[23:06] <~Wildbow> "I can respect the man for his enemies." - just came across this term.  It got me thinking.
[23:07] <TheWhiteDuke> Huh. That is an interesting thought.
[23:07] <~Wildbow> Is it a valid/fair line of thought, to respect a man because of the enemies he has?  People perhaps that you loathe or find worth fighting?
[23:08] <TheShadow> "If he has these people gunning for him, he's obviously important"
[23:09] <TheWhiteDuke> Respect is a tricky term, because it can mean a variety of things. But to have "enemies", not just "people who don't like you" but people who are actively expending energy to stop you, implies you're at least doing something significant.
[23:09] <GhostBlooshy> cat asptrophy
[23:10] <Teller> I think it's fair. It's an odd metric to use if you have more direct things you can measure, though, such as their actions and/or character.
[23:10] <@Teruzi> eeeh
[23:10] <@Teruzi> the enemy of my enemy is my ally
[23:10] <@Teruzi> not my friend.
[23:11] <TheWhiteDuke> And yeah - to have enemies, you have to have people who are not only expending energy to stop you, but you also have to be continuing despite their resistance. Otherwise they wouldn't be your enemies, just "the people who stopped you." So you might not respect them as a person, but at least as a threat.
[23:11] <Teller> Then again, I like the phrase "in a fight between X and Y, I'm rooting for the puddles of blood on the ground". Two people that you don't respect can be enemies.
[23:13] <TheWhiteDuke> In fiction, the scale of a character's enemies often tells you something about what the author wants you to feel about the character. If it's a hero, they're more heroic for battling the dragon than the town watch who simply cower. If they're a villain, they're more threatening if they've defeated the Royal Guard single-handed than if they hide away from even civilians.
[23:14] <Teller> There's also a distinction between "respect" and "like" to be made. You can dislike someone while respecting them or some of their qualities.
[23:15] <Teller> Having enemies of a certain caliber and still existing is a respectable thing.
[23:16] <TheWhiteDuke> Yeah. If I think of the people I find most repulsive in the world, I at least have some respect for those that are willing to stand up and fight for those beliefs, as opposed to people who quietly share those beliefs but simply sit on the sidelines.
[23:17] <TheWhiteDuke> The first shows at least some degree of character
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[23:20] <~Wildbow> Hmmm.  Not sure I agree with you on that, Duke.  If I think of someone holding repugnant beliefs against a minority, group, or person unable to defend themselves, and acting on that belief, that isn't more redeemable than them keeping it in quiet reserve.
[23:21] <~Wildbow> I dunno if I can respect someone who is really good at being shitty to others.
[23:22] <Teller> I can't respect it in combination with their foul beliefs, but if I step back and consider their character as a whole, I can respect the specific quality.
09[23:22] <tubes> ^
[23:22] <~Wildbow> Fair.
[23:22] <TheWhiteDuke> Hmm. Maybe it's me blurring the lines in my head of what I mean by "respect".
09[23:22] <tubes> letter from the burmingham jail
[23:23] <Teller> Like a villain with a very clever plan. It would be better if they were dumb, but their intelligence is still impressive to me.
09[23:23] <tubes> the lukewarm moderate is worse for change than the most vile bigot
[23:23] <~Wildbow> Are they, though?  Change isn't necessarily good, and the bigot is changing things for the worse.
[23:23] <~Wildbow> That's not 'better'
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[23:24] <TheWhiteDuke> Even iconic villains, the ones we point to to say "that's what bad is" - they became iconic somehow. Maybe it's inconsistent of me to be drawn towards them for their charisma, or their intellect, or their resilience, but I am.
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[23:24] <bobby_trill> true, but change for the worse is usually made by those moderates who never think twice about what theyre suggesting (eg people complaining about kaepernick's protest, mlk's own peaceful marching, the interruptions of the macys day parade recently)
09[23:25] <tubes> Wildbow: i mean, that's why i cited "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"
[23:25] <TheShadow> Hmm...I just imagined shards sitting in a bar.
04[23:25] <Teller> Not even that, tubes. If my concern is the good of society, then I would like for vile bigots to be quiet and meek.
[23:25] <TheShadow> Due to my own writing sparking my mind.
[23:25] <JENTHULHU> If I may
09[23:26] <tubes> Teller: well, that depends on what you consider the good of society
09[23:26] <tubes> order, or moral justice?
