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- [17:40] Commi [US-E]: I'd explain what Ringil just did there, but nevermind
- [17:41] Wormtongue: Cool
- [17:42] Lord_ZelI: i still dont get this complaint
- [17:42] Lokyar: how?
- [17:42] Lokyar: ok so simple:
- [17:43] Lord_ZelI: yh you had a hard fight, so if you rolled well it could have been a stomp
- you dont know the full difficulty of how itll play out till you play it
- say worm only just won, as the spectures kill a fair few of his guys
- would his rewards be fine then
- [17:43] Lord_ZelI: answer me that
- [17:43] Lokyar: you have people that won and people that lost, the people that won got a disproportionally large amount of rewards compared to the losers, this has the direct result that the losers can essentially never interact with the winners again for the rest of the campaign because that got so many rewards
- [17:44] Wormtongue: So I nerf my next games. Do I raise a complaint because you played a different scenario?
- [17:44] Wormtongue: And might perform better than me
- [17:44] Lokyar: are you willfully being ignorant?
- [17:45] Lokyar: because that has nothing to do with what i just said
- [17:45] Ringil [ENG]: you guys are completely missing the point, do you want a completely op company so no one want to play you?
- [17:45] Lord_ZelI: yh you had a hard fight, so if you rolled well it could have been a stomp
- you dont know the full difficulty of how itll play out till you play it
- say worm only just won, as the spectures kill a fair few of his guys
- would his rewards be fine then
- [17:45] Lokyar: see my above message
- [17:45] Lokyar: that has nothing to do with the problem
- [17:46] Lokyar: the problem was that the rewards are to big thus losers and winners can never interact in the campaign because of the disproportionate power levels
- [17:46] Lord_ZelI: it has everything to do wioth it
- [17:46] Lokyar: the rewards are the issue, not the scenario or who won
- [17:47] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: How about this
- [17:47] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: There will be 3 tiers of missions
- [17:47] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: Each one is static in terms of rewards
- [17:48] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: Standard, medium, and hard
- [17:48] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: How does that sound?
- [17:48] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: That way we can avoid drama like this in the future
- [17:48] Lord_ZelI: the rewards were the same
- [17:48] Lord_ZelI: for basically everyone
- [17:48] Lokyar: not the point
- [17:48] Lord_ZelI: like if he lost
- [17:48] Lokyar: also not true
- [17:48] Lord_ZelI: tyou wouldnt be complaining
- [17:48] Wormtongue: Right lokyar had more of a potential for points
- [17:49] Lord_ZelI: it is true
- [17:49] Lokyar: i would be complaining
- [17:49] Wormtongue: What would your complaint be if I had lost?
- [17:49] Wormtongue: That I lost better than you?
- [17:49] Lokyar: to much power difference
- [17:49] Lokyar: same as my complaint right now
- [17:49] Commi [US-E]: It isn't that you won or lost
- [17:49] Commi [US-E]: It isn't about you
- [17:50] Wormtongue: It is
- [17:50] Lokyar: it isnt
- [17:50] Commi [US-E]: It is about the scaling of rewards
- [17:50] Wormtongue: How is it not? Did this conversation not start with. “Do you want to accept less because you won”
- [17:50] Ringil [ENG]: 'like everyone else who won accepted less'
- [17:51] Ringil [ENG]: because the reward was too great
- [17:52] Commi [US-E]: Incremental growth being the desired philopsohy
- [17:52] Wormtongue: But my reward was less than lokyars potential reward . So how was it too great?
- [17:52] Lord_ZelI: cause he didnt win it
- [17:52] Lokyar: not the point wormtongue
- [17:52] Commi [US-E]: All rewards were too great
- [17:52] Wormtongue: That’s the point.
- [17:52] Wormtongue: Otherwise your crying about losing
- [17:53] Lokyar: ringil is not crying about losing, HE WON
- [17:53] Wormtongue: Ok all rewards were too great. If everyone had won. There wouldn’t be a problem
- [17:53] Wormtongue: In life, some people lose and some win. That’s all, you don’t just give up after one round because you lost.
