their" place. So I can find them.
  69. [05:42:19] <vinay> maybe we should do that with our minds... lol
  70. [05:42:21] <vinay> ha
  71. [05:43:16] <vinay> in Zen the mind is like a Bull/Water Buffalo
  72. [05:44:30] <vinay> I just know that a calm body is a sign the mind is calm, and an upset body is a sign that mind is off track.
  73. [05:45:17] <vinay> sick from disease is a whole other thing.
  74. [05:47:25] <vinay> This being ( a calm body) , that is ( a calm mind) ; from the arising of this, that arises; this not being, that is not; from the cessation of this, that ceases.
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  76. [05:56:24] <heathen_> there is no habit of awareness. if a habit makes  life easier, that is reliance on a dull and sleepy mind. certainly not that i am above habits or  a dull and sleepy mind myself, but im not going to embrace it as anything like a replacement for actually living
  77. [06:03:16] <heathen_> the mind is actually still and quiet is very active, alive, potent, not towards anything in particular, not towards a cause  and the result of conditioning. such a mind is potent because it has ability, free of experience, free of memory, free of knowledge, free of the past, free of time it can look directly into the nature of how things are without distraction
  78. [06:03:38] <heathen_> the mind that is actually still...*
  79. [06:08:38] <vinay> it's energy.
  80. [06:09:08] <heathen_> if one attempts to make awareness a habit then it becomes difficult, tedious and painful. awareness is never so difficult as when one is trying to be aware. awareness is always simple and its rather easy if one cares about something more they care about their own thoughts
  81. [06:09:14] <vinay> the mind is never truly still.
  82. [06:10:04] <heathen_> oh...... you mean your mind is never truly still. because my mind is quite capable of being free the movement of any thought.
  83. [06:10:16] <heathen_> free of the movement
  84. [06:10:52] <heathen_> if ones one is never still and quiet, it means they care about nothing but themself
  85. [06:11:14] <heathen_> if ones mind is never*
  86. [06:11:27] <bananstol> you are in hell little man. and i am the devil
  87. [06:11:30] <vinay> it's a 20W power plant...
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  89. [06:12:10] <heathen_> the still/quiet mind is alert, aware, awake and alive
  90. [06:12:47] <heathen_>  the still/quiet mind is reaching for nothing, searching for nothing, has nothing to gain, nothing to attain and nothing to become.
  91. [06:12:55] <heathen_> both statements say the same thingg
  92. [06:13:23] <vinay> it seems thoughts can make a heaven out of hell and a hell out of heaven.
  93. [06:13:39] <heathen_> its a long life to live caring for nothing but oneself
  94. [06:14:00] <vinay>  the mind is never truly still, but thought come and go...
  95. [06:14:02] <vinay> :)
  96. [06:14:44] <heathen_> it seems more like that a mind chasing thoughts will place life into a bowl of determination of heaven or hell
  97. [06:15:10] <heathen_> what is the mind free of thought but still and quiet?
  98. [06:15:16] <vinay> through "I like" I don't like" The Vedanas
  99. [06:15:39] <heathen_> "like" "dont like" thats thought,
  100. [06:15:41] <vinay> if we want what we don't have and have what we don't want...
  101. [06:15:54] <heathen_> want is thought
  102. [06:15:55] <vinay> same thing as the heaven hell thing...
  103. [06:16:00] <heathen_> dont want is thought
  104. [06:16:03] <vinay> yeah
  105. [06:16:08] <heathen_> heaven and hell is all thought
  106. [06:16:17] <vinay> desire, clinging...becoming...
  107. [06:16:35] <heathen_> desire, clinging, becoming its all thought
  108. [06:16:57] <heathen_>  youve not demonstrated anything of mind free of thought that is other than still and quiet
  109. [06:19:36] <heathen_> still and quiet, awareness listens to wind in trees and doesnt need to think about it
  110. [06:19:48] <heathen_> in the trees*
  111. [06:21:56] <vinay> and wisdom knows when to stop and listen.
  112. [06:34:09] <sowarigpa> hello gents
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  133. [00:00:00] --- Sat Jun  1 2019
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