16:25 < vokoda> which program sends information like terminal size over an openssh connecton?
16:25 < exarkun> vokoda: which program?
16:26 < glyph> exarkun: I think he means, is it bash's job, or sshd's job, or the kernel's job
16:26 < glyph> exarkun: and I'm slightly curious too
16:26 < foom> the kernel sends a SIGWINCH to ssh
16:26 < SpComb> perhaps ssh has a tty?
16:26 < vokoda> glyph: yes, that's what I meant
16:26 < foom> ssh sends it over the ssh connection to the sshd
16:26 < foom> the sshd configures the tty on the remote end, and that results in a SIGWINCH going to the remote bash
16:27 < glyph> foom: really, it's the kernel?  It's not like xterm?
16:28 < exarkun> when you resize the xterm, it configures the tty
16:28 < exarkun> that results in the local SIGWINCH
16:28 < foom> xterm sets the tty's rows/cols.
16:28 < exarkun> from the kernel
16:28 < foom> the kernel sends SIGWINCH when that happens.
16:29 < glyph> what's the API for xterm's side of things?  some ioctls?
16:29 < exarkun> ioctl TIOCGWINSZ
16:29 < glyph> heh
16:29 < glyph> in 20 minutes I maybe even would have thought to look at that
16:30 < exarkun> actually that's for getting the size, sorry
16:30 < glyph> Does the kernel actually have an idea of what characters are on the screen of a given PTY?
16:30 < exarkun> I meant TIOCSWINSZ obviously.
16:30 < glyph> exarkun: obviously, it was implied.
16:30 < foom> nope
16:30 < foom> it sends them across and forgets
16:30 < glyph> foom: OK, I thought not.
16:30 < glyph> I just didn't realize that it actually remembered the height and width.
16:30 < foom> stty -a
16:30 < glyph> Although my brief encounter with TIOCGWINSZ should have taught me that.
16:30 < foom> it remembers all sorts of crap
16:30 < exarkun> staaaaate
16:31 < vokoda> thanks foom, interesting
16:31  * glyph blinks
16:31 < glyph> foom: thanks
16:31 < foom> It's rather astounding how much kernel crap is involved with displaying a bash in an xterm window.
16:31 < glyph> foom: Less kernel crap than displaying cmd.com in a ... window, if you can call it that
16:31 < exarkun> video memory region
16:32 < glyph> (sorry I know it's actually cmd.exe it's just _sooooo_ busted)
16:32 < glyph> exarkun: I think in win7 it might actually be a window instead of a pointer to some kernel memory
16:33 < foom> yes, windows is even awesomer. What with the ANSI terminal emulation also being in the kernel and all.
16:34 < glyph> yeah, windows hella knows what characters are in your terminal
16:34 < glyph> and I think in your scrollback buffer, even
16:35 < exarkun> because they're not really in your terminal
16:35 < exarkun> they're in cmd.exe and you just get to look at them sometimes
16:36 < foom> Are they really in cmd.exe? Somehow it can also output to a pipe.
16:37 < foom> Does libc loads up ansi.sys into the cmd.exe's process space if it's outputting to a terminal?
16:37 < exarkun> I guess I probably don't know how it really works anymore
16:37 < exarkun> but I think as soon as pipes are involved, everything changes
16:38 < exarkun> that is, you have to ask for stdio in a program
16:38 < glyph> no, you need command.com to use ansi.sys
16:38 < glyph> cmd.exe does colors some other way
16:38 < exarkun> and when you do that, all the rules change



<zykes-> how is PB differencing from say AMP ?
<exarkun> In a lot of ways					        [17:34]
<zykes-> mains are ?
<glyph> AMP is simpler to implement, easier to implement cross-language data
	structures, possibly more secure (although that is a complicated
	conversation), probably simpler to optimize		        [17:35]
<glyph> PB is easier to implement complex state-sharing protocols with, easier
	to address individual objects with in a large object graph
								        [17:36]
<zykes-> guess i'll keep with AMP then :)
<glyph> I generally tend to recommend AMP			        [17:37]
<exarkun> I don't know if there's any reason for new development to use PB.
<zykes-> why not exarkun ? :p
<exarkun> AMP does enough, and simpler is always better.	        [17:38]
<zykes-> can i use amp with ssl ? 				        [17:39]
<exarkun> yes
<zykes-> kk