[23:26] <JENTHULHU> might this be veering towards #politics ?
[23:26] <@Teruzi> Not yet!
09[23:26] <tubes> say everyone is the sort of low key, annoying racist
09[23:26] <tubes> "
09[23:26] <tubes> "well, you're one of the good ones"
[23:26] <@Teruzi> well now it kinda is
[23:27] <TheShadow> Yeah.
09[23:27] <tubes> but other than that, you've got an almost just society of the sort we expect
[23:27] <Teller> Ugh, you're going to drag me back into #politics. I just escaped from there.
09[23:27] <tubes> no no, it's a philosophical question
[23:27] <bobby_trill> you're saying that sentence but for racialized people, especially in the US who are navigating that regularly, that's just the norm.
09[23:28] <tubes> i believe my personal politics are well known among server veterans, consider it an abstract question
[23:28] <TheShadow> Anyone got ideas for Blaster powers that could fit a demon aesthetic?
09[23:28] <tubes> bobby_trill: exactly
[23:28] <bobby_trill> tbf wildbow touches on this stuff a lot of the time it's incredibly hard to keep it separated
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[23:28] <bobby_trill> idrk if you can tbh
[23:29] <Teller> Bobby, try not to spell out his full name. It pings (sound alerts) him, and you can imagine how many pings he'd get a day if he didn't ask people not to.
[23:29] <TheWhiteDuke> I think you learn from villains the same way that you learn from heroes - you see the things they did, the effects they had, and you see their downfalls, what mistakes they made. All your heroes have their vices, all your villains have their virtues. The people who have no enemies at all? They have nothing to learn from.
09[23:29] <tubes> hm, well, i can't frame it as well as n0us as a philosophical question
09[23:29] <tubes> but i think you see the order vs morality point
[23:29] <TheShadow> Would this be better in #politics?
[23:29] <bobby_trill> again no
09[23:30] <tubes> is the ruckus with the moral ground, if all you get is the moral high ground - if it has no other mpact on your day to day life than the occassional part where someone says something that makes you feel vaguely uncomfortable
[23:30] <@Teruzi> I feel uncomfortable when people talk so
[23:30] <@Teruzi> Oh wait
[23:30] <@Teruzi> that's not it
[23:31] <Tiktalik_> hey guys
[23:31] <@Teruzi> Okay, I don't think the conversation is necessarily political
[23:31] <Tiktalik_> i figured out a better system for numbers
[23:31] <@Teruzi> as long as we can keep politics out. Be philosophical about it, peeps.
[23:31] <Tiktalik_> so, right now, our base ten system is terrible, it's completely arbitrary
[23:31] <Tiktalik_> continuations are confusing and horrible
[23:31] <TheWhiteDuke> I mean, I have ten fingers, but go on.
[23:31] <@Teruzi> As you all know, that has nothing to do with reality.
09[23:32] <tubes> these people act on it in no other manner than making you vaguely annoyed and uncomfortable on a daily basis
[23:32] <Teller> Alright, Teruzi. Thanks.
[23:32] <@Teruzi> (too bad n0us is not around for that.)
[23:32] <Tiktalik_> especially around the point of twelve to thirteen
[23:32] <Tiktalik_> so instead of 10 numbers, 5 numbers and 0
[23:32] <@Teruzi> wait tictac
[23:32] <@Teruzi> You don't like base 10? but why?
[23:32] <Tiktalik_> each number corresponds to a vowel sound- hh, ey, ee, ah, oh, oo
09[23:32] <tubes> but if you were to try to take more aggressive political action to bring attention to this fact, maybe change minds
[23:33] <Tiktalik_> so to pronounce a number, you just vocalize that sequence of vowels- momentary break for two of the same number in a row
09[23:33] <tubes> it WOULD cause problems, even if only in the vaguest of sense - people taking time off of work, arguments
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09[23:34] <tubes> speak of the devil
[23:34] <TheWhiteDuke> So, what we would represent in our system as 125 would be "HH HH HH"?
06[23:35] * @Thalia sprinkles salt around n0us
[23:35] <TheWhiteDuke> Wait, that would just be HH OO OO
[23:35] <@Teruzi> I was just talking smack about philosophy, n0us.
[23:35] <bobby_trill> i feel like the statement whirlboop said is true only in the sense that you could have a develop politic and still be a completely insufferable, annoying, or merely incompatible person to be around
[23:35] <TheWhiteDuke> I want 155 I think?