- [17:53] Wormtongue: It’s the first mission
- [17:54] Lokyar: yes so the rewards for this first mission should be less
- [17:54] Wormtongue: There will be more, and one mission doesn’t determine the outcome of the campaign
- [17:54] Lokyar: yeah, a mission shouldnt determine it, but this one does
- [17:57] Commi [US-E]: All I really want is for the rewards system to be based off of the pre-existing campaign in the book. Because the normal system is designed for appropriate growth per mission.
- [17:58] Lokyar: there is a reason the rewards in the book are 2 additional influence for a win with barely any extra exp and a roll on a table, right now the winner gets 9 additional influence and a fuck ton of extra exp AND an item
- [17:59] Lokyar: and in normal battle companies the winner of the first mission has a sizeable advantage over the loser
- [18:00] Lokyar: with this extra stuff the losers can never play the winners ever again in any pvp event for the rest of the campaign
- [18:00] Lokyar: period
- [18:04] Lord_ZelI: that is so not true
- [18:05] Lokyar: bit of a hyperbole, but essentially you either snowball hard or make it ridiculously hard for loser companies to win or have a fun match
- [18:06] Lokyar: compared to the book where at least there is a chance for the loser to have a fun go at winning against a company that won the first match
- [18:06] Lokyar: so say you keep your 10 influence
- [18:06] Lokyar: what would you spend it on?
- [18:07] Lokyar: and what would your company value be after upgrades and equipment?
- [18:07] Lokyar: upgrade=level ups
- [18:08] Commi [US-E]: The reason this debate started was because Ringil proposed that Wormtongue follow suit with Ringil (another winner) and try and lower the gap that was just created due to the rewards, while still keeping a pretty good advantage considering.
- [18:09] Commi [US-E]: It was never about Wormtongue personally, but correcting some design in the missions by reigning in the winners a tad.
- [18:10] Commi [US-E]: I'll leave it at that and end my participation in this conversation here.
- [18:12] Wormtongue:
- [18:13] Wormtongue: Lokyar said it days ago that it was a winnable scenario. Just rolled poorly
- [18:13] Wormtongue: So because he rolled poorly, I forfeit influence points?
- [18:14] Ringil [ENG]: no, because the reward is too much for everyone!! I also won, but think the reward was inappropriate for the mission I had
- [18:19] Lokyar: If i'd have won i would have forfeited a lot of my gains because i want to be able to compete with others in a reasonably even manner.
- [18:21] Lord_ZelI: i guarentee if we all won or lost this wouldnt exist
- [18:21] Lokyar: That is exactly our point?
- [18:21] Lokyar: essentially at least
- [18:21] Lokyar: the difference between win and lost is to big
- [18:22] Lokyar: if everyone would have won the difference wouldn't be to big for us to compete in a reasonably fun manner if we were to ever meet
- [18:23] Lord_ZelI: its a pve for the most part anyway. Im pretty sure you will catch up by game 5
- [18:25] Lord_ZelI: like if anyone loses their next game and you win
- [18:25] Lord_ZelI: youve caught up
- [18:26] Lokyar: no because the rewards in the next mission are not enough to catch up even if you don't play at all and i win
- [18:26] Lokyar: because the rewards are balanced around the book from this point forward
- [18:26] Lokyar: two counterpoints: 1) The snowball effect exists real real bad in Battle Company, 2) It is quite unlikely for us to make up a gap this big if we rebalance the missions, if you skipped like 2-3 missions of balanced mission we can possibly catch up?
- [18:27] Lokyar: If we rebalance and we keep playing it's unlikely that we would ever catch up
- [18:27] Lord_ZelI: since when has the reward system changed
- [18:28] Lokyar: since we discussed it like a week or so ago?
- [18:28] Lord_ZelI: thats also not true. If you win 2 and they lose 2 youve caught up even if we use book standard
- [18:29] Lokyar: if i win FOUR games and you lose FOUR games i caught up
- [18:29] Lokyar: Which just shows how unbalanced the current system is
- [18:29] Lord_ZelI: Its a majority PVE campaign, so i dont see why it needs to be changed from what it is now.
- [18:30] Lokyar: Me @Commi [US-E] and @Ringil [ENG] just explained that in great detail
- [18:30] Lord_ZelI: where?
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