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  1. [17:40] Commi [US-E]: I'd explain what Ringil just did there, but nevermind
  2. [17:41] Wormtongue: Cool
  3. [17:42] Lord_ZelI: i still dont get this complaint
  4. [17:42] Lokyar: how?
  5. [17:42] Lokyar: ok so simple:
  6. [17:43] Lord_ZelI: yh you had a hard fight, so if you rolled well it could have been a stomp
  7. you dont know the full difficulty of how itll play out till you play it
  8. say worm only just won, as the spectures kill a fair few of his guys
  9. would his rewards be fine then
  10. [17:43] Lord_ZelI: answer me that
  11. [17:43] Lokyar: you have people that won and people that lost, the people that won got a disproportionally large amount of rewards compared to the losers, this has the direct result that the losers can essentially never interact with the winners again for the rest of the campaign because that got so many rewards
  12. [17:44] Wormtongue: So I nerf my next games. Do I raise a complaint because you played a different scenario?
  13. [17:44] Wormtongue: And might perform better than me
  14. [17:44] Lokyar: are you willfully being ignorant?
  15. [17:45] Lokyar: because that has nothing to do with what i just said
  16. [17:45] Ringil [ENG]: you guys are completely missing the point, do you want a completely op company so no one want to play you?
  17. [17:45] Lord_ZelI: yh you had a hard fight, so if you rolled well it could have been a stomp
  18. you dont know the full difficulty of how itll play out till you play it
  19. say worm only just won, as the spectures kill a fair few of his guys
  20. would his rewards be fine then
  21. [17:45] Lokyar: see my above message
  22. [17:45] Lokyar: that has nothing to do with the problem
  23. [17:46] Lokyar: the problem was that the rewards are to big thus losers and winners can never interact in the campaign because of the disproportionate power levels
  24. [17:46] Lord_ZelI: it has everything to do wioth it
  25. [17:46] Lokyar: the rewards are the issue, not the scenario or who won
  26. [17:47] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: How about this
  27. [17:47] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: There will be 3 tiers of missions
  28. [17:47] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: Each one is static in terms of rewards
  29. [17:48] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: Standard, medium, and hard
  30. [17:48] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: How does that sound?
  31. [17:48] Lambert, Lambert, What a Prick: That way we can avoid drama like this in the future
  32. [17:48] Lord_ZelI: the rewards were the same
  33. [17:48] Lord_ZelI: for basically everyone
  34. [17:48] Lokyar: not the point
  35. [17:48] Lord_ZelI: like if he lost
  36. [17:48] Lokyar: also not true
  37. [17:48] Lord_ZelI: tyou wouldnt be complaining
  38. [17:48] Wormtongue: Right lokyar had more of a potential for points
  39. [17:49] Lord_ZelI: it is true
  40. [17:49] Lokyar: i would be complaining
  41. [17:49] Wormtongue: What would your complaint be if I had lost?
  42. [17:49] Wormtongue: That I lost better than you?
  43. [17:49] Lokyar: to much power difference
  44. [17:49] Lokyar: same as my complaint right now
  45. [17:49] Commi [US-E]: It isn't that you won or lost
  46. [17:49] Commi [US-E]: It isn't about you
  47. [17:50] Wormtongue: It is
  48. [17:50] Lokyar: it isnt
  49. [17:50] Commi [US-E]: It is about the scaling of rewards
  50. [17:50] Wormtongue: How is it not? Did this conversation not start with. “Do you want to accept less because you won”
  51. [17:50] Ringil [ENG]: 'like everyone else who won accepted less'
  52. [17:51] Ringil [ENG]: because the reward was too great
  53. [17:52] Commi [US-E]: Incremental growth being the desired philopsohy
  54. [17:52] Wormtongue: But my reward was less than lokyars potential reward . So how was it too great?
  55. [17:52] Lord_ZelI: cause he didnt win it
  56. [17:52] Lokyar: not the point wormtongue
  57. [17:52] Commi [US-E]: All rewards were too great
  58. [17:52] Wormtongue: That’s the point.
  59. [17:52] Wormtongue: Otherwise your crying about losing
  60. [17:53] Lokyar: ringil is not crying about losing, HE WON
  61. [17:53] Wormtongue: Ok all rewards were too great. If everyone had won. There wouldn’t be a problem
  62. [17:53] Wormtongue: In life, some people lose and some win. That’s all, you don’t just give up after one round because you lost.
  63. [17:53] Wormtongue: It’s the first mission
  64. [17:54] Lokyar: yes so the rewards for this first mission should be less
  65. [17:54] Wormtongue: There will be more, and one mission doesn’t determine the outcome of the campaign
  66. [17:54] Lokyar: yeah, a mission shouldnt determine it, but this one does
  67. [17:57] Commi [US-E]: All I really want is for the rewards system to be based off of the pre-existing campaign in the book. Because the normal system is designed for appropriate growth per mission.
  68. [17:58] Lokyar: there is a reason the rewards in the book are 2 additional influence for a win with barely any extra exp and a roll on a table, right now the winner gets 9 additional influence and a fuck ton of extra exp AND an item
  69. [17:59] Lokyar: and in normal battle companies the winner of the first mission has a sizeable advantage over the loser
  70. [18:00] Lokyar: with this extra stuff the losers can never play the winners ever again in any pvp event for the rest of the campaign
  71. [18:00] Lokyar: period
  72. [18:04] Lord_ZelI: that is so not true
  73. [18:05] Lokyar: bit of a hyperbole, but essentially you either snowball hard or make it ridiculously hard for loser companies to win or have a fun match
  74. [18:06] Lokyar: compared to the book where at least there is a chance for the loser to have a fun go at winning against a company that won the first match
  75. [18:06] Lokyar: so say you keep your 10 influence
  76. [18:06] Lokyar: what would you spend it on?
  77. [18:07] Lokyar: and what would your company value be after upgrades and equipment?
  78. [18:07] Lokyar: upgrade=level ups
  79. [18:08] Commi [US-E]: The reason this debate started was because Ringil proposed that Wormtongue follow suit with Ringil (another winner) and try and lower the gap that was just created due to the rewards, while still keeping a pretty good advantage considering.
  80. [18:09] Commi [US-E]: It was never about Wormtongue personally, but correcting some design in the missions by reigning in the winners a tad.
  81. [18:10] Commi [US-E]: I'll leave it at that and end my participation in this conversation here.
  82. [18:12] Wormtongue:
  83.  
  84. [18:13] Wormtongue: Lokyar said it days ago that it was a winnable scenario. Just rolled poorly
  85. [18:13] Wormtongue: So because he rolled poorly, I forfeit influence points?
  86. [18:14] Ringil [ENG]: no, because the reward is too much for everyone!! I also won, but think the reward was inappropriate for the mission I had
  87. [18:19] Lokyar: If i'd have won i would have forfeited a lot of my gains because i want to be able to compete with others in a reasonably even manner.
  88. [18:21] Lord_ZelI: i guarentee if we all won or lost this wouldnt exist
  89. [18:21] Lokyar: That is exactly our point?
  90. [18:21] Lokyar: essentially at least
  91. [18:21] Lokyar: the difference between win and lost is to big
  92. [18:22] Lokyar: if everyone would have won the difference wouldn't be to big for us to compete in a reasonably fun manner if we were to ever meet
  93. [18:23] Lord_ZelI: its a pve for the most part anyway. Im pretty sure you will catch up by game 5
  94. [18:25] Lord_ZelI: like if anyone loses their next game and you win
  95. [18:25] Lord_ZelI: youve caught up
  96. [18:26] Lokyar: no because the rewards in the next mission are not enough to catch up even if you don't play at all and i win
  97. [18:26] Lokyar: because the rewards are balanced around the book from this point forward
  98. [18:26] Lokyar: two counterpoints: 1) The snowball effect exists real real bad in Battle Company, 2) It is quite unlikely for us to make up a gap this big if we rebalance the missions, if you skipped like 2-3 missions of balanced mission we can possibly catch up?
  99. [18:27] Lokyar: If we rebalance and we keep playing it's unlikely that we would ever catch up
  100. [18:27] Lord_ZelI: since when has the reward system changed
  101. [18:28] Lokyar: since we discussed it like a week or so ago?
  102. [18:28] Lord_ZelI: thats also not true. If you win 2 and they lose 2 youve caught up even if we use book standard
  103. [18:29] Lokyar: if i win FOUR games and you lose FOUR games i caught up
  104. [18:29] Lokyar: Which just shows how unbalanced the current system is
  105. [18:29] Lord_ZelI: Its a majority PVE campaign, so i dont see why it needs to be changed from what it is now.
  106. [18:30] Lokyar: Me @Commi [US-E] and @Ringil [ENG] just explained that in great detail
  107. [18:30] Lord_ZelI: where?
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